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SireneRacker posted a topic in Prototypes and Concept ShipsHeyo, a month or two ago @MutsuKaiNi asked me if there were any designs for a German Atlanta. To my knowledge, no. But I promised to create one from scratch (so basically what WG did with a good number of Russian BBs, according to their Developer Diary), and it would be a waste if I just left it to rot on my hard drive. The entire background of this is a huge what-if. What if Germany had the time and resources to pull through their Z-plan? What if the war had not begun in 1939? What if Germany realized the need for dedicated anti-aircraft vessels? Now while one can argue the likelihood of all these events ever happening, they do in combination result in this thread. And here it is, what would be if Germany decided to convert one of their K-class cruisers into an AA cruiser? How would this take shape? What would be the most likely changes? If it is not obvious yet, I shall make it clear now: All the changes while based on actual events or ideas or concepts, have been merged in what is a product of my creativity. There was to my knowledge no plan to make something even remotely similar to this. To avoid confusion, I will imagine a fourth K-class ship and apply everything to her. I will give her the name Kassel. The K-class ships were named after German cities starting with K, and Kassel meets that criteria. Step 1: We un-suck the K-class The first few changes are rather obvious. We shall apply the refit that Karlsruhe received, that was also planned for all the other light cruisers not called Emden. Since we have moved the beginning of the war at some other point, this is a plausible step. What it does is adding bulges to the side of the ship, rearranging the searchlights, strengthening the hull and thus making her more seaworthy. Additionally Kassel would receive a 14mm upper belt and a 16mm upper deck, which would give splinter protection (and probably be useful against strafing aircraft, heh). Probably the most important change however is that Karlsruhe after her refit was capable of carrying the 105mm dp gun, which she did for the final months of her career. Since this gun will be the main armament later, enabling the ability to carry them is essential. A downside is that the speed drops to 30-31kn, and the cruising range is also going down. All of the things in this paragraph have been applied to a K-class vessel in reality, and are thus not fictional. For visualization, this is a plan of Karlsruhe after her refit. Step 2: We un-suck the K-class, round 2 We know that Köln (the only surviving member of the class after the occupation of Norway) would trade in her rear pair of torpedo launchers and her catapult. This will also be applied to Kassel, which will open up space for smaller arms and remove a fire hazard from the midship section. Since my drawing skills suck, I simplified the drawing by removing things such as lifeboats, cranes, etc. We do however keep in mind that they take up space. Step 3: We initiate the refit And now we are somewhere around 1942, the first units of the M-class are entering service, we still got those old K-class grannies around but thanks to their refit they can no longer keep up with the more modern vessels. What to do…? Smart idea, we turn them into an AA cruiser! The US has those fancy Atlanta class ships, and what they can do, Germany can do as well (not really, but anyway). And now we are entering the section where I start making things up, but will back the changes directly or indirectly. Our weapon of choice? The 105mm gun. Solid. This was the standard heavy AA weapon of the Kriegsmarine, being mounted on all heavy Cruisers at this stage, all Battleships and was also planned for future capital ships. The first step in our refit is now that the main turrets will have to go. As sad as it may be, there is no use for them on a ship which shall dedicate itself to AA duties. So begone! This would also include the rangefinders for the main armament, of which the one on the conning tower and the one on the rear superstructure would be removed to open up space for other equipment. Additionally there are also the two 3m rangefinders on the side of the foremast, which will be removed. These were initially serving the purpose of directing the torpedo armament and night fighting. However, as Kassel will be serving as an AA vessel her torpedo armament will be a weapon system which won’t be used regularly, so the room that we’d get would be well used on other equipment. Now there’s plenty of room to use. But an artillery gun can’t just be placed anywhere, a link to the magazines is needed to feed it with ammunition. That is thankfully covered, we still got Kassel’s main battery hoists. So three hoists per barbette, each delivering around 65kg of cargo every 7.5s (to reflect the RoF of the previous main guns). A complete round weights around 27kg, so we can be sure to transport two rounds with every hoist every 7.5s, so total supply per barbette is 48 shells every minute assuming that no hoist modifications take place. With that in mind we can say that each barbette can feed up to two twin mounts for a sustained output of 12 shells per gun and minute. Ready ammunition like it was usual would allow for the output to be initially higher. As for the placement, I went with this: Step 4: Fine-tuning Now that is all nice and well, but there are a few more things to do. Next up is fire control equipment. We made room for a few fire directors. Using the AA fire director we got already, we can take two more and add them. One around the conning tower, a second one around the rear superstructure. The reason for having two at the rear is that there are six mounts, so to allow for split fire directing like the Germans loved to do two would be provided. An important thing to note here is that the AA fire directors will also be directing the torpedo armament. German warships allowed for the fire directors to feed different systems if needed, so if the torpedo armament is needed, an AA fire director will feed the data to the torpedo computing room and thus a torpedo firing solution will be generated. Also note that these rangefinders work just as well against surface units, however I decided to let one 5m rangefinder remain on the ship for ASu warfare. Kassel is shaping up already, though we are not done yet. There is obviously a lack of medium and small caliber AA armament. For that we have to look at what was given to Köln, Emden and Nürnberg starting 1944. Aside from the usual array of 20mm guns, there is also the 37mm M42 and the 40mm Bofors being adopted. The Bofors however was acquired through the occupation of several European nations, so given the scenario we are in right now the Bofors falls out. The 37mm M42 however remains as an option, and from what I can gather six twin mounts can be equipped, assuming that the German standards of gun mount placement do not change. As for the 20mm gun, following the German arrangement patterns we saw on other K-class vessels and some cruisers, there would be room for in total ten twin mounted 20mm FlaK38s. As a note for the picture, I only later on realized that the structure itself on which the catapult rested before remained on Köln, so I added it afterwards. I also made some smaller corrections and additions which include the crest, of the city of Kassel, a smaller platform around the two superfiring 105mm guns for the gun crew and corrected some smaller errors here and there as well as adding at least some sort of watermark. Dimensions: - 174m long, 16.8m wide, up to 6m draft Displacement: - 6,300 tons standard load - 8,000 tons full load Machinery: - 68,200shp or 1,800shp, depending on type of propulsion - 31kn speed under steam, 10kn speed under Diesel - 3,500nm under steam, 6,500nm under Diesel Armament: - Sixteen (8x2) 105mm/65 dual purpose guns - Twelve (6x2) 37mm M42 - Twenty (10x2) 20mm FlaK38 - Six (2x3) 533mm Torpedo launchers Conclusion: How likely would these steps be in reality? I'd say quite low. With the war breaking out in 1939 no extensive refits could be afforded by the Kriegsmarine, hence why only Karlsruhe was the only one to receive the refit. As there weren't that many The refit however does have a few changes whose impacts can't be estimated by me. If someone knows what would happen, feel free to let me know. For example there is a very noticable loss of weight above the waterline. The three 15cm turrets had a weight of around 410 tons. Their replacement with five 105mm twins means that a total weight loss of roughly 270 tons took place. Adding this to the removal of the catapult and two torpedo banks means that the lost tonnage is around 400 tons, if not more. This might result in an increase in speed and improved stability, as well as a longer cruising range. Also I am not sure how the hoists would be affected by this. Could their delivery rate be increased given the lighter individual load? In its role as an AA ship Kassel would outperform anything that was German. Plenty of long range triple A as well as a modern medium and short range suite would ensure close range defenses, although the medium and short range is by no means special. Fire control wise by refraining from using the tri-axial stabilized 3m rangefinders that Prinz Eugen for example carried there is a good deal of potential lost, maybe it would get replaced with more modern equipment, maybe not, I don't know. Against anything larger than a Destroyer Kassel would stand no chance. The armor being very thin for a ship in the 40s, and only standing up against Destroyer caliber fire and against strafing aircraft, and sort of surface engagement would be risky at best, suicidal at worst.
I have 3D modeled the M class light cruiser and 2d mapped it some years back for the book I published and donated the illustrations to Wikipedia. I was bummed a little bit that they haven't opted to put them into World of Warships. The Yorck is somewhat close, but it's not the same ship. Here is a 2d illustration that I made to use on Wikipedia, and for my book. I am working on making it more realistic and more detailed. here I started positioning the guns over the line drawings of the M class. on the bottom is the model of the Yorck. I outlined the guns in orange so view the model better. I made the model parts invisible with the outline to show better the positioning. The M class had a narrower hull and shallower draught. A fore projective angle. I am also modeling USS Nevada1943, and Andrea Doria from Giulio Casars hull and guns.
LL_JuneBug posted a topic in Creative ContentSo, one of the problems that Germany had at the end of the 1930's was that their Navy had 6 light cruisers and other than the last 2 being barley adequate to count as any kind of a serious sea going combat ship, it meant that they basically had 2 ships that they could use as light cruisers to accompany any larger capitol ships. Now mind you this was in the years that Admiral Reader and Hitler was making their Christmas wish list. You know 6 to 10 new Battleships, 6 new M class light cruisers, 12 new P class armored cruisers, 4 aircraft carriers, 24 destroyers, ext. LOL, If Germany could have built even half of that in 6 years with the Idea that they were going to start stuff in 1944 to 46, you know that Briton and France would have craped their pants and be building ships in reply. Then the Italians, Japan, America would have been hitting their yards with new ships. It might have not went on the scale of what the 1890 to 1910 arms race was, but it would have been a mini arms race. It might have made WW2 more interesting though if Germany did actually start the war with at least 4 to 6 Battleships, and somewhat of a larger fleet even though the British empire and France would have enlarged theirs also. Plus I dont know if the aircraft tech would have advanced at the same rate. I think a lot of things wouldn't have been as advanced until war caused it to have to be figured out. Anyway one of the idea's that German Ship Designers considered albeit not very seriously was to take the hull for Seydlitz and finish her into a Hipper class heavy configuration, except instead of mounting 8 - 203mm (8"guns), they proposed to mount 12 - 150mm (5.9" guns) in four triple super firing turrets. This would have solved the design issues of the M class cruisers completely. They would have been way ahead in the thinking of the Americans that made Cleveland's and Baltimore's from the same hulls. With a Hipper hull and the slightly lighter 15cm triple turrets, they could have carried much more fuel, supplies and ammunition for the main battery. they could mount extra AA guns, (although in 1938 no one realized, or had a lot of fear of planes yet). They would have had more range than the M class cruisers and would have been better protected, unless they thinned the armor belt to save weight. Either option would have gave them a far superior, but more expensive ship. They already had built 3 of these ships complete and were close to finishing the 2 last ones as heavy cruisers. They were dragging their feet on Seydlitz though because it was promised to the Russians under the non aggression pact that Daddy Hitler and Uncle Joe had with each other. None the less though lets say the Reader convinces Hitler that they can build more heavy cruisers later and that he would like to convert Lutzow to a medium/large light cruiser if you will and that it would be advantages to replace the K class with them or to augment future battlegroups. Hitler is in a good mood for a change and because at the time he doesn't foresee any serious strife in the near future he says ( If you think this is a good idea Admiral then it is ok to proceed. Admiral Raeder gets Goring drunk and gets him to divert a little of the Luftwaffe's money his way, along with slightly prolonging the M class cruisers construction. He gets a hold on like 4 submarines which totally pisses off Doughnuts, er (Doenitz). Dont worry he will get over it. So the next letter of the alphabet in line for light cruiser design is S, because the M,N,O, and P are scheduled, with Q, and R already selected. The Germans didn't always do this either but they were in a slight habit of naming the first, and or all ships of a letter class. For example the 3 K class were all K town names. L was Leipzig, but the second L class was Nuremberg, so hit and miss on that however the first M class cruiser was most likely to be Munich. So S. There are several towns with S. Admiral Reader had traveled through the small town of Schwanewede and was taken to the local people and countryside view there. so this name was selected for the first of the class. (note that the last sentence here is pure fabrication on my part for the story. I just wanted to establish a plausible story to establish a possible name for a fictitious ship.) So I present to you Der Kriegsmarine Shiffe: Schwanewede. Schwanewede crest The first ship of the class built with the hull and machinery of the 4th Hipper Class. This would make her resistant to 203mm shells. Launched in mid 1939. Germany classified her as a Light Cruiser but the English press wrote editorials that claimed that this ship was truly more of an overpowered light cruiser, and or an under gunned Heavy Cruiser. The French press claimed that Germany invented the Medium Cruiser, and should make their minds up. Here the guns and torpedo tubes are outlined in Orange and the front AA 37 single in Yellow. Here the same outline as seen from the top down view.
Battlecruiser_Yavuz posted a topic in Battleship EraHello! I thought this was an interesting question to pose to the community. As you guys know, the scuttling of the German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow was a great event in the waning hours of the First World War that eliminated a lot of warships. These ranged from little destroyers to grand battleships. For historical conjecture (I doubt this would've happened in real life), let's say that the Germans was allowed to maintain the ships that were heading to Scapa Flow in a disarmed state. Let's also say that the Nazi Party rises like it did in our timeline, but their new Kriegsmarine is bolstered by all of this old German equipment. If you were a German admiral looking at this fleet, what would you do with the ships? Would you scrap them all to make room for more advanced designs or would you upgrade them to help bolster the surface fleet? Also, how would keeping this fleet have affected German naval development during the Second World War? Here is a link to all the ships that were sunk at Scapa Flow during the scuttling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_in_Scapa_Flow#In_captivity Thanks!