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Wilford_Brim1y

Split tree for Cruisers

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So we've seen the japan dd tree split and the Russian dd will split next year. Can we see a split for ca for any nation? Just a split for heavy and light ca would be a good idea or am I just hoping for something that wont happen. What do you guys think good idea or bad?

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Please stop calling all cruisers CAs and calling CLs "Light CAs" for clarity's sake. CL is light cruiser, CA is armored or heavy cruiser. CL in this game includes scout cruisers and for the most part protected cruisers like the Aurora. Within this game the main divide is gun caliber.

 

The USN will almost surely see a CL-CA split at T7 with the Cleveland being moved to probably T8 of the CL line and getting it's actual specs. Worcester will be the tier 10, unless they decide it's too weak and make a super-Worcester T10.

 

Britain will like get a partial CA line tiers 5-7 or 6-8. Hawkins, York, and County.

 

Japan could get a partial CL line especially if their are some more designs out there. Agano and Oyodo could definitely be used.

 

Edited by ckupf
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Depends on the nation, and how far WG is willing to go into paper territory. Talking purely in terms of cruisers, the USN can easily handle a split with a main CA line hitting tier X and a CL line going up to tier IX, where Worcester actually would blend nicely back into the main line, and the Des Moines.

 

The British currently have none of their heavy cruisers, so that's an easy line splitting at tier V with Hawkins (the genesis for the "Heavy Cruiser" as we know it), and going up to tier VII or VIII without touching paper... but like their CL line, you'd definitely need paper for tier IX and X... bc honestly I don't think you'd be able to blend them back into the CL line the way one could with, say, the Americans or Japanese.

 

Japan's another big one. They have two other classes comparable to Kuma (the Nagara and Sendai classes), so you could easy start a split down at tier IV, with Agano at tier V, then either Oyodo or Agano-Kai as a tier VI... I'm not familiar enough with Japanese CL designs to say what could go at tier VII, but the tier VIII could easily be the Mogami. This means you continue with the Japanese 155mm gun until tier VIII, where you swap over the the 8in gun while playing Mogami. From Mogami, you rejoin the main line with Ibuki at tier IX, the successor to the Mogami class. You could then replace Mogami's place in the CA line with the Takao.

 

That's really it, however. Italy perhaps could manage a short one, but if it went beyond tier VI or VII it would require lots of paper, so I'd be inclined to say it's doubtful, especially when you consider WG recently shot down any hopes for German or Russian CV lines, for that very reason... France, meanwhile, I have no idea, but I'm sure someone else might know more in that area.

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RN only gets to tier 7 with real ships, Hawkins 5, York 6, County 7 - after that you're looking at 15,000t 9x 8" (1940) at 8, 17,500t 9x 8" (1943) [both using a newer, better 8" gun than York and County], and 22,000t 12x 9.2" aka a British Moskva

 

IJN gets tricky because Sendai is basically a Japanese Emerald and works at 5, but Agano and Oyodo have way fewer guns than any of their CL competitors have at tier 6 (6 v 8, 9, 9, +whatever the Cleveland replacement has) and 7 (6 v 9, 12, 12, probably Brooklyn/St.Louis w/ 15). Agano-kai with 8 guns becomes a Japanese Leander that's fine for tier 6, but then that cuts Agano and Oyodo out completely. Beyond that I'm not sure there even is anything except for initial production Mogami.

 

USN is pretty easy, apart from finding a new tier 6 CL, which has apparently troubled WG greatly. The US CA/CL split has been 'coming soon' for over a year now, and the last time I heard anything it was being held up by the lack of a suitable candidate for a tier 6 CL.

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Depends on the nation, and how far WG is willing to go into paper territory. Talking purely in terms of cruisers, the USN can easily handle a split with a main CA line hitting tier X and a CL line going up to tier IX, where Worcester actually would blend nicely back into the main line, and the Des Moines.

 

The British currently have none of their heavy cruisers, so that's an easy line splitting at tier V with Hawkins (the genesis for the "Heavy Cruiser" as we know it), and going up to tier VII or VIII without touching paper... but like their CL line, you'd definitely need paper for tier IX and X... bc honestly I don't think you'd be able to blend them back into the CL line the way one could with, say, the Americans or Japanese.

 

Japan's another big one. They have two other classes comparable to Kuma (the Nagara and Sendai classes), so you could easy start a split down at tier IV, with Agano at tier V, then either Oyodo or Agano-Kai as a tier VI... I'm not familiar enough with Japanese CL designs to say what could go at tier VII, but the tier VIII could easily be the Mogami. This means you continue with the Japanese 155mm gun until tier VIII, where you swap over the the 8in gun while playing Mogami. From Mogami, you rejoin the main line with Ibuki at tier IX, the successor to the Mogami class. You could then replace Mogami's place in the CA line with the Takao.

 

That's really it, however. Italy perhaps could manage a short one, but if it went beyond tier VI or VII it would require lots of paper, so I'd be inclined to say it's doubtful, especially when you consider WG recently shot down any hopes for German or Russian CV lines, for that very reason... France, meanwhile, I have no idea, but I'm sure someone else might know more in that area.

 

I absolutely agree...The reality is that we could see that the separate CL/CA lines don't both have to end up with a Tier X ship work in WOWs.  Unless the current meta changes and introduces better CV play and then CL's playing the role they were designed to do...the value of a CL at Tier X seems a bit odd to me - especially with the Tier X DDs basically being a hybrid DD/CL with the Russians and the Germans.  Right now even having the 6" gun armed Brit CL's at Tier X are artificially powerful in my opinion.  They had a similar format in the old Navyfield game where the CL lines sometimes only went up to the Tier 8 and then you switch over to the CA line for Tier 9/10.

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I absolutely agree...The reality is that we could see that the separate CL/CA lines don't both have to end up with a Tier X ship work in WOWs.  Unless the current meta changes and introduces better CV play and then CL's playing the role they were designed to do...the value of a CL at Tier X seems a bit odd to me - especially with the Tier X DDs basically being a hybrid DD/CL with the Russians and the Germans.  Right now even having the 6" gun armed Brit CL's at Tier X are artificially powerful in my opinion.  They had a similar format in the old Navyfield game where the CL lines sometimes only went up to the Tier 8 and then you switch over to the CA line for Tier 9/10.

 

Exactly, and I doubt, beyond Minotaur, Britain's tier X CL, we'll see any other CL get that high, the closest being the American Worcester-class, which I would put at tier IX.

 

Most of the CL lines or sublines do blend well back into the CA line, Britain being the exception because of their special AP flavor.

The American Worcester is a very smooth upgrade to the Des Moines.at tier X, and the Japanese CLs, as I mentioned, blend back into the CAs well through Mogami.

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I didn't see any mention of german cruisers.  Are there any plans to deviate the line to something more torptacular or torpendous?   Or just something that isnt a AP spam bot?  Love germans maybe the best but I cant remember the last time I used a torp in a german cruiser.

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Mogami would be the perfect place to cross over given the options with its main guns... but I would see Mogami remaining as a CL and then the cross over would be something into the Atago/Takao/Maya range.  I think introducing the AA heavy Maya would be a really cool addition to the cruiser line...versus have the AA function being dictated by Captain skills.  

 

there's a ton of options with the Brits, Japanese and Americans...not as much flexibility with the Germans unless you introduce the complication of the "Armored Cruiser" line...then we could get something like the WW1 Blucher as a ship in game (which would be cool) - however, it's pretty hard to balance those ships in the current cruiser model.

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I would really love to see the CL line for US cruisers we really need a good counter to Destroyers since British CLs didnt get HE rounds. I was really wishing for them to be a counter to DDs as the game really is missing this aspect and with destroyer leaders entering the game I really think that is going to be needed. Its also one of the reasons i think that they removed the Atlanta from the in game tree as I think they may be reclassifying it as a Destroyer leader.

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I didn't see any mention of german cruisers.  Are there any plans to deviate the line to something more torptacular or torpendous?   Or just something that isnt a AP spam bot?  Love germans maybe the best but I cant remember the last time I used a torp in a german cruiser.

 

The Germans really didn't have much in the way of cruisers, so they haven't enough material for another line of any sorts... All Germany is likely to ever get on top of what they have now is a battlecruiser line, and perhaps some more DDs...

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RN only gets to tier 7 with real ships, Hawkins 5, York 6, County 7 - after that you're looking at 15,000t 9x 8" (1940) at 8, 17,500t 9x 8" (1943) [both using a newer, better 8" gun than York and County], and 22,000t 12x 9.2" aka a British Moskva

 

IJN gets tricky because Sendai is basically a Japanese Emerald and works at 5, but Agano and Oyodo have way fewer guns than any of their CL competitors have at tier 6 (6 v 8, 9, 9, +whatever the Cleveland replacement has) and 7 (6 v 9, 12, 12, probably Brooklyn/St.Louis w/ 15). Agano-kai with 8 guns becomes a Japanese Leander that's fine for tier 6, but then that cuts Agano and Oyodo out completely. Beyond that I'm not sure there even is anything except for initial production Mogami.

 

USN is pretty easy, apart from finding a new tier 6 CL, which has apparently troubled WG greatly. The US CA/CL split has been 'coming soon' for over a year now, and the last time I heard anything it was being held up by the lack of a suitable candidate for a tier 6 CL.

 

​They would almost certainly need a paper design for a US T6 cruiser. The US pretty much immediately went from Omaha to 10,000 ton designs for CLs and CAs. They never built anything that fits into the T6 range. Look how they had to mutilate Cleveland to force her in there.

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​They would almost certainly need a paper design for a US T6 cruiser. The US pretty much immediately went from Omaha to 10,000 ton designs for CLs and CAs. They never built anything that fits into the T6 range. Look how they had to mutilate Cleveland to force her in there.

 

Fortunately, there is an easy fix, as there's plenty of paper designs in-between, such as the proto-brookyln designs

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The Germans really didn't have much in the way of cruisers, so they haven't enough material for another line of any sorts... All Germany is likely to ever get on top of what they have now is a battlecruiser line, and perhaps some more DDs...

 

Well, supposedly there's enough paperwork around to make a line out of Panzerschiff designs, giving Germany a light-into-heavy cruiser line, and a heavier heavy cruiser line, as opposed to the heavy and light alternative lines of the others, but there'd be a fair bit of gymnastics involved.

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Well, supposedly there's enough paperwork around to make a line out of Panzerschiff designs, giving Germany a light-into-heavy cruiser line, and a heavier heavy cruiser line, as opposed to the heavy and light alternative lines of the others, but there'd be a fair bit of gymnastics involved.

 

It depends on how much paper would be in then versus built ships... Judging by what we've got already, WG won't make a line in WoWs over 50% paper

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It depends on how much paper would be in then versus built ships... Judging by what we've got already, WG won't make a line in WoWs over 50% paper

 

 

and are even less inclined given how people have howled for their favorite ship everytime a papership has come out. paper lines I'd expect to not see until after the french and itlians at the earliest

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and are even less inclined given how people have howled for their favorite ship everytime a papership has come out. paper lines I'd expect to not see until after the french and itlians at the earliest

 

Well, don't forget they outright said no to a Soviet or German CV line on the basis of them need to many paper ships. If that's the case, i think he same will be true for France and Italy.

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I personal think that Germans could get a light cruiser line as this post by the user 

Destroyer_Fuyuzuki :http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/102347-german-light-cruisers-extended-%E2%80%8B-luetzow-1939-and-eendracht/#1

explain the idea and the ships that could fit into this split, it seem very interesting and cool.

 

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​They would almost certainly need a paper design for a US T6 cruiser. The US pretty much immediately went from Omaha to 10,000 ton designs for CLs and CAs. They never built anything that fits into the T6 range. Look how they had to mutilate Cleveland to force her in there.

 

Either Pensacola or New Orleans could arguably fit at tier 6, if they were nerfed to more closely resemble the historical ships. Both those ships had half-inch (13mm) hulls, which would make them unable to bow-tank, and quite vulnerable to small-caliber HE in game. Both ships had far slower turrets IRL than they do in game, and due to the close placement of the Pensacola's guns, she had battleship-like dispersion. Neither ship could just be moved down without changes, but they are both pretty significantly buffed as they are. Heck, you could probably just bump both of them down a tier and leave them completely unchanged, including letting the NO keep it's radar -- both of those ships are underperforming by that much.

 

Wichita would make a good tier 7 CA (it was basically a New Orleans with a sturdier hull and single 5"/38 guns in place of the 5"/25s), or tier 8 with some buffs to it's hull as compared to the real ship. Northampton with radar already sits at tier 7 as the Indianapolis; it could be a tier 6 ship without the radar.

 

The paper ships would likely be needed at tier 9 for CAs, and either 9 or 10 for CLs. Alternately the line could be partially split, with the Worcester sitting at tier 9 and no tier 9 CA, and the DesMoines being tier 10 with no tier 10 CL.

 

USN CAs should go:

  • Pensacola at tier 5 or 6
  • New Orleans tier 6 or 7
  • Wichita tier 7 or 8
  • Baltimore tier 8 or 9
  • DesMoines tier 10

 

CLs would go:

  • Omaha tier 4 or 5 (as it is currently underperforming and the Phoenix is a paper ship, tier 4 might be more appropriate)
  • Brooklyn tier 7
  • Cleveland tier 8
  • (Fargo at tier 9, but that's a stretch since it's basically a Cleveland)
  • Worcester at tier 9 or 10.

 

IRL, the USN light cruiser line split off the heavy cruisers, so I don't see why it can't in game. Let the entire line switch from CL to CA at tier 5 or 6, and then start the branch at tier 7.

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Pensacola would be far to strong at tier V or VI, and same with New Orleans at tier VII.

Just because a ship isn't doing well at it's own tier, doesn't mean you can just drop it a tier and it'll be OK. Do that, and they'll be OP, possibly the only exception being New Orleans if it loses the RoF boost and all the extra modules and consumables of tier VIII.

 

While Omaha could use some help, the line is fine to tier V.

 

Then it should split, with two tier VI ships. The first, leading to the CA line, is the proto-Pensacola, with only 8 guns instead of 10. The tier VII... A Portland class could work, possibly a Northampton (frankly, Pensacola would do fine as a tier VII if her detection was lowered, that's what kills the ship).

Tier VIII should be Wichita, which then leads to Baltimore(IX) and finally Des Moines at tier X.

 

The CL line, starting at tier VI, would begin with the proto-Brookyln. This would lead I to the Brooklyn itself at tier VII, after which comes the Cleveland(VIII), and then finally at tier IX the Worcester, which would then belmd back into the CA line as you'd go from Worcester to Des Moines.

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Juneau, tier 6?

 

Yes we have the Flint, but currently as a ranked rewards, which is under the Oakland Subclass of Cruisers, however you certainly could make a case for an All Gun cruiser at tier 6, ofcourse the playstyle would be similar to the Cleve now, passive, screening, and escort. We all know we want our bbq chicken, given the 5/38's. :P.

 

While the Juneau was essentially a cutdown, more AA oriented version of the Brat-lanta. The decisions for AA armament would be entirely up to WG as for an All-Gun Torpedo Less Tier 6 with seemingly underpowered guns, but overpowering volume of firepower.

 

my other suggestions would be proto-brooks like stated above or the Post-Omaha quad 6" turret design

 

edit:

 

gonna add my quote from the cleveland thread here.

 

We know that WG doesn't want to differentiate the role of heavy cruisers and light cruisers, despite certain navies describing otherwise. So they just expect a hack job of a cruiser line that was left in from Beta to perform as well as better structured newer lines, even though the player stats say otherwise. I mean if it were a perfect world with a perfect naval arcade game, there would be a combination of light and heavy cruisers because escort, screening, and anti-destroyer light cruisers existed alongside heavy cruisers who were more specific to the roles of armored fire support, naval bombardment, and added AA support. The only role we could certainly say that the two had in common were screening (especially in the case of USN carrier operations), but they were both very different classifications of ships.

 

It's weird I'm skeptical to almost say it but certain nations had Light Cruisers specifically designed for taking out light vessels such as subs or dd's, advanced scouting roles, or defending against air attacks, especially when naval tactics began to change after 1941/1942. Where as Heavy Cruisers were more designed to take out armored vessels while getting to battle quickly and getting out, then evolving into a more advanced fire support/screen role.

Edited by MVPBluntman

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​They would almost certainly need a paper design for a US T6 cruiser. The US pretty much immediately went from Omaha to 10,000 ton designs for CLs and CAs. They never built anything that fits into the T6 range. Look how they had to mutilate Cleveland to force her in there.

I'm not sure. I feel like the USS Wichita or the USS Augusta would be a better trainer for the USS Pensacola, since they were both heavy cruisers. The Pensacola gets more 8 inch guns than the Wichita, but the Wichita has better armor everywhere (Augusta falls somewhere in-between). In addition, the Pensacola would probably have better gun-handling for the 8 inch guns, because the Wichita was older. Both were very important ships, the Pensacola getting a grand total of 13 battle stars for her service in the Pacific, and Wichita fought in Operation Torch, the Naval Battle of Casablanca (where she squared-off against Jean Bart), screened the Fast Carrier Task Force, assisted with the sinking of Chiyoda, and provided heavy shore bombardment at Okinawa.

 

What I would like to see more than simply "split cruiser lines," would be split cruiser classes: Light and Heavy Cruisers. Light Cruisers would have more favorable AAA stats, smaller, faster guns, and get access to the defensive fire consumable at Tier 6, while heavy cruisers would have larger, harder-hitting guns, usually better armor, and spotting aircraft or Hydroacoustic Search at T6 (I remember that one of the complaints about Pensacola was her poor range compared to her detection range).

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I pointed this out to friends earlier, but whats the point of a split when the tactics for the ships will be the exact same as the currently are? Long range HE spam while hiding in smoke. Not exactly a game changer of any kind here...

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57 minutes ago, SeaKnight_1990 said:

The split for the USN cruiser branch just got announced today.

Yep.  Pensacola will be at Tier VI, New Orleans Tier at VII, Baltimore Tier at VIII, and Buffalo added at Tier IX with Des Moines at top for the CA line.  A new line added with Dallas at Tier VI, Helena at Tier VII, Cleveland moved to Tier VIII in this line, and Seattle and Worcester added at Tiers IX and X, respectively, for the CL line.

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