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tankkiller123453

Admiral Graf Spee and ship classification

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Should Admiral Graf Spee really should be in the German cruiser line ???

Here is the reason :

Admiral Graf Spee was a so called  pocket battleship (meaning stronger than most faster ships and faster than most stronger ships.)

She has 11inch guns (more powerful than cruisers) and speed of 28 knots (faster than most battleships.)

She weighs 10000 tons (due to the ww1 treaty limits) and have 5 inch belt armor.

So she has a classification of a battleship and a cruiser. 

in your opinion( since this ship is still only for tester) should it be in the cruiser line or battleship line ???

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Cruiser.

 

"Pocket Battleship" was British propaganda. Graf Spee has the weight and the armor of a cruiser, not a battleship. Technically, she doesn't really even have battleship sized guns(I believe most of the dreadnoughts of that era were mounting at least 12 or14in guns with 7 of them mounting 16in guns). Ships like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau only had 11in guns because of the treaty limits placed on Germany after WW1.

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The Graf Spee is the type of ship one gets when a country is looking to make a political statement (see Germany and its treaty limitations in the 1920s).  They built a ship which really doesn't belong in any category.  I personally have always thought of her as a commerce raider.  Something which could fight cruisers protecting merchant ships and fast enough to out run battleships protecting merchants.  Its target was merchant ships, not other military ships.

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Should Admiral Graf Spee really should be in the German cruiser line ???

Here is the reason :

Admiral Graf Spee was a so called  pocket battleship (meaning stronger than most faster ships and faster than most stronger ships.)

She has 11inch guns (more powerful than cruisers) and speed of 28 knots (faster than most battleships.)

She weighs 10000 tons (due to the ww1 treaty limits) and have 5 inch belt armor.

So she has a classification of a battleship and a cruiser. 

in your opinion( since this ship is still only for tester) should it be in the cruiser line or battleship line ???

 

​He is a German Heavy Cruiser according to the Germans. The Pocket BB thing was a nick name from the Brits.

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Cruiser. It's a cruiser hull, with cruiser hitpoints, cruiser armor, cruiser maneuverability, cruiser range.

 

'Pocket battleship' is just a propaganda phrase and needs to die.

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Cruiser.

 

"Pocket Battleship" was British propaganda. Graf Spee has the weight and the armor of a cruiser, not a battleship. Technically, she doesn't really even have battleship sized guns(I believe most of the dreadnoughts of that era were mounting at least 12 or14in guns with 7 of them mounting 16in guns). Ships like Scharnhorst and Gneisenau only had 11in guns because of the treaty limits placed on Germany after WW1.

 

Right but wrong, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had 11" because they didn't have 15" guns available. It was planned to replace the 11's with 15's.

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I also say cruiser.  Granted she was initially classified as an "Armored Ship", the whole class was reclassified as heavy cruisers later on.  

"Admiral Graf Spee and her sisters were designed to outgun any cruiser fast enough to catch them." <From Wikipedia

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It's a cruiser with BB guns

 

Just like some of the german DDs are large DDs with cruiser guns.

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She does seem like a cruiser, but I think it would be a good idea if WG added a battlecruiser classification. That will make it much easier when they want to do more RN ships since they loved their battlecruisers.

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SPB has their own classification system which is based off displacement.

This had to be done for balancing purposes, and to simplify the slew of different ship types.

 

Personally, I'm agreeing with cruiser, she has way too little armor.

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The DKM intially classed them as Panzerschiffe, or Armored Ship, meant to replace the pre-dreadnoughts battleships they were allowed to keep and replace with ships not exceeding 10,000 tonnes with 11-inch guns (tonnage they greatly exceeded, like the IJN cruisers did for the Washington Treaty), by the Treaty of Versailles. Germany was not allowed battleships prior to Hitler's renunciation of the treaty after he took power, but planning for building them was well in hand before that.They changed that designation to Kreuzer, or Cruiser, only in 1942 as far as I know. It fits in the CA category quite nicely, and is not overpowered IMHO.

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016

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Should Admiral Graf Spee really should be in the German cruiser line ???

Here is the reason :

Admiral Graf Spee was a so called  pocket battleship (meaning stronger than most faster ships and faster than most stronger ships.)

She has 11inch guns (more powerful than cruisers) and speed of 28 knots (faster than most battleships.)

She weighs 10000 tons (due to the ww1 treaty limits) and have 5 inch belt armor.

So she has a classification of a battleship and a cruiser. 

in your opinion( since this ship is still only for tester) should it be in the cruiser line or battleship line ???

 

Faster than/more powerful than is an odd thing, the Deutschland's were designed to be in a niche but I'm not sure if they could have outgunned a contemporary all-up heavy cruiser significantly. The whole outgun only applies to a single ship as well.

 

As for 10,000 tons - AGS was 12,100 tons - quite an advantage over 10,000 tons, you get a lot of toys for that much weight.

 

Cruiser on the basis of size, thickness of armor belt, armor arrangement, machinery arrangement, German and foreign classification and finally as a done deal by WG, once the CC reviews are out it's pretty much a done deal.

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I find the Admiral Graf Spee to be absolutely bizarre.  :amazed:  She is too light to be a Battlecruiser, but carries a similar role (large guns+speed).   She will no doubt be a unique Cruiser when added into the game.

Edited by A_Horde_of_Sharks

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Cruiser. It's a cruiser hull, with cruiser hitpoints, cruiser armor, cruiser maneuverability, cruiser range.

 

'Pocket battleship' is just a propaganda phrase and needs to die.

 

nothing wrong with the phrase, one just can't take it literally. it's a nickname. 

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It's important to understand that Graf Spee was classified such as she was because Germany wasn't a party to the Washington Treaty but was subject to Versailles at the time she was designed and commissioned.  She was built to the maximum limits under these rules and effectively was a heavy cruiser, but unbound by the maximum gun calibre agreed at Washington.  And by clever design and the acceptance of a much lower maximum speed the Germans managed to fit these guns on the same displacement as the Royal Navy's County-class heavy cruisers.  She was by no means an especially powerful ship, she was simply a ship that the British didn't have a direct counterpart to since they could build proper battleships and battlecruisers under their own treaty obligations.

 

One of the biggest effects of the Washington treaty was to halt the rapidly increasing size of cruisers between 1905 and 1920.  By the standards of armoured cruisers a decade earlier the Deutschlands are actually relatively small, or at least average (e.g.: SMS Scharnhorst was about 1000 tons larger depending on load and the SMS Blücher was closer to twice her displacement and about the same displacement of the WW2 era Baltimore-class heavy cruisers).  Compared to even the first dreadnoughts Graf Spee is tiny and she would have had a very difficult time holding her own against them in spite of being far more modern and having excellent 28cm guns.  Remember she lost a battle against two Leanders and a York, none of which could be considered especially powerful examples of their type as they were optimized for trade protection and intentionally sacrificed fighting capability for range and reduced displacement so that the RN could build more cruisers under their treaty cap.  A proper battleship or battlecruiser of nearly any vintage would very likely have been able to sink all three during the South Atlantic summer with the visibility that Langsdorff faced that day, assuming the lookouts were sharp.

 

Had the Washington Treaty not put an end to the post-WWI naval arms race there's little doubt that the other powers would have continued to up-gun their cruisers as well.  You see plenty of evidence of this if you look at how the Japanese (prior to the war in violation of treaties) and the Americans designed ships as soon as they were unbound by Washington.  Even the Cleveland class light cruisers have a greater displacement than the Deutschlands.

 

Graf Spee is a weird cruiser, but she's certainly not a battleship and she was never intended to be used as such, nor did the Germans consider her or her sisters to be capital ships at any point in their careers.

 

Right but wrong, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had 11" because they didn't have 15" guns available. It was planned to replace the 11's with 15's.

 

You're absolutely right in saying that this isn't because of treaty obligations since the Scharnhorsts were designed in violation of the Treaty of Versailles regardless of their gun calibre (they were more than 3x larger than the maximum displacement the Germans had been allowed) and were built after the Treaty was no longer in force anyway.

 

To be clear before I continue, you're basically right I just mean to nit-pick since this is WoWs and the whole story of the Scharhorsts and the Bismarcks is one that has a lot of FUD attached that even really accomplished researchers often repeat.

 

My understanding, such as it is, is that the KM eventually planned on using (never manufactured) 35cm (~14") guns in line with the Washington Treaty limits, but that the original 11"/28cm guns the Scharnhorsts mounted were more than just an expedient.  Until the Americans enacted the escalator clause in response to the Yamatos the major powers had designed battleships to use 14" guns, so in this context the KM's original plans make a lot more sense.  This is why the KGVs had such comparatively weak armament and why the North Carolinas are a sub-optimal design, as both were designed and ordered before 16" guns became the norm (again).  Not only were 15" guns not available in Germany, but when the Scharnhorsts were laid down the Germans hadn't decided to part ways completely with International norms, they were simply building up capacity to eventually match their ostensible opponents and unlike the Japanese they were weak enough that a more flagrant violation was far more risky.

 

The German navy historically preferred smaller calibre, faster firing guns right up until the Bismarcks and specifically chose to improve the 28cm guns developed for the Deutschlands for this reason and as well as to avoid further escalation that would draw the wrath of the British.  Look at their WW1 era designs, in (nearly?) every case the Kaiserliche Marine deployed ships with smaller calibre guns than their British counterparts of the same generation and the lessons they took out of WW1 was that by and large this had been the right choice in their context.  It's safe to conclude that German design philosophy emphasized high quality guns and protection over speed and raw weight of broadside at nearly every turn.  This is another reason that the Graf Spee's don't fit into the German philosophy of capital ship design (they were pretty flimsy ships) and should be properly considered an evolution of their cruiser design under extreme circumstances rather than capital ships.

 

Generally speaking, with the notable exception of the US 16"/45 used in the Colorados, the British (and the Japanese who were heavily influenced by the Royal Navy) were much more focused on large calibre guns with heavy shells than any other navy and this was a trend that was only halted due to financial woes and the London Treaty.  Only with the final class of Imperial German Battleships, the Bayerns, did the Germans match their counterparts, the Queen Elizabeths, in gun calibre with the Royal Navy arming their next ships, the Nelsons with 16" guns as part of the general trend.

 

When Gneisenau was badly damaged and was being rebuilt the KM decided to up-gun her and it was at that stage that they chose the 15"/38cm guns used in the Bismarcks for commonality.   I don't believe the 38cm guns were ever part of the original designs, and as far as I know Scharnhorst was never considered for upgrade.  As part of that plan, if I remember correctly, they needed to do a lot more than just replace the turrets, magazines, ammo handling, and guns.  This is where I get a bit fuzzy, but if memory serves correctly there were significant changes to the hull required as well (bulges or perhaps lengthening) to support the increased displacement which is one of the many reasons the conversion was never completed.

 

That said, I'm pulling some of this from (rusty) memory and a few quick Google searches while waiting for a job to finish at work, and I could be mixing it up with all the other shenanigans the KM was up to in the 1930s.  It's very hard to navigate the complete gong show that was German military procurement in the WW2 era so I tend to take any "authoritative" sources with a grain of salt and stuff on the internet (like this post) with a pound of salt!

 

As an aside, if you want to read some really fascinating history, looking at how nearly everybody violated the Washington and London Treaties in their own way is a really interesting case study in arms control without verification!  V.E. Tarrant's book on the KGVs covers this problem in some detail and shows how even though the British made a concerted effort to build a fully compliant Treaty battleship with the resulting compromised capabilities, even they failed in doing so by any strict reading of the rules.  The closest anybody came were probably the US Navy and while the North Carolinas and especially the South Dakotas were very balanced ships, they were also built after the US applied the escalator clause were only compliant with the Treaty by comparison to everybody else. (Hint: if the builders say they hit the displacement right on the nose to the ton and their full load displacement is ~10,000 tons higher it's probably not a fully accurate assessment unless you squint and don't get too close.)  Even this was only possible because of an exceptionally tight design by the standards of the era and the absolute best machinery available for ships this size.  The US Navy paid a very high price in dollars for this quality.

 

Hell, the Japanese (sort of) tried to pass the Yamatos off as treaty battleships... :)

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I find the Admiral Graf Spee to be absolutely bizarre.  :amazed:  She is too light to be a Battlecruiser, but carries a similar role (large guns+speed).   She will no doubt be a unique Cruiser when added into the game.

 

I suspect battleships will have a good time blowing her out of the water when she first comes out and people misplay her, once she's been around a bit she'll be a niche ship, she'll be a good niche, but don't expect it to be a new super ship

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She does seem like a cruiser, but I think it would be a good idea if WG added a battlecruiser classification. That will make it much easier when they want to do more RN ships since they loved their battlecruisers.

 

Even if/when they split the BB line into BB and BC/fast BB it will still be a cruiser.

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Cruiser. It's a cruiser hull, with cruiser hitpoints, cruiser armor, cruiser maneuverability, cruiser range.

 

'Pocket battleship' is just a propaganda phrase and needs to die.

 

I agree with señor Lert..... britten propaganda must end.

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Should Admiral Graf Spee really should be in the German cruiser line ???

Here is the reason :

Admiral Graf Spee was a so called  pocket battleship (meaning stronger than most faster ships and faster than most stronger ships.)

She has 11inch guns (more powerful than cruisers) and speed of 28 knots (faster than most battleships.)

She weighs 10000 tons (due to the ww1 treaty limits) and have 5 inch belt armor.

So she has a classification of a battleship and a cruiser. 

in your opinion( since this ship is still only for tester) should it be in the cruiser line or battleship line ???

 

With Graf Spee having quite terrible armor for her mediocre size and handling made you feel better if she was labeled a Battleship instead?

 

Those Dunkekes, Scharnhorsts, etc. waiting for Graf's arrival don't give a f--k if she's a Cruiser or Battleship.  That armor is going to collapse badly.

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It's important to understand that Graf Spee was classified such as she was because Germany wasn't a party to the Washington Treaty but was subject to Versailles at the time she was designed and commissioned.  She was built to the maximum limits under these rules and effectively was a heavy cruiser, but unbound by the maximum gun calibre agreed at Washington.  And by clever design and the acceptance of a much lower maximum speed the Germans managed to fit these guns on the same displacement as the Royal Navy's County-class heavy cruisers.  She was by no means an especially powerful ship, she was simply a ship that the British didn't have a direct counterpart to since they could build proper battleships and battlecruisers under their own treaty obligations.

 

One common misconception about Versailles is that it limited Germany to 11" guns. It actually only limited Germany by tonnage, but allowed the WW1 Allies the right to veto design elements of Germany warships. For example when Emden (Germany's first postwar cruiser) was designed, she would've had her 8 6" guns in twin turrets. The Allies objected on the basis that this would make Emden superior to their own CLs (this was 1921, so the French Duguay-Trouin didn't exist yet and the British Leander was a decade away) and forced Germany to instead use single turrets, cutting Emden's broadside by 50%. The reason 11" guns were chosen is that since they were the same caliber as the pre-dreadnoughts they were replacing, and thus any objection by the Versailles powers would be obviously unreasonable. (What's also forgotten is that the Nazis had nothing to do with this since their rise to power was still a few years down the road.)

 

Also, building the Deutschlands was only Germany's second choice. When as expected the Versailles powers were dismayed by exactly what type of 10000 ton ship with 11" guns Germany had designed but couldn't come up with a way to block them without seeming unreasonable (after all these were replacements for Germany's battleships, and they certainly couldn't be considered in any way superior to British and French battleships), Germany made an offer to cancel the panzerschiff. But only if the Treaty of Versailles were abrogated and they were accepted into the Washington Naval Treaty with a 5:1.25 capital ship tonnage ratio with Britain (France and Italy each had a 5:1.75 ratio with Britain). Britain seemed to be perfectly okay with this idea, but France was having none of it. So Germany went ahead with the Deutschlands (cheating on tonnage restrictions to a level that would've given even the IJN pause) until they just ripped up Versailles on their own and openly built actual battleships a few years later.

 

When Gneisenau was badly damaged and was being rebuilt the KM decided to up-gun her and it was at that stage that they chose the 15"/38cm guns used in the Bismarcks for commonality.   I don't believe the 38cm guns were ever part of the original designs, and as far as I know Scharnhorst was never considered for upgrade.  As part of that plan, if I remember correctly, they needed to do a lot more than just replace the turrets, magazines, ammo handling, and guns.  This is where I get a bit fuzzy, but if memory serves correctly there were significant changes to the hull required as well (bulges or perhaps lengthening) to support the increased displacement which is one of the many reasons the conversion was never completed.

 

That's correct, and nearly all of those alterations had already been done when Hitler cancelled all work on surface ships. Very little was left to complete Gneisenau's refit other than attaching the new bow and dropping in the 38cm turrets.

 

Hell, the Japanese (sort of) tried to pass the Yamatos off as treaty battleships... :)

 

That was just about hiding the Yamatos' true capability, so as to take America by surprise when their hoped-for "decisive battle" happened.  Japan renounced the Washington and London Naval Treaties in 1936, a year before Yamato was laid down. Though technically Japan was supposed to still be bound by the London Treaty for a 2 year period after withdrawing.

 

Oh, and regarding the German panzerschiffen, I wonder if Kreuzer D will ever be implemented. Unlike other improved-Deutschland concepts, that ship was actually laid down before being scrapped and replaced by Scharnhorst. Armament would be identical to Graf Spee (aside from the secondaries being in twin turrets) and speed would only be 0.5kt faster, but it'd be 5000 tons heavier the armor would be vastly superior with a 8.7" belt and 3.1" deck.

Edited by Lord_Magus

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