Hatsuharu is better than Fubuki?

[Super_Dreadnought]

I 've been looking at the 2 week stats for tier 6 DDs, which is roughly how long the new IJN DDs have been out for...

... and scratching my head on why Fubuki was struggling so much whilst Hatsuharu seemed to be punching above her weight. The general reputation of both ships would have one believe that Fubuki is awesome, whilst Hatsuharu is meant to be utterly unplayable. I knew that a lot of skilled players were grinding through Hatsuharu to get to Shiratsuyu and Akizuki, but surely Fubuki couldn't have been abandoned to the potatoes right?

 

So I began looking at my Hatsuharu and Fubuki side by side more closely. No camo, no captain, no flags, same modules (I'm not demounting them for 25 doubloons each).

 

I've not noticed this before, but Hatsuharu is almost better at everything. Hatsuharu has:

 

1. faster rate of fire

2. faster turret traverse

3. better gun dispersion

4. better, longer range AA thanks to main guns being DP

5. faster max speed

6. lower turning radius

7. better rudder shift

8. better concealment

9. slightly smaller target than Fubuki

 

All Fubuki does better is:

1. slightly more gun range

2. slightly higher health, kinda counteracted by being easier to hit.

3. more torps.

 

 

It would appear to me that Fubuki's only significant trick is to throw out more torps,  Hatsuharu seems overall the more flexible and comfortable ship to sail. She's got greater stealth, maneuverability, and speed to get to where she needs to be, probably for higher quality torpedo runs. Better guns for when she needs it, and the stronger ability to actually shoot down a scout plane from time to time. Plus a better ability to respond to danger and escape.

 

 

So is it just me missing something or did Wargaming hammer Fubuki harder than quite a few of us thought during the rebalance? Bucky seems to be making quite a sacrifice for 3 more torp launchers.

[HKRevolutionOfOurTime]

My opinion is that players at that tier don't know how to torp effectively. It's tier 6 after all.

 

Fubuki manages a lower torp hit ratio even though it has more torps.

[TenguBlade]

I 've been looking at the 2 week stats for tier 6 DDs, which is roughly how long the new IJN DDs have been out for...

... and scratching my head on why Fubuki was struggling so much whilst Hatsuharu seemed to be punching above her weight. The general reputation of both ships would have one believe that Fubuki is awesome, whilst Hatsuharu is meant to be utterly unplayable. I knew that a lot of skilled players were grinding through Hatsuharu to get to Shiratsuyu and Akizuki, but surely Fubuki couldn't have been abandoned to the potatoes right?

 

So I began looking at my Hatsuharu and Fubuki side by side more closely. No camo, no captain, no flags, same modules (I'm not demounting them for 25 doubloons each).

 

I've not noticed this before, but Hatsuharu is almost better at everything. Hatsuharu has:

 

1. faster rate of fire

2. faster turret traverse

3. better gun dispersion

4. better, longer range AA thanks to main guns being DP

5. faster max speed

6. lower turning radius

7. better rudder shift

8. better concealment

9. slightly smaller target than Fubuki

 

All Fubuki does better is:

1. slightly more gun range

2. slightly higher health, kinda counteracted by being easier to hit.

3. more torps.

 

 

It would appear to me that Fubuki's only significant trick is to throw out more torps,  Hatsuharu seems overall the more flexible and comfortable ship to sail. She's got greater stealth, maneuverability, and speed to get to where she needs to be, probably for higher quality torpedo runs. Better guns for when she needs it, and the stronger ability to actually shoot down a scout plane from time to time. Plus a better ability to respond to danger and escape.

 

 

So is it just me missing something or did Wargaming hammer Fubuki harder than quite a few of us thought during the rebalance? Bucky seems to be making quite a sacrifice for 3 more torp launchers.

Two things you're missing.

 

One: Fubuki is being played by pretty much only the trash that still haven't gotten past T6, i.e. nobody/very few people who are actually good at using IJN DDs.  Hatsuharu is the opposite, because of her position in the alternate line.

 

Two: The stock grind is far more painful on Fubuki because of her larger size, smaller main battery (and thus heavier reliance on torpedoes), and overall worse handling.  The worse it is, the more the stats drag because it takes more battles to get out of it - especially since most people are trying to save Free XP for Missouri.

[tooboku]

Makes sense. Fubuki actually did get nerfed. She's not a gunboat anymore. The replacement captain I got with her went for SE instead of AFT. They switched her to the old C hull which only had two turrets.

She's not going to be firing her guns often anymore since she doesn't have stealth fire without a trained captain.

 

Going back to Fubuki at tier 6 was like learning how to use Mutsuki all over again... like the old meta in 0.5.1... which I can appreciate but it really feels like I just broke up with my high school sweetheart.

[Super_Dreadnought]

Two things you're missing.

 

One: Fubuki is being played by pretty much only the trash that still haven't gotten past T6, i.e. nobody/very few people who are actually good at using IJN DDs.  Hatsuharu is the opposite, because of her position in the alternate line.

 

Two: The stock grind is far more painful on Fubuki because of her larger size, smaller main battery (and thus heavier reliance on torpedoes), and overall worse handling.  The worse it is, the more the stats drag because it takes more battles to get out of it - especially since most people are trying to save Free XP for Missouri.

 

Whilst that may explain why Fubuki's average stats are really struggling. What I'm really wondering though is if Hatsuharu can be considered the better T6 which probably wasn't what quite a few were expecting when both ships got retiered. It would appear to me that once fully upgraded, that Hatsuharu is simply the better handling platform despite having less torps.

[MrDeaf]

Hatsu is still quite bad.

It needs the 5s reload booster in another slot to make life better.

If not, at the very least, it needs 10km gun range.

 

As for the reasons, if you look at old Mutsuki and compare the stats with new Hatsuharu. New Hatsuharu is doing around 4000 more damage and around 3% better WR.

But if you factor in the better players playing through it first, then it means both New Hatsuharu and New Fubuki are even worse than old Mutsuki.

[Kapitan_Wuff]

More good players going back to Hatsu to grind up the new line vs players getting there hands on the Fubuki for the first time not knowing what their doing. 

[TenguBlade]

Whilst that may explain why Fubuki's average stats are really struggling. What I'm really wondering though is if Hatsuharu can be considered the better T6 which probably wasn't what quite a few were expecting when both ships got retiered. It would appear to me that once fully upgraded, that Hatsuharu is simply the better handling platform despite having less torps.

Far from it, Fubuki is much better.  I didn't see any value in keeping mine around, but before I sold her I tested her against my Hatsuharu as soon as I had the latter fully-upgraded.  The extra torp launcher is far more valuable than 1.5 knots of speed, slightly better rudder shift/turning circle, and 0.5km of concealment once you don't need to rely on any of those to make torpedo runs, and Fubuki retains her HP advantage.  The two get the same gun batteries too once they're both fully-upgraded: Hatsuharu has to lose her gun to get 10km torps.

 

To float an idea, if they gave Hatsuharu her as-built configuration as the stock hull and the current A hull as the B hull, then she would be about even with Fubuki on stock and top configs.  On the stock hull, Hatsuharu in this guise would have 1 more gun with the same torpedo armament, but even less HP than her current stock hull, and probably similar/worse concealment since her silhouette is taller.  Once upgraded, she reverts to her current concealment, and gets 10km torpedoes, at the cost of 1 torpedo launcher in top form.

[MrDeaf]

This is what those DDs were doing back in Oct. 16th, 2016

T6 Mutsuki 49.06%, 22443dmg

T7 Hatsuharu 48.78%, 23396dmg

T8 Fubuki 49.39%, 30833dmg

Yes, they were scoring that badly and were one of the worst three in their tiers.

 

I also noticed that Akatsuki is doing quite badly as well, although I'm not entirely sure if this is because CE Shiratsuyus are eating into Mahan and Akatsuki's WR.

As of Dec. 10th, 2016

T7 Shiratsuyu 57.12%, 38919dmg

T7 Akatsuki 48.88%, 26276dmg

T7 Mahan 48.82%, 21467dmg

 

So Akatsuki is most definitely an improvement over Hatsuharu, but it still needs a bit more help.

[TenguBlade]

So Akatsuki is most definitely an improvement over Hatsuharu, but it still needs a bit more help.

I haven't taken mine into Random battles yet, but in Co-Ops I'll routinely score 50k+ damage with her - and this is with the highly-unfavorable anti-DD AI to boot.  She's way better that the old Hatsuharu was in every regard.

[Histopicker]

One: Fubuki is being played by pretty much only the trash that still haven't gotten past T6,

 

​Pretty rude don't you think! Were you trash at T6?

[TenguBlade]

​Pretty rude don't you think! Were you trash at T6?

Yes.

[Rouxi]

 

​Pretty rude don't you think! Were you trash at T6?

 

Can confirm, I was trash at t6. Farragut was my first t6 ship go look up my stats for proof.

[Histopicker]

Yes.

 

fair enough. I am still very much trash but, I have fun.

[Dodgy_Cookies]

Objectively Fubuki is just the better ship due to the extra launcher. Gun and Hull performance are not better enough to offset the loss of the extra launcher.

 

I agree with what others have said about the skill gap between current Fubuki drivers and Hatsuharu drivers. Just look at the Main Battery Hit percentages on what are nearly identical guns at DD ranges.

 

 

[tooboku]

For argument's sake, having more launchers doesn't necessarily make a better torpedo boat. You can drop torpedoes adequately with an Akizuki if you needed to. That said, for her tier she Fubuki is okay. She's workable but I do miss her Tier 8  5.5km concealment shenanigans. There is a learning curve that is a little more difficult with T6 Fubuki than T6 Hatsuharu. There is lot more emphasis with planning ahead and using islands to avoid detection in Fubuki. 

[MrDeaf]

For argument's sake, having more launchers doesn't necessarily make a better torpedo boat. You can drop torpedoes adequately with an Akizuki if you needed to. That said, for her tier she Fubuki is okay. She's workable but I do miss her Tier 8  5.5km concealment shenanigans. There is a learning curve that is a little more difficult with T6 Fubuki than T6 Hatsuharu. There is lot more emphasis with planning ahead and using islands to avoid detection in Fubuki. 

 

I see Hatsuharu has 8% torpedo hit rate, which indicates that many people are YOLO torping with it

Fubuki, on the other hand, has 6% torpedo hit rate, which means people are using it the traditional way, with longer ranges.

[Sabot_100]

 

 

I see Hatsuharu has 8% torpedo hit rate, which indicates that many people are YOLO torping with it

 

Fubuki, on the other hand, has 6% torpedo hit rate, which means people are using it the traditional way, with longer ranges.

 

It may also indicate that the Hatsu players are better shots (better able to read the target) which probably means more experienced players.

[centarina]

I think it is better players more than anything.  I went through the whole hatsu grind with stock hull and 6km torps.  did alright with it at 30k dmg avg.   but most do run 10km torps.  i enjoyed hatsu, but shiratsu rocks.   

[Seraphil]

 

I see Hatsuharu has 8% torpedo hit rate, which indicates that many people are YOLO torping with it

Fubuki, on the other hand, has 6% torpedo hit rate, which means people are using it the traditional way, with longer ranges.

 

Maybe for a lot of players, they feel they need to be more reserved with Hatsuharu's torpedoes since she only has two triple launchers.  While with Fubuki, the third launcher gives a bit of a safety net so people might be dumping torps even when it's not an optimal launch.

 

But I dunno lol my Hatsuharu and Fubuki stats are the polar opposite of the server average.  I'm crushing it in Fubuki and only towing the line in Hatsuharu.

[dvang]

I loved the Fubuki at T8.  It was probably my favorite ship in WoWS before the split.  I haven't played it much afterwards, since it was nerfed and downtiered. Besides the fact that I had to endure the painful grind that was the Hatsuharu in order to get to the new line.  So, yeah, I am one of those experienced players who spent a bunch of time in the Hatsu, doing well enough (but not really enjoying the ship) and therefore buffing its stats while not playing the new Fubuki and buffing its stats.