German 406 mm versus 420 mm guns

[ckupf]

I got the FDG about a week ago, upgraded the hull and GFCS with free xp and started playing her. After 8 games, 108k avg damage, with 14 kills and 0 deaths, I'm a big fan. I did not expect her to stack up so well after my beloved Bismarck.

 

I am currently using the 406 mm guns and now have enough XP to upgrade to the 420 mm guns. I am doing so well that I don't know if I want to change. I love the 25.4 second reload with MBM3, and the turrets are quick enough that MBM3's downside is not a big deal. 

 

Upside is better broadside power, better penetration particularly at close range, can overmatch 29mm armor which may not exist anymore as the only example of it I know of was the Monty's deck. Slightly better HE (which is rarely used in a German BB).

 

Downside is worse ROF (25.4 to 28.2 with MBM3), less DPS, 10 mps slower shell speed negates some of the better pen at range.

 

Unknown if the aerodynamic and shell characteristics affect the shell travel time significantly.

 

The downsides are few in number, but the first 2 are the most important things.

 

What is everyone's feeling about the change in guns? Am I missing anything important to this decision?

 

Thanks and Good Hunting,

Ckupf

[Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao]

i suggest the 16's, its worth it over the reload.

 

[Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao]

I got the FDG about a week ago, upgraded the hull and GFCS with free xp and started playing her. After 8 games, 108k avg damage, with 14 kills and 0 deaths, I'm a big fan. I did not expect her to stack up so well after my beloved Bismarck.

 

I am currently using the 406 mm guns and now have enough XP to upgrade to the 420 mm guns. I am doing so well that I don't know if I want to change. I love the 25.4 second reload with MBM3, and the turrets are quick enough that MBM3's downside is not a big deal. 

 

Upside is better broadside power, better penetration particularly at close range, can overmatch 29mm armor which may not exist anymore as the only example of it I know of was the Monty's deck. Slightly better HE (which is rarely used in a German BB).

 

Downside is worse ROF (25.4 to 28.2 with MBM3), less DPS, 10 mps slower shell speed negates some of the better pen at range.

 

Unknown if the aerodynamic and shell characteristics affect the shell travel time significantly.

 

The downsides are few in number, but the first 2 are the most important things.

 

What is everyone's feeling about the change in guns? Am I missing anything important to this decision?

 

Thanks and Good Hunting,

Ckupf

 

i tend to "trust" the 406s more then the 420s

they have a higher velocity as well

[Deathskyz]

Slightly better HE (which is rarely used in a German BB).

 

I will add a point that German Battleship HE has a Special Property.

 

ALL HE rounds have a Penetration value calculated at [Calibre / 6], so 203mm HE has 33.8mm of pen regardless of angle (HE does not take angling into effect).

Except for German BB HE, which pen value is calculated at [Calibre / 4], this means that the 420s have a pen value of 105mm, the 406s have a pen value of 101.5mm.

 

Your 420 HE can citadel a Minotaur and Neptune kek.

Truly, the dankest of rounds.

[ckupf]

 

I will add a point that German Battleship HE has a Special Property.

 

ALL HE rounds have a Penetration value calculated at [Calibre / 6], so 203mm HE has 33.8mm of pen regardless of angle (HE does not take angling into effect).

Except for German BB HE, which pen value is calculated at [Calibre / 4], this means that the 420s have a pen value of 105mm, the 406s have a pen value of 101.5mm.

 

Your 420 HE can citadel a Minotaur and Neptune kek.

Truly, the dankest of rounds.

 

Well aware, 406 HE could even citadel a Minotaur but also why would I be firing HE at a broadside cruiser?

 

A citadel with HE on the 420s is 5k dmg, but most of my hits will be 1650 or 825 after saturation sets in. AP Cits are 13500, pens are 4455, which is almost equal to an HE citadel or 2228 which is still more than an HE pen. Overpens are 1350 and not subject to saturation. That's a cool fact, but useless and misleading when it comes to playing the game. Also HE citadels are much harder than AP citadels since they can't hit the water first. The fact of the matter is if you are shooting HE for the purpose of getting a citadel in anything other than a low tier IJN DD (the only ships with better damage from their HE than their AP) you are doing something wrong.

[Deathskyz]

 

Well aware, 406 HE could even citadel a Minotaur but also why would I be firing HE at a broadside cruiser?

 

A citadel with HE on the 420s is 5k dmg, but most of my hits will be 1650 or 825 after saturation sets in. AP Cits are 13500, pens are 4455, which is almost equal to an HE citadel or 2228 which is still more than an HE pen. Overpens are 1350 and not subject to saturation. That's a cool fact, but useless and misleading when it comes to playing the game. Also HE citadels are much harder than AP citadels since they can't hit the water first. The fact of the matter is if you are shooting HE for the purpose of getting a citadel in anything other than a low tier IJN DD (the only ships with better damage from their HE than their AP) you are doing something wrong.

 

41% fire chance. Good to use against bow tanking BBs.

Maybe its an Asia server thing to spam HE I guess

[ckupf]

 

41% fire chance. Good to use against bow tanking BBs.

Maybe its an Asia server thing to spam HE I guess

 

Maybe, bow in BBs is the main situation I tend to use HE in BBs, unless I can overmatch of course. Also, if I know I'm gonna have a DD at close range, particularly in an IJN BB, I guess. You actually sink DDs faster with AP in USN and German BBs, but are less likely to get a detonation or knock out modules. There are few absolutes in this game, the Monty HE strat at range makes some sense, and the Ishizuchi is an HE spitfire of course.

[Lert]

I run the 420s but both are viable weapons, use to taste.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

For my FDG and GK, 420, 420 all the way.

[TenguBlade]

I see most people using the 420mm guns for the sake of "blaze it" jokes, but there is a penetration difference.  The 406s fall off harder against angled targets (lighter shell, so it's more prone to shatters/bounces even when overmatch isn't in play - it also doesn't have Izumo's lightning-fast velocity to compensate) compared to other T9+ BB guns, and being able to get a penetration instead of a shatter/bounce can often make up for the lower RPM of the 420s.

[kurt168]

I prefer the 420 on my FDG. Bigger the better.

[Angel_With_A_Shotgun]

The 420s have and advantage of being able to overmatch alot of the armor the ships will face. That said though the 406s do have rate of fire. it all comes down to how you play the ship. ^^

[Not_Your_Average_Potato]

Prefer the 420.  Mount the module for a faster reload and you get 28 seconds reload time.  The FDG and KF turret traverse speed is pretty fast so with a slight increase of traverse time for a faster reload is worth it.  

[Thewavis]

i went secondary so i hgave a 30 reload because my captain makes up the 2 second difference. i prefer the 420's myself except when RNG is being a pain in the [edited]

 

[D_bob]

I actually went the 406's on the FDG and got the reload to ~25 seconds, I think with only 8 guns its more necessary to get as many shells down range as possible.  Otherwise it just lags behind the other T9 BB's in damage potential too much.

 

With the GK I use the 420's just due to the fact that you have 12 guns, so that extra few seconds of reload doesn't hurt you as much vs a Yamato or a Montana, and the extra penetration is more useful vs T10 armor than it is at T9.

[Aloeus]

AFAIK there isn't any armor plate in the game now that a 420 will overmatch and a 406 won't. I go with the 406s with the reload mod. Its preference mostly, and props to wg for making a true sidegrade gun option and not just another e-100 128 vs 150 deal. 

[Tamatacsky]

I had about 50 battles with the 460mm, and about 10 battles with the 406mm in my FDG. I suck in that ship, but i feel like I do better with the 406mm.

[6a6a6a]

I had about 50 battles with the 460mm, and about 10 battles with the 406mm in my FDG. I suck in that ship, but i feel like I do better with the 406mm.

 

I would prefer the 460 over the 420mm any day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wyatt_DERP85]

I've flip flopped on this a few times. The rate of fire is nice but I want to maximize the alpha strike I can do at the right moment so I found myself waiting a few seconds for the right opportunity. As a result I wasn't using the rate of fire of the 406mm guns to it's fullest extent. I keep both so I can swap easily without spending any money.

[DrunkenSailor63]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 1:47 AM, Aloeus said:

AFAIK there isn't any armor plate in the game now that a 420 will overmatch and a 406 won't. I go with the 406s with the reload mod. Its preference mostly, and props to wg for making a true sidegrade gun option and not just another e-100 128 vs 150 deal. 

This was my thought as well.  So, you get *slightly* higher damage potential with a more significant reduction in reload time.  It didn't seem worth it to me (but haven't tried the 420's yet).

 

[DrunkenSailor63]

For those who have played the ship with both guns, do you see a noticeable difference in damage? 

I'm mostly of the bigger is better mindset, but also realize that isn't always the case (see: Mogami).  There seemed to be a bigger difference in reload rate than there was in damage potential.

 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

On 8/11/2017 at 7:53 AM, DrunkenSailor63 said:

For those who have played the ship with both guns, do you see a noticeable difference in damage? 

I'm mostly of the bigger is better mindset, but also realize that isn't always the case (see: Mogami).  There seemed to be a bigger difference in reload rate than there was in damage potential.

 

 

First thing's first, in the past, especially when the line was new, I was all about "420 or GTFO."  But after more playtime with both, honestly, it's all pretty d@mn close.  It all depends on what you prioritize.

 

406

+ Faster reload, especially when MBM3 is slotted, it gets crazy.

+ Sufficient penetration for all but long range.  Very short range pen is actually superior than the 420s.

- Good fire chance still but less than the very high stat on the 420s.

420

+ Solid pen at all ranges but at extended ranges, will be superior than the 406.

+ Stupidly high base 41% fire chance

- Decent reload time still but not like the fast working 406, especially 406+MBM3.

 

The main thing to ask yourself, what do you want?  Faster shooting guns or superior penetration?  The dispersion is the same.  Turret traverse is the same.  The damage isn't too much higher with 420.  Both have high fire chance with HE.

[sasquatch_research]

Hey

I find that the FDG sucks overall; and even fully upgraded it's just not all that great and nearly not as much fun as Bismarck.  I am running the 420's but I didn't see any real difference between the two in damage done.  I'm just disappointed with the ship overall, makes me wonder about even going to the GK.

 

Pete

[HazeGrayUnderway]

14 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I find that the FDG sucks overall; and even fully upgraded it's just not all that great and nearly not as much fun as Bismarck.  I am running the 420's but I didn't see any real difference between the two in damage done.  I'm just disappointed with the ship overall, makes me wonder about even going to the GK.

 

Pete

 

FDG is superior to Bismarck in every way.

 

The problem people have when going from Tier VIII German BBs into IX-X is the fighting in those higher tier matches isn't as easy for a secondaries focused ship.  I know very few German BB players slot ASM1 to tighten up their dispersion because, "Muh Secondariez" so the wonky German guns will always be wonky.

 

Nobody gives a s--t about your 11km secondaries when most of the fighting at Tier IX-X is done at ranges far above that, and when your main battery isn't buffed in dispersion (no ASM1) then you can't complain because it's self inflicted.

 

You can still run a secondaries build on the high tier German BBs but realize the opportunities to use them dwindle and have to be patient.  FDG & GK face the stiffest competition.  This isn't the Seal Clubbing s--t you were pulling with long range secondaries on Bismarck against 21knot New Mexicos and Arizonas with s--t armor against 15"+ shells.  This isn't Seal Clubbing a Tier VIII BB against weak Tier VI ships or tin can armored Pensacola.  This isn't Seal Clubbing a Tier VIII BB against USN DDs at Tier VI-VII with s--t concealment ranges.  This isn't Seal Clubbing against Tier VI CVs falling prey to your AA with low tier planes.

 

All those ships you are facing in Tier IX-X are tough.  Almost all of them excel with range.  Only exceptions are USN Cruisers that can only excel in short ranges.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

14 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I find that the FDG sucks overall; and even fully upgraded it's just not all that great and nearly not as much fun as Bismarck.  I am running the 420's but I didn't see any real difference between the two in damage done.  I'm just disappointed with the ship overall, makes me wonder about even going to the GK.

 

Pete

 

FDG is superior to Bismarck in every way.

 

The problem people have when going from Tier VIII German BBs into IX-X is the fighting in those higher tier matches isn't as easy for a secondaries focused ship.  I know very few German BB players slot ASM1 to tighten up their dispersion because, "Muh Secondariez" so the wonky German guns will always be wonky.

 

Nobody gives a s--t about your 11km secondaries when most of the fighting at Tier IX-X is done at ranges far above that, and when your main battery isn't buffed in dispersion (no ASM1) then you can't complain because it's self inflicted.

 

You can still run a secondaries build on the high tier German BBs but realize the opportunities to use them dwindle and have to be patient.  FDG & GK face the stiffest competition.  This isn't the Seal Clubbing s--t you were pulling with long range secondaries on Bismarck against 21knot New Mexicos and Arizonas with s--t armor against 15"+ shells.  This isn't Seal Clubbing Tier VI BBs where your armor is vastly superior and your secondaries DOUBLE the range of theirs.  This isn't Seal Clubbing a Tier VIII BB against weak Tier VI ships or tin can armored Pensacola.  This isn't Seal Clubbing a Tier VIII BB against USN DDs at Tier VI-VII with s--t concealment ranges.  This isn't Seal Clubbing Tier VI DDs whose gun ranges and torpedo ranges are rivaled by your secondaries.  This isn't Seal Clubbing against Tier VI CVs falling prey to your AA with low tier planes.

 

All those ships you are facing in Tier IX-X are tough.  Almost all of them excel with range.  Only exceptions are USN Cruisers that can only excel in short ranges.  The nature of fighting at Tier IX-X is different and the ships you are fighting are no longer Tier VI peons.  Your ship is on par with the competition and not the easy road MM grants Tier VIII ships by handing Tier VI ships to easily devour.  The heat gets turned up.