Deltavee

Kills, and losing them

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33 posts in this topic

5:48 pm EST

Wow! I didn't expect this kind of reaction when I posted what I thought was basically a gripe.  Coming to WoWS from WoT where kill stealing is frowned upon and not knowing the cultural difference between the two games, I just griped and figured that it would be ignored.  Surprise!

 

I thoroughly understand the difference in the ethics of the two games now and thanks to all who contributed their wisdom, kindly worded or otherwise.  As my old man said many, many years ago, "What you lose on the swing you make up on the roundabout."

 

You can rest assured, though, that I will still be checking the results at the end of each battle because making 6 kills, which is my max, kicks butt! 

 

***

 

I have been playing for about three weeks now in co-op and there is only one issue I have, that of losing a kill to an opportunist.

 

I realize we all play to kill off all the enemy ships and take any opportunity to do so, so I don't think there is much in the way of actual kill stealing going on, heat of battle, fog of war, etc. 

 

However, it is very frustrating to spend three of four minutes wrecking a BB with a Cruiser, alone, and when his health is down to a couple of kill shots, someone waltzes by, puts a couple of shells into him and GETS THE KILL.  This has happened to me more than once and it is infuriating, especially with a battleship because they take a lot of work to kill.

 

Has it ever been proposed that the kill should go to the person that did the most damage to a ship?  And that the person who actually puts the last shell through it should get an Assist instead of a kill?  If that proposition has not been made, I am making it now.

 

Devs, could you at least please look at the situation and consider whether a more equitable method might be arrived at?

 

This is my first post in a new game so if I have misposted or done something wrong, please correct and let me know.

 

I would be very interested in hearing from other players and, of course, from the Devs, on this subject.

Edited by Deltavee

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It's been proposed number times, but it's basically pointless to implement anyway because the only thing that comes from getting a kill is the red kill ribbon, potentially a Kraken (if you can KS 5 times) and a massive E-peen on the person doing the KSing.

TBH - Kill stealing in this game is good. When teams aren't kill stealing, there are really only 2 possibilities.
1. Someone got a Devastating Strike, which is good.

2. Team isn't focus firing like at all. This is super bad.

 

Just deal damage. Don't worry about getting kill numbers. I'd rather do 100,000 damage with no kills than 50,000 with 5.


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Better still, Drop the "I must get the most kills so everyone will worship the ground I walk on" idea. Exp and credit are awarded by damage. Kills are just multipliers. If you did 80% of the damage to a ship you earn 80% of exp and credit. Any seasoned player of wows, wot, and wowp will tell you that kill means nothing if you are not doing enough damage.

 

Kills is good for your team as it removes enemy guns from play so it should be understood that you put rounds to kill whichever ships that can be killed faster. I can't count how many time the team rip apart an enemy ship for 90% of HP only to have that guy stays alive and dealt 100k more damage to my team. I personally had deal 150k damage in a shimakazi after surviving a torp run with 100 hp left. You shoot to kill low hp ship first then worry about getting good damage.

 

Do not complaint about someone taking a kill from you. You should be glad you had help and won't take any return fire from a dead enemy ship.


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Just deal damage. Don't worry about getting kill numbers. I'd rather do 100,000 damage with no kills than 50,000 with 5.

 

Well said! Concentrate on targets that help your team and team mates don't worry about kill ribbons!


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There are no kill steals, only kill secures.

 

Try to win and don't worry about who gets credit for the kill.


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Better still, Drop the "I must get the most kills so everyone will worship the ground I walk on" idea. Exp and credit are awarded by damage. Kills are just multipliers. If you did 80% of the damage to a ship you earn 80% of exp and credit. Any seasoned player of wows, wot, and wowp will tell you that kill means nothing if you are not doing enough damage.

 

Kills is good for your team as it removes enemy guns from play so it should be understood that you put rounds to kill whichever ships that can be killed faster. I can't count how many time the team rip apart an enemy ship for 90% of HP only to have that guy stays alive and dealt 100k more damage to my team. I personally had deal 150k damage in a shimakazi after surviving a torp run with 100 hp left. You shoot to kill low hp ship first then worry about getting good damage.

 

Do not complaint about someone taking a kill from you. You should be glad you had help and won't take any return fire from a dead enemy ship.

 

holypk says to me: "Drop the "I must get the most kills so everyone will worship the ground I walk on" idea." - That's not what I said nor what I meant.  I don't think that way. 

 

I clearly understand the Good of the Team concept, believe me.  In fact, I'm the only one I've seen (so far as I've played, mind you, I'm not saying it never happens) that will offer a CV AA and if he says yes, stick with him to provide that AA.  I know how fleet screening works.  Mind you that just gets you  a message at the end of the battle saying "You have not proved yourself in battle." because you didn't rack up any points, but whatever, if the CV needs AA, then it gets it.

 

I am not complaining about someone taking a kill from me, I'm just trying to say that he who does the work should get the credit.

 

And Jim, I have no problem dishing out help to whoever I can see that needs it.  I'll go after a target that is beating on a team mate who is low on points instead of picking off an easy kill every time.

 

I don't care about kill numbers, but I do care about reward for effort put out and I definitely agree with Captain Dorja when he says "Just deal damage. Don't worry about getting kill numbers. I'd rather do 100,000 damage with no kills than 50,000 with 5."  That's the way I play all the time.

 

As I said in my original post, I'm new to the game and the forum, so one learns by doing, n'est-ce pas?

 

Thanks for all of your input. I've read every word of it and profited from all of it.

Edited by Deltavee

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It's been proposed number times, but it's basically pointless to implement anyway because the only thing that comes from getting a kill is the red kill ribbon, potentially a Kraken (if you can KS 5 times) and a massive E-peen on the person doing the KSing.

 

TBH - Kill stealing in this game is good. When teams aren't kill stealing, there are really only 2 possibilities.

1. Someone got a Devastating Strike, which is good.

2. Team isn't focus firing like at all. This is super bad.

 

Just deal damage. Don't worry about getting kill numbers. I'd rather do 100,000 damage with no kills than 50,000 with 5.

 

QFT, you earn most of your experience by dealing damage and doing it while in the right places, typically in or near a cap for you and or your target.


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QFT, you earn most of your experience by dealing damage and doing it while in the right places, typically in or near a cap for you and or your target.

 

I concur, BrushWolf.  I usually go for the cap if it makes sense and deal as much damage as possible along the way.  If someone's in trouble, they trump the cap effort.  Hell, with my short game experience so far, just staying alive is often the name of the game!  < insert large grin here >  I just got my first tier V ship today. Edited by Deltavee

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Its a team effort you do get the rewards for damage done ...we all have got kills or a ribbon for sinking someone elses work I know I have but never to steal but always to help team ... thats my mindset

Only seen a kill stealer once and it hapened to me in my Murmansk .. at start of game another Cruiser is tailing me around some Islands came across a DD that fired Torps a gun battle insued only when DD almost dead did the Cruiser fire taking the kill .. he took know damage mine was light.. still following me came across another Cruiser broadside to me I hit him with AP first then HE Only when Cruiser was almost sunk did my friend shoot stealing kill ,My health down to halve he took know damage , on we go a cleveland comes around an Island at 6 k halve Health now there's know way ill win this gun fight but with my buddy close by a good chance .. a gun battles starts got some nice hits on the Cleveland but im seriously damaged and then I notice my little buddy is just sitting there not firing ounly after I sunk did he shoot sinking the Cleveland ... 3 kills no damage ... now thats a team player !! And kill stealer ... I was so mad I didn't get name .. maybe thats a good thing


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I used to be mindful of kill stealing, would leave low HP ships to someone else if I thought they earned it. Then 1 game I left a Fuso with 300 HP to a cleavland to finish, & that Fuso got off a long range snap shot at our CV & detonated it. Put us in a bind.


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When you are new getting those kills is very satisfying...and very frustrating when you don't get one you think you earned.  Your suggestion has been proposed many times, but there are serious flaws with it that would more adversely affect game play.  The little kill ribbon isn't worth damaging overall game play for.

 

I had a game today in the Benson where I dealt 140,000 damage...and only got one kill.  Didn't care.  I'm not going to lie, though, I do quite enjoy ending up at the top of my team at the end of the game.


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This idea might need to be revisited now with the campaigns.  There are several tasks where you're supposed to get a certain number of kills or specific types of kills.  There was one task I tried completing this past week in which you had to destroy 5 enemy ships in coop battles.  It honestly took me about 20 coop battles to do this because the particular ship I was using has a very slow fire rate with very high damage.  So, I'd consistently be getting ships down to 10% health only to watch a Mutsuki finish it off with it's little peashooter guns.  :)

 

 

It's not the end of the world of course, but it was a bit on the irritating side, that's for sure.  I like the idea of kills and kill assists being different.  If someone does less than say 25% of the damage to a ship, a kill assist seems fair.   If you do say 70% or more of the damage a kill seems reasonable.  Maybe a special award if you do it all on your own?


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Better still, Drop the "I must get the most kills so everyone will worship the ground I walk on" idea. Exp and credit are awarded by damage. Kills are just multipliers. If you did 80% of the damage to a ship you earn 80% of exp and credit. Any seasoned player of wows, wot, and wowp will tell you that kill means nothing if you are not doing enough damage.

 

Kills is good for your team as it removes enemy guns from play so it should be understood that you put rounds to kill whichever ships that can be killed faster. I can't count how many time the team rip apart an enemy ship for 90% of HP only to have that guy stays alive and dealt 100k more damage to my team. I personally had deal 150k damage in a shimakazi after surviving a torp run with 100 hp left. You shoot to kill low hp ship first then worry about getting good damage.

 

Do not complaint about someone taking a kill from you. You should be glad you had help and won't take any return fire from a dead enemy ship.

 

This is a good point.  The other day in my Gneisenau I had 7 kills but only did 75K damage.  I got a ton of love for it from others in the room but my high score in that ship is 147K.


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I do not care one single bit about who gets a kill and who doesn't.  Sometimes I finish off a badly weakened opponent with a one shot drive by and sometimes someone does it to my target.  I just don't care as long as the ship is sunk.  I have had zero kills in a game and finished with the top score and I have had 4 kills and finished in the bottom half.  I just look for the best target to shoot at, if it is full health or on deaths door it doesn't matter to me.  I just want the guy dead so it doesn't sink me or one of my teammates.


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As long as an enemy ship is alive it can damage or kill me or my team.  I want enemy ships killed as quickly as possible.  Period.


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As long as an enemy ship is alive it can damage or kill me or my team.  I want enemy ships killed as quickly as possible.  Period.

 

I couldn't agree more. Leaving a ship alive due to a petty squabble wastes time better spent shooting at the next target. Edited by A_Horde_of_Sharks

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While I'd prefer to get the kill as much as anyone else, I prefer the target be sunk ASAP to remove  the threat.  No telling what may happen when that threat lets off 1 last gun or torpedo salvo before sinking.  A lot of kills happen when somebody gets off "that last salvo"... How do you think people get a ton of "It's just a flesh wound" badges?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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My thoughts when I 1st began for me as well - but as someone else cited, the objective to delve out as much damage as possible since it benefits in terms of credits & XP & free-XP & squelches the feeling of being "stolen" from.  One instance in particular, I got +100K and in the process another team CA captain finished off two of the potential kills - in the TeamScore summary the XP tally paled in comparison.  In all it's a team effort to achieve a Victory .. and where all will gain more and not less with a Defeat.


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I suppose I would be okay with someone who does the most damage to a ship getting a 'kill assist' ribbon (I still don't think it's necessary).  But, the person who gets the kill...gets the kill.

 

How many times when you have been knocked down to low health have you gone on to get a couple of key caps and win the game...or sneak into the enemy's back lines and wreak havoc?  I know I have.  I certainly wasn't killed yet, so no one should already have had the credit for killing me.  A kill is not achieved until the deck is under water.  This has been discussed at length in numerous threads, so I won't repeat the multitude of reasons why such a suggestion would be bad for game play, all things considered.


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Low health DDs can still set me on fire and fire torps at me. I shoot at them until they sink.

Low health CA/CLs can still set me on fire and fire torps at me. I shoot at them until they sink.

Low health BBs can still lob big honkin shells at me and set me on fire and fire torps at me. I shoot at them until they sink.

Sometimes they do the same and sink me.

Oft times I'll shoot at a full health ship and my shells get there the same time 340756476 other shells do. Sometimes I get the 143hp kill; sometimes I leave the 143 hp kill.

It all evens out.


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I am not complaining about someone taking a kill from me, I'm just trying to say that he who does the work should get the credit.

 

You are not quite getting it.

 

The ribbon is awarded to the person that "kills" the ship. That is the person that puts that last round or torp into it and removes the last remaining HP. The "credit" already goes to them. They took it out of the match, and they get the ribbon.

 

XP is awarded to the other players that contributed to pounding the HPs off of the ship before it gets "killed". The greater percentage of the damage a player did, the greater their XP share.

 

It ain't broke... so it doesn't need to  be fixed.

Edited by Skarp_AGW

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XP is awarded to the other players that contributed to pounding the HPs off of the ship before it gets "killed". The greater percentage of the damage a player did, the greater their XP share.

 

Got it now, Chief and feeling much better about the game as well.  Now I'll be watching the XP numbers and trying to get those up.  So if I hammer the bejaysus out of a BB by myself off in some obscure map corner and someone plinks it from 12km away at the last moment, I'll rest easy.

But I'll still look at the kill count because, well, kill count.

Thanks for the helpful reply.

Edited by Deltavee

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I most definitely understand frustrations. Even with the number of battles I have under my belt, I still jokingly mock-rage when I see someone snag a target I softened up while my next salvo or torpedoes are already en route. In my experience though, my priorities have no particular order. Special events, damage, kills, caps, exp, and wins. - I'll fight for them all, because they're all interrelated. Do the thing that contributes towards a win. If I want to focus on something based on an event or campaign mission, pick the right ship to do the job effectively. If you need another match to elite a ship, or level a captain, or finish an event, or snag first win of the day, then play another match.

 

When in doubt, I didn't ______ because I didn't play well enough. I didn't last hit that ship, take that cap, win that knife-fight or brawl, dodge those torpedoes, etc. because...? I didn't understand where the target's citadels were or lead the target well enough. I didn't properly predict the opponent's maneuver and select shell type or perform evasive maneuvers early enough. I didn't simultaneously micromanage both torpedoes and guns efficiently enough. I didn't react fast enough to fire or pre-aim my guns. I could have maneuvered my ship to get in the cap a little earlier, or stay hidden longer. With that mindset, I always look for something to improve. Even if I played excellently and won, got the most ship and plane kills, landed top of the exp charts, and took the most caps, odds are, there's something in the match I could have done at least a little bit better.


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I am guilty of raging in this game.  Not very often, and not in an insulting, offensive way, but I do rage.  It is never about kills, though.  I want to WIN.  I am very competitive like that.  When someone pulls a complete bonehead that seriously hurts the team (such as leaving a cap seconds before capturing it, or a destroyer chasing an enemy carrier halfway across the map when he should have gotten a nearby, easy cap, etc.), I tend to get angry.  I know it isn't rational.  Sometimes I check myself, but other times my fingers hammer away at the keyboard before I can think better of it.  I'll frequently critique another player's strategy early in the game (why is that cruiser going off completely by himself???)...but I have been improving on keeping my comments to myself, or at least mildly suggestive.  It is their game to play, not mine to play for them, after all.

 

A kill goes toward my ultimate goal of victory.  I might be momentarily and mildly annoyed if someone yanks the kill out from under me that I have been working a couple of minutes for, but that's about it.  It isn't like they shot torpedoes into my back and then said, "why did you get in the way?".


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It is a multi-player team game. There is no kill stealing. Not on WoWs, not on WoT. If it bugs you that others are trying to kill the same target, might want to try a single player game. Anything else is just silly and after years of playing such games, it gets annoying to hear.


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