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Alright... We all know WG does not have any appreciation for either KMS or IJN fleets but can we all agree that German DDs out of all silver Axis lines need help the most? If you don't agree or consider KMS DDs to be balanced as they are let me show you why they need love: 1. Ammunition choice is pathetic: Their AP hurts but it has insanely low pen for the caliber, weight and muzzle velocity (pretty sure they took the Krupp value of a potato launcher) and against broadside DDs it will just overmatch while bouncing if they start to angle even the slightest. KMS DDs are supposed to be AP DDs yet Daring and Kebler are way way better in both AP and HE. Talking about HE... We all know how German HE works, it has insanely poor damage but gets 1/4 pen to compensate. Except it doesn't on DDs for some odd reason... They literally have the insanely poor alpha (it feels like the sailors are shooting at the enemy ships with their pistols...) but no 1/4 pen whatsoever... Is even more dumb when you consider that they have the same caliber as the same guns on BBs that get the 1/4 pen (128mm) 2. Torpedos are a joke: "They reload fast" is what many people claim but is not true. Sure, compared to IJN torps is fast reload but compared to the Mk 16 that are better in every single way just to get 10 seconds slower reload... Is a joke... Also how on Earth French DDs with their very high alpha get faster reloads that German DDs that their entire torpedo gimmick is fast reload...? Just as a little comparison: Yeah... they don't look even close to a Tier 5 vs Tier 10 comparison, it looks way more like two torpedo options for the same ship kind of like Sims or Loyang as T-22 have almost a 50% faster reload but Z-52 gets improved range and a extremely minor increase in damage (only 700 in 5 Tiers) and that pretty much tells you everything about how poorly this torps scale with the tiers... 3. Smoke is utter garbage: Why do they have the worst smokes in game? Just why? The smoke only lasts 70 seconds and it has the slowest cooldown of all smokes... Is there any historical reason that I was completely unable to find or is WG and their arbitrary "let's fck with axis ships"? Please I really need to know why theirs smokes are so bad... 4. Mobility: If you play Minotaur, Smolensk or any other agile CL and then jump into a Z-52 you feel like the Zerstörer is the cruiser... Is not a Harugumo or Khaba but specially the acceleration and turning circle are insanely poor. If you ever get your engine damaged and you were not moving or going slowly... You basically are dead as even a Kremlin accelerates faster than you, is an absolute joke how poor their engine perform even though they have a decent amount of horse power behind them. And no, the acceleration module does not help much because even if you run all the engine related upgrades (Engine Room Protection + Propulsion Mod 1 + Last Stand) getting hit in the engines is a death sentence and with how big and clumsy you are... You are going to get hit a lot 5. HP Progression: Yes, the good old formula for HP based on tonnage I know... But how can a Tier 10 have ONLY have 800 more base HP than the Tier 8...? How...? For example Akizuki has around 5.000 base HP gap between her and her bigger sister. Sure, most examples are less noticeable but for example Daring (that completely destroyed KMS DDs small niche) has a 4.900 base HP gap between the lightning and herself. Another example: between Udaloi and Grozovoi there is a 4.800 base HP gap. See a common trend here? Most DD lines get very healthy with the Tiers and the Tier 10 has always superior bulk compared to the lower Tiers. Except for KMS DD... 800 extra HP (yes yes Survivability Expert gives more HP to T10 I know) for a Tier 10 compared to what there is two tiers prior is a bad joke... And yes, tonnage is very similar as Z-23 and Z-46 were HUUUUGE DDs for the era while Z-52 barely increased their weight but come on, don't give the same fcking excuse as Odin, balance should always be priority and your HP formula was never followed strictly so make Z-46 and Z-52 have the bulk they deserve. 6. AA: Aw yes the ultimate topic but I will try to keep this only to this DDs and don't touch the CV side of things. All German ships relied on their mid ranges (ships like Salem and Minotaur also did) and Z-52 used to have a very impressive 9 flaks in the mid range that was not on par with Grozo but still was quite impressive and could do some wonderful work against Tier 8 carriers (has several games with over 50 planes shot down with one reaching 72) while being decent against T10s. Never an AA monster but could do some decent work. Then the mid range flak got Thanos snapped and Z-52 lost almost half it's AA as it could only put a mediocre 5 flaks in the air with the long range AA. It was a big hit as now even self defense was barely imposible but you could do some work as an AA scort ship and helping BBs when they were getting dropped. Now the 2 extra flak is gone and the original AA got smashed to only 33% of the original flak (with no change to the crappy DPS)... 3 flaks will only hit planes once in a blue moon and most of the time Z-52 is just easy food for CVs although that is not a particular issue to this ship, just a general issue of all DDs that get slothered every CV match. 7. CONCEALMENT: 6.1km... Why? Both Daring and Grozo have a better flat 6km while Harugumo get's a quite decent 6.2... Having Z-52 stuck between all those monsters is a death sentence and your only defense is the smoke + hydro but if the enemy is half competent they will just turn away and disengage in no time as you can only spot them for around 10 seconds with the limited range. They will wait until the smoke vanish and completely destroy you with their far far superior DPM while you either pray for the AP to not bounce or shoot potatoes at them with your insanely poor HE. At least is not as awful as Hayate with the same insanely poor 6.1 but that doesn't make Z-52 good by any means. Possible solutions: 1. General HP buff to high tiers: Make Z-46 and Z-52 actually have HP progression so they can contest caps without dying in a single radar or small mistake. My suggestion would be to make Z-46 have 22.100 base HP and Z52 have 24.200 to match the progression of other lines. This may sound like much but remember that Daring has Heal, amazing smokes and wonderful DPM to keep her alive while Z-52 has... Nothing? As they stand right now, Daring has higher HP plus the heal, wonderful mobility and the glorious UK smokes 2. Fix the engines/buff smoke: It makes no sense that the damaged engine cripple them so hard, it should get fixed and just slow down the acceleration like any other ship as these are DDs, currently is similar to the no sense of Henri speeding up like a Colorado. Their smoke also needs some big buffs either to the cooldown to make it similar to UK smokes or heavily increase the action time because as is stands, they have the worst smokes in game with no reason whatsoever for it 3. Buff concealment and/or give heal: Z-52 should have the unique trait of being able to stealth hydro, not by much but at least give a small 0.1km window so Zed doesn't always have to be on the back foot and can actually make good use of her only decent aspect. 5.9 concealment would allow her to avoid the much much dangerous gunboats but not enough to match UU Gearing or the torpedoboats. This would work well with the HP boost but if WG doesn't want to buff the HP then give both high tier German DDs a small heal like Grozo so they can contest caps more easily and resist a bit longer 4. Buff AP pen but decrease arming distance: That way it will still bounce when ships angle against it but it won't overpen DDs and will be able to citadel CLs at medium/close ranges. Don't make it as strong as Kebler AP (even if the AP DD should have the best AP and Kebler just took the niche because reasons) but strong enough so you don't have to be under 3km to citadel a broadside Minotaur (no joking, look it up). 5. Either make HE actually do something or give it the 1/4 it should have: As mentioned before, KMS DDs give up the HE damage to gain absolutely nothing in return. Don't even say that the high AP damage is what they get because that is more than countered by their awful pen and overpening DDs constantly. Choice is yours WG, either give it mini Harugumo capabilities or buff the HE damage so it can actually sink a enemy DD in under 2 minutes with constant fire. Their reload is quite slow for Tier 10 standards, they need shells to match that slowish reload and the mediocre amount of 6 guns (many DDs also get 6 guns at Tier 10 but they offset that with either good reload or awesome alpha) 6. Make torpedos be more useful than a simple decoration: As they stand, they are just worse Mk 16 torpedos with no real advantage. You could implement a very nerfed version of what submarines get and make the turn very slightly for a short period of time (only around 10 degrees traverse either side and for only 5 seconds) on bigger ships (kind of regular DW torpedos) and work against DDs like any other torpedo. That would make them land slightly more hits but without being the tracking monsters that we saw last round of testing with Submarines, just a very minor automatic correction in course near the target, that's it. this would be historically accurate as Germans used magnetic torpedos. Alternatively you could also drastically buff the torpedo reload (to around 60 seconds base) so it actually becomes a good part of the KMS DDs but would still be balanced due to their very low damage, small amount of torps and not amazing speeds/detections. 7. 150mm line would not be a solution: Even though I would absolutely love to see a second branch with the cruiser guns... It would not solve anything for the 128mm gun branch, they would still have a lot of problems just eclipsed by a hopefully better line with actual strengths. Would be awesome and should happen in the future? Yeah of course. Does it solve the massive powercreep of KMS DDs? No, not at all. Conclusion: WG you obviously don't need to buff all the aspects above, just choose a few or the ones you consider more important please HP and guns but you need to do something to make this line decent again... The low tiers are decent and some ships are very very fun like G-101, V-170 or T-61 but both ships above Z-23 are a joke... They don't have anything to even hope to put a fight against the other DDs around T10 and that's a BIG issue. Do not make them OP but please, don't let one of the oldest lines get so powecreeped...

Until Rank 5 I rarely saw Z-52s. Now they seem much more frequent. What's up? I like the Z-52 for Randoms, but 10.5 km torps are tough in the land of perpetual radar. Often only 1 or 2 DDs so the hydro smoke thing doesn't seem as powerful. P.S. I've been running radar Yueyang mostly.

A very seasoned former clanmate of mine advised me, a long time ago, not to set out to get a Gearing because it wouldn't be worth the time and effort. This person told me "There are no bad ships, just ships you haven't learned to exploit." This guy was not snide or condescending to fellow clanmates or a user of phrases like "git gud" (whatever that means). ....So now that I might have brought this topic back to life, lemme know what you think about it.

Plain and simple, the Z-52 is in a very akward state in the game as of right now. With the addition of the Daring, the Z-52 has no unique trait besides fast loading torps. And with the new flooding mechanic, those torps got HEAVILY nerfed. Even though they reload fast, they are close to the worst torps in the game. Concealment is mediocre, guns are mediocre, speed is mediocre, large size...etc. I mean where does this ship really stand out? Hydro? That's very situational and almost useless with all the radar ships. Fast torp reload? its a total of 8 torps that do very little damage? The Z-52 is a tier 9 ship in its current state. What are all your thoughts??? The fact it has the lowest damage of all DD's with the fastest torp reload is proof enough wargaming needs to examine and buff the Z-52

Looking at the teams I see the red team has no radar so I play very aggressively knowing the only way I'll get spotted is if an enemy dd gets close then I can just smoke up and hydro.