Will WG Seek To Change Conditions Of Competition of Ranked During The Season For IJN DD Players But Not Anyone Else?

[Jakob_Knight]

So. It seems, from the wording of the Nov 7 event 'Rain Of Destruction', that the Devs have decided to apply the nerfs to IJN DDs on that day.

 

This will result in those playing IJN DDs in ranked having the ships they have had set up and been using for Ranked removed during the competition, and replaced with inferior substitutes. The question is if this will be a nerf that will remain specifically targeted at only those players playing IJN DDs, or if everyone will be similarly forced to replace their ships with substandard ships they have no play experience in and no purchased upgrades or assigned captains in order to keep the competition fair and everyone under the same conditions of competition?

 

Seems pretty obvious which one is going to happen, so it begs the question: Can we trust WG to ever run an unbiased competition again?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nachoo31]

 

  FYI.  I play IJN DD.

[AspiringCodger]

How do you know the new IJN line will be inferior?  Not only that, have they even said how the change will work for people that already have those tiers of IJN destroyers?

[TTK_Aegis]

How do you know the new IJN line will be inferior?  Not only that, have they even said how the change will work for people that already have those tiers of IJN destroyers?

 

The way I heard it explained was that you will keep the same tier and progress in that tier you have unlocked. So basically if you have T1 thorugh T10 you'll keep T1 through T10 of the "normal" line but get none of the gunship line even though some of the current ships are moving to that line. 

[Special_Kay]

"The question is will they do it in a stupid way and leave it at that, or will they do it in a stupid way and screw with everything else"

 

Boy, I sure do love me question loaded with a black-or-white fallacy.

 

 

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that if you can't pick up the difference in style of a new ship in a matter of a few random battle practice matches, you were probably already at your skill capped rank. Either that or you've got very little time for the game, which I will grant you, a small minority of folks will fall into.

[Sabot_100]

How do you know the new IJN line will be inferior?  Not only that, have they even said how the change will work for people that already have those tiers of IJN destroyers.

 

Don't know the final changes (nerfs) to the IJN line yet, but if you have a play style preference and captain skilled toward a stealth torpedo delivery system and suddenly your are in a "gunboat", that from the start would make you inferior to the guys skilled at gunboats driving real gunboats.

[MidnightShamalan]

you've only played 60 ranked battles. it's not WG's fault you're slacking off.

 

seriously, how long did you have to think before you found some way to try to make this look like WG was doing something "bias"?

 

the only bias here is yours. cut the crap.

[kerensky914]

No matter the changes or the reasons for them, I am relatively sure they are not being done to affect ranked battles.  Sometimes the level of conspiracy-theory-stretching around here just makes me sad.

[Jakob_Knight]

How do you know the new IJN line will be inferior?  Not only that, have they even said how the change will work for people that already have those tiers of IJN destroyers?

 

 

Here is the current Fubuki, compared to the Kagero that will be replacing it as an example of comparison:

 

 

Gun range:   Fubuki - 10.0 Km, Kagero - 9.4 km.    -0.6km  (minor nerf)

Gun ROF:   Fubuki - 6.7 rpm, Kagero - 8.5 rpm   +1.8 rpm (minor buff)

Gun Dispersion:   Fubuki - 82m, Kagero - 79m   -3m  (no real difference)

Overall evaluation:  Kagero will have minor advantage in rate of fire but be unable to fire as far.  Gun use is marginal anyway, but the changes equalize out.

 

 

Torpedo range:  Fubuki - 15km, Kagero - 10 km   -5km (major nerf)

Torpedo speed:  Fubuki - 57 knts, Kagero - 67 knts  +10 knts  (moderate buff)

Torpedo Damage:  Fubuki - 17233, Kagero - 20966   +3733 damage (moderate buff)

Torpedo Reload time:  Fubuki - 82s, Kagero - 101s   +19 sec (moderate nerf)

Torpedo tubes:  Fubuki - 3x3 (9), Kagero - 2x4 (8)   -1 tube, -1 launcher  (major nerf)

Overall evaluation:  The Kagero will do more damage per torpedo, and the torpedoes will travel faster.  However, it must enter Radar detection range to do so, cutting the survivability of the ship greatly.  The Kagero will take longer to reload, fire fewer torpedoes, and have a greatly reduced ability to put those torpedoes on target or divide those torpedoes among targets.  The Kagero will lose half its torpedoes to a knocked out launcher, while the Fubuki will only lose a third.  The Kagero is a major downgrade from Fubuki, especially given that the Fubuki may take the same torpedoes as Kagero, nullifying the damage and torpedo speed advantages in the above examples.

 

 

Surface Concealment:  Fubuki - 7.0 km, Kagero - 6.8 km   -0.2 km  (close enough as to make no real difference)

Evaluation:  Both ships will be about equally easy to spot, and will have around the same range to work with in making their attacks with the same torpedoes.

 

 

Survivability HP:  Fubuki - 12600, Kagero - 15100   +2500 HP (moderate buff)

Overall Evaluation:  The Kagero will take more damage, approximately three more cruiser-sized hits to kill.  Moderate buff.

 

 

Maneuverability  Rudder Shift:   Fubuki - 3.8s, Kagero - 4.0 s   +0.2 sec  (no real difference)

Overall Evaluation:  The two ships handle equally.

 

 

Overall Ship Evaluation:  The Kagero features slightly better guns at short range, and slightly worse guns at long range.  As this is a torpedo ship, the guns are literally a non-issue, however.  There is no difference in speed or handling.  The Kagero will take several more shells to kill than the Fubuki under direct fire.  The two ships are functionally the same concealment.  The Kagero has much less torpedo capability than the Fubuki, and is required to place itself in kill range of radar-equipped cruisers to utilize its primary weapons system.   Overall, the Kagero is a worse ship than Fubuki.

 

 

Source:  ShipComrade.com.

 

 

These are the facts.  Let anyone who disputes them produce data to that effect along with a more reputable source.  Note this is an example, and the changes to other DDs are along similar lines (the sole exception being the T6 Fubuki which appears to at least be an equal ship to the faster and more stealthy Mutsuki it is replacing).

 

 

[Jakob_Knight]

"The question is will they do it in a stupid way and leave it at that, or will they do it in a stupid way and screw with everything else"

 

Boy, I sure do love me question loaded with a black-or-white fallacy.

 

 

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that if you can't pick up the difference in style of a new ship in a matter of a few random battle practice matches, you were probably already at your skill capped rank. Either that or you've got very little time for the game, which I will grant you, a small minority of folks will fall into.

 

The black and white of it is WG is forcing IJN DD players, and -only- IJN DD players, to change to unfamiliar ships for the last week of a competition while allowing all others to use ships they know and have outfitted for the competition.  Where is the fallacy of which you speak, or can you only speak in incorrect generalities to seem like you aren't the ignorant person you seem to be.

 

[Jakob_Knight]

you've only played 60 ranked battles. it's not WG's fault you're slacking off.

 

seriously, how long did you have to think before you found some way to try to make this look like WG was doing something "bias"?

 

the only bias here is yours. cut the crap.

 

 

And you have only fought 53?  Is that supposed to somehow have any bearing on the issue, other than that you are much more the slacker you accuse me of?  Some of us do have jobs, you know.

 

Seems like the person with the bias is in your mirror.  WG has done what they have done.   What I am doing is pointing out the fact that changing the conditions of competition in mid-competition is bad enough, but doing so to only a specific set of contestants is the very -definition- of bias, and invalidates any assumption their future competitions should be taken any other way than mockeries of fair competition.

[Jakob_Knight]

No matter the changes or the reasons for them, I am relatively sure they are not being done to affect ranked battles.  Sometimes the level of conspiracy-theory-stretching around here just makes me sad.

 

 

That they are being done in full knowledge that they -will- affect Ranked battles is enough.  There is no conspiracy-theory here, but hard facts.  WG -will- bias the competition against IJN DD players by doing this, and that they have decided to do it removes any doubt this is a theory but absolute determination to invalidate Ranked or any other competition they may hold in the future.

[Special_Kay]

The black and white of it is WG is forcing IJN DD players, and -only- IJN DD players, to change to unfamiliar ships for the last week of a competition while allowing all others to use ships they know and have outfitted for the competition.  Where is the fallacy of which you speak, or can you only speak in incorrect generalities to seem like you aren't the ignorant person you seem to be.

 

Yeah it's a shame you didn't put it that way in the first place. You quite clearly imply you will lose your upgrades and commander training, yet you don't know this to be true. You don't even allow for the possibility that when your T8 IJN DD is swapped, your commander will be automatically reset and retrained and your upgrades will be demounted and placed in your depot. No, it's "will they screw IJN DD players by not doing these things, or will they also force this on everyone else."

 

Just because you can point the change coming for one specific ship line ("The black and white of it is WG is forcing IJN DD players, and -only- IJN DD players, to change to unfamiliar ships") does not mean my criticism is retroactively applied to that and thus invalid. In posting this thread you were being obtuse in unjustifiably jumping to the conclusion which affords you the most reason to complain. Hand-wave all you want, it won't change that fact.

[TenguBlade]

I'm not really sure where OP or anyone else pulled the notion that the revised IJN DD tech tree hits in the next update.  The timing doesn't coincide with 0.5.14 (we're just having the first PT today - it's usually another week after the PT ends before they roll the patch out assuming all goes well) and they aren't available for testing on the PT server either.  Granted, neither were the German battleships, but we would at least see the new T5-8s even if the alternate line wasn't available.

[MidnightShamalan]

 

 

And you have only fought 53?  Is that supposed to somehow have any bearing on the issue, other than that you are much more the slacker you accuse me of?  Some of us do have jobs, you know.

 

Seems like the person with the bias is in your mirror.  WG has done what they have done.   What I am doing is pointing out the fact that changing the conditions of competition in mid-competition is bad enough, but doing so to only a specific set of contestants is the very -definition- of bias, and invalidates any assumption their future competitions should be taken any other way than mockeries of fair competition.

 

i've only played 53 because i got bored. i'm not trying for rank 1. the bearing on the issue is that you made it out to sound like you were actually trying in ranked. are you not? because if not, your argument is just a bunch of noise.

 

bias is unfairness to some people and not others. if these changes happen before ranked ends, they will be happening to everyone. not just some people. that is the epitome of fairness. it's not WG's fault that you're trying to be stubborn. if they were to say that some people could still use the ship and others couldn't then you would have a case. you're making something out of nothing, simply because you're afraid of change. get over yourself.

[Jakob_Knight]

I'm not really sure where OP or anyone else pulled the notion that the revised IJN DD tech tree hits in the next update.  The timing doesn't coincide with 0.5.14 (we're just having the first PT today - it's usually another week after the PT ends before they roll the patch out assuming all goes well) and they aren't available for testing on the PT server either.  Granted, neither were the German battleships, but we would at least see the new T5-8s even if the alternate line wasn't available.

 

 

From the description of the November 7th event 'Rain of Destruction': "Nothing lasts forever and we both know ships can change. It's hard to fire torpedoes in cold November rain.  
Bask in a cold shower of Credits as you rain down destruction on your foes!"

 

 

Let's see....'Nothing lasts forever', 'ships can change' and 'hard to fire torpedoes'.  What happens in the IJN DD nerf?  Current long-established DDs will be changed and the torpedoes will become harder to use.  Seems pretty obvious, unless you can think of a more plausible event that we know is coming?  As for testing, they probably won't be PTed, but just dumped based on Supertester feedback and WG's desires alone, so it isn't surprising they'd not let anyone playtest them publicly. 

 

 

My gripe is they are knowingly doing this with one week of Ranked play left, which will force those players using IJN DDs to compete in Ranked to switch to unfamiliar and unequipped ships while all others are not so required.  The issue of the change being an across-the-board nerf is a separate one I am not happy with, but this issue is about changing the conditions in Ranked during competition for a specific targeted player group and not others.
 

[Jakob_Knight]

 

i've only played 53 because i got bored. i'm not trying for rank 1. the bearing on the issue is that you made it out to sound like you were actually trying in ranked. are you not? because if not, your argument is just a bunch of noise.

 

bias is unfairness to some people and not others. if these changes happen before ranked ends, they will be happening to everyone. not just some people. that is the epitome of fairness. it's not WG's fault that you're trying to be stubborn. if they were to say that some people could still use the ship and others couldn't then you would have a case. you're making something out of nothing, simply because you're afraid of change. get over yourself.

 

No, you read into it what you wanted to see, and assumed what you wanted to assume.   By your own definition, since it is -not- happening to everyone but only those players who use IJN DDs, it is conclusively bias.  No other players are being required to switch to unfamiliar and unequipped ships (yes, you -may- or -may not- get a replacement ship, but putting your captain on it and retraining it is likely not going to be free, along with upgrades and modules....note that by definition different ships will likely require different fits of equipment and captain skills).  Even if captain assignment, reskilling, re-equipping of modules, purchasing of required modules, ship modules, and the ships themselves are free, they will still be unfamiliar ships forced on the players who are using one specific set of ships and not others in a competition that was set up with the understanding all contestants would compete on an even playing field throughout.

 

To quote yourself, get over yourself and learn to -think- rather than trying to seem on the moral high ground when you are simply proving yourself unable to understand what is being said.

[Camo68]

 

 

Here is the current Fubuki, compared to the Kagero that will be replacing it as an example of comparison:

 

 

 

Torpedo range:  Fubuki - 15km, Kagero - 10 km   -5km (major nerf)

Torpedo speed:  Fubuki - 57 knts, Kagero - 67 knts  +10 knts  (moderate buff)

Torpedo Damage:  Fubuki - 17233, Kagero - 20966   +3733 damage (moderate buff)

Torpedo Reload time:  Fubuki - 82s, Kagero - 101s   +19 sec (moderate nerf)

Torpedo tubes:  Fubuki - 3x3 (9), Kagero - 2x4 (8)   -1 tube, -1 launcher  (major nerf)

Overall evaluation:  The Kagero will do more damage per torpedo, and the torpedoes will travel faster.  However, it must enter Radar detection range to do so, cutting the survivability of the ship greatly.  The Kagero will take longer to reload, fire fewer torpedoes, and have a greatly reduced ability to put those torpedoes on target or divide those torpedoes among targets.  The Kagero will lose half its torpedoes to a knocked out launcher, while the Fubuki will only lose a third.  The Kagero is a major downgrade from Fubuki, especially given that the Fubuki may take the same torpedoes as Kagero, nullifying the damage and torpedo speed advantages in the above examples.

 

 

 

 

One point with your comparison on torps which is important, do you know what the detection range of the respective torps and reaction times are?

[Jakob_Knight]

 

One point with your comparison on torps which is important, do you know what the detection range of the respective torps and reaction times are?

 

 

15 km torps ( Type 90 mod 2) have a detection range of 1.4 km, while the 10 km torps (Type 93 mod 2) have a detection range of 1.7 km.  The difference is 0.3 km, which both torpedoes will cross so quickly as to be nearly the same.  If it mattered, however, the Fubuki would again have an advantage in this regard over the Kagero that is slated to replace it.

 

Reaction times would depend on factors such as where the torpedoes were spotted and the ship trying to evade.  Most torpedoes are spotted by aircraft, hydro, or non-targets before they reach their detection range of the intended target, and a battleship will need more time than either torpedo will give it to evade, while a DD can probably evade either one with that kind of detect range.  About the only advantage here is that the Fubuki can lay down more concentrated torpedo salvos that eliminate space between torpedoes that allow a ship to thread through them.

 

 

For actual reaction times, you'll have to check a current spreadsheet.  I don't have those exact numbers, but I believe the effect is pretty much as I have stated (and observed).  In general, you always want faster torpedoes at closer ranges, but the factors in torpedo effectiveness are a combined sum of all factors, not just reaction time.

 

[Special_Kay]

Oh, oh wow. I didn't even read the full comparison until just now. You think going from 57kt/15km to 67kt/10km is a net loss, because you can't get within 10km... or what? Guaranteed radar death?

 

Is launching torpedoes at 12km+ targets really how you play? If so, the destroyer changeover isn't going to change your chances of ranking out.

[Jakob_Knight]

Oh, oh wow. I didn't even read the full comparison until just now. You think going from 57kt/15km to 67kt/10km is a net loss, because you can't get within 10km... or what? Guaranteed radar death?

 

Is launching torpedoes at 12km+ targets really how you play? If so, the destroyer changeover isn't going to change your chances of ranking out.

 

 

The speed difference is a net loss because you lose the -capability- to have the 15 km torpedo option and can -only- use the 10km torpedoes (which I have used in Ranked this season to get used to them, with heavy losses when radar has been used in those battles) with a longer reload time and fewer torpedoes fired in a more limited way.  I play at 12km+ when the probability of facing multiple radar-equipped cruisers is high, along with planes, hydro, and other DDs, all of which make closing to 9km to have a chance to engage the enemy a very lethal place if you are spotted.  Ranked is different due to the fewer number of ships as well as ship choices, so radar is not as much of a factor as in a normal game.

 

 

Again, my point is this change is happening while the competition is going on.  I have never said I intend to rank out, which is simply an assumption on those who have thought I did.  However, how high I end up getting will be affected by this change, making it quite important to me.  More, at least I have multiple ships to change out to should I need to, but there are people whose only T8 ship for ranked is the Fubuki.  Now, for the last week, they are expected to take a nerfed Kagero (the one with T9 stats currently is considered one of the worst, if not the worst, DD in the line as it is) as their competition ship and still perform the same, even when the Kagero is demonstrably a DD that performs differently and in more than one important way, falls short of the ship they have been using.   And people think this is fair?

 

 

WG is doing this with the full knowledge of what this will do.  If it goes forwards, it will prove their lack of veracity in gaming, and no one would be happier if it never happened than I.  However, the description of the event and its timing seem all but certain.

 

[groomsiebelle]

I stopped ranked at 15 until I could grind out my Bismarck, as the consensus seemed to be Fubuki in ranked was not welcomed by most teams.  Once I entered ranked with my Bismarck, however, I was struggling and I also saw how many Fubukis there were, so I went for it.  Wishing I had done so sooner (lesson learned), as I am doing better in ranked with Fubuki.

 

I had assumed wargaming would not shift the IJN line while ranked was in progress for the reasons you pointed out--it is one thing to add a ship (like the Royal Navy cruisers) but another to take away.  Wargaming can do as they see fit, but I'm not exactly thrilled if this proves to be true. 

 

It would be nice if wargaming had an announcement indicating how all of the splitting will be handled, to confirm speculation on things like premium camo, upgrades (ex: my concealment modification will not follow Fubuki, so will I be refunded, have it go into inventory, or simply lose it), captain skills, credits (selling the T8 Fubuki will be different than selling the T6 Fubuki) and all the other questions players have.

[tooboku]

So it's not just the torpedoes that make a good torpedo boat. You need to consider the boat itself too. Kagero has better concealment, her engine is more responsive, and 4x2 is much more efficient at ambush than 3x3. The spacing on 4x2 is more consistent where as with the 3x3 tends to either over stack the torpedoes or leave gaps - especially when you get to Shimakaze's 5x3, where you can save a launch for later.

 

... but honestly. Use the freaking guns. The Type 3 are the best stealth fire guns in the game. Forget Fletcher. These are more accurate and do more damage per hit.

[Jakob_Knight]

So it's not just the torpedoes that make a good torpedo boat. You need to consider the boat itself too. Kagero has better concealment, her engine is more responsive, and 4x2 is much more efficient at ambush than 3x3. The spacing on 4x2 is more consistent where as with the 3x3 tends to either over stack the torpedoes or leave gaps - especially when you get to Shimakaze's 5x3, where you can save a launch for later.

 

... but honestly. Use the freaking guns. The Type 3 are the best stealth fire guns in the game. Forget Fletcher. These are more accurate and do more damage per hit.

 

 

I don't consider a 0.2 km difference anything workable.  They have the same effective concealment.  By the same token the Kagero's -less- responsiveness is low enough to make no difference.  They have the same agility.  4x2 is -not- more efficient as 3x3.  Besides not getting off as many torpedoes, more of your torpedoes will miss the target, you will have less control over where your torpedoes go, and you will have -more- gaps in two spreads of 4 than 3 spreads of 3.  That doesn't even take into account that the Fubuki will out-shoot the Kagero because its tubes reload significantly faster ( 19 seconds faster in combat is an eternity), and that the Fubuki can engage three targets or trajectories where the Fubuki can only engage two.

 

 

As for the guns, any IJN DD that uses its guns against anything but another DD is a dead DD.  Period.  The loss of concealment combined with the slow speed and low rate-of-fire means both of these ships will sign their own death warrants by engaging in a gunfight, and that has been well-established since the beginning of the game.  The only time this is not true is when the IJN gets two full salvos into the opposing DD before the other DD can return fire, or the target is engaged with another ship.   An IJN DD lives and dies by its concealment, and firing guns all but strips away what it needs to survive.

 

 

So, yes.  The torpedoes -do- make the ship in a torpedo boat.  By definition.  Anything else is simple avoidance that these ships -are- torpedo-centered ships and expected to use them unless the situation calls for desperate measures.

 

 

I suppose, though, that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Special_Kay]

Interestingly, the T7 ship Hatsuharu, which is slated for T6 in the new sub-line, is scheduled for the contest at T7:

 

Weekend 3: 11/18 – 11/20

Starts: 17:00 Pacific/00:00 UTC

Ends: 16:59 Pacific/11:59 UTC

 

[...]

 

Destroyer – Tier VII HATSUHARU

 

Perhaps they will change it to Akatsuki, and they simply don't want to tip their hand. Or perhaps they don't intend to release the new sub-line so soon.