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So with most people seemingly embracing subs as fun, and, while of course tweaks would be needed (I mean in general, do any of the ships in the Halloween Ops work 1:1 the way normal ships in normal modes work?) I think it can be safe to say that Wargaming has proven that, within the established mechanics, subs can work. The rest, aka the most difficult part, is balancing between each other/other classes/broader rebalancing around them. But let's pretend, for a moment, such a thing is 'easy' and rectified; what do you see the tech trees looking like? When you stop and consider it, there are actually an abnormally high amount of sub classes and members of those classes, to say nothing of famous outliers like the Surcouf. And yes, there are MORE than enough subs for a few nations (US and RN especially) to have more than 1 line (how they would differentiate them, perhaps with different torp types or things of that nature, is anyones' guess). The beautiful thing about subs is, baring a few cases, almost NO paper ships are required, more than can be said of almost ANY surface ship line. Now the trees I propose, obviously take with a grain of salt, are predicated on one common idea: that *historical* submarine speeds will not be adhered to and instead artificial speeds will be chosen on the basis of balance; so for example a Gato couldn't go at 27 knots on the surface, but for balance purposes, if it's at T8/9, it probably should. My justification for this change? If DD's can get unlimited torps (as would subs), and DD's get stealth field generators, and BB's get (mostly) the unique ability to heal, and (soon) CV's will have unlimited planes, and it's HE, not AP, that starts fires, and the million or so OTHER things ignored for balance purposes, I feel giving subs a little kick in the [edited]for surface speeds is NOT a huge ask. So to start, because I know this is where WGing would, my proposed RU Sub tree is as follows: Tier III: Osetr Class; a good semi-mini Sub with 3 tubes, 2 fore, 1 aft, typical of what I assume a TIII sub would have to be (much like how TIII DD's are). Tier IV: My gut says the Akula, but they may want that for a Premium, so failing that the Kaiman class could fit at T4, although it's still more of a mini-sub than a full patrol sub. Tier V: Bars Class; about as big of a WWI sub as you'd expect to see and slow diving will make her interesting at T5 Tier VI: Dekabrist Class; very likely the T6 (in fact the one I am most sure of) as this is kinda exactly what a Post WWI RU Sub would be expected to be like; for reference, it's very close to an S-Boat in capability, and was fairly modern in design for the time. Tier VII: Shchuka Class; solid Tier VII; very much a pre-War boat, not flashy, but fairly modern layout for the year of launch Tier VIII: S-Class; basically a German Type IX. This isn't supposition either; these boats were developed alongside Germany and really were basically a Soviet made Type IX. Likely a solid T8 based on the size of the torp armament and the assumed jump in underwater ability/range Tier IX: K-Class; honestly this is a tough one; they were great boats, but at TIX might be a bit too far for them. It's not hard to expect Russian subs to get some fantasy upgrades beyond that of their peers, but the K-Class is tough to place; either a strong T8 or a weak T9. The Whiskey, although much newer, could fit here with the Zulu after but that might require some downgrading. Tier X: Zulu Class; I imagine most of the Tier X's would be soon-ish post war designs, and most, if not all, of them will CLOSELY resemble the Type XXI's, because of how influential these were, and the Zulu's are basically the Soviet version of the Type XXI. If the Zulu's are too large/too many tubes, then a Whiskey Class can fit in snugly for largely the same reasons. Royal Navy Tier III: D-Class; heavier than most Tier 3's but it can be balanced with so-so torps Tier IV: E-Class; stereotypical WWI era RN Boat Tier V: L-Class; On par with other Tier V's, especially by having the RN Mk II 21" Torp Tier VI: S-Class; one of the most work-horse like subs in the world Tier VII: T-Class; a hard to maneuver but hard hitting Alpha strike capable sub Tier VIII: V-Class; what else would be the RN T8? Tier IX: Amphion Class; about as heavy of a WWII sub as you're going to find outside an Axis Nation Tier X: Again, as usual, it's a Type XXI derivative, the Porpoise Class KM Tier III: Has to be U1. A bit underpowered for Tier III? Yep, but the first German boat HAS to be the U1. Tier IV: Type 19; ironically a bit more powerful perhaps than the other Tier 4's (and more flexiable with equal aft and fore tubes) Tier V: Type UBIII; heavy for a Tier V with a big old deck gun, but this is the stereotypical WWI era U-Boat. Tier VI: Type IA; although newer than most T6 boats, she was basically a rebuild of WWI era boats Tier VII: This is the tough spot. Do you make it the Type VIIC? Is a Type VIIC op for Tier 7? It might be, but here it goes Tier VIII: If the Type VIIC is too strong for T7, then it goes here (with the Type IID at T7); otherwise, this might be the only Paper sub needed; either a Type VIII or Type IX with some kind of downgrade for balance Tier IX: Type IXC; similar to, but far more flexible than, the Gato class. Tier X: Obviously, the Type XXI; it keeps coming up for a reason USN Tier III: C-Class; oh how I want the Holland to be in the game, but the sad fact is she would struggle at T2, much less T3; the C-Class is the earliest USN Sub class that resembles a WWI era sub Tier IV: L-Class; rare Tier IV with a deck gun (which I think will be the US 'thing') Tier V: S-Class; these were great boats, serving all the way into WWII. Could be OP for T5 depending on how they are implemented (otherwise it would be an R at T5 and the S at T6). Tier VI: Salmon Class: This is when the US started designing boats as 'Fleet Boats' and were comparatively heavier armed than most other nations. Tier VII: Tambor Class; very heavy torp armament for a T6 and super long ranged, probably one of the most successful interwar Subs Tier VIII: Gato; yeah this one's tough too, as a Gato can be tuned to be very powerful at T8 or T9, but I think of T8 as when the 'real' ships show up and future USN Subs followed the Gato (with a Guppy upgrade) example for many decades to follow Tier IX: Balao w/ Guppy IIA upgrade; while technically post war, compared to other T9's this sub will be trading any chance of AA/surface fighting ability for longer undersea time w/ the USN standard of very heavy armaments Tier X: Part of me really thinks it should be the Nautilus, although balancing an SSN at even TX would be hard due to 'unlimited' dive time (but for fairness, light for T10 torp armaments to say nothing of being oversized and an easier target). There might be a way to do it but that's up to WGing, the Tang-Class is the most appropriate probably because, you guessed it, it's basically an americanized Type XXI. IJN Tier III: You *maybe* could do a Type I, with some futzing with torps/spotting to make it fair, otherwise it's a bit underpowered at T3; it's basically a Holland (spoiler alert: until ~WWII, almost all IJN subs are basically 1:1 copies of foreign made subs) Tier IV: Ha-3 Class; a C-Class (Royal Navy) sub. Very much what I would expect a Tier 4 Tier V: Ha-7 Class; Basically a home-made Ha-3; give it better torps Tier VI: S7 Type; kinda small, but it gets Type 93's so it's hard to complain Tier VII: Kaidai Type II, very heavy deck gun and torp armament, as the IJN Subs start to transfer into being oversized Tier VIII: J1; the IJN would never look back from basically building undersea cruisers Tier IX: I-400; oversized? Yes. TX material? Maybe. Should it be a Tier 9 though? Yep Tier X: I-201, although not STRICTLY a Type XXI it was basically developed on a parallel course and might as well just be a Type XXI; a speed demon in her own right, this is a *solid* TX boat, even compared to post war entries. French Tier III: Tier IV: Tier V: Tier VI: Tier VII: Tier VIII: Tier IX: Tier X:
To get to the CV on the Tech tree, why do I have to go through FIVE ships? What about diagonal advancement? e.g. Hashidate > Chikuma > Kawachi > Hoshu Same with Hashidate > Umikaze It's already on Isokaze > Minekaze