protecting radar and FC systems

[JohnPJones]

so one of the things people keep talking about is mission kill and how you can't armor radar arrays and the necessary FC systems to make warships useful in combat, but what if you could?

 

i literally just had this idea less than 15 seconds before clicking 'new thread' so reliability, cost, and maintenance are not things i've thought much about yet.

 

any way here's my proposal either the combat necessary radars and directors would raise up out of an armored encasement for use when combat is imminent or expected, or an armored sleeve would slide down on a track/rail to reveal the delicate bits.

 

possibly it could lower back into the encasement/have the armored sleeve raise back up around it when enemy missiles are detected. 

 

like a said just a concept i had not too long ago, probably isn't very feasible, but i figure if it made sense to have missiles rise up out of an armored magazine to load this should at least in theory be about as feasible.

[The_first_harbinger]

For the arrays to be effectively protected against semi-armorpiercing warheads, I would imagine atleast 3 inch of plating must be implemented...

Judging by how big the arrays are on Arleigh Burkes and heck, Zumwalts, that would be a big waste on tonnage, also makes the ships top heavy and therefore even less sea worthy...(l'm looking at you Zumwalt)

And to be honest, let's say if such an array was struck with a YJ 802, a typical Chinese made anti-ship missile also made by Iran and several other countries, the blast alone would be enough to distort the ship structure with it's massive 850kg warhead, left alone the radar array...

[TenguBlade]

I think the USN Zumwalt-class DDGs already incorporate something along those lines, though it's important to note that their arrays are housed internally primarily for the sake of stealth/sheltering from weather and not protection during combat.

 

In general, widespread use of armor is an uncommon thing on modern warships with how much combat doctrine has shifted.  Nowadays, it's about avoiding damage entirely rather than being able to take hits and keep going.

[mofton]

Does armor protect relatively fragile radar and FCS systems from shock damage?

 

Even with relatively more mechanical/analog systems in WWII it was not uncommon for systems to be knocked out by blast or simply vibration.

[Special_Kay]

Seems like it would be more practical to float it up on a tethered balloon. A few control surfaces for stability and a remote-activated valve on it to bring it back down in the event of tether damage, and you're all set.

[MrDeaf]

You don't need armor when one hit blows up the entire ship.

 

What you do need are splinter shields from the shrapnel, but that doesn't require 200mm of armor at all.

[TenguBlade]

Does armor protect relatively fragile radar and FCS systems from shock damage?

 

Even with relatively more mechanical/analog systems in WWII it was not uncommon for systems to be knocked out by blast or simply vibration.

*coughSouthDakotacough*

Seems like it would be more practical to float it up on a tethered balloon. A few control surfaces for stability and a remote-activated valve on it to bring it back down in the event of tether damage, and you're all set.

Then one just has to shoot the balloon and you lose billion-dollar tech, not to mention you risk it being salvaged.

[The_first_harbinger]

*coughSouthDakotacough*

*coughBismarckcough*

[Special_Kay]

Then one just has to shoot the balloon and you lose billion-dollar tech, not to mention you risk it being salvaged.

 

I thought we were talking about long-range missile engagements, not put-a-sharpshooter-on-deck ranges?

[Hiro_Yoshi]

*cough* weight limitations topside for seaworthiness *cough*

[TenguBlade]

I thought we were talking about long-range missile engagements, not put-a-sharpshooter-on-deck ranges?

You would need a decently-sized balloon to lift a military-grade sensor array like that, we're not talking about a civilian-issue radar pod you can bolt onto your speedboat.  Invariably that means the balloon is more detectable.  How detectable is up for debate, but you're not talking party balloon-sized either.  More importantly, the higher-up it is, the less likely it gets confused with clutter.

[Samurai_TwoSeven]

While you can protect the fire control system, what you cannot protect is the delicate sensor arrays of RADAR. They require a clear line of sight and must be posted in the open, if you were to put the sensor arrays behind armor you would either hinder their performance or outright nullify it

[JohnPJones]

While you can protect the fire control system, what you cannot protect is the delicate sensor arrays of RADAR. They require a clear line of sight and must be posted in the open, if you were to put the sensor arrays behind armor you would either hinder their performance or outright nullify it

Did you even read the original post at all?  As for everyone else good points made. Like I said earlier this thread was made without much in depth thought on the problems and issues that would arise.

 

[flyingtaco]

its mostly a weight concern that and  if you are talking battleship radars in World war II  .. just shock was enough in many cases to knock them out one of the reasons that metal vacuum tubes became a thing. 

[Eisennagel]

 

Everyone missed the most basic thing is that radio waves are absorbed by ferrite material.  That means anything with iron or nickel molecules, especially steel.  EMF is converted into electrical current.  Hence you cannot armor a radar array because the armor would block it.  Other metals also interfere, block, reflect radio transmission due to their density.  

 

Hence the use of polycarbonate for radomes to help protect the array, though mainly from weather, but also provides some protection from splinter damage.  At the same time, the radome has an embedded pattern of radio absorbtion designed to absorb all other radio waves except the frequency the radar uses, so to reduce interference from anything like foreign ECM, but most especially, from other radars, ECM, and ECCM used by the ship.  The radome must also feature protection from lightning, since naturally lightning is going to strike a tall antenna mast first.  

 

 

[flyingtaco]

Which would be why the op said sleeve would retract as necessary etc.  But I guess would depend in what weapon you were using ... guns within  certain limitations can be more accurately layed by a visual range finder than by radar. Radar works better at night and such but  there was at least one documented case in the 1980s where a bb was shooting with radar and the operators considered the shells on target but visually the things were off of where they were displayed to be landing ... had something to do with the B scope which represents a curved surface (earth) as flat for display to operators.

[Murotsu]

The way you protect radar and fire controls is first by distributing them widely throughout the ship.  This makes it hard to take them out simply because now you have to hit, well, everything.

A second method is to concentrate them in very specific locations where they are sufficiently compact to do that.  That does the same thing.  It makes taking the systems out entirely much harder.

You can then distribute the cabling, power, etc., the same way to prevent it from being entirely damaged.  Most modern ships either use a ring bus for power (larger ones like carriers) or switch sides of the ship for sections of the distribution system.

The actual antennas can be hardened to some extent with plastic armor like Kevlar or Delran.

As a last ditch method, placement of portable radar or other sensors on the ship that can be deployed in the event of a loss of the primary systems is possible too.  These are sort of a "better than nothing" fix.

Now, on larger ships like carriers, the entire hull is made of armor plate 1/2" to 1" thick that will stop splinters and light rounds from penetrating.  There are multiple armored decks and critical spaces like CIC and magazines get more armor as well.  It's all designed not to withstand a direct hit by a large warhead, but rather to minimize the spread of splinter damage, fire, and flooding.

 

[Talleyrand]

There is the problem of the top weight. Put it so much weight up there is incredible problematic. I easier to add 1000 tons in the waterline than 100 at such height. But thats not the main issue I think.
The real question is way Would I turn the radar off? If the ship is in combat she needs the radar to detect incoming threaths, If not she needs it to deteck aproaching enemies...and if she is not at war she doesn't need to protect it.

[Lord_Slayer]

another point: what if your 'armored/covered' radar hatch or protection is hit by a missile/projectile and the hatch/protection is now jammed?

 

I believe that happened to a few Ironclads during the US Civil War. Many of the ships had port covers that would close after the gun was fired to protect the gun crews. Remember, most of these guns were muzzle loaders. After a protracted battle, several guns could no longer be used because the gun ports had been battered to the point of being unable to open.

[Talleyrand]

6 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

another point: what if your 'armored/covered' radar hatch or protection is hit by a missile/projectile and the hatch/protection is now jammed?

 

I believe that happened to a few Ironclads during the US Civil War. Many of the ships had port covers that would close after the gun was fired to protect the gun crews. Remember, most of these guns were muzzle loaders. After a protracted battle, several guns could no longer be used because the gun ports had been battered to the point of being unable to open.

Intresting. I didn't knew that.