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Are Isokaze and Minekaze actually getting nerfed?

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So apparently some of the torp changes didn't go through on the upper tier ships, in fact, in some ways, you get MORE torps, if the reviews are to be believed.  But do they really have to nerf these two beautiful mid tier ships? 

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As somebody who loved his isokaze I gotta say the ship did kinda need to lose those torps. They were just a bit much for the tier, especially in the new hunting safari... I mean protected MM

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What about Kamikaze and Fujin?

 

They won't get nerfed.  You have to admit, they are a bit over powered, and I say that even though the Minekaze was one of my top two picks for a go to seal clubber.

 

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Not just nerfed. Nerfed to oblivion. 10kts slower torps that do 25% less damage. 

 

At least I'll be able to use my 15 point Minekaze commander for the new IJN DDs.

 

Thank god my Kamikaze R will survive.

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I must say, for the DD ship-giving event, I exclusively used the Minekaze - to grind it along.

After a couple games, I was clubbing bots like crazy.

Ah, but humans are harder?

...No.   Human adversaries are easier to club than bots.  I was using Russian torp techniques to get deep into range of the bots and let the torps loose all at once.

Always had at least two bots chasing me the entire mission.


 

Against human adversaries, I could just sprinkle the torps in their path, like a moving mine-field, and they'd always hit a couple.  That never happens with bots.

This is why there are very few destroyers in Co-Op.  The ones I am teamed up with are either bots, or other players ending up towards the bottom of the list.

...

And for that reason, I'd feel bad about using the Minekaze as it is against people.  It's just way too OP.

In the future, I have the Kamikaze and Fujin (same ship) for those bot kill missions.

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Here's the changes.

Minekaze's torpedoes are changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

The Isokaze's torpedoes are also changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

So like before, the Isokaze and Minekaze will be sharing the same final torpedo armament.  This differs from the Mutsuki which is getting the following torpedo armament at tier 5.

  • 16,267 damage, 59 knot top speed, 10km range, 1.5km detection range, 76s reload.
  • This gives the Mutsuki 77,054 potential torpedo DPM.

 

So you've now got a choice.  If you want individually hard hitting torpedoes, play the Mutsuki.  If you prefer the fast reload, stick with the Minekaze.  Alternatively, the Kamikaze-class (Kamikaze R, Fujin & Kamikaze) are keeping their same torpedoes and play very similar to the current Minekaze.  They have a slightly different turret layout, different torpedo arcs and are 1.5knots slower.

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There is a low number of Destroyers in Co-Op.

Somewhere in the bot programming, they can see when torpedoes are being launched at long range, and communicate freely with other bots as to the location of these torpedoes.

...

When playing against human ops, one would fire a torpedoes at a group of ships, and many times hit an unintended enemy ship, or hit the target and the strays hit another.

This never happens in Co-Op.  And like I always say, if you can survive and thrive in Co-Op as a DD operator, Random is a cakewalk.

...

I see these changes as killing Co-Op training of DD operators even further.  The only fix is to introduce 'Artificial Stupidity' into the bot's programming.

I have no sympathy for bots.  They are team-killing cheaters who use illegal aim-assist.  (LOL)

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Here's the changes.

Minekaze's torpedoes are changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

The Isokaze's torpedoes are also changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

So like before, the Isokaze and Minekaze will be sharing the same final torpedo armament.  This differs from the Mutsuki which is getting the following torpedo armament at tier 5.

  • 16,267 damage, 59 knot top speed, 10km range, 1.5km detection range, 76s reload.
  • This gives the Mutsuki 77,054 potential torpedo DPM.

 

So you've now got a choice.  If you want individually hard hitting torpedoes, play the Mutsuki.  If you prefer the fast reload, stick with the Minekaze.  Alternatively, the Kamikaze-class (Kamikaze R, Fujin & Kamikaze) are keeping their same torpedoes and play very similar to the current Minekaze.  They have a slightly different turret layout, different torpedo arcs and are 1.5knots slower.

 

Any chance you know where I can find a comparison of the reaction time for old torps vs. new torps?  I'm guessing that the 200 meter reduction in detection range won't make up for the slower speed.

 

Another effect is that your targets will need to be moving toward you or at least parallel.  57 knot torps aren't going to catch up with anything moving away.

 

Thank WG gave me a chance to buy Fujin.  Even with the poor Tier 5 MatchMaking she can punch up just fine.

 

P.S. the new Fubuki sounds like it may be a monster at Tier 6.

Edited by Landing_Skipper

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They won't get nerfed.  You have to admit, they are a bit over powered, and I say that even though the Minekaze was one of my top two picks for a go to seal clubber.

 

 

Kamikaze ® is inferior to the Minekaze in most aspects. 1.5 kn speed difference and the AA which is important for getting rid of spotting planes. Only downside of Minekaze is the hp difference of 200. And I would trade these 200 points for a better speed and AA any day.

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They won't get nerfed.  You have to admit, they are a bit over powered, and I say that even though the Minekaze was one of my top two picks for a go to seal clubber.

 

 

Non topic related, but I see by your recent win rate the weekend potato got you too.

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Kamikaze ® is inferior to the Minekaze in most aspects. 1.5 kn speed difference and the AA which is important for getting rid of spotting planes. Only downside of Minekaze is the hp difference of 200. And I would trade these 200 points for a better speed and AA any day.

 

And the rudder shift time is worse on the Kami / R / Fujin

Minekaze =2.1, others = 2.9

This makes a difference in dodging CV dropped torps - of the planes you can't shoot down.

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Another reason the Kamikaze class of destroyers isn't getting nerfed is not only are they premium they arn't changing tier.

 

So this makes all the old destroyers end at tier 5 and all the modern ones start at tier 6 

 

And I also think there was supposed to be a premium modern destroyer coming sometime... Wasn't it one of the Fubuki variants but with early model turrets or something?

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Another reason the Kamikaze class of destroyers isn't getting nerfed is not only are they premium they arn't changing tier.

 

So this makes all the old destroyers end at tier 5 and all the modern ones start at tier 6 

 

And I also think there was supposed to be a premium modern destroyer coming sometime... Wasn't it one of the Fubuki variants but with early model turrets or something?

 

It's the Shinonome.  From what I hear, the Supertesters are still playing with it.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_destroyer_Shinonome_(1927)

The World of Warships Wiki has some details about her which you can find here:  http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Shinonome

 

Her preliminary stats look like they're preserving the tier 8 Fubuki statistics (gun performance, number of guns, etc) but with what look to be weird torpedoes.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse

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Here's the changes.

Minekaze's torpedoes are changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

The Isokaze's torpedoes are also changing.

  • They were:  14,400 damage, 68 knot speed, 7km range, 1.4km detection range, 47s reload
  • They will be:  10,833 damage, 57 knot speed, 7km range, 1.2km detection range. 42s reload
  • This changes their potential torpedo DPM from 110,298 to 92,854. 

 

So like before, the Isokaze and Minekaze will be sharing the same final torpedo armament.  This differs from the Mutsuki which is getting the following torpedo armament at tier 5.

  • 16,267 damage, 59 knot top speed, 10km range, 1.5km detection range, 76s reload.
  • This gives the Mutsuki 77,054 potential torpedo DPM.

 

So you've now got a choice.  If you want individually hard hitting torpedoes, play the Mutsuki.  If you prefer the fast reload, stick with the Minekaze.  Alternatively, the Kamikaze-class (Kamikaze R, Fujin & Kamikaze) are keeping their same torpedoes and play very similar to the current Minekaze.  They have a slightly different turret layout, different torpedo arcs and are 1.5knots slower.

 

The problem with these DPM statistics is that they assume a 1.0 probability of each possible torpedo landing on target which is not true, far from it. The success rate is far, far less. The total expected average damage for a IJN DD in 20 min game is between 15,000 to 30,000, average player, i.e. 750 to 1500 DPM. I've seen better and worse.  The chances  of torpedo hitting depend on the player but I'll give 1/10 to 1/6 during a full game, so out of 30 torpedoes launched maybe 3 to 5 will hit something. Again, this is average, it may be better or worse. If I take my personal statistics, my hit ratio average is about 1/8 to 1/6 of all torpedoes launched in a game. That's 2 to 5 hits out of 30 torpedoes. So my potential damage is currently 72,000 maximum for the entire game. This means that I can sink 1.5 full health battleships during a game.

 

Statistically what the changes in torpedo speed mean is an increase of 3% of reaction time for cruisers and battleships from 48 s to 49 s from the moment they detect the torpedoes. While in damage this is a reduction for cruisers and battleships from 20,000 to 15,000 maximum damage in a successful torpedo run. A battleship will require at least two successful torpedo runs assuming a reduction in the hit probability of 40% if you're lucky. All this means that my full damage potential in the game is reduced since it's expected that only 1 to 3 torpedo will hit with a total potential damage of 32500 which is .8 of a full health battleship due to the increased reaction time and reduced potential damage. IJN DDs are expected to only be able to sink by snipping other destroyers and maybe a clueless cruiser with torpedoes only, since the gun DPM is not comparable to US, German or Russian lines.

 

This also means that the economy of IJN DD will be reduced since the potential compensation for damage won't be there either. It's probable that the roll of the IJN DD will be reduced to spotting and not causing damage. There are no current rewards for spotting damage in the WoWs ecology.

 

This may be enough in T4-T5 matchs for the minekaze but in T7, the Minekaze is toast! Also, the speed downgrade in the Isokaze make it more difficult to outrun cruisers once detected.

 

Yes, I'm extremely displeased with these changes to both the Isokaze and Minekaze.

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I think the torpedo nerf is justified for Isokaze, but Minekaze needs to keep her current torps.  I can't see the ship being remotely competitive otherwise.  Mutsuki just needed down-tiering to be fine though, so I don't foresee any issues with her being a T5.

Edited by TenguBlade

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The problem with these DPM statistics is that they assume a 1.0 probability of each possible torpedo landing on target which is not true, far from it. The success rate is far, far less.

 

You're missing the forest for the trees.  The point of those stats was to facilitate discussion, not to rattle off expected performance.

 

It pays to know things like potential DPM when looking at how a given ship performs.  Just like gun DPM, no ship will ever get anywhere even close to the maximums listed there but it provides a ready number to describe the performance and it's easy to understand.  What's easier to digest, for example?  That a ship has a 9% base fire chance with its guns or the following formula?

 

(“Ammo’s fire rate” + Demoliton Expert perk) * (“Ship’s fire rate” * (1-(Modification from upgrade + Modification from perk))

 

Don't get me wrong, the latter is more accurate.  But with so many skill levels present on the forums, getting exceedingly technical can alienate people from the conversation.  Hence I prefer to use simplified terms with a wink and a nod to what they'll actually pan out to when placed in a game play setting.  So, for example, using the ship's base fire chance when combined with her rate of fire gives a fictional "fires per minute" stat that's far removed from reality and would never stand up to testing in game play.  However, when comparing two ships, it provides an easy measure.   People can easily see, "Oh, that one lights more fires cause it shoots faster even though it has a lower base fire chance.  Neat."

 

Potential DPM for the torpedoes is similarly fictitious and flawed.  It doesn't account for accuracy, torpedo damage reduction, hit location saturation and difficulties of setting up a target.  All it does do is tell you which ships we would expect to see do more damage with their torpedoes.  By looking at the ratio of potential damage between torpedo armaments, one can get a glimpse into the expected numbers they would realistically see through a match.  If a player underperforms with a ship that's supposed to have higher torpedo DPM, then it points towards problems that are more easily identifiable, including accuracy, target selection, difficulties with setting up attack runs, etc.

 

What the Minekaze vs Mutsuki DPM difference showed very clearly is that the Minekaze still holds an advantage for potential damage over the Mutsuki, provided she can fire her fish regularly.  This should tell players that want to get the most out of the Minekaze to try and set up frequent attack runs.  Otherwise the higher alpha strike of the Mutsuki will dominate.  When comparing it to the older stats, the DPM shows an approximate reduction in total damage they'll see over the course of a game, if you math it out to a percentage reduction.

 

What will be interesting to see is how the Minekaze's stats actually reduce.  I suspect we'll see a significant drop, not strictly because her torpedoes are nerfed, but because many of the people who use her because she's so heavily optimized currently at her tier will bail on her and select a different chariot of choice.

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You're missing the forest for the trees.  The point of those stats was to facilitate discussion, not to rattle off expected performance.

 

It pays to know things like potential DPM when looking at how a given ship performs.  Just like gun DPM, no ship will ever get anywhere even close to the maximums listed there but it provides a ready number to describe the performance and it's easy to understand.  What's easier to digest, for example?  That a ship has a 9% base fire chance with its guns or the following formula?

 

(“Ammo’s fire rate” + Demoliton Expert perk) * (“Ship’s fire rate” * (1-(Modification from upgrade + Modification from perk))

 

Don't get me wrong, the latter is more accurate.  But with so many skill levels present on the forums, getting exceedingly technical can alienate people from the conversation.  Hence I prefer to use simplified terms with a wink and a nod to what they'll actually pan out to when placed in a game play setting.  So, for example, using the ship's base fire chance when combined with her rate of fire gives a fictional "fires per minute" stat that's far removed from reality and would never stand up to testing in game play.  However, when comparing two ships, it provides an easy measure.   People can easily see, "Oh, that one lights more fires cause it shoots faster even though it has a lower base fire chance.  Neat."

 

Potential DPM for the torpedoes is similarly fictitious and flawed.  It doesn't account for accuracy, torpedo damage reduction, hit location saturation and difficulties of setting up a target.  All it does do is tell you which ships we would expect to see do more damage with their torpedoes.  By looking at the ratio of potential damage between torpedo armaments, one can get a glimpse into the expected numbers they would realistically see through a match.  If a player underperforms with a ship that's supposed to have higher torpedo DPM, then it points towards problems that are more easily identifiable, including accuracy, target selection, difficulties with setting up attack runs, etc.

 

What the Minekaze vs Mutsuki DPM difference showed very clearly is that the Minekaze still holds an advantage for potential damage over the Mutsuki, provided she can fire her fish regularly.  This should tell players that want to get the most out of the Minekaze to try and set up frequent attack runs.  Otherwise the higher alpha strike of the Mutsuki will dominate.  When comparing it to the older stats, the DPM shows an approximate reduction in total damage they'll see over the course of a game, if you math it out to a percentage reduction.

 

What will be interesting to see is how the Minekaze's stats actually reduce.  I suspect we'll see a significant drop, not strictly because her torpedoes are nerfed, but because many of the people who use her because she's so heavily optimized currently at her tier will bail on her and select a different chariot of choice.

 

While DPM stats are not really how the real game plays out, they make a big difference still in the game.  Especially with a nerf to damage this huge (were talking what 3k each???).  That's nothing to sneeze at.  It means a huge difference to the likeliness of that thing surviving the torp run and killing off that DD.  And in higher skill games (ha) if someone takes the "normal" amount of torps of about 1 or 2, its very unlikely to do as significant of a dent into their HP as it used to.  Furthermore, its a huge nerf for DD vs DD torping, which is where a lot of Isokaze and Minekaze's DD kills come from.  Cap contests and torps into the smoke.  

 

Also, hello LWM.  =)  Had fun playing with you a few days ago.  Hope it happens again.  

I'm usually the one trying to tell ppl in chat how to team play better but you beat me to it that game.  

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Sorry Mouse,but I think I'm not missing the point here or seeing the tree instead of the forest. My point is exactly that expressing the worth of the ship in terms of its DPM is meaningless or trying to say that the changes in these ships are not important or people shouldn't be worried because they were ships that were too optimized and thus, they needed to be less optimized. These are just talking points to convince us that these changes were necessary and we shouldn't be displeased.

The matter is that my general perception is that I won't enjoy these two ships any more, like many others will do as well. The perception of taking away the fun part is there, maybe new players won't notice but old ones will do!

The perception is that the IJN DD mid-tiers are being sacrificed in order to placate other ship classes by augmenting their chances. Like I said, these changes do significantly affect the play style and rewards by constraining one particular line.

The changes do change play style and economy of the IJN DDs. The economic gains are directly proportional to inflicted damage, not to flag capture nor spotting.

The reality is that the changes are more directed to encourage long distance gun exchanges and forget torpedoes but as last resort. Not fun for me and my displeasure.

The match making moreoften than not puts the Minekaze in T7 matches. It will be tuned into a sitting duck. Maybe experienced players will be able to enjoy it but the average one will leave the line sooner than expected in favor of gunboats.be

As for me, I'll play less because the fun factor won't be there anymore. I'll go to the Russian line until they nerf the Khavarosk to death

Edited by GhostWithIn
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I spent the day on the Minekaze against bots:

I usually ended up at the top of my team.

The bot Minekaze usually ends up at the top of the bot team.....

That should tell you something.

Reducing the torpedo speed WILL matter to bring some balance, and take some of the fear factor out of facing these ship-erasers.

Another idea is to add some random dispersion, like there is in artillery.  At present time, torpedoes are the most flawlessly accurate projectile in the game.  Even aerial dropped torps are given RNG if there are AA or fighters.

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The perception is that the IJN DD mid-tiers are being sacrificed in order to placate other ship classes by augmenting their chances. Like I said, these changes do affect significantly the play style and rewards by constraining one particular line.

The reality is that the changes are more directed to encourage long distance gun exhanges and forget torpedoes but as last resort. Not fun for me and my displeasure.

The match making putting the new Minekaze in T7 fights will turn it into a sitting duck. Maybe experienced players will be able to enjoy it but the average one will leave the line sooner than expected in favor of gunboats.

As for me, I'll play less because the fun factor won't be there anymore. I'll go to the Russian line until they nerf the Khavarosk to death

 

The perception is flawed.  Take an Isokaze, equip the stock torpedoes and challenge yourself to do well in a match with them.  Trust me, you'll have a very easy time racking up impressive damage totals with these fish and you won't be prompted to reach for your guns at all.  There's a whole subsection of IJN Destroyer experts who have been doing exactly this to evaluate the differences in a real world setting, beyond theoretical DPM and their findings have been that the quality of your opponents matters more than the meat in your fish.  New players still struggle with the WASD concept.  11k damage torpedoes are still entirely sufficient for punishing them as 15k torpedoes.  The seal clubbing boats will do just fine.

 

In addition, select ships, notably the Fubuki (tier 6) and Shiratsuyu (tier 7) are more powerful at their tier than any of the old guard was.  You can flee to the Khabarovsk or throw your toys out of the pram.  But I think the doom saying going on in the forums, the wailing against change is premature.  Try them out.  I've had the opportunity to do so.  I was very impressed by a few select ships and unconcerned when I played through the others.

 

Trust me.  Or don't.  But trust yourself after playing them, if you can keep an open mind.  It will only cost you time and you may learn something about your preconceptions.

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That's a glowing review, if I've ever heard one.  Ok, I'll give it a try.  

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