The Biggest WW2 Gun Battle that Never Happened

[Tigertracks]

During the Battle of Leyte Gulf Adm Bill Halsey took his carriers away from the landing fleet to attack the Japanese carriers, falling for the IJN's ruse.  Ultimately the Americans beat back the Japanes heavy forces but not without suffering some unnecesarry losses.   Had Halsey done the smart thing and dispatched his BB's to intercept the Japanese off Samar, the result would have been a match between the Japanese and American battleships, the result of which we can only conjecture.  A brief description of the incident:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....icism_of_Halsey

[Carrier_Enterprise]

That would indeed been an epic battle... :Smile_amazed:

[Crazy_Cossack]

Dreadnought vs Dreadnought!

:Smile_popcorn:

:Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:  :Smile_izmena:

[RMS_Gigantic]

... I hope that when the game launches, we can simulate such a battle in a training room or something!

[mr3awsome]

Affirmative!

[Lance1978]

Considering that at the battle of Samar the yanks beat the japs grand fleet (including Yamato) with a handful of destroyers and escort destroyers firing peashooters, one can only stipulate that had the yanks had their BBs around, they would've sent  the japs their arses back on a plate.

 

The japs would've fought both the american BB's (with assisted artilery control unlike the japs) and the aircraft from Taffy 1,2,3. Most likely the entire japanese fleet would've been obliterated.

[thehorn]

i would like that very much

[Snakehead1234]

Lance1978, on 22 October 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Considering that at the battle of Samar the yanks beat the japs grand fleet (including Yamato) with a handful of destroyers and escort destroyers firing peashooters, one can only stipulate that had the yanks had their BBs around, they would've sent  the japs their arses back on a plate.

The japs would've fought both the american BB's (with assisted artilery control unlike the japs) and the aircraft from Taffy 1,2,3. Most likely the entire japanese fleet would've been obliterated.

Not necessarily the Japanese only retreated because they thought the Americans had a bigger force.

[Lance1978]

Snakehead1234, on 01 November 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Not necessarily the Japanese only retreated because they thought the Americans had a bigger force.

Which they didn't...and if they did the japs still would've retreated, and the yanks would've gaved chase.

[Capcon]

Snakehead1234, on 01 November 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

Not necessarily the Japanese only retreated because they thought the Americans had a bigger force.

So if there actually had been a bigger force they would have done the same thing. Given that the sea speed of the US fast battleship was greater than the sea speed of the Japanese ships in the ensuing stern chase the Japanese fleet elements face almost certain destruction.

[Ariecho]

Lance1978, on 22 October 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Considering that at the battle of Samar the yanks beat the japs grand fleet (including Yamato) with a handful of destroyers and escort destroyers firing peashooters, one can only stipulate that had the yanks had their BBs around, they would've sent  the japs their arses back on a plate.

The japs would've fought both the american BB's (with assisted artilery control unlike the japs) and the aircraft from Taffy 1,2,3. Most likely the entire japanese fleet would've been obliterated.

The correct spelling is "Japanese", not "Japs".  We have had at least two threads and a consensus in this forum saying that we didn't condone such terms.

[TenaciousTanaka]

Capcon, on 02 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

So if there actually had been a bigger force they would have done the same thing. Given that the sea speed of the US fast battleship was greater than the sea speed of the Japanese ships in the ensuing stern chase the Japanese fleet elements face almost certain destruction.

Faster cruising speed or not, by the time Halsey relented and detached an abbreviated version of task force 34, (he divided his fleet 3 times), that group was markedly inferior, at least on paper, to the remaining IJN force that slipped back through San Bernadino Strait in retreat just 3 hours earlier. IF he had caught up with Kurita's force, THAT could have been a nasty fight and perhaps teetered either way.  However,  I still think U.S. radar directed fire control would have settled things rather violently... IMO!

[Lance1978]

TenaciousTanaka, on 02 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Faster cruising speed or not, by the time Halsey relented and detached an abbreviated version of task force 34, (he divided his fleet 3 times), that group was markedly inferior, at least on paper, to the remaining IJN force that slipped back through San Bernadino Strait in retreat just 3 hours earlier. IF he had caught up with Kurita's force, THAT could have been a nasty fight and perhaps teetered either way.  However,  I still think U.S. radar directed fire control would have settled things rather violently... IMO!

Underlined...remember Bismark vs Hood?... more or less the same thing would've happened, on a larger scale...
add aerial superiority (granted not armed properly, but still around 600 planes buzzing over the japanese fleet, distracting and straffing, etc.), and you have an execution on your hands.

P.S. I apologise for the term Japs, it was not intended as an insult.

[TenaciousTanaka]

Lance1978, on 05 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Underlined...remember Bismark vs Hood?... more or less the same thing would've happened, on a larger scale...
add aerial superiority (granted not armed properly, but still around 600 planes buzzing over the japanese fleet, distracting and straffing, etc.), and you have an execution on your hands.

P.S. I apologise for the term Japs, it was not intended as an insult.

Very pertinent point and just as legitimate as any that may be made.   The thing is, intangibles are what make or break surface engagements and they are supremely difficult, if not impossible, to plan for.  Take a look at the Tassafaronga debacle of Nov. 30, 1942.  That was an extremely powerful US cruiser/DD force and still got its [edited] stomped by an inferior IJN DD flotilla.  Even the best laid plans, superior force and surprise still does not guarantee a victory.  

That is the great thing about these conjectures; there are so many "what ifs" no one theory can be proven absolute.

[BrushWolf]

TenaciousTanaka, on 02 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Faster cruising speed or not, by the time Halsey relented and detached an abbreviated version of task force 34, (he divided his fleet 3 times), that group was markedly inferior, at least on paper, to the remaining IJN force that slipped back through San Bernadino Strait in retreat just 3 hours earlier. IF he had caught up with Kurita's force, THAT could have been a nasty fight and perhaps teetered either way.  However,  I still think U.S. radar directed fire control would have settled things rather violently... IMO!

The Japanese Center Force had four battleships on paper. Only the Yamato was a modern battleship with the Nagato being an upgraded WWI design that was vunerable to modern BB's. The other two, Kongo and Haruna were WWI designs, Kongo class battlecruisers that were upgraded to battleships and even more vunerable to modern BB's. At the Second Battle of Guadalcanal another upgraded Kongo class, IJN Kirshima, was able to hurt but not destroy the USS South Dakota while at the same time the USS Washington turned the IJN Kirshima into a sinking hulk, this all happening at what for BB's is point blank range, 9,000 yards.

[Selonianth]

I can tell you what would happen. The New Jersey was in that battlegroup I do believe and she would have singlehandedly defeated the entire Japanese Battleship fleet. :Smile_trollface:  :Smile_trollface:

[Windhover118]

The biggest gun battle that never happened you say?

 

Before World War II even started Japan was making plans to counter the US battle line with their own. Japan figured that the US Pacific Fleet would deploy its battleships to attack Japan. As a result, their plan was to launch a series of small skirmishes bleeding the US fleet and setting the stage for a direct conflict between the two fleets. The Battleships Yamato and Musashi were born out of this concept. Then Japan decided to just attack Pearl Harbor instead.

[Selonianth]

Not sure what that has to do with it.

[Windhover118]

Selonianth, on 12 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Not sure what that has to do with it.

I was pointing out another big gun battle that never happened.

[BrushWolf]

Windhover118, on 12 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

The biggest gun battle that never happened you say?

Before World War II even started Japan was making plans to counter the US battle line with their own. Japan figured that the US Pacific Fleet would deploy its battleships to attack Japan. As a result, their plan was to launch a series of small skirmishes bleeding the US fleet and setting the stage for a direct conflict between the two fleets. The Battleships Yamato and Musashi were born out of this concept. Then Japan decided to just attack Pearl Harbor instead.

The Japanese never quit trying to get a big surface action with the US fleet. Because of the damage from the Pearl Harbor attack the US was forced to move from a battleship is supreme to a carrier is supreme. The Japanese on the other hand never changed even though they considered the carrier as a potent weapon. Midway was supposed to pull the remaining US surface fleet into action and instead crippled the Japanese fleet from the loses, loses they never recovered from.

[Selonianth]

Actually Brushwolf, of the 8 BB's damaged in pearl, only three weren't in full operation within the next 3 months. Pearl harbor did amazingly little damage.

[Crag_r]

Selonianth, on 13 November 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Actually Brushwolf, of the 8 BB's damaged in pearl, only three weren't in full operation within the next 3 months. Pearl harbor did amazingly little damage.

Please do your research on this http://forum.worldof...cepalm_wowp.gif

Arizona: Exploded; total loss. 1,177 dead.
Oklahoma: Capsized, 429 dead. Refloated November 1943.
West Virginia: two bombs, seven torpedoes, sunk; returned to service July 1944. 106 dead.
California: two bombs, two torpedoes, sunk; returned to service January 1944. 100 dead.
Nevada: six bombs, one torpedo, beached; returned to service October 1942. 60 dead.
Tennessee: two bombs; returned to service February 1942. 5 dead.
Maryland: two bombs; returned to service February 1942. 4 dead (including floatplane pilot shot down).
Pennsylvania (Kimmel’s Flagship): in drydock, one bomb, debris from USS Cassin; remained in service. 9 dead.

So what you meant to say was only that 4 were operational in the first 3 months http://forum.worldof...cepalm_wowp.gif

[Selonianth]

I count 4. One was never damaged enough to even be taken out of service so my count was off by one. I looked at the info earlier today and must have accidently confused one of the cruisers.

[partybo20]

to all Americans here..."honor and respect our fallen heroes in the battles past, for their sacrifices are what help keep us safe".  When December 7th rolls around this year I plan on honoring those killed at Pearl.

[Sampsonite]

If it hadn't been for the captains of those destroyers "stand and fight" mentality to protect the landing force it would have been very different.