sbcptnitro

Help me get better! Episode 1: Moskva

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26 posts in this topic

So I realize I'm taking a chance by doing this, but whatever.

 

Got the idea yesterday from another thread, so I thought I'd play a game a ship I typically suck in, but I'm supposed to be good in due to its OP-ness, make a video of it and post it for all to see, laugh at, critique, flame, etc.

 

Forget the fact that this just happened to be my best game in the Moskva. Several instances worked out for when they normally wouldn't, like when the Yamato completely ignored me as I attacked his broadside and the "friendly" Shima who simultaneously screwed and saved me at the end.

 

Anyway, I'm seriously looking for some good feedback here:

  • How would you set yourself up on this map and particular spawn point?
  • What did I do that made you think "Oh no....don't do that!"
  • How would you have done it differently? Not looking for "hindsight quarterbacking", but how would you know in that moment to do it differently.

 

Well, here goes...

 

I'm not kidding, I really do suck with this ship..

7FGk9hG.png

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+1.

 

I hope the trolls are too bored to muck up your thread.

 

At work, can't watch your video.


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Watching now, but I wanted to get in that I'm happy you did this.

 

I wish we all could post things like this to get new ideas and as Kerrec said, I hope this will stay Troll free.

Edited by Wulfgarn

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Excellent idea.

Will watch and comment (update my post). Not expert in Moskva (never like the fact of being BB but not quite). I think tactical analysis of battles is very interesting idea

 

2-5 minutes: little too conservative, but in the beginning its good (especially in standard battle). 4:30-5:00 - missed opportunity to shoot FDG (HE, if you prefer AP - aim for superstructure), dangerously broadsided to 15km NC), those 2 BB on the east chasing DD and our DD behind them...typical epipotatos

 

5:40 - broadside sailing start catching up - red Moskva hitting you with 8k+ and she's angled so your AP doesn't do much, HE would work better (and if FDG would do it?)

here I would probably go north to help DD cap (notice - they are closer to north cap also there are 2 CA already defending)

 

6:20-7:00 - way too many broadsiding - I mean it was really lucky not to get cits - Moskva from 17km for Yammi is sugar

here I would chose burning Yamato instead of trying to nail New Orleans - from 17km wiggling CA is hard target plus he is not much of a threat anyway so far (keeping in the open sea is not healthy in T10 game for NO)

7:00 - 9:00 - good engaging Hind, New Orleans becoming threat as there is green Benson and switching to NO make sense. Yammi made serious mistake ignoring you, but he was surrounded so its expected.

After Yammi death it was predictable win (though Essex running south was pleasant gift... notice angled Essex immune to your AP btw)

 

 

 

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2

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My thoughts:

Hm, you should have fired AP at those broadside cruisers. Most notably when you first started engaging the New Orleans. 

I personally use the main battery range increase mod for those games where no on wants to push, I feel like it helps. Do you have the two ruddershift modules? I like to use that and my range to be able to WASD incoming fire. 

 

It seemed like you were getting a lot of overpens, I think you aim too high. Especially on that Essex. Should have also switched to HE sooner when he started turning but a friendly got a fire on it so not much of an issue.

 

When you fought the FdG you repaired the fire too fast. Should have used the repair. Or when you got set on fire twice, you should have used the repair then.

 

When you got into the bow on fight the the FdG you should have switched to HE after the initial AP shot.

 

During the Duel with the Moskva, you should have switched to HE sooner after he realized you were getting cits on him. 

 

Positioning wasn't bad. You were able to defend the cap from the enemy team that came in from the West. Can't believe the CV charged that far south though.

 

One major thing that worried me was that you really liked to get that third turret going. For the most part it worked out fine but just remember how much trouble you can get into by showing that much side. 

Edited by saagri

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Moskva is a ship I have a hard time carrying in since it's a very snipey ship that can tank some hits but you really don't want to be up there tanking hits if you don't have to, because if anything at all catches your flank, you're boned. 

 

I love the ship, but like you my WR in her is awful. 

 

That and it's frustrating, because doing 90k damage and tanking 2.5 million damage in a cruiser nets you bottom-middle of the pack score wise apparently. True story. 


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Going to type this up as I watch:

 

First off, I would highly recommend a concealment build so you don't get hard spotted at the start of the match from the enemy spawn; it will help a lot with your positioning. 15km+ detection is just too painful for cruiser work.

 

As for positioning on that map/spawn, you mostly did the right thing which is to head for the center of the map, but you start to travel really far back while angled away; I'd say that you want to be a little closer and facing towards the enemy push heading to where A cap would be and start farming damage off them from about ~16km. At ranges like that, Moskva's 50mm armoring and high HP pool makes enemy fire not too problematic as long as you don't let an enemy battleship get around to your side, so don't be too worried about taking some damage.

 

When you're fighting the enemy Moskva, you take a pretty meaty hit due to showing side; again, I'd try to be more bow-in towards him and the enemy push out west. Reverse if you have to, but being nosed in and spamming HE/fires at the enemy exerts a lot more presence than you do while running away. 

 

When you end up facing down the der Grosse, you waste a lot of damage shooting AP directly into his armored bow. If you really want to use AP, aim for the superstructure, but HE in that situation would have been a lot more effective and probably would have saved some of your HP. You also use quite a bit of AP shooting at the Moskva angling away from you; in that situation, both the raw and fire damage from HE would have been a lot better. 

 

I think the main issues for you are positioning/map presence and ammo selection. At the 4 minute mark, to be specific, I would have turned a bit towards the west instead of turning out to the east like you did. Setting up position there would have both made the enemy think a little more about pushing in as hard as they did and also would have made your team a little more likely to effectively engage them instead of scattering. For ammo, AP is great in some situations, like when you get that juicy Yamato side, but HE and fires will give you much more consistent and effective damage against the majority of targets in the majority of situations. Keep in mind that HE can penetrate the 32mm bows of battleships, so aiming correctly will give you consistent 5k+ damage salvos on top of starting fires and people on fire are likely to be more hesitant than those who are just eating moderate AP damage. Nobody likes burning.

 

 

 

 


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My thoughts:

 

One major thing that worried me was that you really liked to get that third turret going. For the most part it worked out fine but just remember how much trouble you can get into by showing that much side. 

 

Agreed... one of my majors faults is wanting to get my rear turrets firing.... but then it does double my firepower.. with a good rudder shift mod, you can swing the [edited]end out for a fire and bring it back in, in between shots form another BB, but the risk is there... I feel it is chance worth taking depending on the situation, like when a push needs to be turned away but it is you against 3 or 4...

 

​very surprised no one on his team countered that western push as it developed.... and yeah... what was that carrier doing so far south... I think it was a start exercise...

 


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...

 

....

 

Great feedback, guys! This exactly what I'm looking for!

 

So common theme here: get better at ammo selection, don't worry about using the third turret so much (yes, I know this gets me in trouble).

 

Conflicting opinions: saagri likes the rudder shift option (which I am using), Gaishu like a full concealment build.  It just seems to me that a full concealment build doesn't really get me all that much of a benefit, does it?

 

Anyway, great advice so far! Keep it coming!

Edited by sbcptnitro

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Agreed... one of my majors faults is wanting to get my rear turrets firing.... but then it does double my firepower.. with a good rudder shift mod, you can swing the [edited]end out for a fire and bring it back in, in between shots form another BB, but the risk is there... I feel it is chance worth taking depending on the situation, like when a push needs to be turned away but it is you against 3 or 4...

 

​very surprised no one on his team countered that western push as it developed.... and yeah... what was that carrier doing so far south... I think it was a start exercise...

 

 

Technically speaking it is a +50% increase in damage but the ruddershift modules drastically reduces the risk. 

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Great feedback, guys! This exactly what I'm looking for!

 

So common theme here: get better at ammo selection, don't worry about using the third turret so much (yes, I know this gets me in trouble).

 

Conflicting opinions: saagri likes the rudder shift option (which I am using), Gaishu like a full concealment build.  It just seems to me that a full concealment build doesn't really get me all that much of a benefit, does it?

 

Anyway, great advice so far! Keep it coming!

 

Concealment is alright but here is why I use the ruddershifts:

 

I can get 3 T4 skills :ohmy:

DE, AFT, and Manual AA makes me an incredibly flexible ship.

With AA range increase and Main Battery Range increase I get an 8.2km range AA bubble with enough main battery range to hang by the Battleships while being combat effective. This way in case of CV strikes, I can cover them. 

 

In addition I can play as an "Evasion Tank" to WASD out of the way of enemy BB's that take shots on me. Something I have become accustomed to playing Russian DD's. Meanwhile I have the range, accuracy, fire rate, fire chance, to whittle down the enemy BB's.  I think I also have incoming fire alert to start the WASD when it lights up. 

 

It makes the Moskva a battleship, with like a 4 second ruddershift, that burns anything that it can't AP to death. Oh, and is all but immune to airplanes. Plus the Radar for the pesky DD's. 

Edited by saagri

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Concealment is alright but here is why I use the ruddershifts:

 

I can get 3 T4 skills :ohmy:

DE, AFT, and Manual AA makes me an incredibly flexible ship.

With AA range increase and Main Battery Range increase I get an 8.2km range AA bubble with enough main battery range to hang by the Battleships while being combat effective. This way in case of CV strikes, I can cover them. 

 

In addition I can play as an "Evasion Tank" to WASD out of the way of enemy BB's that take shots on me. Something I have become accustomed to playing Russian DD's. Meanwhile I have the range, accuracy, fire rate, fire chance, to whittle down the enemy BB's.  I think I also have incoming fire alert to start the WASD when it lights up. 

 

8.2km AA...seriously?? :amazed:

 

Yeah, I gotta try that. And yes, I have an 18-pt captain on it as well, so I can do 3 t4s as well.


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8.2km AA...seriously?? :amazed:

 

Yeah, I gotta try that. And yes, I have an 18-pt captain on it as well, so I can do 3 t4s as well.

 

Super cereal. Her 4 DP guns out DPS the Des Moines DP guns while having a 6km base range. Manual AA turns this boat from a meh AA boat to super ridiculous levels of CV salt farming. Only problem is lack of CV's but when there is one that AA will be very useful. 

 

Fun fact. Moskva's 4 DP guns can out range, and out DPS the North Carolina. I actually did a Moskva secondary build and it was hilarious but ultimately not worth it. 


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One thought that came to mind is that this was a good match. Everybody has good matches every now and then. What is more important is being able to pay well and consistently which is something I am still working on. This is especially true in matches that are unfavorable either due to the map itself or terrible teams.  


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Super cereal. Her 4 DP guns out DPS the Des Moines DP guns while having a 6km base range. Manual AA turns this boat from a meh AA boat to super ridiculous levels of CV salt farming. Only problem is lack of CV's but when there is one that AA will be very useful. 

 

Fun fact. Moskva's 4 DP guns can out range, and out DPS the North Carolina. I actually did a Moskva secondary build and it was hilarious but ultimately not worth it. 

 

 

​It would be interesting to see ( not that there is enough people to do so) the ability to select or deselect a battle with a CV. One could then chose to bring in the AA specific ship or go with one that is not built as an AA platform.

 

 


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​It would be interesting to see ( not that there is enough people to do so) the ability to select or deselect a battle with a CV. One could then chose to bring in the AA specific ship or go with one that is not built as an AA platform.

 

 

 

Well, if you division with a CV, you have to get an enemy CV.

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Great feedback, guys! This exactly what I'm looking for!

 

So common theme here: get better at ammo selection, don't worry about using the third turret so much (yes, I know this gets me in trouble).

 

Conflicting opinions: saagri likes the rudder shift option (which I am using), Gaishu like a full concealment build.  It just seems to me that a full concealment build doesn't really get me all that much of a benefit, does it?

 

Anyway, great advice so far! Keep it coming!

 

The reason why I prefer concealment is that it is universally useful. The extra T4 skills from a non-CE build only have use in CV matches, which you will only consistently see if you always div up with a CV (in which case they are very useful and probably worth using over the CE build). I like rudder shift and actually use it on my Zao and Minotaur over a full concealment build, but only because they both have an excellent base concealment and are far less tanky than Moskva is when bow in. Moskva has less need to be constantly dodging shells when you're facing in due to her tankiness, whereas the other T10 cruisers are far squishier and will eat much more damage. If you have to give up side and turn away, the rudder shift mod won't help you complete the turn much faster and you'll eat damage anyways. It's useful if you are constantly on the rudder to avoid shells, but I personally get more benefit out of concealment.

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 Keep in mind that HE can penetrate the 32mm bows of battleships, so aiming correctly will give you consistent 5k+ damage salvos on top of starting fires and people on fire are likely to be more hesitant than those who are just eating moderate AP damage. Nobody likes burning.

 

So this is an interesting point. Are you saying in this instance where AP will do no damage (can't overmatch), HE will? And a significant amount at that?

 


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So this is an interesting point. Are you saying in this instance where AP will do no damage (can't overmatch), HE will? And a significant amount at that?

 

 

Most bow's except the German BB's are all 32. Moskva's 210mm guns can pen 35mm of armor.

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So this is an interesting point. Are you saying in this instance where AP will do no damage (can't overmatch), HE will? And a significant amount at that?

 

 

Yes, exactly. HE can penetrate 1/6th of the caliber, so 8 inch guns can effectively deal damage to the sterns and bows of battleships at any angle. AP, on the other hand, only automatically penetrates the caliber divided by 14.3, a much smaller number. At close range, aiming for bows with HE nets you about 1k damage per shell with Moskva. Keep in mind that the lower portion of the bows of the German BBs are protected by 60mm of plating, so you would have had to aim for the very top of the der Grosse's bow.

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I'm close to unlocking this ship and I'm not planning on going concealment. I dont like concealment on BBs or russian DD since they are spotted no matter what when firing, and they should always be firing. I think Moskva is in the same category. Thanks for all the good tips, im looking forward to trying this ship out.


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I'm close to unlocking this ship and I'm not planning on going concealment. I dont like concealment on BBs or russian DD since they are spotted no matter what when firing, and they should always be firing. I think Moskva is in the same category. Thanks for all the good tips, im looking forward to trying this ship out.

 

The case could me made for concealment for Moskva because it can inisifire. With max concealment and range increase it has a roughly 3km window in which it can fire and not be detected. 

 

But it's detection range is poor and a DD will most likely prevent you from pulling it off. 

Edited by saagri

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Yes, exactly. HE can penetrate 1/6th of the caliber, so 8 inch guns can effectively deal damage to the sterns and bows of battleships at any angle. AP, on the other hand, only automatically penetrates the caliber divided by 14.3, a much smaller number. At close range, aiming for bows with HE nets you about 1k damage per shell with Moskva. Keep in mind that the lower portion of the bows of the German BBs are protected by 60mm of plating, so you would have had to aim for the very top of the der Grosse's bow.

 

Wow. How did I not know this? Never stop learning, I guess.

 

iY62Gvz.gif


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Wow. How did I not know this? Never stop learning, I guess.

 

iY62Gvz.gif

 

German HE pens 1/4 of the diameter. 

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