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  1. So over the last month and a bit I've been studiously grinding out my German tokens to unlock the new German line up to and including Prinz Heinrich and have been playing said new ships and it's led me to wonder what purpose the old German BB line will serve in the future as this new line seems superior in a lot of ways. For a direct point of comparison (because I have both), I'll point to the Gneisenau and the Prinz Heinrich: So what advantages does the Gneisenau have over Heinrich? Well, it's faster by quite a bit, it has better armour plating (thicker) and a turtleback, an extra heal, and marginally better AA. It also has faster torps and it's main guns have better ballistics due to being more modern resulting in a potentially higher Alpha. It's guns are also longer ranged, though what this is worth in a brawling ship with turtleback is debatable. What advantages does the Heinrich have over the Gneisenau? 8 guns versus 6, plus one rear gun being 360 degrees meaning you can likely always have at least 3 guns on targets. It again has older style guns with worse ballistics and raw alpha potential, but on the other hand it seems to have pretty vastly superior dispersion allowing it to reliably put 6-8 shells into targets, even without dispersion mod on them, compared to the Gneise scattershotting all over the place. It also has imo vastly superior secondaries due to them also being more accurate, so even if the Gneise has GK calibre secondaries, they do not hit the target nearly as much and I seem to get much more reliably secondary dps out of my Heinrich. On top of both of those things it has extra torpedo tubes that are much better protected and don't break, with better torp reload times and a longer range for area denial, very good main gun turret traverse speed, and, unlike Gneisenau, it still has all of that damage output plus Hydro to allow it to safely push against DDs. Oh and also don't forget Heinrich's better concealment. ______________________________________ So knowing all of that now, and having seen Potato post the sec dmg charts for Zeiten and Schlieffen and such, I'm starting to wonder what the point of the old German line is. These new German BBs are certainly squishier, but what good is being tanky when you can't put down damage enough to make your brawls worth it? These new BBs certainly do that. Even if I push in and die, I'm usually making sure 2-3 other boats die with me, and especially with Hydro and torpedoes and top tier secondaries, DDs can't just charge me without very seriously risking their own rapid deaths. And when you are waiting for the right time to push, because your dispersion isn't garbage, you can actually hit things at range and do damage! The line up to Prinz Heinrich was pretty nice, but my god she really takes it to a new level, and I assume it only gets better from here. Really the only thing I wish Heinrich had was turtleback, but with how low in the waterline its citadel is that hasn't been much of an issue anyways. It seems to me old German BBs are being power crept pretty hard and are going to need some tweaks here to be considering viable and worth playing. I say this as someone that has always loved German BBs for brawling and specifically been very fond of Gneisenau. Clearly Wargaming thinks the same with the Kurfurst being replaced by something with bigger main guns, so should the rest of the line get a similar boost?
  2. Heyo, a month or two ago @MutsuKaiNi asked me if there were any designs for a German Atlanta. To my knowledge, no. But I promised to create one from scratch (so basically what WG did with a good number of Russian BBs, according to their Developer Diary), and it would be a waste if I just left it to rot on my hard drive. The entire background of this is a huge what-if. What if Germany had the time and resources to pull through their Z-plan? What if the war had not begun in 1939? What if Germany realized the need for dedicated anti-aircraft vessels? Now while one can argue the likelihood of all these events ever happening, they do in combination result in this thread. And here it is, what would be if Germany decided to convert one of their K-class cruisers into an AA cruiser? How would this take shape? What would be the most likely changes? If it is not obvious yet, I shall make it clear now: All the changes while based on actual events or ideas or concepts, have been merged in what is a product of my creativity. There was to my knowledge no plan to make something even remotely similar to this. To avoid confusion, I will imagine a fourth K-class ship and apply everything to her. I will give her the name Kassel. The K-class ships were named after German cities starting with K, and Kassel meets that criteria. Step 1: We un-suck the K-class The first few changes are rather obvious. We shall apply the refit that Karlsruhe received, that was also planned for all the other light cruisers not called Emden. Since we have moved the beginning of the war at some other point, this is a plausible step. What it does is adding bulges to the side of the ship, rearranging the searchlights, strengthening the hull and thus making her more seaworthy. Additionally Kassel would receive a 14mm upper belt and a 16mm upper deck, which would give splinter protection (and probably be useful against strafing aircraft, heh). Probably the most important change however is that Karlsruhe after her refit was capable of carrying the 105mm dp gun, which she did for the final months of her career. Since this gun will be the main armament later, enabling the ability to carry them is essential. A downside is that the speed drops to 30-31kn, and the cruising range is also going down. All of the things in this paragraph have been applied to a K-class vessel in reality, and are thus not fictional. For visualization, this is a plan of Karlsruhe after her refit. Step 2: We un-suck the K-class, round 2 We know that Köln (the only surviving member of the class after the occupation of Norway) would trade in her rear pair of torpedo launchers and her catapult. This will also be applied to Kassel, which will open up space for smaller arms and remove a fire hazard from the midship section. Since my drawing skills suck, I simplified the drawing by removing things such as lifeboats, cranes, etc. We do however keep in mind that they take up space. Step 3: We initiate the refit And now we are somewhere around 1942, the first units of the M-class are entering service, we still got those old K-class grannies around but thanks to their refit they can no longer keep up with the more modern vessels. What to do…? Smart idea, we turn them into an AA cruiser! The US has those fancy Atlanta class ships, and what they can do, Germany can do as well (not really, but anyway). And now we are entering the section where I start making things up, but will back the changes directly or indirectly. Our weapon of choice? The 105mm gun. Solid. This was the standard heavy AA weapon of the Kriegsmarine, being mounted on all heavy Cruisers at this stage, all Battleships and was also planned for future capital ships. The first step in our refit is now that the main turrets will have to go. As sad as it may be, there is no use for them on a ship which shall dedicate itself to AA duties. So begone! This would also include the rangefinders for the main armament, of which the one on the conning tower and the one on the rear superstructure would be removed to open up space for other equipment. Additionally there are also the two 3m rangefinders on the side of the foremast, which will be removed. These were initially serving the purpose of directing the torpedo armament and night fighting. However, as Kassel will be serving as an AA vessel her torpedo armament will be a weapon system which won’t be used regularly, so the room that we’d get would be well used on other equipment. Now there’s plenty of room to use. But an artillery gun can’t just be placed anywhere, a link to the magazines is needed to feed it with ammunition. That is thankfully covered, we still got Kassel’s main battery hoists. So three hoists per barbette, each delivering around 65kg of cargo every 7.5s (to reflect the RoF of the previous main guns). A complete round weights around 27kg, so we can be sure to transport two rounds with every hoist every 7.5s, so total supply per barbette is 48 shells every minute assuming that no hoist modifications take place. With that in mind we can say that each barbette can feed up to two twin mounts for a sustained output of 12 shells per gun and minute. Ready ammunition like it was usual would allow for the output to be initially higher. As for the placement, I went with this: Step 4: Fine-tuning Now that is all nice and well, but there are a few more things to do. Next up is fire control equipment. We made room for a few fire directors. Using the AA fire director we got already, we can take two more and add them. One around the conning tower, a second one around the rear superstructure. The reason for having two at the rear is that there are six mounts, so to allow for split fire directing like the Germans loved to do two would be provided. An important thing to note here is that the AA fire directors will also be directing the torpedo armament. German warships allowed for the fire directors to feed different systems if needed, so if the torpedo armament is needed, an AA fire director will feed the data to the torpedo computing room and thus a torpedo firing solution will be generated. Also note that these rangefinders work just as well against surface units, however I decided to let one 5m rangefinder remain on the ship for ASu warfare. Kassel is shaping up already, though we are not done yet. There is obviously a lack of medium and small caliber AA armament. For that we have to look at what was given to Köln, Emden and Nürnberg starting 1944. Aside from the usual array of 20mm guns, there is also the 37mm M42 and the 40mm Bofors being adopted. The Bofors however was acquired through the occupation of several European nations, so given the scenario we are in right now the Bofors falls out. The 37mm M42 however remains as an option, and from what I can gather six twin mounts can be equipped, assuming that the German standards of gun mount placement do not change. As for the 20mm gun, following the German arrangement patterns we saw on other K-class vessels and some cruisers, there would be room for in total ten twin mounted 20mm FlaK38s. As a note for the picture, I only later on realized that the structure itself on which the catapult rested before remained on Köln, so I added it afterwards. I also made some smaller corrections and additions which include the crest, of the city of Kassel, a smaller platform around the two superfiring 105mm guns for the gun crew and corrected some smaller errors here and there as well as adding at least some sort of watermark. Dimensions: - 174m long, 16.8m wide, up to 6m draft Displacement: - 6,300 tons standard load - 8,000 tons full load Machinery: - 68,200shp or 1,800shp, depending on type of propulsion - 31kn speed under steam, 10kn speed under Diesel - 3,500nm under steam, 6,500nm under Diesel Armament: - Sixteen (8x2) 105mm/65 dual purpose guns - Twelve (6x2) 37mm M42 - Twenty (10x2) 20mm FlaK38 - Six (2x3) 533mm Torpedo launchers Conclusion: How likely would these steps be in reality? I'd say quite low. With the war breaking out in 1939 no extensive refits could be afforded by the Kriegsmarine, hence why only Karlsruhe was the only one to receive the refit. As there weren't that many The refit however does have a few changes whose impacts can't be estimated by me. If someone knows what would happen, feel free to let me know. For example there is a very noticable loss of weight above the waterline. The three 15cm turrets had a weight of around 410 tons. Their replacement with five 105mm twins means that a total weight loss of roughly 270 tons took place. Adding this to the removal of the catapult and two torpedo banks means that the lost tonnage is around 400 tons, if not more. This might result in an increase in speed and improved stability, as well as a longer cruising range. Also I am not sure how the hoists would be affected by this. Could their delivery rate be increased given the lighter individual load? In its role as an AA ship Kassel would outperform anything that was German. Plenty of long range triple A as well as a modern medium and short range suite would ensure close range defenses, although the medium and short range is by no means special. Fire control wise by refraining from using the tri-axial stabilized 3m rangefinders that Prinz Eugen for example carried there is a good deal of potential lost, maybe it would get replaced with more modern equipment, maybe not, I don't know. Against anything larger than a Destroyer Kassel would stand no chance. The armor being very thin for a ship in the 40s, and only standing up against Destroyer caliber fire and against strafing aircraft, and sort of surface engagement would be risky at best, suicidal at worst.
  3. So, a couple of questions: 1. Why is WG bringing the Kriegsmarine Containers back again, didn't we see these same containers ~6 months ago? 2. Why is WG deliberately making these containers significantly less valuable for its most veteran customers? The crate details indicate: "If you already have a ship from the list in your Port, it won't drop from the container. Instead, you will get another random item from the list." So, for the biggest whales and most loyal veteran players, the crates are significantly less valuable. If you have any of the ships, and roll a ship you already have, you DO NOT get the remaining ships you don't have, you get a completely new roll, significantly reducing the chances of getting a ship. That makes these crates significantly less valuable for every one of the possible ships you already own. For example, I own all 4 ships already, so the ROI for me is very much less than for a player who doesn't own any of the ships. Why would WG intentionally devalue its products, for its most valuable customers, at least from a $ perspective? 3. Why is WG suddenly replacing a premium ship "prize" with a tech tree ship: Hipper? What am I missing here? Color me confused.
  4. Hello again everyone! It’s been… Quite a while since I posted one of these. Yeah, sorry about that. I had intended to do everything all in a row but just got completely burnt out after getting the British done. Still, the Devs have spurred me into action by releasing preliminary stats for a brand new line of German carriers. Cool! And also unexpected, I would have thought that they’d have put the alternate lines back in first. Anyway, because of that I’m going to be changing up the format from my last three threads (linked at the end) a bit. Instead of looking exhaustively at planes, ordnance, and carriers all together; I’m going to be describing how their version of the ships matches with what I came up with but never got quite polished enough to post, and then roughly going over plane stats and gimmicks. If you guys want a more in-depth look it can be added later. So, with that being said, German aircraft carriers! Carriers We’ll start our journey through the realm of what were they/is Landsraad thinking?! By, as usual, establishing a baseline with our old controversial friend, the best tier 8 cruiser in the game, Graf Zeppelin. Tier 8 Premium: Graf Zeppelin Defensive Armament: 8x2 150mm L/55 naval guns 6x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 11x2 37mm Flak guns 7x4 20mm Flak guns Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka Fieseler Fi 167 In-Game Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Me 155 (RA, 8/2, 14) Focke-Wulf Ta 152C (TB, 9/3, 16) Focke-Wulf Ta 152C (DB, 8/2, 14) Aviation Facilities: Three deck elevators Two catapults 42 aircraft complement Speed: 35 knots Armor: 30-100mm belt, unarmored hangar Displacement: 33550 tons There we go, pretty straightforward at first glance. Of course anyone who’s played Graf Zeppelin knows that this ship is anything BUT straightforward, and that all boils down to the characteristics of her aircraft. Her planes are, to put it simply, squishy. Her rocket planes are tied for slowest in tier as well, but have hard hitting 8” rockets so they can be good for catching tricky destroyers. On the other hand, her bombers were only recently dethroned from the crown of “fastest planes in the game” by Indomitable, and on top of that have their own individual quirks. Her torpedoes are slow, though not quite British slow; and her dive bombers are specialized in slinging AP bombs through belt armor by going in from the side. We’ll come back to this later, as WG has decided to capitalize on much of this for their new line, but it doesn’t matter too much when designing the ships themselves. We’ll save the discussion of gimmicks for the air wing section. But for now, onto the ships! Tier 4: “Rhein” Defensive Armament: 2x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns ? Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka Proposed Aircraft Complement: Arado Ar.68 (RA, 6/3, 9) Arado Ar.95b (TB, 8/2, 9) Heinkel He.50 (DB, 8/2, 9) Speed: 26 knots Armor: 16mm plating, unarmored hangar Hit Points: 32300 I’m having to guess a little bit on the origins of Rhein, but I feel reasonably confident in saying that this is Wargaming’s attempt to bring the planned Jade-class carrier conversion into the game at tier 4. And she does look like a respectable little ship. Let’s compare to what I was able to dig up: Tier 4: Jade (ocean liner Gneisenau conversion) http://www.navypedia.org/ships/germany/ger_cv8.gif Defensive Armament: 6x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 5x2 37mm Flak guns 16x2 20mm Flak guns Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka Proposed Aircraft Complement: Heinkel He 51 (RA, 6/3, 9) Fieseler Fi 167 (TB, 8/2, 9) Henschel Hs 123 (DB, 6/2, 9) Aviation Facilities: Two deck elevators Two catapults 24 aircraft complement Speed: 19 knots Armor: 10-15mm belt, 20mm deck, unarmored hangar Displacement: 20020 tons Keep in mind that WeeGee has not released any details on Rhein’s AA thus far. For a ship that lives and dies by aircraft this is rather annoying but hey, we’ll work with what we’ve got. I’m fairly certain that the ship is in fact one of the proposed liner conversions, the funnel, superstructure, and overall shape point to that IMO. There honestly aren’t too many large differences, mainly the number of 105mm turrets and the fully enclosed hurricane bow. The latter is a purely aesthetic choice as far as the game goes, and the former makes sense for baby’s first carrier. Their speed is also different, Wargaming opting for a buff of about 7 knots from the official speed. I’m curious about the choice of name though. I’ll acknowledge that “Jade” isn’t terribly German-sounding, but in that case her sister Elbe would fit quite well. Still, that’s a minor nitpick and Rhein would fit as either a rename of Jade or a third ship of the class. Moving on… Edit: For those who want to know a bit more, here's @dseehafer's thread on the subject Tier 6: Weser Defensive Armament: 5x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns ? Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Messerschmitt Bf 109E (RA, 8/2, 12) Dornier Do.22 (TB, 8/2, 12) Henschel Hs.123 (DB, 8/2, 12) Speed: 32 knots Armor: 19mm plating, unarmored hangar Hit Points: 41000 Before moving on to comparing the two, I would just like to point out that having a biplane as the top aircraft on a line built around having FAST planes seems rather odd to me. Tier 6: Weser (Hipper conversion) Defensive Armament: 5x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 5x2 37mm Flak guns 24x2 20mm Flak guns Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka Proposed Aircraft Complement (Stock): Heinkel He 112 (RA, 6/2, 9) Heinkel He 118 (TB, 6/2, 9) Hamburger Flugzeugbau Ha 137 (DB, 8/2, 12) Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Messerschmitt Bf 109T-1 (RA, 6/2, 9) Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka (TB, 6/2, 9) Junkers Ju 87D-4 Stuka (DB, 8/2, 12) Aviation Facilities: Three deck elevators Two catapults 20 aircraft complement Speed: 32 knots Armor: 70-80mm belt, 20-50mm deck, unarmored hangar Displacement: ~18900 tons This one I hit dead-on, didn’t even get the name wrong. And it certainly makes sense! As the former tier 6 US Independence class was based on a tier 8 Cleveland, why not base another nation’s tier 6 on their own tier 8 carrier? Weser was a conversion of the Admiral Hipper class cruiser Seydlitz that was begun but never completed. Nothing about the design seems to have changed from what has been revealed, though they did opt for 19mm plating over the ship as opposed to Hipper’s 27mm or even Mainz’s 25mm. Given that the ship is of a lower tier and less likely to be shot at directly… That’s fair. Edit: @dseehafer's thread on Weser. Tier 8: “August von Parseval” Defensive Armament: 6x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns ? Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T Junkers Ju 87D-4 “Stuka” Fieseler Fi 167 Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Messerschmitt Bf.109G (RA, 9/3, 14) Messerschmitt Bf.110C7 (TB, 9/3, 14) Messerschmitt Bf.110C7 (DB, 9/3, 14) Speed: 31.8 knots Armor: 19mm plating, unarmored hangar Hit Points: 51400 Tier 8: “Peter Strasser” (Graf Zeppelin hull B) Defensive Armament: 8x2 150mm L/55 naval guns 6x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 11x2 37mm Flak guns 7x4 20mm Flak guns Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Messerschmitt Bf 109T Junkers Ju 87D-4 “Stuka” Fieseler Fi 167 Proposed Aircraft Complement (Stock): Messerschmitt Bf 109T-3 (RA, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 87G-2 “Stuka” (TB, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 87G-2 “Stuka” (DB, 12/3, 18) Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Messerschmitt Me 209T (RA, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 187 (TB, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 187 (DB, 12/3, 18) Aviation Facilities: Three deck elevators Two catapults 42 aircraft complement Speed: 35 knots Armor: 30-100mm belt, unarmored hangar Displacement: 33550 tons I have… Feelings, about how this tier has been worked out by WarGaming. On the one hand, the ship turned out pretty much exactly as I expected. Indeed they even went with an “upgraded” Graf Zeppelin hull C that did away with the 150mm secondaries to help Graf Zeppelin remain unique. The names chosen are different, but August von Parseval sounds at least as good as Peter Strasser. But then we come to the planes. I’ll be perfectly blunt, I’m not a fan of the Bf.110 being made into a carrier-borne plane. A large twin-engine aircraft should, in my opinion, only be used for a carrier if it’s doing something that a single-engine plane couldn’t. For example, a carrier that had squadrons of fewer aircraft carrying more ordnance each would be fine for twin-engine planes (see: USS Hornet, Doolittle Raid version with B-25s). But going really fast? This is GERMANY, they have plenty of fast single-engine planes that fit the bill. Why use the Bf.110 when a Focke Wulfe 190 could do the job of a high speed bomber? Tier 10: “Manfred von Richtofen” Defensive Armament: 12x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns ? Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Messerschmitt Me.155G (RA, 9/3, 14) Focke Wulfe Ta.152C (TB, 9/3, 14) Focke Wulfe Ta.152C (DB, 9/3, 14) Speed: 32 knots Armor: 19mm plating, unarmored hangar Hit Points: 65300 Tier 10: “Oswald Boelcke” (Ersatz Graf Zeppelin) Defensive Armament: 10x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 18x2 37mm Flak guns 4x4 20mm Flak guns 12x2 20mm Flak guns Proposed Aircraft Complement (Stock): Messerschmitt Me 209T (RA, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 187 (TB, 9/3, 14) Junkers Ju 187 (DB, 12/3, 18) Proposed Aircraft Complement (Elite): Dornier Do 335 Pfiel (RA, 9/3, 14) Dornier Do 335 Pfiel (TB, 9/3, 14) Dornier Do 335 Pfiel (DB, 12/3, 18) Aviation Facilities: Three deck elevators Two catapults 60 aircraft complement Speed: 32.5 knots Armor: 50-125mm belt, unarmored hangar Displacement: ~40000 tons So once again I came out pretty close with my rough estimates to what Wargaming decided on for the ship itself. All dual-purpose secondaries, roughly 32 knot speed, basically an “ersatz Graf Zeppelin” to use the tradition of German replacement naming. I will admit that Wargaming DID solve a problem that I had with this ship, that being her air group having a bad case of Audacious syndrome and using the Dornier Do.335 for every role, but they did so by copy-pasting Graf Zeppelin’s aircraft and messing with their stats. That just doesn’t sit right with me, especially considering that Graf Zeppelin is no Saipan with regards to plane HP and lethality. I’m tempted to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I’m still worried about this whole concept all the same. Gimmick Before we get into planes and ordnance it occurs to me that we need to lay out something that I would normally just build up to in these posts, because Wargaming and I have rather different ideas on the matter. That of course is the almighty gimmick. What does this line do well? What makes it special? What makes it stand out from Japan, the US, and Britain? Wargaming’s solution to this seems to be taking Graf Zeppelin and turning it up to eleven. All squadrons are now very fast but have low health. Dive bombers are equipped with AP bombs with the same odd dive pattern as Graf Zeppelin, but an elliptical drop pattern. Torpedo bombers have torpedoes that are super slow, but hard-hitting. Rocket planes have small numbers of new armor-piercing rockets. And of course finally, the ships themselves have good secondaries as befitting their German heritage. That’s the theory anyway. Wargaming isn’t the only one with an almighty spreadsheet however, so let’s see how they stack up compared to what’s out already. To save time we’ll just be looking at the stats of the elite planes for tier 6, 8, and 10. Tier 4: Rhein Rhein puts us off to an interesting start when analyzed alongside Langley, Hosho, and Hermes. Her planes all check the “fragile” box easily when looked at in an individual light, and since squadron sizes are pretty uniform at tier 4 this holds true for entire flights as well. In terms of speed and power, her torpedo planes check both boxes necessary to fulfil the German gimmick as laid out: With a whopping 11600 potential damage per attack run (before TDS is taken into account) and 13 knots of cruising speed on their rivals these planes definitely fit the bill. On the other hand, her rocket planes are outdone in speed by Langley’s F3F Gulfhawks, though in this case they’re at least still above average. The real curiosity comes from Rhein’s dive bombers, which have the worst cruising speed in their tier at a mere 96 knots, while everyone else does either 98 or 99. Tier 6: Weser Weser seems to try and straighten out the trend set by Rhein back into what the Devs have said that they wanted. Once again all squadrons are composed of planes with, individually, the worst HP in their tier. Notably though their total squadron HP is often saved from the bottom of the barrel by sheer numbers as plane counts start to diversify. They’re also consistently high speed, coming in first or second place each time compared to all of the tier 6 carriers. The dive bombers even manage to sit at the top of the pack rather than lagging behind this time! The torpedo bombers also remain damage kings, with only Ark Royal and its three Fairey Swordfish dropping tinfish at a time beating them out in raw damage. From what the stats are saying right now, Weser looks like the most comfortable ship to play of the line. Tier 8: August von Parseval The Parseval seems to be where the cracks start to show and stats begin diverging from reality so far as gimmick is concerned. Once again their HP is all worst in tier individually, though per squadron Graf Zeppelin saves her sister from being absolute worst in terms of getting wrecked by flak (Saipan helps too). Her rocket planes are, frankly, not that fast. Don’t get me wrong, they are indeed better than average, but in a field where Saipan, Indomitable, and Lexington are all competing the deck was loaded against these planes from minute one. Only Enterprise and her F6F Hellcats manage to be “above average” while still staying slower than Parseval’s Bf.109s, and then only by two knots. Thankfully her torpedo planes fare much better, being beaten out only by Graf Zeppelin and otherwise being the only TBs to come close to the 130 knot mark. Their damage is still good too, though Saipan and Kaga dropping four fish at a time does keep her from the top spot. Then there’s the dive bombers, and they’re pretty much in the same boat as the torpedo planes while now having to contend with Indomitable and her stupid-fast Sea Hornets. Tier 10: Manfred von Richtofen Get ready to press F to pay respects, because as she is now the Richtofen looks to be dead on arrival. We’ll skip the HP for now, because it is low, but how is another matter. Speed-wise they’re all fine. The bombers both beat their nearest competitors by about 30 knots and the rocket planes take a respectable second to Midway’s F8F Bearcats by a mere 4 knots. In terms of torpedo damage they are once again in the top two only outdone by Midway. Considering that Midway drops twice as many torpedoes in a run, I’ll call that a win. But now we get to HP, and… I don’t know what they’re thinking. These numbers are bad, plain and simple. Every squadron is made up of planes with below-average HP for tier 8, let alone tier 10. Also, because they now have the same standard 9/3, 14 setup that every other carrier at tier 10 either meets or exceeds for every squadron, their total squadron HP is just as bad if not worse. The torpedo planes are the best off, they at least can claim to be within a couple hundred HP of average. The rocket planes and dive bombers on the other hand? The rocket planes just barely beat out Graf Zeppelin’s, and the dive bombers have LESS HP than Graf Zeppelin’s by 260! These planes look like they’ll simply evaporate if you even look at them funny in tier 10, no two ways about it. Well that’s WarGaming’s take on the line’s gimmick, so what was mine? Honestly I’m a firm believer in “sometimes the best gimmick is no gimmick”, so take away the AP dive bombs and rockets. Take away the fast bombers too. I know that a lot of people (myself included) were looking forward to getting the Stuka with this line, and that’s not a fast plane at all. So while my idea was for Germany to have faster but more fragile rocket planes, their bombers would have been slower and tankier (at least up until tier 10). Sort of an inverse Graf Zeppelin. And one more thing would have set them apart too. See, nothing has been done with consumables for carriers yet despite them being the main way other lines get their gimmicks. Why not start by letting one squadron (we’ll say rocket planes) from tier 6 up swap out their fighter consumable for a deployable sonobuoy. Basically it would be like the fighter cover in that it’s stationary, of limited duration, and calls in a plane that can be shot down. However instead of shooting down planes over an area this would call in search planes to put down what is essentially an immobile hydro beacon. The stats would probably be something like this: Tier 6: Aircraft: 3x Messerschmitt Bf 110E-3 HP: 2500 per plane (7500 total) Duration: 90 seconds Cooldown: 120 seconds Torp Detection: 3km Ship Detection: 3.5km Tier 8: Aircraft: 3x Me 410B Hornisse HP: 3000 per plane (9000 total) Duration: 90 seconds Cooldown: 120 seconds Torp Detection: 3.5km Ship Detection: 4km Tier 10: Aircraft: 2x Fw 200 Condor HP: 6000 per plane (12000 total) Duration: 90 seconds Cooldown: 120 seconds Torp Detection: 4km Ship Detection: 4.5km I like this idea, I feel like it really emphasizes the carrier’s role in supporting the fleet not only with damage but with recon and early warning data. Dropped sonobuoys would be especially helpful for guarding from long range torpedo strikes if timed right, as well as monitoring choke-points, and-as long as the planes aren’t shot down-flushing ships out of smoke. Now there is ONE more ship than WarGaming has revealed that I had envisioned putting in, since every line needs a premium and not everyone wants to put down money for a tier 8. So without further ado: Tier 6 Premium: “Max Immelmann” (DeGrasse conversion) Defensive Armament: 6x2 105mm L/65 dual-purpose guns 6x2 37mm Flak guns 12x2 20mm Flak guns Intended Historical Aircraft Complement: Bf 109T Ju 87D-4 “Stuka” Proposed Aircraft Complement: Bf 109T-1 (RA, 6/2, 9) Ju 87D-4 “Stuka” (GB, 6/2, 9) Ju 87D-4 “Stuka” (DB, 6/2, 9) Aviation Facilities: Two deck elevators Two catapults 23 aircraft complement Speed: 32 knots Armor: 100mm belt, 38mm deck, unarmored hangar Displacement: 11600 tons So Germany captured a lot of ships when they invaded coastal countries, as well as the facilities and industry to continue work on them in many cases. The French cruiser DeGrasse was one of those and, like so many ships in the hands of the Kriegsmarine, slated to be turned into a carrier before the Luftwaffe threw a hissy fit because they didn’t play well with others. You’ll notice that instead of “TB” for Torpedo Bomber, the Immelmann as I propose her has a squadron marked “GB”. That is not a typo. Premiums need gimmicks too after all, and while I didn’t feel comfortable giving this on to the whole line, a single ship felt fine. In this case, Immelmann’s specialty would be glide bombing, which would be sort of a hybrid of torpedo and dive-bombing when the aircraft dropped from a distance to try to hit the side of a ship, but instead of torpedoes dropped stabilised (not guided in this case) bombs that could then pierce though belt armor if aimed and RNG’d properly. The weapon in question would be this: Ruhrstahl SD 1400 X Type: Glide Bomb Warhead: 320 kg AP Mass: 1362 kg Damage: ? The Fritz X, as it was known, was a rather effective stand-off weapon when used properly. More than capable of causing massive damage to cruisers with a solid hit. In this case, we’d basically have an armor-piercing warhead with aerial-torpedo levels of damage. Penetration would probably be good enough to consistently get upper belt or casemate damage on same-tier battleships, but not enough to go through full battleship belt armor. And that pretty much wraps up how I envisioned the German carrier line and how it compares to WarGaming’s version currently undergoing testing. As always any questions, comments, or criticisms are welcome; so please let me know what you think and if you want more of this stuff! Part 1: US Part 2: Japan Part 3: Britain
  5. S_H_O_C_K_W_A_V_E

    Proposal: German Tech Tree Battlecruisers

    World of Warships Proposal Researchable Tech Tree Imperial German Navy / Kriegsmarine Large Cruisers/Battlecruisers By Shrayes_Bhagavatula Tech Tree Layout German Battleship Tech Tree Split after Tier V Konig, into a Battlecruiser line and a Battleship line. German Battleship line VI Bayern (Baden-Class) VII Gneisenau (Scharnhorst class with 380mm refit) VIII Bismarck ( Bismarck-class ) IX Friedrich der Grosse ( H-39 ) X Grosser Kurfurst (H-42) German Battlecruiser line VI Mackensen ( Mackensen-class) VII Scharnhorst (Scharnhorst-class, without 380mm refit) VIII Freya ( Odin-class ( preliminary design to Scharnhorst-class )) IX Admiral Scheer ( O-Class Battlecruiser ) X Kiel / Wolfram ( Fictional design, combines elements of O-Class BC with Friedrich Der Grosse Class ) + X Moltke ( Premium BB based on Kurfurst) The German Battlecruisers were designed to provide a counter to the American, Japanese, and Russian large cruisers. They combine powerful, fast firing and hard hitting armaments with excellent armor and high speed, while adding a useful AA defense and great versatility on top of that. As the cherry on the cake, their concealment is on par with or exceeds their Russian and American counterparts, though behind their Japanese counterparts. They have a lower number of guns compared to their counterparts, but they make up for it by having the ability to overmatch armor up to 27mm thick, as well as having a longer firing range and greater accuracy, as well as having turret traverse speeds that are quicker than their counterparts. Also, unlike their American and Russian counterparts, they wield a set of back-up weapons in the form of long range secondaries and knife-fighting torpedo armament. Unfortunately, they are also extremely large targets, very clumsy while turning, and are prone to taking citadel hits when showing full broadside. Thankfully, they have rather small citadel spaces, and the turtleback armor allows them to take a few hits for mere penetration damage. The tech tree starts with the Tier 6 Mackensen, of the Mackensen class ( originally represented by the Prinz Eitel Friedrich ), progresses through the now researchable Scharnhorst ( with some changes ), to the tier VIII Freya, where the line gets access to Hydro and DFAA ( choose one or the other, though ). The line gets access to the short-range, long-duration radar and boosted repair party at the Tier IX Admiral Scheer, and finally, the Kiel, the crown jewel of the line. Kiel has a unique set of traits that set it apart from the rest of the competition at Tier 10. She has the immense striking power of the Friedrich der Grosse’s 406mm main guns, the torpedoes of Z-46, and the massive survivability of Grosser Kurfurst-equivalent bullshittery, with judicious use of her unique repair party, while being more versatile than Hindenburg thanks to her unique Radar consumable. While she lack’s Stalingrad’s consistency, and doesnt have quite the torpedo power of the Yoshino, nor the monstrous alpha strike of the Puerto Rico, she strikes a good balance among all these traits, being capable of assaulting battleships, harrassing destroyers, nuking cruisers, and being a serious detriment to carriers. While she does have her flaws, such as a large detection radius, large turning circle, and only 6 guns, these are largely migitated by her high speed, excellent manuverability, and on point accuracy that would make Zao turn red in the cheeks. Line characteristics Lower amount of HP compared to Battleship counterparts Turtleback is fairly strong throughout the line. Small number of fast firing, low caliber guns with greater accuracy than Battleship counterparts Gains access to torpedoes at Tier VII Gains access to German Hydroacoustic Search past Tier VIII Gains access to German Surveillance Radar past Tier IX German Surveillance Radar has a shorter range than its American Counterparts ( 8.5km vs 10km), but has a longer duration ( 55 seconds ) that can be extended by using the “Surveillance Radar Modification 1” Special Upgrade Tier IX Admiral Scheer and Tier X Kiel gets a special repair party that repairs 77% of Penetration Damage and 33% of Citadel damage, as well as all DoT Hydroacoustic Search can be swapped with a special version of the Defensive Anti-Aircraft Fire Consumable, that increases the AA damage by x4 for 30 seconds Fairly powerful mid-range AA ring, and powerful long range past Tier VIII, but a mediocre short range AA ring High speed and fast rudder shift times only handicapped by a long turning circle over 900m past Tier IX Will take extra damage ( +7.5% ) from deepwater torpedoes ( and 10% from Asashio DWT ) (Note, all numbers are for top configurations with no modules or commander skills) Tier VI: Mackensen Tier VII: Scharnhorst Tier VIII: Freya Tier IX: Admiral Scheer Tier X: Kiel Tier X: Wolfram (Premium, 240,000 Coal) For these ships, we would recommend going with a survivability setup, to maximize the longetivity of these battlecruisers,especially given the massive HP pools they possess. Recommended build Main Armaments Modification 1 Damage Control System Modification 1 Aiming Systems Modification 1 Damage Control System Modification 2 Concealment Systems Modification 1 (Above Tier VIII) Main Battery Modification 3 (Above Tier IX) Commander Build 1.Preventative Maintenance 2.Adrenaline Rush 3.Superintendent 4.Concealment Expert 5. Priority Target 6.High Alert 7.Basics of Survivability 8.Vigilance Flags India Delta November Foxtrot November Echo Setteseven India Yankee Juliet Yankee Bissotwo Economic Flags recommended, but not advised for all the time Tier X: Moltke ( Premium BB, 63,500 Research Points ) Moltke is another proposal. It is essentially a Grosser Kurfurst with 458mm guns and an altered secondary and AA layout, along with boosted HP, armor, and torpedo protection. The key selling point is the 458mm gun’s ability to overmatch 32mm of armor regardless of angling, making it the fourth battleship with 32mm overmatch capability, after Yamato, Musashi, and Yashima ( maybe not this one ) As an ending note, I would like to extend thanks to LittleWhiteMouse for inspiring me to write this, as well as Flambass, Flamu, Jingles, Yuro, and all the others that keep posting their content ( don’t worry Denarmo, I did’nt forget you), for keeping my spirits up in these dark times of Russian bias, the PR fiasco, and many other things that threatened the integrity of the game. You guys genuinely helped a bunch with that, and even made me a better player at the same time ( a lot of the tactics that I make use of are adopted from Flambass and Flamu’s tactics and techniques (And Yuro and Jingles give me a good laugh as well)) Welp, that’s all I got for today. P.S, if anyone seeing this knows how to make 3D renders, could you send some, I will gladly repost this with the images, and place mentions down at the bottom, giving you credit for them. And that’s a wrap Shrayes_Bhagavatula
  6. CHAPTER 1: Luftwaffe attacks the the Russian Baltic Fleet Soviet side: 2 Oktober Revolution 2 Kirov 6 Gnevny 1 Minsk 1 Leningrad The Russians will move into the cove port before we start. The goal is to save at least one bb and one cruiser. There will be 3 full waves of german bomber attacks you will need to defend against. German side: 2-3 Graff zeppelins using Dive bombers to attack the fleet they will be representing the Luftwaffe. The germans will need to sink at least 1 cruiser and 2 BBs. Map: big race CHAPTER 2: Russian Baltic fleet attempts a breakout Soviet side: 2 Oktober Revolution 2 Kirov 6 Gnevny 1 Minsk 1 Leningrad German side: 1 Tirpitz 1 Graf Spee 1 Nürnberg 1 Königsberg 3 Z-23 3 T-22 as torpedo boats-they would be limited to front gun and torps only and if we have enough people. If people want to play the bait role and there is enough people we can add a Karlsruhe and another Nürnberg as the bait squad. -[MIA-P] thegamefilmguruman Goal is for the Soviet side is to get as many ships to the other side of the map (Sweden) alive as possible, with special emphasis on the 2 Gangut class battleships and Kirovs. The German side’s goal is to sink the 2 Ganguts and Kirovs, and the extra DDs are bonus points. We are going to see how this goes with AP only the first go around then go from there. post in the comments if you are interested We will try this on this next coming Friday on Dec 6th 12/6/19. 8:00PM-10:30PM US Eastern standard time , 7:00-9:30 PM US CENTRAL TIME, 6:00-8:30 PM US MOUNTAIN TIME, 5:00-7:30 PM US PACIFIC TIME , 10:00AM -12:30 PM in Sydney Australia 8:00 AM - 10:30 AM in Perth Australia. if anyone is interested in helping to make new events or suggestions feel free to join the workshop discord https://discord.gg/ygjyP2G the event for this will be in the same discord for voice. https://docs.google.com/document/d/12jAZ81RpCzVTBh1795BQ_W79Qg8WCSwHTO1U3er9VyM/edit?usp=sharing dseehafer “Throughout the entirety of WWII Germany sent several fleets out for several reasons, on several occasions fleets of varying sizes were sent out to hunt convoys, Scharnhorst and Tirpitz were once part of an invasion fleet against the Island of Spitzbergen, and several fleets sailed to lay mine-fields, but only once was a large German fleet sent out with the express purpose of engaging another enemy fleet in combat. Which fleet was the German fleet to do battle with? The French? The British? No sir, it was the Russians! In September 1941 German army and air forces launched their initial assault on the port city of Leningrad where the Russian Baltic Fleet was stationed. The Germans feared that the Russian Baltic fleet might attempt to make a break for it and escape capture or destruction. The German battleship Tirpitz had only just completed her working up trials and had just been declared ready for combat when, on the 23rd of September, she received orders to sail from Swinemunde to join up with the newly formed Baltenflotte as its flagship. The German fleet sailed North-East to Foglofjord, arriving at 14:05 on the 24th, where they anchored and waited for the expected breakout of the Soviet Baltic Fleet. The Soviets never set sail, their fleet had been badly damaged the day before by German air raids while anchored in Kronstadt which saw their battleship Marat sunk. On the 25th it became clear that the Soviet fleet was in no condition to attempt a breakout and the German Baltenflotte was disbanded. Still, It begs the question... What if the air attacks failed? What if the Russian Baltic fleet attempted a breakout? What if these two battle fleets engaged? The resulting clash would have been the largest battle between two battleship fleets of the war in Northern waters! What do you think would have happened?” -dseehafer The German Baltenflotte at sea Major Members of the Soviet Baltic Fleet Marat sunk by German bombers Original post by dseehafer https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/152780-the-only-time-the-kriegsmarine-sent-a-fleet-to-do-battle-with-another-fleet/
  7. This is going to be a bit of a historical write-up on ZG-3 “Hermes”, her background, her service and a few pictures for those that prefer something for the eye. Why that ex-Greek destroyer? Because she is in her form a unique ship. Germany only operated one destroyer in the Mediterranean Sea (and a good number of torpedoboats, although the line between DD and TB for the Germans was purely a question of what staff was on board, hence why the then ex-Italian Soldati-class were considered TBs), and it was one of the few Greek ships to fall into Axis hands. During her career she was without doubt the largest Kriegsmarine-operated warship in the Mediterranean, and one of the most active destroyers that Germany had during the entire war. Being only one and being deployed in a theatre that in the mainstream-view on history kind of ignored, she has been dropped under the table. An unfortunate fate, especially given her short but still busy life. Background The Greek Navy at the outbreak of WW2 was a mostly outdated Navy, which starting with the destroyers was to be modernized. Borrowing design elements from the British H-class destroyers, yet carrying German main weaponry and Dutch fire control equipment, she was the nameship of the most powerful class of Greek destroyers. The standard displacement was 1,350t which would go up 1,890t when fully loaded, and her 34,000shp machinery would permit a speed of up to 36kn. Four German 128mm (identical to those found on German destroyers), two quadruple 533mm torpedo launchers of British origin supplemented the armament, with four 37mm guns in single mounts and ASW being the final touch. Entering service on February 15th 1939 under the name Vasilevs Georgios I., she was damaged at her aft two years later by German dive bombers, and while being in a floating drydock to get repaired the entire drydock was sunk on April 20th 1941. Following the surrender of Greece the sunken ship, contrary to the German-Italian agreement which said that all captured ships would become Italian property, was integrated into the Kriegsmarine. Many repairs being necessary she was raised and repaired by workers of the Germania-yard. Those repairs, often being improvised in their nature, led to a few changes in her characteristics. The displacement rose to 1,414t standard and 2,088t full, which alongside the problems arising from previous bomb damage to the aft resulted in a lowered maximum speed of 32kn. The torpedo armament was modified to fit German torpedoes, whereas the artillery due to the German origin required no changes. Four 20mm guns were added for additional anti-air defense and throughout her service the older 37mm cannons, which proved unsatisfactory, were replaced by guns of the same caliber taken from Uboats. What was liked was her seakeeping, she was noted to be very smooth in her movements and having excellent turning capabilities, although when sailing against the waves she would take on a lot of water. She was recommissioned under the designation ZG-3 (which is short for Zerstörer Griechenland 3, Greek destroyer 3, with the 3 indicating that she was the third captured destroyer under the German flag) on March 3rd 1942. Under the German flag While the ship was commissioned in March, it took until June before she was deemed ready for combat. Although to spoil that part, there is no indication that she ever fired her main guns in anger. Interestingly enough she was at first called into service only as ZG-3, and only on August 22nd 1942 was she officially given the name Hermes. Considering how the Kriegsmarine stopped naming their destroyers with the outbreak of the war, this is a very unique event and definitely worth a mention. Hermes was deployed as a vessel for various tasks, or as the German saying goes as a “girl for everything”, and until the end of April 1943 she would be deployed over 50 times, escorting in total 74 merchant ships, eight troop transports and eleven other crafts such as netlayers and repair ships. Despite being alone in terms of nationality she was rarely alone on the water, during most of her trips she was accompanied by Italian destroyers, torpedoboats and occasionally by subchasers. Her only chance to see surface action was when Italian cruisers and destroyers were prepared for an expected movement of British reinforcements targeting Egypt. However, her order for assisting the Italians was recalled shortly before the operation began. Not facing surface ships did not exclude her from engaging submarines during her voyages, which happened twice during Hermes’ career. On November 16th 1942 Hermes spotted the Greek submarine Triton, and the assisting subchaser UJ2102 moved in for the kill. A similar fate struck HMS Splendid on April 21st 1943, although this time Hermes operated alone and had to sink the British submarine by herself. A more positive experience was granted to the German Uboats U-83 and U-97, who due to damage and the consequential inability to dive required assistance. Hermes escorted both of them back to port, former on August 18th 1942, latter on August 5th of the same year. As it was the case for many smaller German ships, Hermes would also be used for mine warfare. No less than three mine operations marked her career. Having plenty of experience escorting troop transports, she would eventually be used as a transport herself to quickly deliver troops and ordnance to Tunis. During her second run on April 30th 1943 air attacks first sank the accompanying Italian destroyer and then turned their attention to the now alone ship. Near misses resulted in the loss of lubrication pumps, and her engines were forced to full stop as the shafts ground against the hose without grease in between. Surviving the attack, a tugboat pulled her towards her destination Tunis where work was started to restore the combat readiness. However, the collapsing front at Tunis meant that survival would not be possible and she would be blown up by her own crew at the harbor entrance as a blockship. This marked the end of ZG-3 Hermes, during her 431 day long career as the only German destroyer on the Mediterranean she would be outside of a port for 124 days. Not much is known about her conduct and the impressions she left on those that had the pleasure of meeting her, but it is said that the crews of the merchants held a high opinion on Hermes and her crew for the dedication they showed even if the escorting would go without notable events. Her service, while not being as remarkable as that of the legends such as Johnston or Hatsuzuki, demonstrated how monotone yet crucial the role of a destroyer can be. A role that in Germany was rarely granted to destroyers. Picture section Blueprint-like drawings of Hermes in decent quality are difficult to find. This is the best one I could dig up, although it is not showing the added 20mm weaponry and is likely showing her in her pre-captured shape. A front view from her deck towards the superstructure. Interesting to note are the aerial recognition stripes on her deck (or called candy cane camo) which are typical features of Italian ships. Given how Hermes spent most of her time alongside Italian ships, wearing their recognition marks to avoid getting bombed by Allied forces a la Leberecht Maass was a reasonable thing to do. Hermes during her trials in 1942. Note the empty AA platform, although around the rear superstructure you can see a 20mm gun. While only displaying a relatively small portion of the ship, this shot shows the typical German 128mm mounts and the 20mm gun mounted at the tip of her bow. Various pictures of Hermes. She is wearing a similar camouflage to the Italian destroyers and torpedoboats. Afterword Playing this game just like most of you do, the question “Would she fit in-game?” deserves a quick answer. And the answer is yes. Her specs would fit perfectly at T5 if you kept the 32kn speed, T6 if you decided to let her run around with permanently overloaded engines. T-22’s sad state would be good enough of a justification to do a swift replace, or if WG wants to make Hermes a T5 premium (which would be better than T-22 in basically every way). Hope you enjoyed this short overview over Germany's only destroyer in the Mediterranean Sea, if you got questions, feel free to ask. Cheers~ References "Die deutschen Zerstörer 1935-1945" written by Gerhard Koop and Klaus-Peter Schmolke "Z-Vor! Internationale Entwicklung und Kriegseinsätze von Zerstörern und Torpedobooten 1940-1945", written by Harald Fock "Marine Arsenal Band 46 – Beute-Zerstörer und Torpedoboote der Kriegsmarine", written by Dr. Z. Freivogel
  8. Hello! I thought this would be an interesting question. If it was already asked already, feel free to close the thread. A big factor concerning the Second World War was the Marine Nationale. Aside from a few skirmishes and battles here and there, they were mostly a non-factor in the entire conflict, neither supporting the Allies or Axis in large offensives. Nevertheless, they could've been a big tipping point prior to the massive scuttling in Toulon due to their relatively big numbers and good technology. While we can conclude that a full-on Allied Marine Nationale would've helped end the war faster, at least on the high seas, what about a fully loyal Axis Marine Nationale? What I mean is a Marine Nationale that is fully committed to the Axis cause. While that would definitely not work from a historical and political perspective, I'm mostly looking at this from a military perspective, so that is ignoring politics overall. While I'm also aware that the French had naval assets in the Pacific as well, I recall that they were very limited, so they probably wouldn't have too much of an effect on the war there. That is why I'm focusing on the Atlantic and Mediterranean theaters since the French Navy was very big in those sectors. XX For this question, I was either thinking around the time of France's formal surrender, which led to the creation of the Vichy French regime. Ignoring De Gaulle and the French French movement, lets just say that they have no naval assets and the French navy is mostly 100% fine with formally helping the Axis. If the Marine Nationale joined the Axis with French personnel and material, how would've that affected the British Royal Navy in terms of planning and logistics, especially if the French were working alongside the German and Italian navies in their operations? How would've that affected American planning when the United States Navy inevitably join the war effort after Pearl Harbor since they did have units in the Atlantic? Could the Axis overpower the Allies in Europe with the Marine Nationale on their side? If the war is won by the Allies, what do you think would be the fate of the Marine Nationale? After all, the Axis navies post-war were dissolved and their more important units were split up among the winners...with some small exceptions (i.e. the Andrea Doria-class battleships staying with Italy).
  9. LL_JuneBug

    M class Kruezer Gemany1938

    I have 3D modeled the M class light cruiser and 2d mapped it some years back for the book I published and donated the illustrations to Wikipedia. I was bummed a little bit that they haven't opted to put them into World of Warships. The Yorck is somewhat close, but it's not the same ship. Here is a 2d illustration that I made to use on Wikipedia, and for my book. I am working on making it more realistic and more detailed. here I started positioning the guns over the line drawings of the M class. on the bottom is the model of the Yorck. I outlined the guns in orange so view the model better. I made the model parts invisible with the outline to show better the positioning. The M class had a narrower hull and shallower draught. A fore projective angle. I am also modeling USS Nevada1943, and Andrea Doria from Giulio Casars hull and guns.
  10. So, one of the problems that Germany had at the end of the 1930's was that their Navy had 6 light cruisers and other than the last 2 being barley adequate to count as any kind of a serious sea going combat ship, it meant that they basically had 2 ships that they could use as light cruisers to accompany any larger capitol ships. Now mind you this was in the years that Admiral Reader and Hitler was making their Christmas wish list. You know 6 to 10 new Battleships, 6 new M class light cruisers, 12 new P class armored cruisers, 4 aircraft carriers, 24 destroyers, ext. LOL, If Germany could have built even half of that in 6 years with the Idea that they were going to start stuff in 1944 to 46, you know that Briton and France would have craped their pants and be building ships in reply. Then the Italians, Japan, America would have been hitting their yards with new ships. It might have not went on the scale of what the 1890 to 1910 arms race was, but it would have been a mini arms race. It might have made WW2 more interesting though if Germany did actually start the war with at least 4 to 6 Battleships, and somewhat of a larger fleet even though the British empire and France would have enlarged theirs also. Plus I dont know if the aircraft tech would have advanced at the same rate. I think a lot of things wouldn't have been as advanced until war caused it to have to be figured out. Anyway one of the idea's that German Ship Designers considered albeit not very seriously was to take the hull for Seydlitz and finish her into a Hipper class heavy configuration, except instead of mounting 8 - 203mm (8"guns), they proposed to mount 12 - 150mm (5.9" guns) in four triple super firing turrets. This would have solved the design issues of the M class cruisers completely. They would have been way ahead in the thinking of the Americans that made Cleveland's and Baltimore's from the same hulls. With a Hipper hull and the slightly lighter 15cm triple turrets, they could have carried much more fuel, supplies and ammunition for the main battery. they could mount extra AA guns, (although in 1938 no one realized, or had a lot of fear of planes yet). They would have had more range than the M class cruisers and would have been better protected, unless they thinned the armor belt to save weight. Either option would have gave them a far superior, but more expensive ship. They already had built 3 of these ships complete and were close to finishing the 2 last ones as heavy cruisers. They were dragging their feet on Seydlitz though because it was promised to the Russians under the non aggression pact that Daddy Hitler and Uncle Joe had with each other. None the less though lets say the Reader convinces Hitler that they can build more heavy cruisers later and that he would like to convert Lutzow to a medium/large light cruiser if you will and that it would be advantages to replace the K class with them or to augment future battlegroups. Hitler is in a good mood for a change and because at the time he doesn't foresee any serious strife in the near future he says ( If you think this is a good idea Admiral then it is ok to proceed. Admiral Raeder gets Goring drunk and gets him to divert a little of the Luftwaffe's money his way, along with slightly prolonging the M class cruisers construction. He gets a hold on like 4 submarines which totally pisses off Doughnuts, er (Doenitz). Dont worry he will get over it. So the next letter of the alphabet in line for light cruiser design is S, because the M,N,O, and P are scheduled, with Q, and R already selected. The Germans didn't always do this either but they were in a slight habit of naming the first, and or all ships of a letter class. For example the 3 K class were all K town names. L was Leipzig, but the second L class was Nuremberg, so hit and miss on that however the first M class cruiser was most likely to be Munich. So S. There are several towns with S. Admiral Reader had traveled through the small town of Schwanewede and was taken to the local people and countryside view there. so this name was selected for the first of the class. (note that the last sentence here is pure fabrication on my part for the story. I just wanted to establish a plausible story to establish a possible name for a fictitious ship.) So I present to you Der Kriegsmarine Shiffe: Schwanewede. Schwanewede crest The first ship of the class built with the hull and machinery of the 4th Hipper Class. This would make her resistant to 203mm shells. Launched in mid 1939. Germany classified her as a Light Cruiser but the English press wrote editorials that claimed that this ship was truly more of an overpowered light cruiser, and or an under gunned Heavy Cruiser. The French press claimed that Germany invented the Medium Cruiser, and should make their minds up. Here the guns and torpedo tubes are outlined in Orange and the front AA 37 single in Yellow. Here the same outline as seen from the top down view.
  11. Hello! I thought this was an interesting question to pose to the community. As you guys know, the scuttling of the German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow was a great event in the waning hours of the First World War that eliminated a lot of warships. These ranged from little destroyers to grand battleships. For historical conjecture (I doubt this would've happened in real life), let's say that the Germans was allowed to maintain the ships that were heading to Scapa Flow in a disarmed state. Let's also say that the Nazi Party rises like it did in our timeline, but their new Kriegsmarine is bolstered by all of this old German equipment. If you were a German admiral looking at this fleet, what would you do with the ships? Would you scrap them all to make room for more advanced designs or would you upgrade them to help bolster the surface fleet? Also, how would keeping this fleet have affected German naval development during the Second World War? Here is a link to all the ships that were sunk at Scapa Flow during the scuttling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_in_Scapa_Flow#In_captivity Thanks!
  12. I was just reading the local rag today when I stumbled across a nice history piece about one of the survivors of the sinking of the Kriegsmarine battleship Scharnhorst. I guess only 36 sailors survived of the 1968 man crew aboard the Scharnhorst and one of them has some history in my local area. Interesting story I found and it lead me to read up on this battleship and the battle it was sunk in. Thought I'd share it... German battleship Scharnhorst