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Battleships, are they balanced? Video and Discussion Inside!

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Well are they?  Wargaming says yes.  Stats from places like Warships.today... suggest otherwise.  Why?  I honestly don't know.  Personally I'm a bit miffed by the notion just based on the minimal stats we get from places like Warships.today.

 

Want to know more?  Here is a video to put on while you are looking at other things on the internet.  Link to the stats spreadsheet for the weeks of 10/7/16 to 10/21/16 that were used int his video is contained in the description to the video.  Personally, the German BB's are far and away performing better than either of their peers and that trend is across all four servers.

 

 

Of course, keep in mind that stats do not bear out the full truth of whether or not they are actually balanced... but it is interesting that subjective opinions are in line with the stats and overall feel.  It is far easier for me to do well in a German BB than it is for me to do well in a USN or IJN BB.  Also consider the context in which the stats are presented.  As an example, are German BB guns ALWAYS more accurate than the IJN guns?  Or is it just because they are closer to the action they hit more frequently?  What about air kills?  Some interesting theories out there.

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I would say that no, they are not balanced despite what WG says.   I think they are wrong on this one.

Edited by Hangoverhomey
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I'm going to say no.  Between a Battleship and a Cruiser, the Battleship has a massive advantage in winning the duel.  The cruiser has less range, less armor, less hp, no heal, far less alpha and short ranged torpedoes.  I'd say a Battleship and Destroyer are pretty well balanced, they can delete each other, but a Cruiser can't delete a Battleship unless it's with torpedoes, most of which require suicidal ranges.  There's a definite balance problem between these two classes.  Yes a cruiser has other uses, but when it comes to fighting, there's just no match for a cruiser against a Battleship for most of the tiers.

Edited by Sventex

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^ I agree that cruisers need a little bit of help, although with the new Steering buffs, they are doing better.   A cruiser should never be expected to be an even match for a battleship.  That being said, Battleships themselves are not balanced.  From Tier 3 all the way to the top, between the nations I feel there are fairly large discrepancies in their performance currently.

 


 

Do I expect WG to do anything about it? Not a chance.

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Of course, keep in mind that stats do not bear out the full truth of whether or not they are actually balanced... but it is interesting that subjective opinions are in line with the stats and overall feel.  It is far easier for me to do well in a German BB than it is for me to do well in a USN or IJN BB.  Also consider the context in which the stats are presented.  As an example, are German BB guns ALWAYS more accurate than the IJN guns?  Or is it just because they are closer to the action they hit more frequently?  What about air kills?  Some interesting theories out there.

 

I feel like part of the reason why the KM BB line is doing so well is because it drew lots of experienced players down to lower tiers. For example, no one who is interested in naval history will pass on a chance to play the Bismarck. However, i agree that KM BBs are slightly better than their counterparts tier for tier. 

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I feel like part of the reason why the KM BB line is doing so well is because it drew lots of experienced players down to lower tiers. For example, no one who is interested in naval history will pass on a chance to play the Bismarck. However, i agree that KM BBs are slightly better than their counterparts tier for tier.

 

  Maybe WG wants them to be slightly better as well, who knows.  I'm just going to take it for what it is I guess as again I don't see it changing.

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A cruiser should never be expected to be an even match for a battleship.

 

By that logic, a destroyer should be absolutely no match for a Battleship either.

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By that logic, a destroyer should be absolutely no match for a Battleship either.

 

 

That isn't even remotely the same thing.  It's the destroyers job in this game to hard counter BB's and Again in a 1 v 1 gun fight, no they shouldn't win.  That's what the speed, smoke and torpedoes are for.

 

 

The whole purpose of the battleship is to take hits and give them back.  Why should everything else be able to do the same equally?  What would be the point then, of a BB?

Edited by Hangoverhomey

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That isn't even remotely the same thing.  It's the destroyers job in this game to hard counter BB's and Again in a 1 v 1 gun fight, no they shouldn't win.  That's what the speed, smoke and torpedoes are for.

 

 

The whole purpose of the battleship is to take hits and give them back.  Why should everything else be able to do the same equally?  What would be the point then, of a BB?

 

Destroyers don't counter BBs in any way, not even with torpedoes. Ever heard of WASD?

While i'm fine with BBs being able to effectively neutralize cruisers, DDs should be able to do the same to BBs. Right now, the rock-paper-scissors balance is tipped to the BBs' side. 

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Destroyers don't counter BBs in any way, not even with torpedoes. Ever heard of WASD?

While i'm fine with BBs being able to effectively neutralize cruisers, DDs should be able to do the same to BBs. Right now, the rock-paper-scissors balance is tipped to the BBs' side. 

 

I get torped all the time, I also don't have much problem with torping enemy BB's.  Just my opinion.   A DD that has the drop on me is my worst nightmare besides a stream of cross pattern CV torp drops when I'm in BB's.
Edited by Hangoverhomey
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I get torped all the time

No offense, but that's because you aren't being careful enough. I very rarely get torped in my BBs. 

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No offense, but that's because you aren't being careful enough. I very rarely get torped in my BBs. 

 

In his defense, as a BB main with decent stats in them... I get torped pretty frequently too and it's not because I'm not WASDing, it's because I've been out smarted by a DD  and he either launched short or launched close enough to where I couldn't avoid them all.  It happens to ALL BB players.  Unless they plan on returning USN BB maneuverability back from the CBT... in which case expect a NM to be untouchable by pretty much anything, including CV's.

 

As for the idea of German BB's having higher stats because of experienced players, they've been out for two months, I think using the 2 week stats should eliminate most of the heavy stat padding done due to the super experienced players grinding through the lines (if any of them really do that any more).  I do, because I like doing the How to Play Videos which requires having a fundamental understanding of the ships to do correctly.  Not that I'm a "super experienced player" but you get my point.

 

Good DD captains can DEFINITELY be the hard counter to Good BB captains.  There are ways to launch torpedoes to make avoiding them entirely nearly impossible if you aren't expecting them and that's exactly what good DD captains capitalize upon when launching torps.  It's pretty rare to launch a set of torpedoes and have a BB captain EXPECT them to come unless you are the last thing left and they are spotted or you were recently spotted.  Usually when BB's suddenly dodge it's in response to other ships in the game shooting at them or that they are exposing a broadside to.

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I'm going to say no.  Between a Battleship and a Cruiser, the Battleship has a massive advantage in winning the duel.  The cruiser has less range, less armor, less hp, no heal, far less alpha and short ranged torpedoes.  I'd say a Battleship and Destroyer are pretty well balanced, they can delete each other, but a Cruiser can't delete a Battleship unless it's with torpedoes, most of which require suicidal ranges.  There's a definite balance problem between these two classes.  Yes a cruiser has other uses, but when it comes to fighting, there's just no match for a cruiser against a Battleship for most of the tiers.

 

Unless the cruiser is an Altanta, and has magic fire-spam capabilities.

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Honestly, I think that this thread will be better suited to CVs. Why?

   Currently, although BBs are imbalanced in how they play against each other, they are still playable (at least the USN and KGM lines which I have most experience in), and, although they're heavily armored, both US and German BBs can be brought to heel by exploiting the mistakes that they make.

 

However, USN Carriers are completely, totally, and in every way lagging behind IJN carriers, partially due to their lack of versatility due to low number of squads, partially due to each and every one of the IJN specs being better than the US spec of that type, and partially due to the recent power-creep in AA levels of all ships.

 

So, if you could find a video illustrating this, and post it on the CVs thread, then I would be much obliged.

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Unless the cruiser is an Altanta, and has magic fire-spam capabilities.

 

Are you kidding? Atlanta is one of the easiest cruisers to kill. Low range, bad armour, very low HP.

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Are you kidding? Atlanta is one of the easiest cruisers to kill. Low range, bad armour, very low HP.

 

Yes, but the islands they hide behind while sending shots orbital have GREAT armor and hp.

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Destroyers don't counter BBs in any way, not even with torpedoes. Ever heard of WASD?

While i'm fine with BBs being able to effectively neutralize cruisers, DDs should be able to do the same to BBs. Right now, the rock-paper-scissors balance is tipped to the BBs' side. 

 

WASD only works to a limited extent. When a destroyer gets right up to you, there's no way to dodge and no time for your secondaries to react. Frankly, when I see a full-health destroyer closer to me than I like, I will unload my shells at him/her, regardless of whether I have AP or HE loaded.

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WASD only works to a limited extent. When a destroyer gets right up to you, there's no way to dodge and no time for your secondaries to react. Frankly, when I see a full-health destroyer closer to me than I like, I will unload my shells at him/her, regardless of whether I have AP or HE loaded.

 

Which is entirely the right play.

 

If a DD gets by your cruisers, it's a big issue.

 

And often I find myself extended past my cruisers, because if they went out with me, enemy BBs would delete them. But still, someone has to push, so I do.

 

I'm not gonna lie, I have gone into games with my Dunkerque to purposefully hunt down the enemy DDs, simply because the cruisers aren't able to hunt them aggressively enough.

 

Like it or not, a salvo of 15in+ shells is far deadlier than any torpedo attack

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Good DD captains can DEFINITELY be the hard counter to Good BB captains.  There are ways to launch torpedoes to make avoiding them entirely nearly impossible if you aren't expecting them and that's exactly what good DD captains capitalize upon when launching torps.  It's pretty rare to launch a set of torpedoes and have a BB captain EXPECT them to come unless you are the last thing left and they are spotted or you were recently spotted.  Usually when BB's suddenly dodge it's in response to other ships in the game shooting at them or that they are exposing a broadside to.

 

As the skill levels and tiers rise DD's torpedoes become less of a constant threat (especially IJN).  There's a perceptible difference between dealing with a 15 point Minekaze and a 15 point Fubuki.  The Minekaze is unlikely to ever be within your Tier 5's secondaries and has the best torpedoes in the IJN Tech Tree.  It has a massive speed advantage and can relocate for a new strike within about 40s.  Fubuki is limited by Radar, an abundance of float aircraft, a speed that is barely above the KMS BB's, and sonar.  The odds of it launching its passable torpedoes and getting spotted within secondary range are extremely high.

 

Towards the upper limits of skill, DD's (particularly torpedo-centric IJN) are not a hard counter to BB's.  Torpedoes will slow them down, and temporarily deny area.  But they won't kill a BB who maintains situational awareness.

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Destroyers don't counter BBs in any way, not even with torpedoes. Ever heard of WASD?

While i'm fine with BBs being able to effectively neutralize cruisers, DDs should be able to do the same to BBs. Right now, the rock-paper-scissors balance is tipped to the BBs' side. 

 

They seem to do so just fine as long as the torps aren't being sent out at 10km and expected to hit. Send a stealth 9 torp spread at 7km against a BB moving at high speed and no matter how it maneuvers, if you've got a good broadside angle on the BB, that's a dead BB. WASD works when head on or at very long distances, not so much when coming in from short-medium ranges with a side angle and the torp spread is as big or bigger than a ship with an 800m+ turn radius. At that point the BB is screwed no matter what.
Edited by Molonious

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cruisers should not be able to directly in a gunnery battle challange BBs. they're already buffed a ton compared to how they'd really do. what cruisers need tools to do other rolls better. and I think WG knows this, hence why the British CLs are specificly designed as "DD bullies" 

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Aye, they could also add additional consumable abilities to Cruisers that allow them to better act as support and harrassment units. It's fine if they're objectively inferior to BB's in every combat sense, if they've got a suite of other abilities that influence game outcomes strongly in other ways. When you look at engagements that occurred in real life, Cruisers didn't generally directly engage BB's just on their own, or when they did they didn't do so for long. Mostly they harrassed BB's, provided AA support, shadowed BB's and kept their positions reported, assisted attacks alongside BB's, dealt with submarines and destroyers, provided additional spotting and ranging, etc. Emphasizing those abilities to a greater degree would make the game a whole lot more interesting and provide additional utility that doesn't necessarily upset combat balance in a weird way.

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Honestly, I think that this thread will be better suited to CVs. Why?

   Currently, although BBs are imbalanced in how they play against each other, they are still playable (at least the USN and KGM lines which I have most experience in), and, although they're heavily armored, both US and German BBs can be brought to heel by exploiting the mistakes that they make.

 

However, USN Carriers are completely, totally, and in every way lagging behind IJN carriers, partially due to their lack of versatility due to low number of squads, partially due to each and every one of the IJN specs being better than the US spec of that type, and partially due to the recent power-creep in AA levels of all ships.

 

So, if you could find a video illustrating this, and post it on the CVs thread, then I would be much obliged.

 

Find a video? I made the above video! :)  CV's will come out eventually, probably last.  DD's will be next since apparently no one understands IJN DD's and that their stats show balance.

 

 

They seem to do so just fine as long as the torps aren't being sent out at 10km and expected to hit. Send a stealth 9 torp spread at 7km against a BB moving at high speed and no matter how it maneuvers, if you've got a good broadside angle on the BB, that's a dead BB. WASD works when head on or at very long distances, not so much when coming in from short-medium ranges with a side angle and the torp spread is as big or bigger than a ship with an 800m+ turn radius. At that point the BB is screwed no matter what.

 

This.  Hitting with IJN torpedoes is surprisingly easy if you aren't spamming them from max range.  Or at least in my experience with playing IJN DD's, it isn't difficult.  They all play best with torpedoes at the edge of their detection range and at long range with guns.

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I think battleships are fine right now. I don't believe their needs to be balance at each tier with the exception of 10. Each line should have a tier or two where they are better than the rest. If WG can't get more CV's in the game they may need to buff US BB's but, I believe in general they are fine right now. 

Edited by slashman2015
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