Akizuki questions

[geser98]

I got this boat the day 0.5.15 went live - just free-xp'd my way and so far it's been hit and miss. I can have good games and I have some very [edited] ones in almost equal proportion...and also that time when I started playing her without installing any upgrades 

 

Just wanted to check a few things:

 

1) HE... is it useful at all?

2) Right now I have both AFT and DE on my captain. Is it any better to drop DE and get CE instead?

3) Concealment Mod 1 >> Steering Gears Mod 3?

 

[Lert]

Read this.

 

HE is useful for fires. Against T8+ you're gonna farm shatters and not do direct damage with it. I run AFT and DE. Don't be afraid to switch to AP for close range destroyers and cruiser / battleship superstructure.

[saagri]

1. HE can barely pen things but useful for fires and knocking out modules. T8+ BB's are immune to HE. No cruiser super structure is immune to HE. Lower tier DD's can be penned by HE but not all. Do your homework and look at which ships have more than 16mm of armor (max your HE can pen) and where. Otherwise switch to AP and aim for superstructure.

2. I recommend AFT and CE

3. Concealment is so useful in this ship. You can fire and be invisible past certain ranges.

[geser98]

Read this.

 

HE is useful for fires. Against T8+ you're gonna farm shatters and not do direct damage with it. I run AFT and DE. Don't be afraid to switch to AP for close range destroyers and cruiser / battleship superstructure.

 

Yeah, after a few tries I've switched almost completely to AP. I use HE to set a fire or two and then go with AP the rest of the way or sometimes not even bother with fires. I've noticed I have a lot of HE bounces and zero-damage hits even on angled DDs. Is it worth using AP on them?

 

 

[Lert]

Try and see.

[SkyRail]

don't expect HE doing any direct damage, you can hit a target 100 times and still do 0 damage.

The way Akizuki plays reminds me of Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen.

you can start fire with HE, but you need some luck for that. AP do some awesome damage when your target is boardside, but will do very minimum danage if they angle.

torps is useful...well 10km Type 93 pack some mean punch.

 

I put CE on my Akizuki captain just so I can get 5.9km detection so that I can at least contest cap and spot most USN and Russian DD before they spot me.

[MashuKyrielight]

I got this boat the day 0.5.15 went live - just free-xp'd my way and so far it's been hit and miss. I can have good games and I have some very [edited] ones in almost equal proportion...and also that time when I started playing her without installing any upgrades 

 

Just wanted to check a few things:

 

1) HE... is it useful at all?

2) Right now I have both AFT and DE on my captain. Is it any better to drop DE and get CE instead?

3) Concealment Mod 1 >> Steering Gears Mod 3?

 

 

Only use it if you absolutely cannot damage with armour piercing.

 

I'd drop DE and pick up AFT and CE. 12.2 km - 9.6 km stealth fire is ridiculously good if you can hit the superstructure.

 

Concealment Mod for sure.

 

 

[saagri]

 

Yeah, after a few tries I've switched almost completely to AP. I use HE to set a fire or two and then go with AP the rest of the way or sometimes not even bother with fires. I've noticed I have a lot of HE bounces and zero-damage hits even on angled DDs. Is it worth using AP on them?

 

 

 

All T8+ DD's are immune to HE unless you hit superstructure. AP on angled DD's will bounce. Best bet is to fire HE and knock out modules/set fires until they turn broadside.

[saagri]

 

Only use it if you absolutely cannot damage with armour piercing.

 

I'd drop DE and pick up AFT and CE. 12.2 km - 9.6 km stealth fire is ridiculously good if you can hit the superstructure.

 

Concealment Mod for sure.

 

 

 

With both CE and Concealment module the ship can invisifire starting at 8.9km

[geser98]

Thanks for replies guys! 

[MrDeaf]

 

With both CE and Concealment module the ship can invisifire starting at 8.9km

 

Akizuki can even invisifire her AA.

like 6.2km air detection range and 7.2km AA without CE

with CE, it goes down to 5.6, I think.

[req_]

I got this boat the day 0.5.15 went live - just free-xp'd my way and so far it's been hit and miss. I can have good games and I have some very [edited] ones in almost equal proportion...and also that time when I started playing her without installing any upgrades 

 

Just wanted to check a few things:

 

1) HE... is it useful at all?

 

Using HE on Akizuki is a test of the captain's knowledge of ship anatomy.  Basic HE rounds(ie. everything but KM BB HE) in this game automagically shatters against anything greater than 1/6 of their shell caliber.  This means than any module that has greater than 16mm of armor is invincible against damage from Akizuki's HE rounds.

 

Many players experience this as a sort of wall between Tier 7 and Tier 8 DD hull armor and BB superstructure upgrades from 13mm to 16mm of armor - this also makes Akizuki magically OP against anything lower tier than herself.  This rough guideline appears to be followed by many players fighting in and against Akizuki, but I feel that this is mostly rote knowledge without really understanding HE penetration mechanics.

 

For example, many DD players that have a vague idea that they can bounce Akizuki shells will attempt to angle against her, which will stop her AP rounds from tearing them apart.  Due to certain videos, they also mistakenly believe that they are immune to HE as well, but that's not really the case if you know where to aim on each ship.  A DD angled towards you still has a gigantic target in the form of her bridge tower and forward superstructure - this should be fairly easy to hit inside 10km and basically a free target inside 6km since they are maintaining their angle by travelling in a mostly straight line.  If they are angled away from you, they are presenting both their superstructure and deck - unlike DD hull armor, deck plating only counts as 13mm of armor.  VMF DD are in a worse position than USN DD at close-mid range as in addition to sharing the same superstructure/deck armor rating, their guns also only have 13mm of armor(IJN/USN DD have 20mm of gun armor...except Akizuki for some reasontop) - VMF DD that try to angle at these ranges usually end up with disabled guns and get pummeled without being able to trade at all.  Akizuki's size also is something that is severely underestimated - the great majority of players believe that they are angling against a single source of damage...but while you may be angled against one set of guns, the other set can still reach the soft parts of your ship or just pen you with AP outright.

 

That being said, Akizuki is a not a knife fighter due to her having the maneuverability of a KM CA and the drift of a RN CL - you are absolutely unable to maneuver in close-quarters combat or anywhere littered with obstacles.  I've had crazy duels where BB turned inside of my own turning circle and I was unable to match the turn.  She is an escort through and through, and her strength lies in being a nasty invisible bouncer with unparalleled trading ability during skirmish/standoff.  My first 100-ish matches in Akizuki consisted of my trying to make her work as a CQC ship, which met with far more failure than success.  If you must contest caps, you are far better off acting in support of other DD rather than trying to get into people's faces.

 

Light Cruisers are in the same boat as DD, for the most part - none of the CL in the game have thick enough superstructure armor to stop 100mm HE shells.  CA offer various results - IJN/KM/VMF and mid-tier USN CA have weak superstructure armor while Baltimore and Des Moines are much harder to get anything to stick to.  Moskva is essentially battlecruiser, so she should be treated the same as a BB.

 

BB have the same armor shift in their superstructure as DD do with their hulls going from T7 to T8, but fortunately their superstructure tends to get far more substantial.  Unless you are gambling for fires, you should just stick to AP against T8+ BB - broadsides deal upwards to 5k on upper hull armor at close range, stealthfire ranges offer upwards to 4k.  Central-upper superstructure cannot be angled, so no matter which way they turn, you can still consistently hit for ~2k per volley against a mid-range target.  I think the sole exception to this is Izumo, which has about a thong's worth of superstructure compared to every other BB past Tier 4.  Fortunately, there aren't many of those around.

 

2) Right now I have both AFT and DE on my captain. Is it any better to drop DE and get CE instead?

 

Some people run 4/4/4 and try to play Akizuki like a VMF DD, but I feel that she should run the standard IJN DD harassment build with BFT/AFT/CE.  She doesn't have remotely close to the speed or maneuverability of VMF DD, which means you cannot disengage at will if someone latches onto you.  Her DP guns will also stealth fire against air targets between 6-7.2km away, but that's simply a nuisance to a T8-10 CV player rather than an actual threat.  On a related note, despite being a purpose-built AA platform, Akizuki has no Defensive Fire which makes her the easiest kill in the entire game to date for any high-tier CV that actually goes after her.  I think this will become a trend as Akizuki can build up several dozen plane kills if left alone over the course of an entire match - CV players are better off deleting her at the start of the match as a preventative measure.

 

 3) Concealment Mod 1 >> Steering Gears Mod 3?

 

Concealment, hands down.  Nothing will save you from Akizuki's German turning circle and British drift, so it's better to just be as stealthy as possible.  Being able to stealth-fire closer or freely maneuver for close-range broadsides against larger ships is absolutely invaluable.  This works against BB too - you can do ~50k damage to a broadside Yamato at close range with AP alone in the time it takes for them to reload once.  Crap luck with secondaries may cut that particular adventure short, though.

 

Keep in mind that the new commander skills are still in the works.  Out of the 'leaked' skills from mid-November, there are a handful of game changers for Akizuki(especially HEAP).

[MrDeaf]

...

Some people run 4/4/4 and try to play Akizuki like a VMF DD, but I feel that she should run the standard IJN DD harassment build with BFT/AFT/CE.  She doesn't have remotely close to the speed or maneuverability of VMF DD, which means you cannot disengage at will if someone latches onto you.  Her DP guns will also stealth fire against air targets between 6-7.2km away, but that's simply a nuisance to a T8-10 CV player rather than an actual threat.  On a related note, despite being a purpose-built AA platform, Akizuki has no Defensive Fire which makes her the easiest kill in the entire game to date for any high-tier CV that actually goes after her.  I think this will become a trend as Akizuki can build up several dozen plane kills if left alone over the course of an entire match - CV players are better off deleting her at the start of the match as a preventative measure.

 

Keep in mind that the new commander skills are still in the works.  Out of the 'leaked' skills from mid-November, there are a handful of game changers for Akizuki(especially HEAP).

 

Well written and good assessment.

The only part I take issue with, is that Akizuki is very annoying with 4/4/4, but not your typical VMF 4/4/4/ of DE/AFT/SE, but rather, DE/AFT/MFCAA

DE/AFT is obvious.

MFCAA is not always useful, like when there are no CVs in the match, but it does allow your AA to hit for +130%, which equals to 232DPS@7.2km and 187DPS@4.4km. (419DPS combined)

Without MFCAA, this only does 131DPS@7.2km and 96DPS@4.4km (227DPS combined)

This has enough DPS to knockout bombers decently quickly, unless they are T10 bombers.

 

T8 bomber: roughly 1700HP

T9 bomber: roughly 1900HP

T10 bomber: roughly 2100HP

 

419 / 1700 = 24.6% chance of shooting down per sec

419 / 1900 = 22.1% chance of shooting down per sec

419 / 2100 = 19.6% chance of shooting down per sec

[Gaishu_Isshoku]

 

Well written and good assessment.

The only part I take issue with, is that Akizuki is very annoying with 4/4/4, but not your typical VMF 4/4/4/ of DE/AFT/SE, but rather, DE/AFT/MFCAA

DE/AFT is obvious.

MFCAA is not always useful, like when there are no CVs in the match, but it does allow your AA to hit for +130%, which equals to 232DPS@7.2km and 187DPS@4.4km. (419DPS combined)

Without MFCAA, this only does 131DPS@7.2km and 96DPS@4.4km (227DPS combined)

This has enough DPS to knockout bombers decently quickly, unless they are T10 bombers.

 

T8 bomber: roughly 1700HP

T9 bomber: roughly 1900HP

T10 bomber: roughly 2100HP

 

419 / 1700 = 24.6% chance of shooting down per sec

419 / 1900 = 22.1% chance of shooting down per sec

419 / 2100 = 19.6% chance of shooting down per sec

 

I agree as well with regards to the 3x4 build. I personally believe that DE and MFCAA offer much more substantial benefits than another .7km off your concealment does; DE improves your fire starting by a huge 60%. This turns your HE from an annoyance to being one of the best fire starters in tier, which is needed considering Akizuki's inability to directly damage most enemies with her HE. MFCAA is not only useful for self protection, but combined with your long range and low concealment essentially gives your friendly CV a surprise "I win" button for fighter duels as well as softening up strike packages meant for friendly ships.

 

Minor correction on MFCAA: it only gives a bonus to the 7.2km AA bubble, so something like ~325 DPS combined is what you should be seeing.

[saagri]

The problem with DE is that it is only useful when firing HE. At T8 it can still take a long time to set a fire. One particularly bad string of shots I remember was 80 hits and nothing. Even with DE. 

 

AA is useful but lack of CV's and all that. 

 

AFT is of course universally important. 

 

CE is great because your concealment becomes the same as the stealthy T10 DD's. It is useful if you want to try to contest caps or otherwise get into fights with other DD's. While .7km difference doesn't seem like much, it can give the edge in a DD vs. DD fight that you need. This ship isn't fast, so to compensate I feel like it must be stealthy. Of course different playstyles and all that. So if a build works for you, go for it. 

[req_]

The problem with throwing out AA numbers with Akizuki is that when people see those numbers they tend to think "'as a DD this is crazy/OP".  To me this is extremely illogical.  The effectiveness of the armament on a ship is determined by exactly that - not the class of ship.  Going between classes of ship with the same armaments shouldn't make one believe that one should be more powerful than the other.  AA armaments on a DD have exactly the same base effectiveness as AA armaments on any other class of ship; it can only be viewed as OP/UP if this wasn't the case...but it is.

 

If left alone, Akizuki can make non-insignificant contributions to AA as an escort over the course of the entire game.  However, you should also view things from the perspective of a CV player.  There are 3 main criteria as a CV player in target selection:

 

• Strength of AA fields in the area of the target
• Presence of Defensive Fire
• Damage efficiency(ie. where can I put my potential damage to the best use to take guns out of a fight or farm damage or both)

 

Every other AA escort in the game has a toolset that combines to make them a highly unattractive target for CVs and a deterring force against airstrikes in their AA field.  They have strong enough AA to reliably shoot down several planes in the event of a strike and DF panics the surviving planes when they bomb and allows them to maneuver between torpedoes - usually leaving them mostly unscathed from an air strike.

 

Battleships generally have strong enough AA to reliably shoot down incoming aircraft in addition to the presence of nearby cruisers and other BB.  CV will not willingly attack AA deathballs; if they do a BB is sturdy enough to withstand multiple sorties against it as long as it doesn't isolate itself.

 

The DD aside Akizuki have a variety of traits that can make them unattractive targets for air strikes.  

 

Even though their turning radius is not the best, the speed of VMF DD can make placing drops difficult; it certainly gives the DD captain more leeway to maneuver because the drop must be set much further ahead of any other ship.  

 

USN DD are extremely maneuverable and have tight turning circles(due to excellent engine power:length:displacement ratios) in addition to long-lasting smoke and the option of having Defensive Fire.  This makes a good USN DD that has cooldowns available almost impossible to strike with aircraft.

 

IJN DD past tier 5 become closer to light cruisers, but all of them maintain enough speed and maneuverability to juke airstrikes and comb torpedoes semi-reliably.  They have effectively worthless AA unless specifically taking modules/skills that boost it.

 

Akizuki, on the other hand, is a purpose-built AA platform which has the length and anemic engine power that results in a huge turning circle with massive drift(how propulsion physics are modeled in WoWS also result in a slew of other issues on top of that).  She lacks the maneuverability of other DD, doesn't have DF to panic bomber squadrons and does not have enough HP to survive said un-panicked squadrons.  So while she does have respectable base AA DPS at equivalent tier, she lacks everything else that goes into making her unattractive as a target for planes or as a deterrent against capital ship strikes as an escort.  Any half-decent CV player will more than willingly trade 1-2 aircraft for an easy deletion - sinking an Akizuki is probably the most effective use of bomber squadrons in the entire game.  To survive as this ship against a good CV player, you basically rely on other escorts for survival and on your stealth in order to minimize risk of having bombers committed on you.

 

As an escort/picket oriented player, I want my escort to be effective as such.  At the moment she performs well against surface threats but does not present escort-level deterrence for the fleet against air threats(which she was built for in the first place).  It's a very strange reversal of strengths, which I am actually mostly thankful for with the meagre CV population in the current meta...but the idea that a purpose-built AA escort also happens to be by far the easiest kill for planes doesn't sit well with me on a fundamental level.

[MrDeaf]

The long range AA on Akizuki is equal to Ibuki, and only slightly behind Baltimore and Cleveland, if they aren't using DF.

It's only when you get into medium and close range AA, does Akizuki fall behind.

 

At equal tiers, Kutuzov is champion of AA.

 

What makes Akizuki's AA good, is that CVs can't perma spot you.

[saagri]

Akizuki's AA to me occupies a weird middle ground. It's pretty good on it's own but without Defensive AA Fire it lags behind.

 

In the land of video gaming and min-maxing the crap out of everything, if it isn't the best, it's bad. With the limited number of CV's in queue it is even harder to justify a full AA build. 

[req_]

What makes Akizuki's AA good, is that CVs can't perma spot you.

 

What makes CV spotting so valuable against most DD is the fact that you cannot otherwise easily spot/hunt them because they are faster than you and can stay at arm's length indefinitely while pummeling you with their brand of artillery.  You're also instantly marking any torpedo spreads that they decide to throw at your allies.

 

With Akizuki, however, you just need to know approximately which way she is going and 80% of the ships that she encounters in matches can run her down with their superior speed.

[MrDeaf]

 

What makes CV spotting so valuable against most DD is the fact that you cannot otherwise easily spot/hunt them because they are faster than you and can stay at arm's length indefinitely while pummeling you with their brand of artillery.  You're also instantly marking any torpedo spreads that they decide to throw at your allies.

 

With Akizuki, however, you just need to know approximately which way she is going and 80% of the ships that she encounters in matches can run her down with their superior speed.

 

That's why it's important to have a BB nearby.

Also, in an actual game, most people don't push into you, because they don't like being wailed on by a constant stream of shells.

 

BBs are 100% incapable of pursuing you. No, not even Iowa can run you down, despite having the same top speed.

The only real threat comes from a DD+CL, or CE Belfast

[req_]

 

That's why it's important to have a BB nearby.

Also, in an actual game, most people don't push into you, because they don't like being wailed on by a constant stream of shells.

 

BBs are 100% incapable of pursuing you. No, not even Iowa can run you down, despite having the same top speed.

The only real threat comes from a DD+CL, or CE Belfast

 

Well, we're talking about CV permaspotting here, which generally only happens if the DD is far out of the reach of friendly ships and presenting the threat of torpedoes to your flank or sneaking around and capping/harassing.  In an actual game, no one's going to hover a plane over a DD if they are in range of heavier ships.

 

Also, if you are screening with Akizuki, it's pretty much a coin flip whether the opposing screen pushes into you - they either gamble that they can angle in and survive while maneuvering while their line kills you off, or skitter away to safety to avoid shells raining down on them(or smoke and bait MLG torps).  The ball rests solely in their court, you can really do nothing but react accordingly because you have neither the speed or concealment to dictate engagements against other same tier or higher DD in this situation.