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capncrunch21

Co-op play: two things that need to be toned down

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Hi Dev Team,

 

There are two things about Co-op play currently that really annoy me.


 

1) "Last Ditch" programming of bots. When the AI knows a ship is about to die, it launches everything it can. Planes, torpedoes, shells, you name it. More than once I have seen this "Last Ditch" programming allow the AI to cheat. Torpedoes launched off of dead ships. Planes launching from aircraft carriers that were on fire, blew up, then the planes take off. Shells from guns firing before their reload times have come up just to get that last little bit of damage (usually with perfect aim at the lowest health player ship), etc., etc.


 

2) Destroyer hate. Okay, I get it. The AI should make DDs a priority target. But when the entire enemy bot team sails toward a player DD - even though it was never spotted or detected while they firing at the rest of the player team - simply so they can spot it as quickly as possible (usually through planes) is insane. Then once that poor player DD is spotted the ENTIRE bot team will open up with everything they have to the exclusion of ALL else. This does not make for fun gameplay for the DD driver (and usually very few points).


 

I understand that the AI has to do certain things, but for heavens sake, the two above items need to be toned down somewhat. Especially in the lower tiers.


 

(I writing this after a Tier 2 game in a DD where the entire bot team was chasing and firing at me. Tier TWO - seriously??)

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Yeah the destroyer hate needs a little toning down, it almost makes DD's unplayable in coop unless you really abuse the ai, like sitting in the back and waiting for your team to thin out the enemy considerably.

 

This hoses your team for your personal benefit, not a great way to work a team based game.

 

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LOLz.


 

Low tier is easy mode.


 

When you make contact with the enemy, pop your smoke and sit in it. The enemy will head toward you. Now use your torpedoes and guns to kill them before they do.

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I've been playing a fair bit of CO-OP lately and have definitely noticed some fishy things with bots.  Guns on BBs turning a full 180º in seconds, BBs firing every 10 seconds or so...  I haven't seen it happen often, but it definitely happens.  As far as the DD situation goes though, I've never had much trouble.  If you know what the bots are going to do, just adjust your play accordingly.

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I've experienced the after death torps, what appears to be quicker shell reload, and lack of shell dispersion (or have buffed accuracy) from bots ships.

 

what takes the cake is repeatedly watching ships dodge torps from 2-3k away. Real players cannot dodge like that. IE: I launched torps from my ATL towards a TX at 3k. He turned and dodged them all. Again, a TX!!! around 3k. I can't steer a brick from 60km torps @ 3km out and dodge them all.


 

They changed the mechanics way back in 5.12 and since then, even I have been growing suspect. But that's just me and MY "observations and experiences"...

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I've experienced the after death torps, what appears to be quicker shell reload, and lack of shell dispersion (or have buffed accuracy) from bots ships.

 

what takes the cake is repeatedly watching ships dodge torps from 2-3k away. Real players cannot dodge like that. IE: I launched torps from my ATL towards a TX at 3k. He turned and dodged them all. Again, a TX!!! around 3k. I can't steer a brick from 60km torps @ 3km out and dodge them all.

 

 

They changed the mechanics way back in 5.12 and since then, even I have been growing suspect. But that's just me and MY "observations and experiences"...

 

The computer is aware as soon as you launch torps, even if it cant see them, it can see them.

 

Also the computer knows where the DD's are, even before they are spotted and charges them. The best thing to do is hide behind your teamates and let them take all the hits, effective but not fun for me or my teamates.

 

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I've never noticed anything superhuman from the bots other than their ability to smell a torp when it hits the water, but you can counter that by hitting X after the line up the shot but before you launch. They'll sail right into them unless someone else tries to torp them while targeting them and tips them off.

 

Keep in mind that the AI does everything instantly. Are you sure planes launched from a burning carrier, or did they launch from a carrier that just used damcon but whose fire graphics hadn't gone out yet? Things are going to sometimes look weird since there's no human reaction time between issued commands, plus there's no double dose of lag. Bot AI run on the server, so unlike players whose actions move from their client to the server and then to your client, AI just execute on the server itself and then it gets fed to you. Which could lead to thinking they launched torps after death, when they actually launched them just before. 

 

Edit: As for the ramming, yes, that's stupid. I hate friendly bots for that. Higher tier co-op often boils down to how successfully your friendly bots remove enemy bots in their suicide attempts. 

Edited by TTK_Aegis

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Bots should give a seminar on how to torpedo-beat. They are masters at it.

 

Bots are capping your only base and you are about to lose? No problem. Show yourself in a DD at max range. They see you they chase you. Forget about capping. Let's all go for the DD!

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Bots should give a seminar on how to torpedo-beat. They are masters at it.

 

Bots are capping your only base and you are about to lose? No problem. Show yourself in a DD at max range. They see you they chase you. Forget about capping. Let's all go for the DD!

 

They are aware of when you fire torpedos, something players arent, they can guess, but the bots know when they are fired and start dodging. So essentially they have infinite torpedo sighting range.

 

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You're also more prone to detonation from my experience. I've played less Coop but can say with certainty I've detonated more to Bot guns than any other. They are capable of what seems 'impossible' at times, not always but sometimes.

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Things to change:

 

1. Bots always cit in high tier games. Very tired of getting impossible cits by bots.

2. Stop using maps like Two Brothers and Shatter, where it is possible that one side sees only a couple of ships.

3. The DD hunt and pursuit, which not makes life hell for the DD driver but also moves ships to one side of the map so many players have nothing to shoot at. 

4. Bot suicide -- bots kill other in opening minutes, leaving the human players with nothing to shoot at. 

5. Green bots torping green bots. Only red torps should harm humans, all other torps, including bot on bot torps, should do no harm. Time to end the stupid bot suicide programming.

6. Bot's psychic ability to spot torps. 

7. Being the only human. Set a minimum of 2 or 3 humans, and relax the 30 second requirement in the MM.

8. Matching ship for ship. Just match tier for tier, so my Bismarck can see Amagi, North Carolina, or Tirpitz, instead of just Bismarcks.

 

 

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Bots, relaxed atmosphere, and more or less certain fun time are the main rewards of co-op. I'm not expecting WG to do anything about these soon, as they mentioned optimizations and hotkeys and additional settings coming in near future.

 

Just deal with those quirks in the meantime.

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Even with all this going against me, and playing m mostly DDs, I have a 98% win rate in coop. Hard to justify nerfing bots.

 

It's easy to win in co-op. That's not the point of these posts. The issue is that these things are needless and make Co-op less fun to play, yet can be easily changed.
Edited by Taichunger
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No excuse having anything less than a 95% WR in Easy-Mode, yet some still want the bots to be nerfed.

 

:fishpalm:

 

 

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No excuse having anything less than a 95% WR in Easy-Mode, yet some still want the bots to be nerfed.

 

:fishpalm:

 

 

 

Computer might actually be able to win more games if it didnt chase the player DD's around the map like something out of benny hill..... cue yakety sax.

 

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Computer might actually be able to win more games if it didnt chase the player DD's around the map like something out of benny hill..... cue yakety sax.

 

 

Because hyperbole is a thing.

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Planes launching from aircraft carriers that were on fire, blew up, then the planes take off

 

You sure the takeoff animation didn't start before fire/sinking? If that's the case, it just goes on no matter what happens to the carrier and airplanes take off. It's the same way for human players. Incidentally, that's why you always auto-target with a squad that's taking off your carrier as you're about to go down. I've gotten a few "just a flesh wound" achievements that way.

 

PS Also, co-op is already really, really, really easy. Why do you want to make it easier? If you want no competition, just load up training room with enemy ships that are not allowed to shoot. There you go, 100% win rate.

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You sure the takeoff animation didn't start before fire/sinking? If that's the case, then the same thing happens even for human players. Incidentally, that's why you always auto-target with a squad that's taking off your carrier as you're about to go down. I've gotten a few "just a flesh wound" achievements that way.

 

PS Also, co-op is already really, really, really easy. Why do you want to make it easier? If you want no competition, just load up training room with enemy ships that are not allowed to shoot. There you go, 100% win rate.

 

Some of these dont result in easier, just more enjoyable.

 

Chasing the DD's around, focus firing and knowing where they are before being spotted, can actually be abused by a player who sits behind the battleships and just watches the computer ai, walk into a wall of guns. But the player doesnt get much fun or experience themselves.

 

There is a difference between harder and easier, and just plain bad programming.

 

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There is a difference between harder and easier, and just plain bad programming.

 

 

 

Do you write code?  Perhaps you can contact the devs and suggest some specific improvements to their work.

 

In seriousness, I've played more than 1500 Co-ops, and at no point did I ever feel like the AI were performing advantageously in any way.  The AI is never good.  Ever.  The rare match lost to bots was becasue the human players messed up bad enough to lose to bots, not becasue the bots played a good match.

 

If anything, the bots need a buff.

 

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Do you write code?  Perhaps you can contact the devs and suggest some specific improvements to their work.

 

In seriousness, I've played more than 1500 Co-ops, and at no point did I ever feel like the AI were performing advantageously in any way.  The AI is never good.  Ever.  The rare match lost to bots was becasue the human players messed up bad enough to lose to bots, not becasue the bots played a good match.

 

If anything, the bots need a buff.

 

 

No but as someone who plays ALOT of mmo's and I mean alot.

 

I can see that having the entire bot army chasing the DD's is not going to be fun and engaging for either the DD player or the players who wind up chasing the bots.

 

 

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No but as someone who plays ALOT of mmo's and I mean alot.

 

I can see that having the entire bot army chasing the DD's is not going to be fun and engaging for either the DD player or the players who wind up chasing the bots.

 

 

 

Playing a game is not even in the same universe as programming an AI. Just because you've played A LOT of MMO it doesn't mean you intrinsicly know what is easy and what is hard to program nor what is good and what is bad programming. Is the bot AI excution flawed? Yeah I would agree with that but If you think a piece of code is bad, I'd like to see you do better. It's not fair to judge something when you yourself have no idea how hard it is to do the same thing.

 

Having said that, I'm sure they are well aware of these issues with the AI, such as chasing DDs. These things have been brought up repeatedly since launch and we know there will be a PVE re-vamp coming in 2017 so just be patient and see what they come up with. 

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I can see that having the entire bot army chasing the DD's is not going to be fun and engaging for either the DD player or the players who wind up chasing the bots.

 

 

You do know what hyperbole is, right?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Kuckoo

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