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In addition to Gato's specifications, how to play her and a conversation about if she is worth her price in steel, I also cover the history of the real USS Gato and her class, along with touching on the touchy issue of shotgunning in submarines. Watch on YouTube The first time I added it the thumbnail appeared and then disappeared. Trying again. https://youtu.be/5CZMoW8JTzs Since the thumb and embed seem broken, please use the links above... the thumbnail for reference was manually added. I'll try one last time to embed the link below. If it does not appear please use the links above.

These are stats for just the EU server, I am sure the numbers are worse on NA and on RU (due to the current conflict). If the current curve continues, wows has perhaps two years left until it completely collapses. The future looks bleak and short. The game is also bleeding established players at an alarming rate. The most experienced players are leaving in heavy numbers. New players rarely stay, with retention being something like 0.7% Conclusions: Submarines are a poison pill. Wargaming need to put them in their own game mode or it will kill the game entirely. I try to be positive, and have moved to submarine play. My conclusion is that submarines utterly break the game, and do not belong. Player seem to have agreed, and are leaving. Soon world of warships will have less players than launch day in 2015. There will be no future unless wargaming are willing to accept their design mistakes and rectify them, and soon.

We're back once again, this time with Italian subs! No, Homer I mean literally; submarines. Huh, as a former Naval Reservist, I figured he'd want to stick around for this? Oh well. So, yes, the Italians. Yet another nation who saw fit to split their submarine types between large ocean-going (i.e. "cruiser" subs), and smaller coastal/ sea going types. Now in fairness to them, this does make a lot of sense as Italy knew most of time any fleet actions that they took part in would be limited to the Med. And being a long peninsular nation sticking right out in the middle of it, having a large number of smaller coastal type SS's is quite sensible. In fact, Italy sort of followed the trends of other prominent European navies of the day (but mainly the French) in creating this force. Right down to the 600 tonne series boats and even an attempt at a Surcouf-esque cruiser! Now while this does mean that Italy in theory could craft 2 separate lines much like we saw with Japan or LATAM, there is one crippling flaw; Italy surrendered in 1943. This meant that they not only didn't get very far in any advanced submarine programs they might have had, they weren't even allowed to manufacture or operate submarines until 1952, despite being a founding member of NATO (more on that later). In other words, queue the G/B/T boats once again for high tier fun! Ok, ok enough hyperbole. What does this actually mean in terms of Italy's SS branch? Well reader, I will once again showcase the Cruiser and Coastal/ Sea Going SS's concurrently and allow you to decide which one is more worthy or if both can and should be implemented. Nonetheless, we can still glean some general traits from these boats as to how Italy overall will perform. Generally speaking, I expect that the cruisers will offer large size and health pools but poor stealth. They'll also feature strong deck gun capabilities (firing SAP of course) typically either 3.9" or 4.7" weapons but favoring smaller numbers of TT's (rarely more than 8). Likewise the medium subs will also have some same features and while they'll be stealthier overall will have similar numbers of TT's and usually only one deck gun. Typically 3.9". Speed will be, well I'll say above average but not best in class. Maneuverability however will be average but they will have best in class in one specific feature; dive speed. This will (hopefully) mimic somewhat the Italian smoke gimmick by allowing the otherwise not very stealthy boats to transition above or below the surface quickly. Offensively the torpedoes will be, like the rest of the Italians lines, slow moving but very long ranged with below average to average damage. An alternate torpedo can also be provided that will be fast and very short ranged to allow for quick strikes that can follow up with the deck guns (ideally). You decide which ones are homing. Now I know what some of you will say "So you basically just want to encourage shotgunning?!" Well yes and no. Obviously a fast, short ranged torpedo would do exactly that but given the salvos we're talking here plus again, weak-ish fish menas unless you're specifically targeting low health ships or just get lucky with a detonation, that's a very high risk maneuver if you are caught. Anyway enough game theory, let's have a look at the boats shall we? Tier VI (Cruiser): Balilla-class / (Medium): Perla-class * No schematic drawing of the Balilla, so have this photo instead. The Balilla-class were one of the first classes of submarine commissioned after WWI remarkably, launched in 1927. They were true ocean going types, meant for operations in the Red Sea and Indian ocean which they never saw service in, and instead were just turned into transport submarines. Displacement comes in at a healthy 1427/1874 tonnes and was armed with six 21" TT's in the usual 4 fore and 2 aft arrangement. The deck gun was a oddity though, as it was initially armed with a very short 27 calibre 4.7" OTO but were later upgraded to a proper 45 calibre one. Might make for a good hull upgrade feature? Anyway as for the Perla this is one of the infamous 600t series boats, most of which are pretty iterative in design. I simply picked the 3rd series ships to represent here as a nice 'middle of the road' option, but I wouldn't be surprised if any of the other subclasses were chosen here over Perla. 620/844 tonnes displacement and yet again, 6 TT's with 4 in front and 2 in back. You do get a 3.9" gun though, which is nice. Tier VIII (Cruiser): Calvi-class / (Medium): Flutto-class The Pietro Calvi-class were in essence just embiggened and improved Balilla-class boats and were meant to perform the exact same mission. Displacement now rises to 1525/2028 tonnes and the armament while not bigger is simply more-er. 8 TT's now in the typically Italian 4 fore and 4 aft layout. And instead of just one 4.7" gun here we see two. Overall this ship is a perfect linear development to put in our tier VIII cruiser slot. With regards to the Flutto, this class now becomes something very different. Although they were ostensibly based on the design of the last 600t boat, the Fluttos were designed with wartime experience in mind. Larger, faster with better seagoing capabilities and improved constructability saw four dozen of these ships get planned with the intent that they would single handedly replace all previous coastal boats. Sadly by the time of the armistice, only around a dozen or so boats had been completed. Displacement came in at 930/1093 tonnes which is still light for a tier VIII but still 300 or so tonnes heavier than the preceding Perlas. Armament unfortunately, remains unchanged from the previous class. Now some of you theorycrafters out there might be thinking "Really? Flutto? That's the best you can come up with? Where's the Marcello? Or the Marconi-class? Arguably the most successful and well known Italian submarines of the war! Why not those ships?!?!" A fantastic and fair question frankly. So lets talk for a moment about the Marconi-class: These rather attractive looking boats were technically cruisers in the sense they were meant to be ocean going patrollers. Buuuuuut, they only displaced ~1190/1465 tonnes and carried the ol' reliable 3.9" deck gun rather than the big boi 4.7". Otherwise torpedo armament was the same as the above Calvi, with 4 forward and 4 aft tubes for a total of 8. The slightly older Marcello-class, which the Marconi's were based on featured double deck guns but were otherwise similar. These boats were considered the best Italian submarines of WWII and one Marconi in particular, the Leonardo da Vinci was the highest scoring non-German submarine of the entire battle of the Atlantic and Italy's top scoring submarine of the war overall with over 120k tons of allied shipping sunk. So why, oh why wouldn't I just make a line out of those and older boats?!?! One simple reason: tier X. Well, okay two reasons the other being I really think LdV needs to be made a premium so there's that. So let us see what horrors await us at tier X: Tier X (Cruiser): Cagni-class / (Medium): Vortice / (Wildcard): G/B/T series (Torricelli-class) So, the Cagni. These massive cruisers were designed specifically for commerce raiding in the open ocean so even calling them 'Cruiser Submarines' isn't really correct. Displacing a hefty 1653/2136 tonnes they were considered fast, highly seaworthy and generally excellent boats. Due to the specific mission they were tasked with, the main armament is uh, interesting to say the least! Fourteen, yes 1,4 TT's of not 21" but rather 18"! Why? Because they felt such a torpedo was enough to sink an unarmored merchant, plus they could fit more torpedoes by being smaller. 8 tubes foreword and 6 aft gives you a lot of ways to scare the bujesus out of people but I'd imagine these torpedoes would have low range and damage due to being well, 18" torpedoes. And to top it all off, two 3.9" not 4.7" guns on the deck, again for the same reason as the torps. This ship could, could have the potential of being a monster and it would certainly be an unique experience at tier X for sure! But does that unique experience gel with the other boats that came before it? Personally, I'm not so sure and if it were up to me it'd be a tier X premium. Maybe you think differently though, maybe the small caliber armament can be overlooked if gimmicked up appropriately? I'll leave that up to you dear reader. As for the Vortice, This is actually a Flutto-class boat that was, er saved from demolition by being a floating battery charger. In reality, she was used as a secret training submarine until 1952 when all pretenses were dropped (in large part due to the irony that Italy was both a founding member of NATO and not allowed to build or operate submarines) and she could be used properly. During this time she was completely rebuilt with modern features but sadly, this meant that her rear TT's had to go so her armament only consists of the 4 forward TT's. As an upgrade to the older, wartime Flutto's, this is a sensible follow on sort of. But once again the armament vexes us, as the torpedoes would have to be massively buffed to give her parity with other tier X SS's even other 'coastal' ones. This just leaves us with Yup G/B/T boats yet again. I chose the Torricelli's because they are Balao's and one of them did keep it's 5" gun so that's, something? The real question becomes though, where and how would you implement these ships? They are large enough to be considered a cruiser, yes. So that's one option, hell they could even be used to follow on from Marcello if you really want to go that route! Then you'd just need a tier VI to flesh out that lineup (Spoiler alert: It'd be the Pisani-class). But the bigger question at hand is; is that what we want? Yet another American top tier submarine in another nations SS line? Sadly, there's no good answer to this and none of these 3 options are truly ideal. But in the end, Italy nonetheless deserves to stand alongside the other great sea powers with their own unique subs, in whatever form that takes. So it was exhaustive, but there we have it. Italy. Let me know what you think below! Do you want to see the intermediate Ocean going subs represented? Do those tier X ships work for you? Anyway stay tuned for the next installment where I tackle, the French.

Thank you wargaming for almost completely ruining my enjoyment of this game. What am I referring to I ask you? Submarines! Their presence until recently, at least, was tolerable. I have been out of the game for a few days due to illness. And when I logged in today and started playing co-op to knock some of the Rust off, I immediately had my butt handed to me over and over by submarines. OK, and in all fairness in one match, it was submarines and aircraft carriers smacking me at the same time. Now mind you this was coop. I really feel sorry for a brand-new player having to deal with this crap. I'm not sure how you're gonna end up retaining these new people. For that matter, I'm not even sure how you're gonna continue to retain me. I am accustomed to random mode being a miserable experience. But Co-op, come on this is ridiculous. I realize that no matter how much myself and others fuss and complain about submarines, they're not going away. But did you have to make them so overpowered? Perhaps I just need to vent a little bit.

Weclome back! Today we'll be looking at the brand new upcoming submarine line for the Netherlands! Now granted they're still in testing with their original British names but say hello to Dolfijn, Zeehond and Zwaardvis! Kidding, kidding! (BUT NOT REALLY) While it is true that the Netherlands operated all three of those classes of submarine, and if we really wanted to could even make a 3rd copypasta line of those same boats in the Pan European line too (and have each boat represent a different nation that would be new to WoWs no less!) no I'm not going to do that. Because the Dutch deserve better and they have better! Truly unique and interesting submarines that can cover all 3 tiers! And just what would the Dutch do differently? Well, their boats are going to be kind of powerhouses actually. 8 TTs across the board and while that may not seem as impressive at tier X will be at tiers VI and VIII, especially as the Dutch will get to play with traversable TT launchers, similar to what I displayed in the previous Swedish sub thread. Their boats are also characterized by good HP pools and fast surface speeds (but average underwater ones) and, because they were the nation that invented the submarine snorkel, should have hefty dive capacity as well for tiers VIII and X (in lieu of a snorkel mechanic, yaknow, actually being implemented in the game?) By contrast, the ships actual torpedo power will be rather modest despite the broadsides and their underwater mobility will be meh. Lastly they'll also feature pretty average stealth as well. So without further ado, lets have a look at the real botes! Tier VI: K XIV-class Developed from the preceding O 12 class, this series was not only designed to correct the deficiencies of it's predecessor (namely that they were unstable and prone to rolling) but improve the design with better construction and a feature that would, erm feature heavily throughout 1930's Dutch submarines; the traversable twin TT launcher. You can see where it's installed from the above image in that rectangular cut out, just forward of the deck gun. This gives this ship a total displacement of 865/1045 which is impressive for tier VI up to this point and a total of 8 TTs. 4 forward, 2 aft and the aforementioned twin launcher. And to top it all off, an 88mm gun. Overall, a reasonably impressive boat for something that was just meant to patrol the Indonesian archipelago. Tier VIII: O 21-class Essentially just a non-minelaying repeat of the proceeding O 19-class, these boats represented the final class of submarines but by the Netherlands until they were overrun. Larger, faster and deeper diving than the preceding ship, it nonetheless has the exact same armament layout of 8 TTs and an 88mm gun. It should be noted that the O 19/21s were the first submarines in the world to use a snorkel which the Germans ended up developing further for use on their own U-boats. Tier X: Dolfijn-class The Netherlands first postwar submarine, and like so many others was heavily influenced from the rapid advances in technology in the latter half of the 1940's. In fact, the base design of this boat was completed by 1949 but the submarines were not approved for construction until 1954 and didn't get commissioned until 1960! Despite this very long lead time, the subs were still considered state of the art incorporating a, then quite radical "triple hull design". This gives her a displacement of 1520/1830 and is armed, once again with 8 TTs in a symmetrical 4 forward and 4 aft layout. Before I end this, I do want to give some serious consideration to the above mentioned British boats that the Dutch did use. In particular the 'T' boats as a premium tier X. As I mentioned in my earlier thread about the Dutch destroyer line, the British ships used by the Netherlands were crucial to preserving and later rebuilding their capability both during WWII and in the immediate postwar period. the T's in particular were, for a good time through the late 1940s and the 1950s the backbone of the Royal Netherlands Navy submarine force and should be commemorated. So there you have it, proving once again why the Netherlands deserves its own national tree in the game. Next up, we head to the far east. Stay tuned!

In most of my recent co-op matches, i've been playing either subs, or lower tier destroyers on the grind for the sub lines. A thing that has been blatantly obvious to me is that the AI enemies are tracking and attacking players (usually myself) while undetected, often without having been detected at all up to that point in the match. It is most often by the opposing CV, but can often be opposing DD and CA ships.. CV behaviours often take the form of an attacking run by rocket planes, first turning on a direct intercept course, and even beginning diving attacks, while still undetected. DD and CA behaviours take the form of ships obviously following an exact path that I am taking in order to use their depth charge attacks, again while undetected. Frequently they will head directly to my location, which is not a direct forward path from the starting location, and use their hydro ability once they are less than 1km away. There is no reason for that ship to even suspect that I might be there at that point as I have not used my sonar, nor have I been detected. I am aware that the AI by necessity are always aware of everything because the AI opponent is the same system that we are playing the game on, but i would think it an obvious thing that AI opponents should effectively ignore any undetected ship, boat, torpedo, for as long as they remain undetected... It is reasonable that some simulacrum of prediction should occur as that is human player behaviour, but the actions shown by the AI opponents are not simple prediction, but are reactionary. I should not be followed by a ship while undetected where if I make a turn, it also makes a turn, and then when I turn in the opposite direction, it ALSO adjusts course to follow. It entirely negates the detection system as it makes it obvious that the AI opponents can always detect you no matter what.

Support submarines cannot torpedo, only drop mines and call in airstrikes. These were real ships In world of warships, for gameplay depth, there would be a choice of mines. He mines, low damage but large detonation proximity, and high fire chance. AP mines, high damage but smaller detonation proximity. Mines remain stationary for 120 seconds, then drift apart randomly. After 240 seconds, the mines sink and are no longer dangerous. Airstrike - 1 squadron of rocket planes that are optimal for self defense against destroyers and light cruisers, with high probability of breaking modules, but low damage. Example: UC-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_UC-5, X-1 Italian Navy. UC-5 had an impressive career, with 30 ships sunk for a total of 36,126 GRT and 1,105 tons on 29 patrols. in 1915-1916 Armament: UC 120 mines in 6 double (6x2) 100CM mine laying tubes

It would be great to get a submarine that has smoke screen, it would add a lot to the game in ways I am *sure* will be fun.

Cross drop [x] Shotgun [x] Porpoising to stop the objective [x] Full screen, so you can read the confused comments from the enemy players.

USS Stingray (SS-161) with Lt Cmdr Tom Dodge as Captain would make a fun premium to add to the Game, the Horn can play Louis, Louis, when you hit the C button in game the Voice tag "prepare to Dive" sounds. Kelsey Grammer to do the voice lines. I does not need to have anything fancy, other than camo and built in Econ pack, there will be those that buy because it is a fun reference to the Movie "Down Persicope" @Ahskance @Boggzy how about a bit of fun?

Hooray? Not quite. (My NB Star game and another pass ticket from U-69.) Just love the removal of proximity spotting. It's such fun when the bot sub follows you half the game like some kind of (redacted) pervert; close enough to cop a feel of your backside, yet you can never see it because spotting mechanics were so jacked with, all because subs spent too much time killing each other. Cry me a freaking river. Neither one of the so-called 'spotting tools' we're supposed to use did any good. Hydrophone because the bot was too close, apparently, or it gave some worthless ghost image Ping couldn't hit. Submarine Surveillance takes so bloody long to charge, and never showed anything of use when it did finally charge. WG; you had someone who was accepting of subs, or at least indifferent to them; but what you have now after the most recent changes is complete garbage. If nothing else; offset spawn the subs, so this kind of stupidity is less likely to happen.

So why does hydro not spot submarines? It can spot any other ship in the game through terrain, but it can't spot a Sub which is directly under my ship? and if it is supposed to, is it just not working?

I'll try to be as biased as possible, I've played submarines and I don't like them out of operations I'm what you would call terrible with them I admit that... but as a Battleship player that I've always been, it's already frustrating for me to deal with torpedoes from the destroyers that you can at least evade but that a submarine appears to you at 3km while you are aiming at the opposite side exceeded my limits, I am not saying that they eliminate the submarines (although that would be good news) but since the Battleships are unplayable in a certain way Period, because you can lower 60% of HP to a destroyer with a well-placed AP salvo, but neither with the air attack nor the secondaries can you do more than 6k to a submarine since there is a problem that nobody wants to see

It is well pass time to limit CVs to one per team per match. It is time to limit subs to one per team per match. These matches with 2 CVs need to stop. The matches with 3 subs need to stop. The matches with 2-3 subs and 2 CV per team REALLY needs to STOP! Put a hard limit on these classes per team.

Towards the end of this replay, I am looking for suggestions from both games and wg employees on what count play is available to a cruiser running hydro and attempting to dodge a shot gun acoustic salvo from a sub. From nearly full health to barely surviving after being unable to damage a submarine less than 3km from my ship because he was 30m down. (given that the blasts from depth charges do not reach out to that 3km range) There's a degree of counter play that can be done against most ships at this range that isn't available against this class(subs). Wargaming may be ok with dusting this under the rug, but this is frustrating players. I'm not attributing all loss of players to submarines, but lack of counter play against situations like this will lead to question what other games they can spend money on. 20221111_173234_PGSC107-Yorck_41_Conquest.wowsreplay Server data below Current https://stats.wotapi.ru/stats/wows/na/total Data from graph using a post from a 2 years ago

*I have the Sub I-56 and he need Up time Batteries because is very short time deep Water. * Add Hydro he is total blind for hunt subs deep water. * add Decoys Subs, the it is a can that the submarine throws from the stern, it consists of making foam to deceive the enemy hydrophones for a short period so that it can escape. *decorative Crane Up in port Question the I56 had Planes? or torpedoes Kaiten?

Showing pings with a white wave and then the ping path significantly reduces the stealth of subs. Showing them at periscope depth also degrades their capabilities. The only counter is a single ping and firing from deep while backing down.

WG: Sub players are being routinely verbally abused in game chat and having their karma hit hard just for playing a sub. I see "Your karma decreased by 1" or "Your karma decreased by 2" nearly EVERY - SINGLE - GAME. I've never experienced that before in your game when playing surface ships. WG, you guys wanted subs in the game hell or high water, jammed a square peg into a round hole, and most people are extremely angry you did; and they are taking it out on the sub players. The least you could do is disable the karma system so that we sub players (and probably CV players too) aren't constantly abused.

Bow surface dwellers, the new Lords are coming... On a more serious note, 2 Submarine matches tonight, in both of them the Submarines ranked top 3 on both sides (don't count that U-190, she had a close encounter with a certain other Submarine and her game was cut short ;P)... it looks like it is no longer something exceptional for Submarines to deliver solid performances, the Sea Wolves are out hunting , beware. And knowing your opponents are able of course makes it all the more sweeter to hunt them and kill them

... it's subs. Oh my god I am really hating this game now. Who's with me? People even "joke" in-game about reporting the locations of their subs to the other team.

Ain't she sweet, all decked out in her yellow camo (nod to the Beatles) and check out that conning tower art (nod to Das Boot)! I even have a Smart Aleck in command! I have 0 games played, I know, I know; keep it that way... She joins my GZ and together they become the dynamic duo of disdain in the game. So break out the Rolaids and the Excedrin because it's about to get real. Real funny, that is...

Sometimes you just need to keep quiet...

Cachalot is so bad that you can't even provide a "clean death" to your targets, you are condemned to this relentless pinging from afar (closing distances in this beached whale is not something I would recommend). Doesn't feel too fun from this side neither, it is like pricking people with a needle... just tormenting people with pings and unreliable homing torps, poor Aoba, I felt bad for the guy...

That moment when your target proves able to dodge homing torps... little he knows he just made the sh!tlist shotgunlist. There's no escape in here! Remember, shotgunning is difficult to pull and is not too frequent as to require any particular fixing.

The more you tell me to not do it WG, the more I want to keep doing it... you can't protect them enough! The mission is: Seek & Destroy