Did you try to watch Supremacy League Season 3 Finals

[Elo_J_Fudpucker]

I did.. it was.. .unwatchable.  They hid the minimap, and followed players in player view. They very occasionally would zoom out, but for the most part stayed on individuals.

 

​This would be like watching a soccer game from a head cam with no view of the gaming field.

 

​It was a waste of time... I stayed 10 min and left... I then came back for another look and  yeah...useless.

 

​I would really have liked to have watched these matches, but what was the point? Without being able to see a minimap, understanding the scope of the battle wasn't happening for me.

[DasBootcamp]

So, not entirely sure what stream you were watching. But I watched the three I didn't participate in which were Mejash, iChase, and Venom. All three of them did the suicide drop and spectated the game in the free camera while commenting. This allows you to see overheads of smoke and torp angles.

 

As for the map being covered, this is for a variety of reasons. The primary reason being ghosting. Even though the streams are on a 5-minute delay and all the teams are honorable, it's best to have a rule in place to deter even the idea. Secondly, strats are a big "in-house" deal and many teams have very specific ways they set up on a map according to the side they spawn on and the ships they use. If we had replays out there where you could see where each team tried to set up in the first 3 minutes, you could essentially gather intel that would be unbalanced. Most of the intel we get as players and strat callers is from experience playing the team, not from advantages gained via streams.

 

Sorry your viewing experience wasn't enjoyable, but the majority of the feedback was really good and the larger audiences seemed to enjoy having competitive games to watch. Everything we do is a work in progress and we honestly do what we can to make sure the players and the viewers enjoy it. Check back in Season 4 to see if you enjoy it more.

 

- GG Boot | TFA

[atPrick__]

So...

 

Who won?

[DasBootcamp]

TSF won Gold League with 7th fleet in Second. APOC SQ finished Third in Gold. Western Fleet won Silver League with Kntai Joint Forces in second. APOC WP finished Third in Silver.

[Shigure_DD]

They are still trying to work out how to stream the games and to make them fun to watch without giving anyone a unfair advantage... but I have to say Vas and sterling do a real good job.

 

Ps some teams do stream there own games with ts if you look around

[Seaman_Rookie]

I watched the TSF vs Fog game last night -- all 5 games -- on the Mejash / Q stream. 

 

I agree with the OP that the lack of the minimap left me wondering about what I was looking at.  Some of the maps I've played many times, so I could tell where the ships were from the position of the caps and islands.  For the whole picture though, this was completely absent.  Kinda like watching an American Football game without knowing the yardline where the ball is spotted.  Still looks like football, but the flow of the game is lost.

 

I understand the reasoning behind the 5 minute delay, and the reason presented for hiding the minimap.  Still, though, to become more appealing to spectators the presentation would need to be changed.  In football, the announcers view the field position, know the players' stats, and try to analyze and guess strategy calls.  There is no broadcast of communication between a teams' coaches and players, and the announcer is not affiliated with the team but has general knowledge of the game.  Of course, there is nothing being broadcast on TV that would help either team in real-time.

 

For example, in game 5, the announcers mentioned that FOG lost a lot of health in setting up for the A/B cap.  As a spectator, we could see red ships visible (view from the TSF side) but really couldn't tell where the FOG ships were and what they were trying to do.  I couldn't get an appreciation of the cover that TSF used, or how open FOG was. 

 

Perhaps a 20 minute delay (so that game would already be over), with a minimap showing both sides (with some indication of who is spotted and who isn't on both sides), with a commentator who can discuss strategies like NFL commentators can (Mejash / Q did nicely in this regard, but it lost too much without the overhead / minimap)

 

 

[RHINO_Mk_II]

It may not have been the most convenient stream for spectating, but tournaments are held for the players, not the spectators. If it were you playing in the match, you too would advocate for covered minimap and stream delay.

[Brohk]

It may not have been the most convenient stream for spectating, but tournaments are held for the players, not the spectators. If it were you playing in the match, you too would advocate for covered minimap and stream delay.

 

Which is all fine and well if they don't ever intend for it to grow.

[Shigure_DD]

If you guys watched the 2nd seasons finals you should know why they have certain rules in place for streaming the games. The whole rule having the streamers in cvs so that they can kill them selfs was made after that.

[Anumati]

I am sorry to hear that. The mini-map is covered for rules and to hide strategies used by winning teams. This stuff is all planned out before hand and they spent a good amount of time formulating plans of attack, routes, counter attacks. All that stuff could be leaked via the mini-map. If we had a better spectating system I would be all for it.

 

It was fun facing FOG last night and I wish others could have understood the flow of battle better, but I do agree that if you weren't in the TS, so much was kinda left out for the average person. Mejash really needed to work on his ability to spectate better and stop fixating on one person so much. He tended to do that a large amount I noticed.

[Elo_J_Fudpucker]

So, not entirely sure what stream you were watching. But I watched the three I didn't participate in which were Mejash, iChase, and Venom. All three of them did the suicide drop and spectated the game in the free camera while commenting. This allows you to see overheads of smoke and torp angles.

- GG Boot | TFA

I believe there was only one official stream, the one advertised on the WOWS site... yes.. the commentary was good, but with out a frame of reference that matches my own game experience, it was hard to follow

.

 

They are still trying to work out how to stream the games and to make them fun to watch without giving anyone a unfair advantage... but I have to say Vas and sterling do a real good job.

 

Ps some teams do stream there own games with ts if you look around

 

​Yes,, they were great... but again... no mini map means not getting a full picture, and without that...

 

 

Perhaps a 20 minute delay (so that game would already be over), with a minimap showing both sides (with some indication of who is spotted and who isn't on both sides), with a commentator who can discuss strategies like NFL commentators can (Mejash / Q did nicely in this regard, but it lost too much without the overhead / minimap)

 

 

 

This is a good solution. Start matches on the half hour and the broadcast of said match on the hour. Eliminate the need to cover the mini-map at all...

 

It may not have been the most convenient stream for spectating, but tournaments are held for the players, not the spectators. If it were you playing in the match, you too would advocate for covered minimap and stream delay.

 

 

​...then why advertise the match and make a promotion about the matches taking place and that we can all watch on Twitch? This broadcast was for the greater audience.

 

​As others have said.. it is like zooming in on any team sport, if you can't see the whole big picture, the watching becomes boring. Last nights broadcast was about the announcers discussing  the game amongst themselves... I felt cut out pof the conversation.. I couldn't see what they were seeing, so their commentary lost the ability to hold my attention.

 

cheers...

[DasBootcamp]

@Elo_J_Fudpucker There were 4 total streamers, you watched A_Crying_Stipper doing the silver league bronze match. That was the only game with first person view.

 

@Seaman_Rookie A 20-minute delays make it absolutely impossible for the streamers to interact with their chat. 5 minutes makes it difficult as is but fair enough to the players in the league.

 

You have to understand that the mini map is NOTHING like the yellow first down line from football. The mini map is like seeing the teams playbook. Football doesn't have a camera on their playbooks.

 

Here, let me give you some more detail. On each map there are individual islands that ships use to radar. These islands provide cover from artillery and torps while allowing detection ranges into two caps at once. Not ALL teams know these locations and those that do don't necessarily use them. Other teams, Western Fleet for example, do death-ball strategies. They pick a tile that allows them to gather without mass interference from torp area denial so they can move into position together and smoke. Only Western knows these exact locations.

 

Everything from ships, ship builds, spawn adjustments at the start of the game (rng), flanks, ball pushes, area denials, and CV cap movements ALL are different for each team. Showing these on the mini map and leaving them as a vod would make everything a cookie cutter game and take whatever works best and have no variety for competition.

[Elo_J_Fudpucker]

.. and to be clear... I would very much enjoy watching future matches, and encourage all to keep working on it...

[Elo_J_Fudpucker]

@Elo_J_Fudpucker There were 4 total streamers, you watched A_Crying_Stipper doing the silver league bronze match. That was the only game with first person view.

 

@Seaman_Rookie A 20-minute delays make it absolutely impossible for the streamers to interact with their chat. 5 minutes makes it difficult as is but fair enough to the players in the league.

 

You have to understand that the mini map is NOTHING like the yellow first down line from football. The mini map is like seeing the teams playbook. Football doesn't have a camera on their playbooks.

 

​Then it is about the commentators and not the game... which is fine... no worries

 

I am referring to the Twitch broadcast that was advertised on the WoWS website.  I am not into the leagues. I am a casual,(but getting more serious player) ... If they want greater appeal, larger market and attract more players, they should consider a feed that is not based on being a unicum to understand it. I could follow the conversation for the most part, but again... no mini-map makes the broadcast unwatchable... again like being zoomed in on a football field and never seeing the wide receiver making his run, just a close up of when the ball is thrown and then when it is caught.

 

​If the goal is to present a program that is watchable for the game play, it failed in my opinion. If they were making a program about the commentators, then it was a success. ... and this is not a poor reflection on the commentators in any way.. .I am not dissing them.

 

[DasBootcamp]

 

Which is all fine and well if they don't ever intend for it to grow.

 

We definitely intend for it to grow. We all put in a lot of work and these seasons take a LOT of time and commitment. While I speak for Apoc (Vas you bish) on the admin side, we do want the viewing experience to be as pleasurable as possible, we also ask that you understand that without an integrated spectator mode built in there is just no way for it to be perfect. The streamers all have to agree to do this, we have to set it up with WG for promotion (thanks WG!) and we have to do a lot of other stuff admin side. A lot of thought has gone into this, and in order to keep it fair and entertaining, this is what we have found to work best thus far.

 

Now this isn't saying that the system is perfect and we aren't listening to suggestions, we definitely are, we just have some limited tools to do this with. And while we owe massive thanks to the people that help, such as our streamers Mejash, iChase, Venom, and Crying Stripper as well as WG side of Que, we still have to figure out all the ways to get this done fairly with what we have available in the time we have available.

 

As to address the "being unicum to understand" the stream, I do respect that not all players have an intimate knowledge of competitive strats. And if we are going to consider that the streams become more about the commentators, the game in general (not just the league) isn't really large enough to support a new player friendly stream at this point. Even the largest games in the world (think Dota and League of Legends) had years of competitive matches before they had extra stream accounts for players new to the game. In general the appeal of competitive matches are for competitive players with a general understanding of movements and tactics. Though having a new player type stream is definitely something we have down on our list of things to accomplish, at this stage of the game we are lucky to have the support that we do.

[Brohk]

@Elo_J_Fudpucker There were 4 total streamers, you watched A_Crying_Stipper doing the silver league bronze match. That was the only game with first person view.

 

@Seaman_Rookie A 20-minute delays make it absolutely impossible for the streamers to interact with their chat. 5 minutes makes it difficult as is but fair enough to the players in the league.

 

You have to understand that the mini map is NOTHING like the yellow first down line from football. The mini map is like seeing the teams playbook. Football doesn't have a camera on their playbooks.

 

Here, let me give you some more detail. On each map there are individual islands that ships use to radar. These islands provide cover from artillery and torps while allowing detection ranges into two caps at once. Not ALL teams know these locations and those that do don't necessarily use them. Other teams, Western Fleet for example, do death-ball strategies. They pick a tile that allows them to gather without mass interference from torp area denial so they can move into position together and smoke. Only Western knows these exact locations.

 

Everything from ships, ship builds, spawn adjustments at the start of the game (rng), flanks, ball pushes, area denials, and CV cap movements ALL are different for each team. Showing these on the mini map and leaving them as a vod would make everything a cookie cutter game and take whatever works best and have no variety for competition.

 

Which is perfectly understandable but for the spectators, let's stick with the NFL comparisons because it's Sunday after all, not seeing the minimap and getting mostly first person perspective would be like sticking a camera on the helmet of a running back or a middle linebacker and only watching the game through them. 

 

 

We definitely intend for it to grow. We all put in a lot of work and these seasons take a LOT of time and commitment. While I speak for Apoc (Vas you bish) on the admin side, we do want the viewing experience to be as pleasurable as possible, we also ask that you understand that without an integrated spectator mode built in there is just no way for it to be perfect. The streamers all have to agree to do this, we have to set it up with WG for promotion (thanks WG!) and we have to do a lot of other stuff admin side. A lot of thought has gone into this, and in order to keep it fair and entertaining, this is what we have found to work best thus far.

 

Now this isn't saying that the system is perfect and we aren't listening to suggestions, we definitely are, we just have some limited tools to do this with. And while we owe massive thanks to the people that help, such as our streamers Mejash, iChase, Venom, and Crying Stripper as well as WG side of Que, we still have to figure out all the ways to get this done fairly with what we have available in the time we have available.

 

All that hard work is definitely appreciated. I'm not intending to be unduly harsh, but it can be very frustrating to spectate. 

[DasBootcamp]

 

Which is perfectly understandable but for the spectators, let's stick with the NFL comparisons because it's Sunday after all, not seeing the minimap and getting mostly first person perspective would be like sticking a camera on the helmet of a running back or a middle linebacker and only watching the game through them. 

 

 

All that hard work is definitely appreciated. I'm not intending to be unduly harsh, but it can be very frustrating to spectate. 

 

The first person perspective was only one stream, a crying stripper, who did the match for Bronze of Silver League. He was kind enough to do it at literally a last minute request due to the fact that all games happened at the same time. This means that Mejash, iChase, and Venom (all who normally do the broadcasts) were doing one of the other 4 games. This is a limit of the people who can do these streams and are also willing.

​

[Shigure_DD]

Best ts comment "everyone shoot a crying stripper" 

[DasBootcamp]

Best ts comment "everyone shoot a crying stripper" 

 

​I think he did a good job, especially for being last minute. We were happy to have him stream for us. I love strippers ....stream. q8^)

[Sir_Godz]

you forgot to mention the 5 minute delay which ensured what limited perspective of the mystery map was truly dysfunctional to understand.

 

Commentary was fine but no mini map??? And why because they were worried about stream sniping? Isn't that what the stupid delay which ruins makes the commentary irrelevant is supposed to accomplish?

 

Who is stream sniping? the competitors?

 

It's supposed to be a competition. If they think teams are cheating then just ban them or cancel the event entirely when you catch them.

[HKRevolutionOfOurTime]

Honestly it's almost like the SL admins want to turn the NA competitive scene into a gated community.

[Shigure_DD]

its the other way Around if you had a team in SL you know how hard APOC works to put SL on, and they are always asking everyone how to make it better.... they are doing the best they can with the tools WG gives us.

[Destroyer_KuroshioKai]

Teams spend a lot of time researching positions of advantage on the maps.  The covered mini map is needed to conceal these locations for future battles on the same map.  The mini map is quite literally the play book for a team.  I'm hoping that WG will have a spectator mode that blocks ship locations but displays the map for the field of view reference.

 

I agree it is difficult for the spectator to get there bearings on the map, but I suspect this has been the best compromise for the teams, the commentators, and the spectators until WG can get a working spectator mode for the streamers.  Competitive play on WoWs is in it's infancy right now unfortunately.  For example every player in a comp needs to mod the game to enable training room. 

 

 

[Elo_J_Fudpucker]

Teams spend a lot of time researching positions of advantage on the maps.  The covered mini map is needed to conceal these locations for future battles on the same map.  The mini map is quite literally the play book for a team.  I'm hoping that WG will have a spectator mode that blocks ship locations but displays the map for the field of view reference.

 

I agree it is difficult for the spectator to get there bearings on the map, but I suspect this has been the best compromise for the teams, the commentators, and the spectators until WG can get a working spectator mode for the streamers.  Competitive play on WoWs is in it's infancy right now unfortunately.  For example every player in a comp needs to mod the game to enable training room. 

 

 

 

Then slap 30 minutes delay on .. or tape them for later broadcast... I understand the need to conceal plans from the other side, it has to be there, but again...               this thread is about the official stream that was promoted thru WG... ... and without the global reference that the minimap gives, it is not an enjoyable broadcast.

 

If other streams were running.. .without covering the minimap, then what is the point of covering in the SL broadcast?????? If the idea is to prevent cheating why are competitors allowed to send their own streams?

 

The reason I bring al this up is I would like to watch matches, and I want to encourage those creating them to do so in a more digestible manner.

 

anywho... horse is dead... thanks for listening

[MelodyMP]

Teams spend a lot of time researching positions of advantage on the maps.  The covered mini map is needed to conceal these locations for future battles on the same map.  The mini map is quite literally the play book for a team.  I'm hoping that WG will have a spectator mode that blocks ship locations but displays the map for the field of view reference.

 

I agree it is difficult for the spectator to get there bearings on the map, but I suspect this has been the best compromise for the teams, the commentators, and the spectators until WG can get a working spectator mode for the streamers.  Competitive play on WoWs is in it's infancy right now unfortunately.  For example every player in a comp needs to mod the game to enable training room. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but this rationale doesn't hold water. There's nothing displayed on the minimap that isn't already adequately displayed by looking at the ship positions relative to the islands already clearly in view on the stream.for experienced teams supposedly studying streams later on for this information. These guys know the maps, they can see who is setting up where on a stream. They already have access to this knowledge/intel if they want it. If you're the guy running one of these teams, you really trying to tell me they can't glean this "secret" info by what's already being shown? Hogwash.

 

For the viewers, however, in real time, and with less knowledge of the various maps, it is indeed crippling to the ability to understand what is going on. As others have said, if you want this to become something larger, helping the viewer by showing the minimap during the match is going to be a must.

 

The broadcasters being able to selectively show either both sides, or only what one side can see (to illustrate who's visible and who isn't) is also a must, though I expect the client currently doesn't allow that.