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  1. The following is a review of both Agir & Siegfried, the tier IX German large cruisers. These ships have been provided to me by Wargaming at no cost to me (though I do have to unlock Siegfried again). To the best of my knowledge, the statistics discussed in this review are accurate as of patch 0.9.5. Please be aware that their performance may change in the future. Whoo, double-header! Wait, does this count as reviews #150 and #151? Bah, I'll figure that part out later. Welcome to my mistake! There is a lot of similarities between the two O-class sisters, but there are some marked differences too -- not the least of which is their actual game play. I've tried to separate things out to make things more readable but it's kind of a mess with all the back and forth going on. I'm worried that I've focused too hard on one ship over the other. Oh well, I committed to this folly and I'm going to ride it out to the very end! Let's begin! Agir Summary: A tier IX Odin in cruiser-form with improved main battery guns, but she has worse protection and secondaries. Siegfried Summary: A tier IX Gneisenau in cruiser-form with better guns, secondaries, torpedoes, AA power, agility and concealment. She is squishier than the tier VII battleship though. Difference Summary: Siegfried and Agir share the same protection scheme agility and concealment. However their weapons differ. Siegfried's has more powerful 380mm guns, is more accurate, has fewer but (much) longer-ranged secondaries. Agir has 305mm guns and an extra two-pairs of short-ranged secondaries and better torpedo arcs. In addition, Siegfried gets more consumables. Because reasons. SHARED PROS Strong citadel protection for a cruiser with a 190mm belt backed by an 80mm turtleback and 45mm to 60mm citadel wall. Good structural armour protection with 27mm thick extremities, 90mm thick upper hull and 30mm thick deck. Phenomenal anti-torpedo protection for a cruiser with a 37% damage reduction. Hell, most battleships would love to have this level of defense. Long ranged main battery guns (18.5km for Agir, 20.64km for Siegfried). Excellent main battery HE penetration for both ships. Secondaries have 32mm of penetration, making them capable of directly damaging the extremities of even tier VIII+ battleships. Good anti-aircraft firepower. Access to the improved German cruiser Hydroacoustic Search consumable with it's increased detection ranges of 4km for torpedoes and 6km for ships. SHARED CONS Turtleback isn't angled steeply enough to guarantee auto-ricochets, leaving their citadels potentially vulnerable. Wait, how is this a flaw, really? Most cruisers would give away their X-turret for this level of citadel defense. Agir and Siegfried's not-perfect turtleback be damned. Fires spank for a full 60s, and floods waterboard you for 40s. Kinky. Poor main battery HE DPM. Horrible main battery gun fire angles both forward and backward. Torpedoes are pathetically short-ranged at 6km. Chunktacular agility with handling for a cruiser that feels like sticking your hand in cottage cheese or duck puke. Large surface detection for a cruiser. SPECIFIC PROS Excellent AP penetration and overmatch ability with Siegfried's 380mm guns. Siegfried makes use of cruiser dispersion (!) with her battleship caliber guns. Siegfried has long range-secondaries with good fire arcs (better than Agir's for some reason). Agir has the same fire-setting ability as Azuma and Alaska with her main battery guns. SPECIFIC CONS Low AP DPM on Siegfried's guns (combined with that earlier low HE DPM). Siegfried is a bad firebug with a low fires-per-minute. Agir's main battery lacks AP penetration making it difficult to contest battleship armour except at ranges of less than 12km. Agir may have more secondaries but they too short ranged to be useful. Overview Skill Floor: Simple / CASUAL / Challenging / Difficult Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / High/ EXTREME Large cruisers tend to be pretty forgiving as far as cruiser game-play goes. They borrow a lot from battleships which are some of the easiest ships to play. For beginners, Siegfried and Agir provide these training wheels along with very forgiving gunnery dispersion. For veterans, imagine German battleships that actually hit whatever you aimed at. Yeah, scary, especially in Siegfried's case. Stack onto that good survivability, brawling, kiting, DD hunting with their hydro, using islands for ambushes / cover -- yeah, there's a lot of room for skill to affect game play. Let's do these next few sections out of order and focus first on where they're similar and then touch on where they're different. Defense Hit Points: 62,850 Min Bow & Deck Armour: 27mm extremities, 90mm upper hull & 30mm deck Maximum Citadel Protection: 190mm belt + 80mm turtleback + 45mm to 60mm citadel wall. Torpedo Damage Reduction: 37% How the hell are these things balanced? Siegfried and Roy are just a couple of key-features away from having a god-tier cruiser protection scheme. Let's go through the checklist: Anti-torpedo damage reduction in excess of 25% Citadel capable of repelling even large-caliber AP shells 27mm extremities or greater Upper hull in excess of 30mm Amidships deck in excess of 30mm Ice-breaker bow & stern So barring having a Furutaka-style deck and a Stalingrad ice-breaker, Siegfried and Agir have about the best defenses for cruisers that are available. But let's go into the details: Anti-Torpedo Protection Look, most cruisers don't have any torpedo damage reduction to speak of, never mind the "better-than-many-battleship" levels boasted by Siegfried and Agir. At present, they have the BEST fish-protection found on any cruiser in the game. Let's not forget that these two ships also have a German Hydroacoustic Search which further reduces the dangers presented by torpedoes. Short of these ships being more nimble (which they are decidedly not), you have the best defense you could ask when it comes to mitigating torpedo damage. Cruiser Turtlebacks & Internal Citadels Taken from GameModels3D.com with colours exaggerated to show the different layers of citadel protection on the O-class battlecruisers. This way you can clearly see the external 190mm belt in red (sloped at -1º to -21º), the 80mm turtleback in yellow (sloped 49º to 60º) and the citadel itself shown in blue (0º). Most AP shells have to contend with passing at least one auto-ricochet check to punch through her turtleback. The protection scheme of the O-class battlecruisers citadel protection closely resembles that of a German battleship. Their armour is optimized to protect the magazines and machine spaces in medium to close range encounters. However, it remains vulnerable to high-penetration, long-range fire. While these ships are not immune to citadel hits, they are about as well protected as you could hope for a cruiser to be. The effectiveness of their citadel protection varies depending upon where the ship is struck and the angle of incoming fire. Their lateral belt + turtleback protection covers the whole range from "impossible to citadel" to "difficult but not impossible" depending. Barring a shell moving at a perfect horizontal or slightly upward motion (possible due to normalization after penetrating the reverse-sloped belt), the O-class's turtleback isn't inclined enough to guarantee ricochets. Thus there's always a chance of a shell with sufficient penetration to punch into their magazines or machine spaces. The two layers of armour work in tandem with the near vertical sections of belt armour around the funnels being mated with the most steeply sloped turtleback and the more shallow angled turtleback around the magazines is paired with the most exaggerated reverse slope of the belt. The biggest danger to these ships when caught broadside are the (relatively) low velocity but high penetration shells of American battleships or the massive shells off Yamato, Musashi and Shikishima. At range, every battleship becomes more dangerous. Every time you get shot, you're rolling the dice and hoping that RNGeebus will be kind. So don't go offering up your broadside unless you're one pious momo. Their biggest citadel weakness is their enormous 27mm thick snouts which can be overmatched. Unlike other high-tier German cruisers, they have no 'ice-breaker', no extended waterline belt to help foil shots aimed at their squishy bits. For opponents that aware of this vulnerability, this area can be hit for days for easy big-damage. I'm not going to lie -- it can be frustrating to try and protect this weakness. If your opponents aren't playing ball, you're going to have a bad time. Make no mistake: Agir and Siegfried are not battleships -- they can't stand up to battleship levels of punishment. The O-class's 90mm upper hull is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it helps you resist HE shells and ricochet AP rounds when you're angled. On the flip side, it guarantees fusing every single AP shell it faces if the shell manages to penetrate, leading to Siegfried and Agir taking big damage. The recess into which Siegfried's hull-mounted torpedoes are set opens up a further shell-trap that can be exploited by your opponents. Be careful. Suck it, 381mm Guns You too, 127mm guns. Let's step away from dwelling on citadel hits and simply talk about resisting damage entirely. Given the glut of 381mm and smaller caliber guns throwing AP shells about at high-tiers these days, these ships can face-tank select targets with relative impunity. Furthermore, the 27mm threshold makes them immune to direct damage from 127mm HE shells even if they're using the Inertial Fuse for HE Shells skill, so that's pretty nice too. Their 90mm upper hull is again capable of being pretty troll when it comes to resisting damage -- both AP and HE shells, though you need to angle to resist the former. This opens the door for some interesting (if limited) brawling opportunities. The flip side is that this thicker armour all but guarantees everything (and I do mean everything) will have their AP shells fuse properly and deal chunktacular penetration damage. This can be as devastating as individual citadel hits. Overall, though, these ships are better at resisting citadel hits than they are direct damage. HE spam from cruisers is stupid-dangerous. Siegfriend and Agir's 30mm decks and 27mm extremities are big weak spots for HE to exploit. Lemme repeat myself: these are not German battleships -- they're not built to shrug off damage to the same level as those Deutsches-Stahl leviathans. You can lose HP in a hurry even if you never take a single citadel hit. So beware. Barring exceptions, most cruisers can queue up to 33% of citadel damage for repairs. Agir & Siegfried's large hit point pool gives them access to better heals, but this still falls behind the extra Repair Party charge enjoyed by Azuma and the portable` dry-docks of the British cruisers. Overall Feels The O-class sisters remind me a lot of tier VI and VII battleships -- tough but not invulnerable, with stupidly-big weak spots that are easy to exploit. Fire is a problem. Overmatch is a problem. HE spam is a problem. AP penetrating hits are a problem, but proper angling can help mitigate it. Citadel hits happen but they're uncommon and largely caused by your own mistakes, so that's easier to stomach. If you think of playing one of the O-class as the equivalent of bringing a tier VII battleship up into a tier IX match, you're not far off in terms of considering their durability. Their protection level is much better than that of the typical cruiser, but they fall well short of god-tier. VERDICT: Hella good, very rewarding and lots of fun. Agility Top Speed: 33.5 knots Turning Radius: 880m Rudder Shift Time: 14.0 seconds 4/4 Engine Speed Rate of Turn: 4.7º/s These aren't cruisers. Well, they are -- they conform to cruiser norms in terms of energy retention, for example. The rest of their agility parameters are very much those of a battleship. These aren't ships with which you can wiggle and dodge. Their bad fire angles on their guns, especially when kiting, makes this dangerous to attempt -- doubly so with their 27mm extremities being the literal back door into their citadel. They barely have more speed than most of the battleships they face, to say nothing of the cruisers, so kiting is made even harder. You have to pay close attention to the flow of battle and plan your moves accordingly. This largely limits their manoeuvres of defense to flashing their sides just enough to bait hits into their belt rather than their honkers and playing keep-away from the second line until it's time to brawl. It could be worse, I suppose. They could crawl like Roon does. Apparently Dmitri Donskoi's in-port stats are being fixed soon! VERDICT: One of the weaknesses of these ships. Refrigerator Base/Minimum Surface Detection: 15.12km / 11.88km Base/Minimum Air Detection Range: 10.74km/8.7km Detection Range When Firing in Smoke: 11.9km Hydroacoustic Search Ranges: 4km torpedo detection, 6km ship detection. If these were battleships, their Vision Control would be excellent, but they're not. They're cruisers, so their Vision Control kinda sucks. While they do bring the German cruiser Hydroacoustic Search to the table, they're not pairing it with great surface detection or good sprinting speed. This largely limits aggressive use of the consumable to misplays on your opponent's part. Otherwise, it's just there to keep you and your allies torpedo-safe. Like Azuma before them, these ships also lack the Surveillance Radar boasted by American & Soviet large cruisers. That consumable is nearly a must-have in team settings, so going without a huge strike against these ships. Overall, Siegfried feels this deficiency in concealment much less than Agir. Siegfried's guns are more comfortable at a distance and she has longer range to boot. Heck, Siegfried can almost stealth-fire her secondaries (one of these days, WG will screw up and I will have my stealth-firing secondary cruiser). This, in my opinion, makes her the easier and more powerful ship between the two when combined with everything else. VERDICT: This is another area where they perform poorly, but it's not unexpected. Alright, that's all of their similarities. Let's go over what makes them unique. Options Let's start with the pretty mild differences of their option optimization. Consumables Agir and Siegfried differ in their consumable load-outs with Siegfried having more options than Agir. I've highlighted the consumables that are Siegfried-only. Agir and Siegfried share the following consumables: Their Damage Control Party is standard for a cruiser with a 60s reset timer and 5s active period. It comes with unlimited charges. They have access to a German Cruiser's Hydroacoustic Search with a 4km torpedo detection range and a 6km ship detection range. Both start with 3 charges and have a 120s reset timer. Finally, they both share a Repair Party. This heals back 14% of the ship's health over 28s. 50% of penetration damage is queued up along with 33% of citadel damage and 100% of all other damage types. This starts with 3 charges and has an 80s reset timer. For Siegfried, I prefer a Hydroacoustic Search along with a Spotting Aircraft for my consumables of choice. SIEGFRIED ONLY CONSUMABLES Siegfried may swap its Hydroacoustic Search for Defensive AA Fire which comes with three charges and an 80s reset timer. Siegfried bumps her Repair Party over to the fourth slot and has the option of both catapult aircraft in her third slot. Her Spotting Aircraft provides the usual 20% bonus to range for 100s. It comes with 4 charges and a 240s reset timer. Alternatively, she can use a Catapult Fighter. The squadron is active for 60s with a 90s reset timer and comes with three charges. Upgrades There's a smart way to build for these ships but there's also the fun way. Being some of the first cruisers with capable secondaries, it's fun to build for them for a lark. In Siegfried's case, this may even be slightly competitive. Start with Main Armaments Modification 1. You have a choice in slot two. Fire damage is pretty dangerous for these ships so Damage Control System Modification 1 is a sound investment. Alternatively, you can go into the Armory and spend 17,000 for Hydroacoustic Search Modification 1. In slot three, Aiming System Modification 1 is optimal for both ships. Alternatively, you can grab Secondary Gun Modification 1 for the memes. This will pay off more for Siegfried but it can work for Agir too, especially in PVE modes. Again, with full-damage fires being a threat, Damage Control System Modification 2 is optimal for slot four but you can swap it out for Steering Gears Modification 1 if you prefer to take a more active hand in your defense. Concealment Expert is too good not to be the optimal choice in slot five. For those who like to live fast and dangerous, Steering Gears Modification 2 is an option, but keep in mind that these ships have bad fire angles for kiting so this isn't ideal. Finally, let there be no doubt that Main Battery Modification 3 is the best choice for slot six. Captain Skills There's a smart way to build for these ships and then there's the German secondary battleship build. The smart way borrows the entirety of the "fire resistant battleship" build. I agree, girls. So dull even if it is the "ideal build". You can swap out Priority Target for another tier 1 skill of your choice. Expert Loader is a good idea, but the usual standbys of Preventative Maintenance and Incoming Fire Alert are reasonable. German battleship build, recently recommended with my Odin review! Make sure you take Secondary Gun Modification 1 for this build and load up on Mike Yankee Soxisix signals. All of the cool kids are doing it. Camouflage Both ships have their default Type 10 Camouflage and you can purchase the Nordic Camouflage separately as a cosmetic swap. Both provide identical bonuses, so don't stress about missing out on possible economic gains by not spending more money. These are standard bonuses for tier IX premiums: -3% surface detection +4% increased dispersion of enemy shells. -20% to post-battle service costs. +100% to experience gains. So nothing too extreme there. Let's move onto their anti-aircraft firepower. Verdict: Siegfried has better options than Agir by a country mile, offering two distinct and viable play styles not only in PVE but PVP as well. Siegfried's default camo scheme, which is pretty sexy. Agir's default camo scheme is more grim. The Nordic camouflage looks good on Siegfried. But it looks better on Agir, in my opinion. Anti-Aircraft Defense Flak Bursts: 5 explosions (6 for Agir) for 1,540 damage per blast at 3.5km to 6km. Siegfried / Agir Long Ranged (up to 6.0km): 102 / 130 dps at 90% accuracy Siegfried / Agir Medium Ranged (up to 4.0km): 329 / 364 dps at 90% accuracy Siegfried / Agir Short Ranged (up to 2.0km): 147 / 119 dps at 85% accuracy Agir has better raw AA numbers than Siegfried. Siegfried has access to Defensive AA Fire (if she chooses to ditch Hydroacoustic Search). Both ships have "good" AA firepower, but this doesn't particularly matter. Individually, these ships have enough teeth on them to make dropping on them expensive in the long run. However, it would be a fool's mistake to think they're capable of fending off a determined CV by themselves. Apply the standard anti-CV tactics in order to keep safe. Blob-up and Just Dodge™. Otherwise, you're food. Long story short: Agir's AA is noticeably better (flirting with Alaska-levels) but Siegfried can take DFAA. I've ranked these in order of "effective AA DPS" -- meaning simply that I applied a formula (DPS *[range-1km]). This weights longer ranged AA mounts more than shorter ranged ones but it doesn't do so perfectly. This order only really gives an impression of ranking of personal AA defense, not overall effective values (such as providing support to an ally). At the end of the day, everything between Brindisi and Saint Louis are very, very close and this ranking doesn't really speak to in-game effectiveness. That's because none of this really matters. Sadly, CVs can still dunk on you no matter what and the idea that REALLY GOOD AA firepower could somehow prevent drops is a thing of the distant past. VERDICT: Disappointingly good. I say disappointing because good AA doesn't really mean anything unless the enemy CV is a total novice. Firepower Main Battery: Nine 305mm guns in 3x3 turrets (Agir) or six 380mm guns in 3x2 turrets (Siegfried). Both are setup in an A-B-X superfiring configuration. Secondary Battery: Eighteen 128mm guns in 9x2 turrets (Agir) and fourteen 128mm guns in 7x2 turrets (Siegfried). Torpedoes: Eight tubes in 2x4 launchers mounted on either side amidships. Let's start with the similarities between the two ships. Torpeedus Agir and Siegfried both have access to the same Steinbutt torpedoes (heh, butts). If you imagine Tirpitz's torpedoes but add an extra knot of speed, you're bang on the money. So they're stupid short ranged and kinda wimpy on a per-torpedo basis all things told. You're only ever going to get to use them in brawls or ambushes so keep that in mind. I can forgive their performance as both Agir and Siegfried feel like battleships, even if they are ostensibly cruisers. Their fish are super fun to use but you won't get to use them in every game. Still, those moments are always memorable and totally worth it. The big difference between the two ships in terms of their torpedoes are how they're mounted. Agir has them on deck giving her good forward firing arcs. Siegfried houses hers in the hull lower down, greatly reducing their field of fire (and opening up a potential shell trap besides). Agir has good torpedo arcs and terrible gun firing arcs. Siegfried has terrible torpedo arcs and less terrible (but still awful) gun firing arcs than Agir. Secondaries Siegfried has the better secondaries. This is despite Agir having more of them. Normally I wouldn't bother wasting more than a couple of sentences on cruiser secondaries, but these ships are special ... and not in that "Kiev also has a secondary!" kinda special. Siegfried's secondaries are so good, she's arguably the first cruiser in World of Warships where a full secondary build is competitive. While Siegfried doesn't have the broadside weight of a battleship, her secondaries are good enough with the combination of high penetration, good range and a decent rate of fire. Mouse's impression of the effectiveness of most cruiser secondaries. Agir should be in a similar state but she's not. Despite having the same penetration and an even better volume of fire grace of having an extra turret firing broadside, her arcs are slightly worse and she loses out on range. While you can still make this work in Co-Op battles, it's really not viable in a PVP environment -- not for the returns you get. Personally, I totally blame Flamu for this as he spilled the beans on how fun this is. Now your only way to get access to this game play is by grinding out the Research Bureau. BOOOO, Flamu! BOOOOO! You ruined everything! ♥ I stress it's this deficit of range that really hurts Agir and range remains the key factor that determines secondary-build viability in Random Battles. Agir's 5.3km base range can only be upgraded as far as 8.01km with a deep secondary build -- compare that to Siegfried's 11.49km and there's just too much of a gap. Perhaps more importantly, Siegfried's main battery gun performance isn't as hurt by spending her third upgrade slot to increase range as it is with Agir, owing to Siegfried's improved main battery gun dispersion (more on that later). You can make a secondary build on Agir work, but it's a pale shadow of the potential found on Siegfried. On the whole, it's exciting to see secondaries on cruisers being viable both to a lesser and greater degree on Agir and Siegfried respectively. I would have preferred to see this on a 203mm or 152mm armed cruiser rather than a near-perfect battleship analogue, but hey, it's progress. No, it doesn't make sense. Whatever logic was used to determine these fire angles, it's not consistent between the two vessels. Siegfried simply has better arcs on her secondaries. I have no idea why. Main Battery Guns These two ships couldn't be any more different when it comes to their main battery guns. Since I recently finished reviewing Odin, let's start with Agir's armament first because there's a lot of parallels there. Odin, Perfected If you read my review of Odin, the tier VIII German battleship, I wasn't very flattering when it came to my evaluation of her guns. Odin's 305mm guns struggle to put enough shells on target. Her battleship dispersion and her slower rate of fire just means that not enough shells stack to keep up with the damage she needs to put out. This might not be such a big issue if Odin struck like a hammer from on high, but she doesn't. While her 305mm guns are pretty good cruiser killers once you compare them to the other super cruisers, they're really lacking. Alaska & Stalingrad have improved auto-ricochet mechanics. Kronshtadt and Stalingrad have god-tier levels of AP penetration. Azuma and Yoshino have improved HE damage. So without any of these specialities, Odin was left struggling to deal damage when someone angles or plays a battleship that won't brawl with them. For comparison, here is Odin's main battery dispersion (in yellow on the left) using a standard dispersion test. This is 180 AP shells fired at 15km, locked onto a stationary Fuso bot. The Fuso lacks camouflage and Odin is using Aiming Systems Modification 1 to reduced her dispersion by 7%. Shots are coming in from right to left (Fuso is bow-tanking). Odin's 'good for a battleship' dispersion is alright, but it doesn't do the ship any favours given the rather wimpy punch of her shells. Agir's main battery gun dispersion (in pink on the right) following the same parameters as Odin's above. While Odin makes use of the American-British-German battleship dispersion area, Agir makes use of the Graf Spee (aka "Battlecruiser") dispersion. Agir inherits Odin's lackluster AP penetration and anemic HE issues. Boooo. However, her improved dispersion and faster rate of fire compensates somewhat for this disparity in performance. Her shells are "bad" but she fires enough of them and hits often enough to kinda-sorta offset her disastrous ammunition. Still, this isn't a ship in which you want to be actively trading fire with opponents. She's not a high DPM monster nor are her alpha strikes particularly impressive barring a cruiser derping monstrously. Fire opportunistically and avoid return damage as best you can. I struggle to call Agir's main battery firepower "good". It's alright -- I'd give it no more than that. There's nothing here really to get excited over. Siegfried, on the other hand... Gneisenau, Perfected Imagine if Gneisenau (or Tirpitz for that matter), hit with nearly every shell she fired. German 380mm guns are notorious for their inaccuracy so that might be a little difficult, but make the effort. Difficulties visualizing aside, take a cruiser and equip it with a small battery of battleship caliber weapons and make them stupid-accurate. That's Siegfried. That's her thing. It goes beyond that though. Siegfried takes Gneisenau's offensive abilities and improves upon them to such a degree that it's hard to believe Siegfried made it out of testing without significant nerfs. She boasts a slightly more powerful torpedo armament than Gneisenau. Her secondaries are longer ranged, using the same excellent 128mm L/61s with their improved penetration. And finally, Siegfried's main battery guns hit whatever you aim at -- something the tier VII and VIII German battleships could only dream of. It's this last part, it's her main battery guns, which puts her head and shoulders above Gneisenau despite the similarities of their armaments. Let's take a blast from the past to illustrate why Siegfried's accuracy is so jaw dropping. This is Bismarck's old dispersion (in yellow on the left), back when she was still using the French & Italian battleship patterns. Gneisenau and Tirpitz shared in this performance, with all three ships having 1.8 sigma. Things have improved slightly -- at 15km the width of their fall has reduced by 3 meters from 198m shown here (with ASM1 installed) to 195m with the new American battleship dispersion they're presently using. Yeah, you kinda got bamboozled if you thought the recent changes fixed anything. Siegfried (in blue on the right) uses cruiser dispersion. No, not battlecruiser -- actual cruiser dispersion. She has the same spread of shots as you'd find on Cleveland or Henri IV. She has their 2.05 sigma too unlike the 1.8 sigma you played with when using German battleships. Aim well and you can hit with everything. It's for this reason that Siegfried can get away with upgrading her secondaries rather than focusing on reducing her main battery dispersion -- it's baseline value is already good enough and ASM1 isn't changing much. Aim well and you can hit with EVERYTHING. Look, German 380mm L/52s aren't the most impressive of battleship weapons but they're certainly novel on a cruiser. Even with that said, landing six out of six battleship caliber shells of a given volley is enough to make anyone sit up and take notice regardless of the ship type. Like Jean Bart, Siegfried will tear you a new one if you're foolish enough to give her a broadside. While the French battleship will do it through volume of fire, Siegfried will do it with a single well placed shot. Even her awful HE performance is counteracted (somewhat) by this phenomenal accuracy she boasts. Siegfried almost feels Soviet, what with firing high-velocity shells and having the ability to snipe destroyers from a distance. It's that accuracy that solves a lot of Siegfried's woes -- not all of them, mind you, but a lot. Without landing citadel hits or steady penetrations, Siegfried will lose just about any damage race. So while her individual hits are pretty jaw dropping, it's a struggle to land enough of them to make a difference if you're not prioritizing targets properly. As good as Siegfried's guns are on paper, without a good head behind the helm, she can be pretty terrible. Unlike Agir's guns, which improve upon pretty forgettable weapons, Siegfried's are an improvement on some rather novel guns. If nothing else, Siegfried makes for some interesting gunnery. Imperfect Perfections As different as the guns are on the two ships, Siegfried and Agir share a couple of problems. Poor damage out put. Poor gun firing angles. As good as Siegfried and Agir's guns can be, they're fouled by angling. Granted, Agir is more vulnerable to this than Siegfried, but Siegfried performs even more poorly when it finally meets a target it can't overmatch. German HE performance is notoriously terrible and if these ships are forced to fire it for long, their numbers will tank. Agir's only saving grace in this regard is her fire setting ability which is ... well, it's not great but it's not at the appalling levels Siegfried suffers. In short, these ships struggle in head-up fights where they can't brawl and they can't use their AP shells reliably. If an enemy is aware of them and reacts accordingly, they can largely shut down their damage output outside of close-range knife fights. Agir's AP DPM is pretty darned respectable -- more-so if you consider she can make ready use of it more often than many other cruisers. Siegfried, by contrast, is way behind. But when you remember she has battleship caliber guns, capable of actually landing citadel hits reliably at a distance, this helps make up for it. However, she's always going to lag on damage output, so she needs to aim well and survive long to keep up. I made this graph the same scale as the AP DPM so you could compare them. The O-class cruisers really miss out on HE DPM -- Siegfried's is especially appalling. Landing six penetrating HE shells is only 8,712 damage -- and that's a best case scenario every 22.9 to 26s. While this will ruin any destroyer's day, other targets can shrug that off, especially when it halves due to saturation. While Agir's HE shell performance may be lacking, her fire setting is on par with Azuma and Alaska, which is respectable. Siegfried is again pretty embarrassing. As for firing angles, well... they're terrible, frankly. You have to expose a whole lot of broadside to fire forward and even more to fire rearward. Agir is especially bad for this which opens up these ships to taking a lot of damage they should otherwise be able to avoid. Furthermore, this makes both ships very poor choices for kiting. When engaging targets chasing them, their guns are doubly terrible. First, their overmatch potential is limited -- Agir moreso than Siegfried, but the latter has her problems too. Next, you're faced with the loser choice of either firing with a single turret or slowing yourself down when you open up your broadside to return fire with their A & B turrets. Agir is much worse for this than Siegfried -- as if Siegfried needed any more improvements over her sister. The only place where Agir's gun handling performs better is her faster turret traverse. Once you stack on Main Battery Modification 3, Siegfried's gun traverse gets so sluggish she can actively out-turn her turrets. I hate that. You'll want Expert Marksman if you can afford it, but Siegfried's deep secondary build might preclude you from having the points to pick it up. Finally, the biggest drawback of these ships is the need for time deal their damage. While you can hope for some cruiser to offer themselves up as an easy meal, their low damage output means that you're leaning on their survivability to last longer -- giving you more opportunities to make their weapons count. This can be from stacking fires in Agir, padding numbers with Siegfried's secondaries or finally getting a chance where you get to use their fish. Siegfried's numbers are especially volatile with her 380mm guns providing periods of both feast and famine. More time gives you more chances to finally find those opportunities. Agir Summary Agir corrects some of the problems found with Odin's armament but then takes on additional problems of poor fire angles and ineffective backup weaponry. Firepower wise, I'd rather have Alaska or Azuma. These ships all have similar AP penetration but Alaska has her improved autobounce angles and Azuma has way better HE shells. All three are comparable firebugs. Still, the torpedoes that Agir has are nice but I can't see myself enjoying her secondaries outside of co-op. So yeah, poor marks here. Siegfried Summary By contrast, Siegfried's main battery guns are exciting and so are her secondaries. Yeah, she has problems but they're not insurmountable and it's a worthwhile price to pay to have access to 380mm guns that hit with (almost) everything. Verdict: Siegfried's weapons are fun and unique. Agir is Odin Two: The Electric Boogaloo with better main battery guns but worse secondaries which is boring as all get out. Final Evaluation I have nothing but praise for Siegfried and I'm generally dismissive of Agir. The basis of these feels is pretty simple: Siegfried's game play is new and novel -- she's effectively a glass-cannon version of Gneisenau, greatly improving offense at the expense of durability. Agir, by contrast, is a more-different Odin but she loses out entirely on secondaries and adds durability issues. The other way of looking at Agir is to compare her to the front-running large cruiser at tier IX, Alaska. Comparing the two of them, Alaska is hands down better -- she has better artillery and better team utility. Agir only wins out in brawls. I wouldn't go so far to say that Siegfried is better than Alaska, but at least Siegfried offers a change in game play. Fun and novelty is a worth the price of optimization in my opinion. I'm not surprised Siegfried is the more compelling choice over Agir, not when she's locked behind the Research Bureau grind. Unlike Agir which seemed to be nerfed every step along the way of her development, Siegfried had only two significant changes made to her since her introduction in early 2019. First, her AA power got played around with. That shouldn't be unexpected given the volatility of the CV rework over that same time period but it is what it is. Second, her torpedoes dropped from an 8km range to a 6km range. Wargaming have, quite deliberately, preserved the attractive secondary-heavy game play that turned people's heads during Agir's development. Siegfried is a big ol' fat carrot on a stick hoping to lure you into regrinding a few tech tree lines. To me, Agir feels like a consolation prize -- a poor man's Siegfried, as it were. Though she is a lot more accessible and she's not terrible, she's a distant second to her sister ship and even further behind Alaska. Given the ongoing events, if people wanted Agir, I'd steer them to Odin instead. I can't speak for Siegfried being "worth it" for having to participate in the Research Bureau, but she is a good ship -- as I have said repeatedly, she's interesting if nothing else. It's up to you if that's worth your time investment. So yeah, that's the O-class. A fun ship locked behind a painful experience and a meh ship that will forever have you looking over your shoulder wondering what you could have had instead. Siegfried turned quite a few heads during play testing. Agir just turned stomachs with her constant nerfs. Conclusion Wargaming is still at it. Champagne has been finalized so there's another ship added onto the pile that needs reviewing. I need some time off after this one, so I don't anticipate having another review out before early July. Thank you very much for reading.
  2. LittleWhiteMouse

    Premium Ship Review #148 - Odin

    The following is a review of Odin, the tier VIII German battleship kindly provided to me by Wargaming. To the best of my knowledge, the statistics discussed in this article are accurate as of patch 0.9.4.1. Please be aware that her performance may change in the future. Quick Summary: Tirpitz-lite. Same great Tirpitz flavour with half the fat. I mean efficiency. Wait, that doesn't work. I really should mention the guns or agility. How about: Imagine if Bismarck and Graf Spee loved each other VERY much and.... Probably best I stop right there. Uh, okay, here we go: Imagine a tier VIII Scharnhorst that went to the gym and got super cut. She ends up with slightly improved punch but she tore a few muscles dead-lifting so she can't carry anymore. Bam. Nailed it. PROS Excellent citadel protection with turtle-back armour. Good armour layout -- especially for shrugging off HE shells, including a thick deck, ice-breaker extended waterline belt and strong upper hull protection. Heavy secondary battery with very long range, good rate of fire and excellent penetration values. Decent agility, especially for a high-tier German battleship. Good concealment for a tier VIII battleship (especially for a German one). She combines Bismarck's Hydroacoustic Search with Tirpitz's torpedoes. CONS Tiny hit point pool for a tier VIII battleship (which also reduces the amount she can heal). Poor anti torpedo protection with only a 22% damage reduction. Main battery guns are only 305mm in caliber causing all sorts of problems from poor HE performance, poor AP penetration and limited overmatching ability. Secondaries have wonky fire angles. Forward fire angles on her torpedoes are very limited. How to Acquire Her Before I get into the review proper, it's worth mentioning how you're (supposed to be) able to get this ship. Akin to Puerto Rico, Odin is part of a dockyard event. You complete missions to increase the rate of production of the ship itself with the option of spending money to accelerate construction. Unlike Puerto Rico which could technically (and rarely in practice) be earned for free, Odin has specifically been declared as requiring at least some expenditure of cash (or doubloons) to complete her -- something to the tune of a minimum of 3,500 doubloons. Now I mention all of this because the event hasn't gone live yet and, let's be honest, anything can and will change before the event launches. Don't come crying to me if you get burned from buying the pre-hype wholesale. I'm waiting to see how the event finally shapes up, what bugs are present and what the functional asking price for this ship is. Fairly warned be ye, says I. Overview Skill Floor: Simple / Casual / CHALLENGING / Difficult Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / HIGH/ Extreme Odin has a small hit point pool and crappy guns. You're putting that on a ship that ostensibly is made to brawl and handing that to new players? That's a recipe for disaster -- or at the very least, low damage totals if they manage to keep themselves alive or a quick trip back to port if they push too early. This isn't a ship for new players. For veterans, however, there's all sorts of fun shenanigans that can be accomplished with Odin, aside from the obvious brawling. Good ammunition choices, proper commander specialization, use and abuse of her agility and concealment and map knowledge will all go along way to improving your gains with this ship. The question is, though, is it worth the effort? Options Consumables Her Damage Control Party is standard for a German battleship with unlimited charges, a 15s active period and an 80s reset timer. Her Repair Party is also normal. This heals back up to 14% of her health over 28s and starts with four charges. This has an 80s reset timer as well. Convenient! In her third slot you have a choice between a Spotting Aircraft and a Catapult Fighter. The former starts with four charges, lasts 100s with a 240s reset timer. This increases her range by 20% (up to 22.9km) for it's duration. The latter has three charges to start, lasts 60s and has a 90s reset timer. She launches three fighters at a time. And finally, Odin borrows Bismarck's Hydroacoustic Search. This has three charges to start with a 100s active period. It detects torpedoes at 3.5km and ships at 5km. It has a 120s reset timer. Upgrades There's not a whole lot of variety here. Optimally, you're going to want to build for fire mitigation and improved main battery performance. To this end, take Damage Control Systems 1 & 2 and Aiming System Modification 1. But nuts to that. That's not fun. What you should do is take Hydroacoustic Search Modification 1, Secondary Battery Modification 1 and Steering Gears Modification 1 to soup-up Odin's performance for those brawls you want to get into. Optimal? No. Awesome? Hells yeah. I said "soup-up Odin's performance", Potage. Captain Skills So, there's a good argument to be made that Odin, like other German battleships, should simply default to the Standard Battleship Build™. That is to say: Priority Target at tier 1. You can swap this for Incoming Fire Alert, Expert Loader or Preventative Maintenance based on your preferences. Take Adrenaline Rush at tier 2. Next up comes Basics of Survivability at tier 3 to help mitigate fire damage. And cap it off with Fire Prevention at tier 4. This will maximize your fire resistance potential. After that, take what you will. Skills such as Concealment Expert, Superintendent, Expert Marksman and High Alert all being suitably hyped to round out your 19pts. Of course, this is loser-quitter talk and what you really should be doing is building for awesomeness: Both Superintendent and Basic Fire Training are equally awesome. I prefer the former, myself, and this is the build I've been using for Odin. Superintendent gives her a bit more survivability. Camouflage Odin has three available camouflage patterns, Type 10 Odin, Nordic and War Paint. They have identical statistics making them just cosmetic swaps between them. They provide the usual tier VIII bonuses: -3% surface detection +4% increased dispersion of enemy shells. -10% to post-battle service costs. +50% experience earned. I like Odin's base camo. When are the Germans going to get an alternate palette swap? ] I'm not a fan of Odin's War Paint camo. But I love her Nordic camo. Firepower Main Battery: Nine 305mm guns in 3x3 turrets in an A-B-X superfiring configuration. Secondary Battery: Six 150mm guns in 2x3 turrets mounted superfiring over B and X turrets and twelve 128mm guns in 6x2 turrets with three mounted per side. Torpedoes: Eight tubes in 2×4launchers in wing mounted just behind X-turret on the rear deck. The Woes of the Three Oh Fives Let's not mince words. Odin's main battery firepower is trash-tier. This isn't because her guns are "only" 305mm. If 305mm guns were automatically bad, we wouldn't be making the fuss that we do over ships like König Albert, Alaska and Stalingrad. They can be good, gun caliber be damned. It's all a matter of their individual performance parameters at a given tier. In Odin's case, these parameters suck moose-balls. Odin's main battery faults are numerous and I'll go over each. Hits on Target Odin dispersion test while equipped with ASM1. 180 AP shells fired at a Fuso-bot that had no camouflage. Shots were coming in from right to left (Fuso is bow-tanking). Owing to her higher shell velocity, Odin tends to overshoot and undershoot targets more often than American or British battleships despite using the same dispersion formula. This is bog-standard for German battleships. The first hurdle you'll experience with Odin's gunnery is getting enough hits. Now her dispersion isn't terrible -- for a tier VIII battleship it's not only normal, it's fairly decent with her 2.0 sigma value. However, a lack of any improvements to dispersion when stacked with the rest of Odin's woes means that you're not landing the number of hits needed to compensate for the other drawbacks. I could have just as easily griped about her rate of fire for not being better instead. Throughout most of her testing, she reload in 20 seconds instead of the current 23s which helped her put more shells on target through volume of fire (increasing from 23.5 rounds per minute to 27). Either one of these could have been massaged. The simple fact of the matter is that Odin doesn't generate the number of hits needed to be competitive with other tier VIII battleships once all of the other gunnery parameters are considered. AP Penetration & Overmatch Approximate penetration values of the high-tier German battleships. Odin doesn't have the punch necessary with AP rounds to contest battleship belt armour at ranges greater than 12km or so once you account for even slight angling. Belt armour of high-tier battleships easily flirts in excess of 300mm. Alright, so why does she need to get more hits? Well, her low AP penetration is perhaps the biggest problem with Odin's guns. She has similar problems to Scharnhorst in this regard but as a tier VIII ship, there are even fewer overmatch targets. As a German battleship, we can forgive her poor HE shell performance -- the expectation is that her AP shells should compensate for any drawbacks there. In some regards they do -- Odin's AP shell damage is more than sufficient. Even with her 305mm guns caliber and the woes with over matching targets, her AP shells deal almost as much damage as French 340mm weapons. Her overmatch caps out at 21mm -- largely limiting her to destroyers and tier VI and VII cruisers (and the occasional super-light cruiser across all tiers). You can forget about comfortably engaging battleships. She struggles to best battleship belt armour within nominal engagement ranges. It's only in brawls -- where her secondaries are already engaging targets -- when you can expect her to punch through belts without frequent shatters. There are ways around this, of course. You can aim higher and go for upper hull and superstructure hits. I do stress that with Odin's dispersion issues mentioned above that the sheer number of hits made won't equate to the same level of damage as her contemporaries. What's more, she still sees a lot of overpenetrations. She still has 0.033s fuse timers and she still needs 51mm of armour to fuse. So those soft sections of enemy battleships won't necessarily arm or slow down the shells enough to give meatier numbers. This all contributes to further reduces her damage output. It's hard to keep up when you can't land reliable penetrating AP shell hits. As you might expect for a faster-reloading battleship-caliber gun, Odin's AP DPM is decent despite the smaller gun caliber. I do stress here that this is potential damage -- it in no-way represents the actual gun performance, discounting factors such as dispersion, range, firing angles, ballistics, penetration, etc. These are just the theoretical maximums. HE Performance There's a lot of changes coming to the tier VIII meta shortly, though it remains to be seen how these five test ships will finalize. On topic: Odin's HE DPM is kinda terrible. I badmouthed Roma's HE DPM (though granted, that was coupled with her shoddy dispersion) and Odin's damage output is worse than that. No one should be surprised that Odin's HE performance is garbage. It's only her fast reload that creates any semblance of "close to acceptable" damage output and fire setting. Given her poor AP penetration and lack of overmatch, Odin has to reach for her HE shells in spite of this lackluster showing. It's not something you want to spam, mind you -- use them as often as you need to but no more than that. Stacking fires or hoping for big tallies of damage this way just won't happen with some severe hand-holding from RNGeebus (praise be!). It's the disparity between her HE and AP performance which makes her HE shells so unnattractive. An AP overpenetration is worth more than an HE saturated hit -- almost to a 2:1 ratio. Compare: This isn't a problem unique to Odin. The hope is that fires will off-set the damage disparity between the two shells. However, this depends not only upon the chance to actually set a blaze, but also the target that it is set upon. Lighting a destroyer or carrier on fire offers little in the way of damage return where as it's disproportionately more valuable when used against a battleship or large cruiser. Shell choice thus matters greatly and Odin should, whenever possible, lean upon her AP shells instead of her HE. Expert Loader is a very worthwhile skill for this reason -- you want to have the correct ammunition at the ready when opportunity presents itself. I think you'd be hard pressed to call any of the tier VIII battleships "good" fire starters. Nelson and King George V at tier VII really set the bar and Monarch (despite being Famous & Historical) falls short. Once you account for fire resistance and battleship accuracy, these values drop down to about 1/4 to 1/6th of their theoretical averages. Of course, RNGeebus being RNGeebus, lucky volleys can and will change everything (praise be!). All things said, Odin's fire setting isn't terrible but it's certainly not a strength. Overall Feels It's hard to have anything nice to say about these guns. The best I can manage is that some of their parameters are "okay", but there's nothing that stands out as fun or interesting. I honestly prefer Scharnhorst's 283mm guns to Odin's 305mm -- at least Scharnhorst's guns have fast traverse rates and good forward fire angles. Scharnhorst's matchmaking also means she can sometimes see super-squishy tier Vs. Let's talk about Odin's HE for a moment as it sort of encapsulates the issue here -- the improved penetration she gets might have been a plus had she the damage to back it up. But without it, her high HE penetration is just window dressing on more mediocrity. Like her improved rate of fire or meatier-than-they-should-be 305mm AP shells, it just doesn't matter. No other flaw of this ship is as damning as that of her main battery armament. This is where your decision on whether or not to invest in this ship should be made. Stacking reliable damage from Odin's main battery guns is frustrating, especially in the first half of battles where you're trading fire at long range. Her AP shells simply aren't good enough for this and her HE shells only stack damage slowly. Because of these deficiencies, players may be baited into pushing too soon in an effort to make use of her secondaries and torpedoes. This exacerbates the problem of her small hit point pool while simultaneously throwing away her advantages in concealment. In higher tiered games, this will get Odin sunk in a hurry -- players have to accept what little returns their guns can achieve, focusing primarily on softer targets until they can safely begin closing the distance and unleashing her other weapon systems. Odin's forward fire angles on her guns are good and crap on her torpedoes. Her rearward fire angles on her guns are crap and great on her torpedoes. Torpeedus Odin has torpedoes. Evaluating their effectiveness based on early play-testing is difficult. They're easily more potent during this stage as not everyone knows Odin is packing fish. So setting aside the successes during my games (including torpedoing a Kagero, lul), we can look at them more critically by comparing them to those found on Tirpitz. Still, lemme just humble-brag and say that I got to torpedo a LOT of people with Odin during play-testing and it never got old. There are two significant differences between the two ships when it come to their torpedo armaments: Their fire angles. Their survivability. Odin's fire angles on her launchers are pretty terrible. They're limited to launching at 39º off her bow. Rearwards, she's better, needing only a 22º angle off her stern to fire that way (which is amazing), giving her a total launching arc of 119º per side. Tirpitz, by contrast can launch 34º off her bow which is better (not great, but better) but she pays for it with more limited reward launch angles of 33º. This gives the OG German premium a 113º launch window. If you think I'm going to therefore justify Odin's launch angles as "better", you're mistaken. I would much rather have Tirpitiz's launchers based on their firing angles. These ships tend to use their torpedoes offensively rather than defensively, so forward firing angles matter a Hell of a lot more than rearward. So points to Tirpitz here. Odin has to swing herself out more than Tirpitz to squirt off a load which causes all sorts of problems from making her more likely to take damage on the return to simply (and embarrassingly) beaching herself. However, where Odin does get better marks is the survivability of her fish. Individually, the launchers on the two ships are just as squishy, it's merely their position upon the ship that counts here. Having Odin's torpedoes mounted on her stern puts them largely out of harm's way -- they're more likely to be available than Tirpitz's and much less likely to be sniped off. Odin's torpedoes are nice to have, short ranged though they are. They make her an absolute terror in a close-range brawl. Getting that close to her in a battleship is all but a death sentence. Her fish are more awkward to use than Tirpitz's but they're much less likely to get broken beforehand. There's few things as heartbreaking for one of these torpedo-armed battleships than having their torpedo-mounts destroyed when they finally (FINALLY!) get a chance to use them. Secondaries The final piece of Odin's firepower puzzle is her secondaries. I wanted to simply write praise for Odin's secondaries, boasting about their increased range, rate of fire and penetration over Tirpitz's guns, concluded that they were therefor better and been done with it. I was then told by my peers, in so many words, that this would be disingenuous and I should take the time to properly compare Odin's secondaries to the other AI-driven pew-pews. Tirpitz has words regarding my early praise of Odin's secondaries. So let's get into it. The first thing to consider is their raw damage potential. At tier VIII there are six ships which have "good" (or merely goodish) secondaries -- Massachusetts, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gascogne, Odin and Graf Zeppelin. I'm leaving out Amagi and her clones because, despite having improved accuracy, they are short ranged as all get out and not practical. All of these secondaries put out comparable damage when firing broadside, though the carrier is the hilarious front-runner. However, a more nuanced look changes things when you consider a practical application: There's a few things to keep in mind here. First, Graf Zeppelin and Massachusetts have (much) improved accuracy with their secondaries -- they generate far more hits than their competitors. Second, Inertial Fuse for HE Shell may be necessary to enable these ships to fully maximize their direct damage potential against select targets. Odin doesn't care about that last part, though, so points for that. Odin's secondary firing angles are a bit of a surprise. With all of her 128mm guns mounted flush on the deck, they have limited firing arcs. Her 150mm guns are interrupted by the ship's superstructure and are similarly limited. There's a 20º dead-zone on either side of Odin's prow where only her superfiring 150mm secondary can engage targets. Once you swing out, the majority of her secondaries will begin firing. She is not as well setup for kiting, though. Her butt is a mess though (ew!), with staggered fire angles. Mounted fore and aft, Odin's superfiring 150mm secondaries have limited fire arcs. There's only a small window where all five of her secondary mounts can be brought to bear on a target, and that obviously opens her up to return-fire. It's best just to stick with four on the attack and two when kiting. Odin's secondary fire arcs aren't comfortable. I don't know how much potential damage I've wasted merely because I was sitting bow-in with only my superfiring 150mm gun spitting off the occasional shot. Odin has to angle out at least 20º off her snoot to get a reasonable volume of fire going. This isn't much, but this 40º not-quite-deadzone forward is much more sizeable when you account for manoeuvre, navigation and dodging. This was especially frustrating when dealing with ships in smoke -- having to turn away to begin blasting them with secondaries. All of the other ships fire off with more than a single turret's worth with just a couple of degrees worth of allowance. Still, Odin does have more range than her contemporaries, right? It's not much, really. It's 200m base and 300m when the two ships are fully upgraded with all of the trimmings. Still, it's enough that Odin can almost (ALMOST!) stealth-fire her secondaries in open water, with her surface detection getting as low as 12.02km and her secondaries reaching out to 11.642km. That would have been hilarious had Wargaming accidentally let that happen. Oh well. This is the worst dispersion I got with Odin's secondaries. Most kills occurred within 120 rounds fired (about 40s), so I thought this one would make a more obvious indicator of the total area her shots could stray within. German secondaries are the current runner-up in the secondary effectiveness race. American secondaries, specifically those found on Massachusetts and her descendents, are the current gold-standard. That Massachusetts accomplishes this with only 21mm worth of penetration is testament to just how accurate those weapons are compared to (nearly) everyone else. Against soft skinned targets, it will take Odin twice as long to do comparable damage to Massachusetts. That's not an approximate either. I ran dozens of tests between them and Massachusetts lewds lolibotes two times faster than Odin. The marked difference between them and where Odin claws back a little deserved renown, is with her penetration. Even without Inertial Fuse for HE Shells, she's capable of damaging tier VIII+ battleship hulls with her secondaries without having to wait for RNGeebus to descend from on high (praise be) and gift her with a fire or to disperse one of her shells into their superstructure. This extends also to high-tier cruisers which Massachusetts can only directly damage if she spends the skill points on IFHE. The obvious question is: Are Odin's secondaries better than Massachusetts? Well, no. And that's the wrong question. Are they good enough is more apt. And yes, yes they are. All things told, I rate them better than Tirpitz's secondaries despite being more fussy to use. That extra penetration is just lovely and Tirpitz's 105mm, which form the bulk of her damage output, don't cut the mustard. Odin's secondaries are a reliable workhorse and definitely worth investing into to improve. This goes double given the woes of her main battery firepower. Summary Her secondaries are good. Her torpedoes are nice to have, but they're too short ranged to make regular use out of outside of PVE game modes (and one-on-one Ranked Battles, lul). But at the core, her main battery firepower is a huge let down and it severely compromises all other aspects of this ship. Her secondaries are almost great but they lack accuracy and fire arcs to contend with the current heavyweight champion. Her torpedoes are awkward to use but at least they don't break as often as Tirpitz's. Her main battery firepower is garbage. You can make it work, but you're not going to like it. VERDICT: Your butt belongs to RNGeebus. Praise be, you filthy sinners. Defense Hit Points: 52,800 Min Bow & Deck Armour: 32mm extremities, 45mm upper hull & 50mm deck Maximum Citadel Protection: 320mm belt + 105mm to 120mm turtleback + 45mm citadel wall. Torpedo Damage Reduction: 22% There's no getting around it: Odin's base hit point pool sucks when compared to the other tier VIII battleships. However, her theoretical effective health isn't that much lower than Lenin's -- a ship which is considered Tonka-tough™. Apparently there's more to battleship survivability than base hit point totals including such factors as armour, citadel protection, favoured engagement ranges and many more elements besides. Of course, dwelling upon the esoteric doesn't make for a very good sound bite, now does it? Hit Points We may as well start with the poop-storm that is her hit point total. Odin has less than 60,000 hit points. She has a lot less, in fact. She sits at 52,800hp. Let's put some averages up on the board, ignoring reskinned clones: Tier VIII Battleships (excluding Odin): 66,400hp Tier VII Battleships: 60,200hp Tier VI Battleships: 53,800hp (aww, bae-bote's average! ♥) Tier V Battleships: 46,300hp Odin has the hit point totals of a tier VI battleship -- and slightly lower than average for a tier VI battleship at that. Oof. Yes, this is bad. No, it's not the end of the world. There's more to ship survivability than just their hit points after all, though let me be clear, this does put her at a marked disadvantage. A lack of hit points has a couple of trickle-down effects. Her Repair Party's efficiency is tied to her base hit point total -- 14% of her health healed per charge up to a maximum of 16.8% with a flag. Fires and Flooding are also tied to her base hit point total, with the former doing 18% unmitigated and the latter doing 20% unmitigated). The damage done here can be healed back 100% with sufficient charges of her Repair Party. However, the flat damage done by bombs and shells hurts her more than higher-hit point total battleships. 10,000 HE damage done to Odin hurts more than 10,000 HE damage done to Nagato (18.9% of her health versus 15.4% for Nagato). Simply put, fires hurt all battleships equally but being shot does not -- the latter hurts lower health ships more. Thankfully, Odin is pretty well setup to resist shell damage in the first place. Armour & Citadel Protection A very German armour layout. Odin's protection scheme is analogous to (but distinct from) that of the Bismarck-class. This means ice-breaker bows, an extended waterline belt that covers her stern as well, thick upper hull protection and a reinforced deck amidships. Short of her icebreaker bow extending further up, this is about as good as you could ask for in terms tier VIII battleship protection. Her 45mm and 50mm hull sections along with her extended belt will foil many HE shells (pretty much anything that's not a German or British heavy cruiser or throwing battleship-caliber HE). This improved HE protection does make her more vulnerable to AP penetrating hits if they catch her broadside, so bear that in mind. When you look at her citadel defense, it's S-class -- as German as you can get. If you listen closely, you can hear the AP bombs drooling. Compiled from GameModels3D.com. This highlights Odin's turtleback and the two different armour values present. She has 120mm over her forward and rear magazines and 105mm over her machine spaces. This belt of steeply angled armour keeps her largely immune to AP shell citadel hits except from high-penetration shots at very (VERY) long ranges. Also from gamemodels3d.com. Odin has a "hidden" 60mm deck-plate linking the two sides of her icebreaker on both her bow and stern. Even if Yamato, Musashi or Shikishima overmatches her 32mm upper-extremities from range, this plate will prevent the shell from plunging into the 200mm transverse bulkhead of Odin's citadel. Bismarck and Tirpitz both lack this, having only a smaller (and easily overmatched) 20mm plate protecting this area. This isn't a game-changing bonus, but it's nice to have. Mitigation Odin's low hit point total eclipses her otherwise great survivability traits. These include her decent AA power, better-than-average agility and better than average concealment. All of these combined create a ship that honestly has a lot of tanking potential. Still, I shouldn't sugar coat it -- as well equipped as Odin is to control the engagement and shrug off attacks, her low hit point total is always going to be something you have to keep in mind. Exercising her mitigation tools is the best bet you have to giving Odin some carry potential. Use her Hydroacoustic Search to lower the amount of torpedo damage you take per game. Abuse her good concealment to go dark until there are juicier targets to shoot at. Invest in skills and signals to add efficiency to your consumables. And most of all, keep to the second line until it's time to push. It's a lot of work to keep Odin hale and whole. This is probably off-putting for a lot of people but I find it worth while and accessible. Keeping her healthy for the mid-to-late game allows her to pull off all sorts of shenanigans where her protection scheme and mitigation tools really allow her to flex. In the end, she is still a German battleship -- tough as old boots and built to brawl with the best of them. You just have to live long enough to get to that stage where the opportunities are more likely. I am convinced that her hit points are a bit of a red herring when it comes to the flaws of this ship. With a bit of know-how, the woes of her low hit point total can be easily mitigated. You can't say that about the performance of her 305mm guns, however, which are the real source of woe with this ship. The greatest criminal mastermind of our time. VERDICT: Solid armour, nigh-impervious citadel protection (outside of AP bombs) and good damage mitigation but she's still the Viribus Unitis of tier VIII. Agility Top Speed: 30 knots Turning Radius: 790m Rudder Shift Time: 14.1 seconds 4/4 Engine Speed Rate of Turn: 4.4º/s "It's not terrible." - Mouse, June 2020. Odin has better-than-average agility for a tier VIII battleship. However, she's no where close to being a top contender, lacking the straight-line speed (Richelieu, Gascogne), turning radius (So-Daks), rate of turn (Azur Lane's Littorio) or rudder shift time (Vanguard). She's just average or slightly better than average in a few key areas without being horrible where she's found lacking. It's worth mentioning that AL Littorio and Champagne are still works in progress and subject to change. VERDICT: It's not terrible. Anti-Aircraft Defense Flak Bursts: 5 explosions for 1,775 damage per blast at 3.5km to 6km. Long Ranged (up to 6.0km): 88dps at 75% accuracy Medium Ranged (up to 4.0km): 333dps at 75% accuracy Short Ranged (up to 2.0km): 109dps at 70% accuracy Screw it. I was going to make a pretty AA graphic but you can have my preliminary notes instead. I had a wth moment and ended up spending a couple of hours chasing down leads. APPARENTLY the Japanese Type 96 25mm AA gun is the most accurate mount out of any battleship AA gun. Look, I'm not the most savvy historionatrix -- scarcely better than the History Channel -- but even I know this is a facepalm. Also, Champagne and Borodino are still works in progress and subject to change. I'm not going to waste too much time here. Take a Catapult Fighter instead of a Spotting Aircraft consumable. If you've upgraded your secondaries, you'll have a bit more bite to your AA guns which should be enough to make a tier VI carrier cry and mildly annoy a tier VIII carrier enough to make them alternate aircraft types they hammer you with to mitigate losses. But don't kid yourself into thinking that this provides anywhere close to "good" AA firepower. She has marginally better defense than Bismarck but she still sits well behind ships like the So-Daks, North Carolina and Kii. VERDICT: Refrigerator Base/Minimum Surface Detection: 15.3km / 12.02km Base/Minimum Air Detection Range: 9.86km/7.99km Detection Range When Firing in Smoke: 11.9km Main Battery Firing Range: 19.09km / 22.87km with Spotting Aircraft active Hydroacoustic Search Ranges: 3.5km torpedoes, 5km ship detection. I'm about to heap a whole lot of cautionary praise on Odin's surface detection. Lemme state this fact before I get started: Odin's concealment is nothing special for a battleship; it's simply better than expected. High-tier German battleships are thunder-chunkers with choo-choo thighs. Odin isn't. This opens up the door to actually weaponizing her concealment as some other battleships can and German battleships typically can't. Clear? Cool. Vision control is, in my opinion, the ship's saving grace. Like Roma before her, having good concealment prevents Odin from being an unmitigated disaster of a ship (boy, has my opinion of that ship evolved over time). In particular, it softens the blow of Odin's smaller hit point pool, adding a bit of much needed survivability that she might otherwise lack. Playing up to this concealment advantage will keep this ship alive -- Odin belongs on the second line, playing more like a large cruiser than a true battleship, at least until the end game when she can finally choose to spend her hit points where it will actually matter -- in brawls and securing objectives. Of course, Odin's concealment advantages are easily undone. All it takes is a flanking destroyer or a determined aircraft carrier to undermine her stealth, lighting her up for the enemy team. At least in Randoms you can count on not being the first ship targeted if you're in the second line -- PUBies tend to shoot at whatever is closest rather than what's optimal, so again, I stress -- keep her in the second line, even if her damage output is going to be garbage for a while. Odin's vision control extends beyond playing peek-a-boo whenever she fires her guns from range. Having access to a Hydroacoustic Search is an underrated boon. It is primarily defensive, ostensibly keeping her safe from torpedo hits while it's active. However, I find it much more rewarding to use it offensively to sniff out ships behind cover even if opportunities to do so prove much more rare. This consumable does provide a welcome bit of supporting confidence to aggressively push when the time is right. Finally, like Roma before her, Odin is better equipped to flank and steal shots from an unseen quarter than some other battleships. On my wish list, including a kilometer less surface detection, would be a bit more speed to better take advantage of this ability, but it's good enough. Odin can make good use of islands on top of sneaking through open water to set up ambushes. Unlike her Italian counterpart, she's generally not doing it to put main-battery firepower pressure on the enemy, but rather to safely close and begin using her fish and secondaries. I honestly wish there was more to get excited over about this aspect of Odin. It's a panacea to her durability woes, but a single aircraft carrier will put a fly in that ointment. VERDICT: It's sad when arguably the best thing about the ship is a mediocre showing like this that band-aids other problems. Final Evaluation Odin or Tirpitz? I think that's the big question out there. If you have Tirpitz, why would you want Odin? If you don't have either, which one should you get if you had to choose between the two? Muh History aside, I prefer Odin but I don't think she's better. I admit some of this affection towards Odin is owing to her being new and my rather enjoyable bouts of play-testing. It was a challenge to play Odin well -- to preserve her hit points and then pounce upon the unsuspecting. This probably explains the success I had with Odin. She's so new that the population at large isn't aware of her torpedoes yet. Once they become common knowledge, players will learn to stay away as vehemently as they do from a charging Tirpitz. The shine will come off Odin's star soon enough leaving us with two very similar ships. Is Odin optimal? Hells no. Is Odin better than Tirpitz? Situationally yes. Situationally no. Tirpitz has better firepower, hands down. The overmatch of her 380mm guns is great. Tirpitz is arguably a better top-tier bully too where the deficiencies of her 105mm secondary penetration doesn't matter as much and she can make much more use of her overmatching ability. Odin is no slouch, she just does things a little differently -- playing hit and fade until it's time to stove someone's face in. Despite the deficit in hit points, Odin feels more survivable to me as a veteran player. I don't have to be a damage sponge. The catch, of course, is that her main battery guns suck. Dealing reliable damage outside of a brawl is difficult. And there will be matches where you don't get a chance to wade in and that will show in your results. Frustrations aside, for those who love brawling, it's those matches where you do finally get to sneak up and wade in, where you do get to put torpedoes up someone's nose or rip someone's citadel out at point blank range which makes all of the previous frustrations moot. Bonus points if you use Odin's concealment to set it up. As I mentioned, those games came frequently during play-testing and that's why I enjoyed this ship as much as I did. Was it because Odin is so sneaky or was it simply because people were ignorant of what Odin can do? I think it's both, to be honest. While I do imagine those opportunities will wane somewhat as people get wiser, those opportunities are so worth it. Overall, I think Tirpitz is more consistent, but there's room for Odin in my port. Conclusion Not bad -- a week's turn around time from when Odin's finalization was announced to getting this one out the door. I put a lot of extra work into this one and I hope the quality shows. Thank you to my Patrons on Patreon for their continued support and making these articles possible! ♥
  3. The original and best. Quick Summary: A Bismarck-class battleship that trades away Hydroacoustic Search and AA-power for deck mounted torpedoes. Cost: 12,500 doubloons Patch & Date Written: 0.6.4 to 0.6.12, April 19th, 2017 to October 27th, 2017 Closest in-Game Contemporary Bismarck, Tier 8 German Battleship Degree of Similarity: Clone / Sister-Ship / Related Class / Similar Role / Unique The differences between Bismarck and Tirpitz are distinct. While they share the same main and secondary gun battery performance, Tirpitz has access to two quad-torpedo launchers while Bismarck has Hydroacoustic Search. Bismarck has a tremendous advantage in AA power over her sister ship, while also enjoying marginal improvements in armour protection, speed, agility and aerial concealment. Finally, the position of two of their 105mm dual purpose secondaries differs slightly, with Tirpitz having better firing arcs. PROs: Excellent armour protection and nigh invulnerable to citadel hits from AP shells. Main battery has a fast, 26s reload and good gun handling characteristics with a traverse rate of 5º per second. High penetration HE shells, capable of besting 95mm of armour with a 34% fire chance per shell. Heavy secondary gun battery complement with excellent 7.5km base range and improved, 37mm penetration on her 150mm guns. Powerful torpedo armament, especially for a battleship. Fast at 30.5 knots. Awesome selection of premium camouflages for long-time veterans. CONs: Poor anti-torpedo defense. Inaccurate main battery guns with low DPM, poor HE shell damage and poor fire angles. 105mm secondaries cannot damage the hulls of tier VIII+ destroyers. Short 6km range on her torpedoes. Torpedo tubes are vulnerable and get disabled often. Weak AA power for a tier 8 Battleship and easily one-shot by AP Bomb armed carriers. Very large turning circle of 850m. Lacks Hydroacoustic Search found on high tier German Battleships It's been a long time since I last looked at Tirpitz. Heck, I've been working on this review for six months now. When patch 0.6.4 dropped and Tirpitz received a buff to its secondary gun range, I thought the timing was perfect to sit down and look at her again, especially as she seemed to be encroaching upon Bismarck's supremacy. Well, things got busy and the meta surrounding German Battleships took a huge shift. Enterprise's AP bombs were one such jolt. The Royal Navy Battleships shook things up again and it forced me to review what I had so far evaluated and elect to wait to see if things shifted further. Things appear stable now. The Hallowe'en 2017 event has introduced another (so awesome looking) camouflage pattern to Tirpitz, so I thought it best to get this one off my list while the getting was good. So here we go -- six months late but hopefully not a dollar short. My big concern is that the buffs from 0.6.4 have largely made Bismarck obsolete. Bismarck can boast a few advantages that she trades in exchange for Tirpitz's torpedoes -- the question is "did Wargaming go too far when they improved Tirpitz's secondaries?" Well, let's take a look. Lert will join me with his final thoughts on this venerable premium. The three camouflage patterns for Tirpitz. These have become available for players who have owned her for a long time and has greatly increased her value. The Tarnanstrich camouflage greatly increases the amount of free-experience Tirpitz can earn while Magnu-S provides a small (about 4,000) credit boost. Note that the Magnu-S Hallowe'en camouflage can only be seen if a player enables the filters in port. Options Tirpitz shows her age when it comes to her options. First, she does not have access to Hydroacoustic Search as other tier 8+ German Battleships do. Second, she has access to three different premium camouflages. Initially, she comes with the standard Type 10 camouflage. The second camouflage came grace of the Hunt the Graf Spee campaign over Christmas 2016 and into New Year's 2017. It has not been made available since. The third camouflage pattern became available Hallowe'en of 2017 and it's likely that this too will become a rare accessory. It remains to be seen if Wargaming will offer these options again in future events. Her consumables are standard, with her Damage Control Party having a 15s active period and a 120s/80s reset timer. Consumables: Damage Control Party Repair Party Spotter Aircraft or Float Plane Fighter Module Upgrades: Five slots, standard battleship options Premium Camouflage: There have been three Tirpitz camouflage types. When purchased, you receive the Tier 6+ Standard (Type 10). This provides 50% bonus experience gains, 3% reduction in surface detection and 4% reduction in enemy accuracy. Veterans with Tirpitz may have access to Tarnanstrich - Tirpitz. This is the equivalent of the Type 11 camouflage found on Anshan. It provides 100% bonus free experience in addition to the Type 10 camouflage buffs. For Hallowe'en of 2017, the camouflage Magnu-S - Tirpitz became available. This provides the same bonuses as the Type 10 above but includes a 10% reduction to repair costs. (A special thanks to SoliDeoGloria for their help with this). These bonuses are identical to the premium camouflage you can purchase for Bismarck for 4,000 doubloons. Remember to equip as many premium consumables as you can readily afford. In order of priority these should be Damage Control Party, then Repair Party and finally her Spotter Aircraft or Float Plane Fighter. Of the two options provided, the Spotter Aircraft is (generally) more useful. This not only provides additional range (which is of limited use), but it also allows you to better triangulate the necessary range needed to bulls-eye ships hiding in smoke screens by homing in on the origin of their tracers. Her Float Plane Fighter isn't an awful choice, however, and with the right skill build, can be very useful in spotting approaching torpedoes and even detecting enemy destroyers. For upgrades, take the following: In your first slot, Main Armaments Modification 1 is essential. Your torpedo tubes will get knocked out often and your guns are going to take a lot of abuse too. In your second slot, you have a choice. Aiming Systems Modification 1 is optimal. This increases the performance of your main battery, but it comes at a cost -- the maximum range and accuracy of your secondary gun systems. If you want to use a full secondary build, take Secondary Guns Modification 2. In your third slot, take Damage Control System Modification 1. In your fourth slot, you have a choice. Damage Control System Modification 2 is optimal. Fire damage is more prevalent than ever. This module will save you 1,871hp per fire that's allowed to burn itself out (2.7% of your HP). Alternatively, you can take Steering Gears Modification 2 to assist with agility, but on its own, it will not improve manoeuvrability much without help. And finally, in your final slot, take Concealment Modification 1. Versus Bismarck There are a few difference between the two sister ships. Bismarck gets access to the Hydroacoustic Search consumable. Veterans of Bismarck may also have access to up to four different permanent camouflage patterns, though their bonuses are all identical to the permanent camouflage Bismarck can purchase. Firepower Primary Battery: Eight 380m rifles in 4x2 turrets in an A-B-X-Y superfiring configuration. Secondary Battery: Sixteen 105mm rifles in 8x2 turrets, twelve 150mm rifles in 6x2 turrets. Torpedoes: Eight tubes in 2x4 launchers, one off each side behind the funnel. Torpedoes Tirpitz's torpedoes help make her the Best Brawling Battleship in World of Warships. This is a title she's held since her introduction in September of 2015 and she hasn't surrendered it to any contenders since. Tirpitz was the first battleship in World of Warships to be given a torpedo armament and it caused a lot of fuss back in the day. Since then, Mutsu, Kii and the Scharnhorst sisters have joined her, but this hasn't diminished her prestige. Tirpitz's torpedo armament is the heaviest among battleships. However, when the stats of her torpedoes are examined on paper, they seem hardly inspiring. With a range of a mere 6km and a hitting power that seems more akin to weapons found on tier V or VI vessels, they can appear deceptively lackluster. Tirpitz's torpedoes are a brawling weapon and in this regard, they can be viewed as the equivalent of dealing a citadel penetration with her main battery per individual torpedo strike. Being able to deliver up to four of these against any target (regardless of angle) is an enormous strength and makes Tirpitz an exceedingly dangerous opponent in close quarters. Even single hits can be near catastrophic with the threat of flooding stacking upon the fires lit by her secondaries. Their lack of range is their biggest weakness. It's so short that it's a rare game that a well played Tirpitz gets to use them at all. And I do stress this "well played" part. Pushing to brawling ranges too early will only isolate Tirpitz from her support and invites to get her focused down by enemy vessels. Many a novice Tirpitz player has brazenly charged ahead to try and make use of this trump card, only to frustrate themselves with getting sent back to port for their folly. There's a reason this ship has earned the moniker "Derpitz" -- this mistake is commonplace. Don't be one of those chowderheads that helps propagate this stereotype. Another flaw of Tirpitz's torpedo launchers is their fragility. They get damaged often -- disabled both temporarily and permanently. This stems from three inherent problems with her torpedo launchers. Their hit point total. Their lack of armour protection. The amount of fire Tirpitz takes. Tirpitz's torpedo launchers have a standard 1,200 hit points -- a value common to all torpedo launchers, as is their 25% chance of being temporarily disabled per damaging hit received. They are effectively unarmoured, making them exceedingly vulnerable to high explosive shells. Taking Main Armaments Modification 1 increases their hit points to 1,800 and reduces the chance of being critically damaged down to 20% per hit, which is better, but not great. It's only by stacking the captain skill, Preventative Maintenance, that you can get their critical hit chance down to a more manageable 14% per hit taken, but this won't save them from total destruction.The volume of fire Tirpitz takes in a typical match all but guarantees your torpedoes will be temporarily disabled at least once. It's heartbreaking to lose one of these mounts permanently. There are few things worse than finally securing a chance to use them in close quarters only to find them missing. The prevalence of Royal Navy battleship high explosive fire has only increased the likelihood of Tirpitz losing her torpedoes. If you find yourself coming under fire from a British battleship, you're very likely to have your torpedoes permanently stripped after receiving a volley or three. Provided Tirpitz can survive getting into a close quarters engagement (and with her torpedo armament intact), her torpedoes give her an excellent chance of clinching the win in any brawl, even against tier X battleships. Tirpitz's main battery penetration values courtesy of World of Warships Armada. Secondaries One of the most significant changes that came to Tirpitz has been the improvement of her secondary gun battery. Tirpitz now boasts one of the most fearsome secondary gun complements in the game, with phenomenal reach and volume of fire. No other ships in the game currently put out the same wall of fire as German Battleships can. The buff Tirpitz received increased her secondary gun battery range from 4.5km when she was initially released up to Bismarck's own 7.5km reach. Fully specialized, Tirpitz's guns may reach out to a range of 11.3km between modules, skills and consumables. This is insane. Like, seriously -- I get that Wargaming was trying to be consistent, but holy meatballs on a six inch sub, did she really need this buff!? The disruption effect of these secondaries is considerable -- it's like an aura of doom that gradually sucks the life out of enemy ships that stray too close to the German behemoth. Tirpitz is veritably surrounded by a dark cloud of death and destruction. The closer enemies get, the more deadly the storm of shell and fire, leaving opponent choking for air and desperate to get away. The better of the two guns are her twelve 150mm guns are mounted between six turrets. Four enjoy favourable forward firing angles. These guns have a slower rate of fire of eight rounds per minute stock (this can be increased to 9.36rpm between Basic Fire Training and the Mike Yankee Soxisix signal and bumped up further with Adrenaline Rush). However, they have a decent base fire chance of 8% per shell. More impressively, they have improved penetration values of 37mm (as opposed to 25mm as would be expected), allowing them to damage the extremities of any warship they should encounter. This makes it easy for Tirpitz to stack damage even against other high tier battleships at medium to close range encounters. Her sixteen 105mm guns form the backbone of her secondary armament and they have more mixed performance. They have an excellent rate of fire, being able to spit out a fearsome 17.91rpm per gun (increasing up to 20.95rpm with the skills and consumable mentioned before). Their fire chance is only modest at 5% but when coupled with their rate of fire, the chance to set blazes is better (pound for pound) than Tirpitz's 150mm guns provided you can land the hits. However, unlike the 150mm guns, Tirpitz's 105mm guns do not enjoy increased penetration values. This leaves them with a paltry 18mm of penetration which is utterly insufficient to damage the hulls of tier VIII+ destroyers. Short of landing shells upon a target vessel's superstructure in high tier matches, her 105mm secondaries are not going to be stacking direct damage. The solution may seem to be to reach for the skill Inertial Fuse for HE Shells to correct this, but this damages the fire chance of all of Tirpitz's weapon systems. Still, this would provide Tirpitz with the ability to ravage all destroyers and British cruisers within her matchmaking spread. One of the drawbacks of German HE shells, to which her secondaries are not immune, is their low damage per hit. Tirpitz will do no more than 561 damage per 150mm hit and a mere 396 damage at best per 105mm hit (compare this to the 726 damage from Warspite's 152mm HE and the 495 damage from her 102mm HE). It takes a long time for Tirpitz to stack damage with her secondaries. This damage will add up, but don't expect it to win matches by themselves. Like Tirpitz's torpedoes, rushing blindly forward to make use of these weapons will only get you killed. Support your team. Don't let yourself become isolated just because you want to subject your opponents to your poo-gas stink cloud of shelly-flamey doom. Overall, Tirpitz's secondaries are a powerful tool. They can provide an alarming level of supporting fire that can surprise and intimidate your opponents. However, they are not a wunderwaffe -- they will not win matches by themselves. It takes a significant investment to make them truly formidable, often at the cost of survival skills. Used correctly, her secondaries can help tip the balance in engagements and even in matches, but they are a support-weapon, not a primary weapon. Main Battery So, Tirpitz has great secondaries and powerful torpedoes -- but what about her main battery guns? I'm very tempted to say, 'What ABOUT her guns?' and leave it at that (what are you, greedy?), but they are worth examining. Tirpitz shares the same guns as Gneisenau and Bismarck. These are high velocity 380mm rifles that compete well with comparable 15" AP rifles found on any of the Royal Navy battleships. They have high shell velocity, and decent penetration power. They aren't without their problems, however. It may sound funny to say after reviewing her heavy torpedo and secondary batteries, but Tirpitz is under-armed. Let's start with her penetration power. While Tirpitz does enjoy better penetration than Monarch, all this means is that she doesn't have the worst penetration at tier VIII. The performance of her AP shells is best considered "sufficient" and no more than that. She sits well behind Kii and Amagi and even further behind Alabama, Massachussetts and North Carolina. Her HE shells do have better penetration than normal, sharing Monarch's ability to best 95mm of armour. However, unlike the British, German HE damage is anemic. In fact, the damage off both her AP shells and HE shells isn't great for her tier. They have decent fire chances, but you'd be a fool to reach for HE in this ship with any regularity. Accuracy wise, the news isn't good. Tirpitz has the least accurate guns at her tier. They're hit with a one-two punch of German battleship dispersion levels (which are the worst in the game) and 1.8 sigma. This is further compounded by the wide spacing of her guns not only on the ship (Tirpitz is enormous) but within the turrets themselves. The last piece of the puzzle is that players so often make things worse by not installing Aiming Systems Modification 1 in order to instead boost their aforementioned secondaries. Expect some serious misbehaving where gunnery is concerned. Her biggest weakness, however, is that Tirpitz has only eight 380mm guns. Though she boasts a faster reload time, this really hurts her outgoing damage potential. This is compounded when she's forced to angle against long range fire. Her guns all suffer from a 290º fire angle which isn't terrible, but it's not great either (we'd want 300º fire angles for 'great'). While Tirpitz is largely immune to citadel hits, she's not immune to taking massive 20,000 spikes of damage when an enemy battleship catches too much of her side. This disparity in guns really hurts in bow-tanking situations. The British and American battleships can trade fire back with six guns, you're often only left with four. So Tirpitz's main battery is meh. Sure, it handles great. Sure, she's got a good rate of fire and decent range. Her AP shells are good enough, but she doesn't put enough shells downrange to compete with the other big ships at her tier (other than her sister). It's a good thing she's got her secondaries and torpedoes. But, don't let all of this negativity lull you cruiser and battleship-drivers into complacency. Tirpitz is still a battleship and she's still throwing 6.4 tonnes of death at you every twenty-six seconds. If only a third of that hits you, you're still going to have what the Chieftain describes as "a significant emotional event". Her guns are good enough. However, her overall firepower is phenomenal. Summary: Her main battery is weak. Her AP performance is okay but still miles behind the Japanese and American battleships. If that weren't enough, the gun dispersion will troll you often. This isn't a long range sniper by any stretch. Her secondaries are awesome, though they're not the be-all-end-all murder-machines they appear to be. You'll rarely get to use her torpedoes, but when you do, they will be game changers Versus Bismarck Tirpitz is better armed than Bismarck, having access to deck mounted torpedoes while Bismarck does not. In addition, Tirpitz has slightly better forward fire angles on two of her 105mm secondaries which are placed further out from the hull. The two sisters are otherwise identical here. Manoeuvrability Top Speed: 30.5 knotsTurning Radius: 850mRudder Shift: 16.0s Maximum Rotation Rate: 4.11º/s Tirpitz has speed to spare. She's not the fastest battleship at her tier (Bismarck holds that honour by a half knot), but she's pretty damn quick. A lot of apologies can be made for a ship with long legs. It facilitates much. It provides her with flexibility. It allows you to get out of (and into) trouble. It also can partially mitigate a bad turning radius as she'll come about faster than her turning circle might otherwise indicate. As far as her handling goes, it's not great. She has a long rudder shift time and an enormous turning circle. The only spot of good news is that she can throw the ship about at a respectable 4.1º/s despite these shortcomings. Adding Steering Gears Modification 2 can reduce her rudder shift time down to 12.8 seconds but this doesn't help her rate of turn significantly. In terms of manoeuvrability, Tirpitz will never be anything but average for a large battleship. She has more power than agility. Versus Bismarck Bismarck is half a knot faster than Tirpitz in a straight line. She's also slightly faster in a turn, keeping a speed of 23.4 knots when her rudder is hard over while Tirpitz lags behind at 23.0 knots. This increases Bismarck's rate of rotation to 4.2º/s. If there's one thing Tirpitz doesn't want for, it's speed. She's able to sprint at over 30 knots -- more than enough to keep up with the rest of the fleet and traverse the enormous high tier maps with haste. DurabilityHit Points: 69,300Maximum Protection: 315mm belt + 120mm turtleback + 45mm citadel wall Min Bow & Deck Armour: 32mmTorpedo Damage Reduction: 22% There's a lot to talk about here and not all of it good. There has been a significant meta shift for Tirpitz over the summer of 2017. Let's start with the really bad stuff. First of all, Tirpitz has awful torpedo protection for a high tier ship. The values at tier VIII vary from 19% up to 49% and Tirpitz definitely sits in the lower half. At least she's not the worst. Torpedoes will hit her for most of their listed damage and you can expect to take flooding criticals from most hits. She's a big target and she doesn't dodge well, so torpedoes (especially the air dropped kind) love you. Moving on... Tirpitz is horribly vulnerable to both American and German AP bombs dropped by Dive Bombers. Ironically in this game, the more armour you have on your decks, the more dangerous AP dive bombers become. Suffice to say, Tirpitz is "well protected" across her decks and the roof of her citadel. In practice this means she has enough armour to arm the fuses of any AP bombs that strike her and guarantee they won't overpenetrate. She can and will take multiple citadel hits from armour piercing bombs and it is not uncommon for her to be deleted outright from an attack wave of dive bombers from Enterprise or Graf Zeppelin, even from full health. Anytime Tirpitz faces Enterprise or Graf Zeppelin (or any future CV with AP bombs), take heed. These are your nemesis. Citadel hits are thankfully rare otherwise. While her excellent armour scheme works at cross-purposes with itself against AP bombs, it functions as designed against shell strikes. The armour design is very straight forward with a 315mm thick strip of external belt armour, an interior 45mm thick citadel wall and, between them, a 120mm angled plate to help divert or deflect incoming shells. Were these a simple sandwich of vertical plates, this would combine to a total thickness of 480mm -- proof enough against the penetration power of even the vaunted USN 406mm/45s at a range of 15km but the angle of the turtleback makes this even thicker. In practice, her opponents cannot land citadel hits against her at medium to close ranges. It's only from far out shots, with high penetration shells that she need worry and even then it's a rarity. Her short range protection gets even more impressive under close inspection. Not only can she prevent citadel penetrations, but the extended 60mm bow armour can allow her to ricochet even Yamato's 460mm AP shells aimed at her waterline (this won't hold up if she aims a little higher, though). A properly angled Tirpitz can survive a ridiculous amount of AP-shell punishment thrown at her. It doesn't hurt that Tirpitz has the highest hit point total at her tier which translates to a Repair Party consumable that heals a generous 9,702hp per charge. With much of the ship being covered by a minimum of 60mm of armour, Tirpitz enjoys significant protection against HE throwing vessels. Her amidship hull is all but immune to damage saturation from destroyer and cruiser thrown-HE shells (the notable exception being Graf Spee). However, this all falls apart when the Royal Navy battleships show up to ruin the fun. This has presented a rather pronounced shift in Tirpitz's meta. Where before the ship could build for secondary gun fire, manoeuvrability and concealment, commanders are now forced to seriously consider stocking up on survivability skills instead to mitigate fire damage. There is no solid protection against the Royal Navy high explosive shells for Tirpitz, short of finding cover or sinking the offending party. Tirpitz's Damage Control Party is often overtaxed in such encounters and skills like Fire Prevention, Basics of Survivability and High Alert as well as upgrades like Damage Control Modification 2 have increased significantly in value. The prevalence of Royal Navy Battleships is beginning to ebb somewhat, but survivability builds are still very much worth considering. The shift in meta has hurt Tirpitz's survivability in a few short months. She's still a very tough ship, but the good grades she previously earned have been marred with new developments. While she has always had to fear airstrikes, AP bombs present a new and very immediate threat to which she has no answer but to hope allies protect her. The prevalence of high explosive shells being thrown everywhere has made her great armour scheme less valuable. At least the RAF doesn't get to dump Tallboy bombs on you. There are more answers to counter Tirpitz than before. This doesn't make her durability rating poor. She's just not the be-all-end-all that she once was in this regard. Versus Bismarck Tirpitz outweighs Bismarck and enjoys a 100hp advantage over her sister ship. Bismarck has a thicker armoured belt, though, which reaches 320mm. This 5mm advantage also extends to her underwater belt protection which is 245mm versus 240mm on Tirpitz. Otherwise, the two sisters are very close in this regard. Broken in half by sustained Battleship and Cruiser fire, this cross section (though tragic) gives a beautiful interior view of the compartmentalization and different armour layers which makes the Tirpitz so tough to citadel. Concealment & Camouflage Base Surface Detection Range: 16.38km Air Detection Range: 14.79 km Minimum Surface Detection Range: 12.30km Surface Detection when Firing in Smoke: 15.05km Main Battery Range: 21.45km Surface Detection within Tier: 6th out of 9, behind Alabama & Alabama ST. Surface Detection within Matchmaking: 15th out of 33 The Bismarck-sisters used to be considered reasonably stealthy for a tier VIII battleship. The introduction of Royal Navy Monarch changed this definition, however, with a 1.8km advantage over the German leviathans. Still, Tirpitz's surface detection isn't terrible, it's just nothing to get excited about anymore. Still, it's pretty hilarious sneaking upon tier VII cruisers and magically appearing in front of them like a total creeper. Versus Bismarck The two sister ships have the exact same surface detection range. This extends to their detection range when firing their guns in smoke. Bismarck is marginally more stealthy overall, though, with an aerial detection range of 14.67km. This is really too close to matter very much, though, especially at the speeds aircraft fly. Anti-Aircraft DefenseAA Battery Calibers: 105mm / 37mm / 20mmAA Umbrella Ranges: 4.5km / 3.5km / 2.0kmAA DPS per Aura: 134 / 21 / 84 Float Plane Fighter DPS: 60 Tirpitz has the lowest AA power among Battleships of her tier. Not only does she have less overall average damage per second, but her large caliber guns are shorter ranged than those found on Amagi, Kii, North Carolina or Alabama. This puts a big ol' target overtop of Tirpitz for any enemy carrier looking to hoover up some big damage numbers. However, Tirpitz is not without redeeming qualities. The majority of her anti-aircraft strength is found within her dual purpose 105mm batteries and this provides a comparable long-range punch to the American Battleships and gives Tirpitz a bit of a saving grace. Properly specialized with anti-aircraft skills, her AA defense can be brought up to a respectable level with Basic and Advanced Fire Training and the inclusion of Manual Fire Control for AA Guns. This is a heavy investment to bring Tirpitz up from a ready victim of aircraft to make her a less appealing target, though. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that an enemy aircraft will recognize or appreciate the difference. The stakes have only gotten higher for Tirpitz with the advent of armour piercing bombs. The proliferation of these weapons has made playing German Battleships more challenging. When one of these carriers is on the enemy team list, it's imperative (more so!) that Tirpitz hug the AA umbrella of friendly vessels judiciously, preferably with a cruiser armed with Defensive Fire to scatter the bomb drop. Even a 5.0km gap between vessels can spell the end, allowing for opportunistic strikes to end the German juggernaut in ridiculously short order. If I didn't impress it upon you earlier, I will say it again: ships like Enterprise and Graf Zeppelin are fully capable of destroying a full health Tirpitz with a single sortie of their bomber complement and there's no amount of manoeuvre that will save you. You do not have the AA power to fend off these attacks and you're one of the few targets they can do this to. You are a hunted ship from the moment the game begins, so seek the cover of your allies at all times. Yeah. Tirpitz's AA power is pretty bad. This is the reason every single aircraft will divert onto you if they see you're unsupported. Versus Bismarck Here's where the big difference really counts. Bismarck doesn't have especially good anti-aircraft firepower, but it's a damn sight better than Tirpitz. This can be enough to make Bismarck look like a less inviting target if a carrier needs to choose between them, which is really all that matters when push comes to shove. How to Made in German Insert mustachioed crazy-person picture here There are two primary builds for Tirpitz -- survivability and a manual-secondary build. You could consider this the difference between specializing for defense versus specializing for offense. For the Survivability Build your first ten skill points should be the following: Start with Priority Target. Take Adrenaline Rush for your next skill. If you're going to be taking damage, you may as well capitalize upon it. Next grab Superintendent for the extra heal. Cap it off with Fire Prevention to reduce the chance of being set ablaze and the number of fires that can be burning at one time. For your next nine points, spend them on Concealment Expert, Basics of Survivability and Expert Marksman. You have a little flexibility with this build. You can take High Alert as your last skill if you struggle on managing your Damage Control Party. This build is ideally backed with flags like India Delta (+20% Repair Party healing), India Yankee (-20% to Fire duration) and November Foxtrot (-5% to consumable reload time). For the Secondary Build, your first ten skill points looks like this: Begin with Priority Target. Take Adrenaline Rush for your next skill. Improve that secondary reload time! Up next is Basic Fire Training to increase their rate of fire further still. This has the added bonus of giving your AA power a little more teeth. Take Advanced Fire Training as your next skill to throw that range out to your maximum reach. For your next nine points, Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament should be your first priority. After that, it's up to you which skills to choose. The highest value skills for Tirpitz are (in no particular order), Fire Prevention, Expert Marksman, Concealment Expert, Vigilance, and Superintendent. Special mention deserves to be placed towards Manual Fire Control for AA Guns. You can try and put it in there to give Tirpitz's AA power a little more teeth. Her dual purpose 105mm guns do put out an excellent bit of firepower (albeit at 4.5km range). This will make her a thorny prospect for some of the lower tier carriers, but it will not save you when something of equal tier or higher decides it wants your hit points. Worse, even with this upgrade, it's unlikely to dissuade enemy CVs from trying their luck anyway and you're not going to wipe out the attack craft wave so you will still end up taking damage. Still, you can at least make attacks on your vulnerable BB more costly for the carriers, but don't kid yourself in thinking this will be a tremendous help. I never thought I would say this but air dropped torpedoes aren't Tirpitz's most pressing concern these days. Overall Impressions Skill Floor: Simple / Casual / Challenging / Difficult If ever Tirpitz could have been called a premium battleship for beginners, that time has long passed. There are more threats to manage now and the use of consumables and positioning is of ever more importance. Granted, she is German and that does provide some training wheels for the novice, but she's not a simple ship to use... if she ever was. Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / High / Extreme Knowing every trick in the book will take you far with Tirpitz. She rewards angling, proper ammunition choices, abusing concealment, micromanaging consumables and min-maxing commander skills. However, she has no answer for aircraft from same tier or higher carriers (even Kaga and Saipan are considerable threats). Similarly, torpedo armed destroyers will dominate you. In this regard, no amount of skill will allow you to carry further beyond bringing a division mate to be your permanent flak battery and sonar buoy. The Lertbox Is she worth your money? The venerable Tirpitz. Is she still relevant? There is no denying that meta shifts and power creep have not been kind to her. Despite recent-ish buffs to her secondary range she still struggles around the middle of the pack in winrate and damage per game. I still have a soft spot for her though and believe she still has a place in this game. She's still the Queen of the Brawl with a very nasty poison dagger and destroyers should still fear her secondary battery. Where she falls apart though is in long range gunnery. Unfortunately with the introduction of the British BB line this is where the meta has been shifting; raining literal fire from afar. With only eight 15" barrels with mediocre accuracy she can't compete in a pure burning contest at long range. Other than that though, I believe Tirpitz still has a place in this game. She still excels in the brawl, she's still tough as nails. Even though she's not the queen of the tier 8 battleships anymore, she's still comfortable to drive. Mouse's Summary: Tirpitz is still the brawling heavyweight champion in the game. Her main battery guns wouldn't be terrible if they were more accurate or if she had more of them. Alas she doesn't. She's not incapable of doing large amounts of damage -- she just has to work at it more if you're only using her main battery guns. Once you supplement them with her secondaries and torpedoes, the sky's the limit. The only problem there is that opportunities to use the latter two weapon systems to their full effect aren't guaranteed and you run the risk of getting yourself wrecked if you try and do so before it's time. She's horribly vulnerable against aircraft and AP armed Dive Bombers make her wet herself and not in the sexy way. While it's arguably more intelligent to rig her for survivability, it's more fun to build her to use secondaries. I am glad I didn't finish this review when I started back in the Spring of 2017. I had originally wanted to talk about her after patch 0.6.0 -- to bring her up to date with the Captain skill change. However, it was when I received word that Tirpitz would be getting the same secondary gun range as Bismarck in patch 0.6.4 that pushed Tirpitz closer towards the top of my priority pile. 'What the heck is the point of Bismarck, then!?' I said to myself, groaning as yet another premium ship became arguably more powerful than her tech-tree counterpart. But I got busy -- first with Kaga, then Hood, then every other premium WG released over the summer. Tirpitz, and a hot-headed grump-fest about how she was superior to Bismarck, sat by the wayside. Then Enterprise showed up. Say what you will about this American carrier in World of Warships -- it announced a change in the meta that would be directed towards reigning in the dominance of battleships and the German battleships specifically. Tirpitz suffered especially with her poor AA rating. Wargaming followed this up by introducing Graf Zeppelin and the Royal Navy battleship line which seemed tailor made to neuter the German battleship strengths.. What made Tirpitz and Bismarck oh-so butt-kickingly powerful was punched in the throat. Their armour either mattered-for-not or it worked actively against them. So, powerful as Tirpitz is, she now faces one hard counter and a whole battleship line of soft counters. The meta has really shaken up around this premium battleship. Granted, she doesn't face this every game -- or even in most of her games. This has attacked some of the comfort level that used to exist when playing Tirpitz. In some games she can still be powerfully dominant. At other times, she's cowering on the second line until the bad airplanes and fire breathing dragons are properly neutralized. Now, I personally love this ship. It was one of the model kits that my father and I built together when I was little. Seeing her in World of Warships always touches on that small element of nostalgia for me. These rose tinted glasses are very dangerous to be wearing when trying to conduct an objective review. If I seem excessively negative about Tirpitz in this review, understand that I'm making sure I underline and stress her flaws. Tirpitz is still a great and powerful premium ship. Age may have tarnished her luster somewhat, but the buffs in 0.6.4 ensured she's able to stay not only relevant but highly competitive in the marketplace, even with AP Bombs and HE shells flying every which way. Tirpitz didn't sink the Bismarck when she received her improvements in 0.6.4, but she supplements her sister ship nicely. Any player that owns this ship should feel confident that she's still got it where it counts. Versus Bismarck Tirpitz does not make Bismarck redundant. The major difference between the two ships is the swap of AA Power and Hydroacoustic Search to equip yourself with a set of deck mounted torpedoes. That's a pretty serious quality-of-life changes for the sake of being able to shove fish up someone's nose. While it's wonderful for Tirpitz to be able to pull this off and it can be absolutely game changing when it happens, it's a rare occurence. AA power, on the other hand, is put to use far more often. So too can Bismarck's Hydrouacoustic Search any time she's being pursued by torpedo-armed destroyers. The buffs Tirpitz received didn't make her replace Bismarck -- she supplements her sister ship as any good premium sister-ship should, with her own fun strengths and weaknesses. Though things were looking up in patch 0.6.4, it hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows for Tirpitz since. Would I Recommend? Tirpitz used to be an easy recommendation across all categories. For PVE Battles How well does the ship maintain profitability in Co-Op modes and how does she fare against bots? Lert: Yeah. She still puts out a lot of damage at brawling range and she can still bully bots. She'll be a solid and steady earner. Mouse: Yes. Tirpitz is probably the ultimate Co-Op premium battleship so I cannot recommend her enough here.. Big guns, big secondary range and torpedoes? Combine that with speed and good armour -- those poor little bots don't stand a chance. You can forgo all pretense of subtlety and simply charge in, confident that you have the close-range damage to sink at least a pair of ships before going down. Earning 500 base experience in Co-Op is a breeze. This sort of confidence will no doubt spill over into Scenarios should they become available at her tier. Tripitz has a 39,375 credit repair cost with ammunition usually weighing and around the 7,500 to 15,000 credits to resupply. Thus, even a modest game will be self sustaining (especially with a premium account). You may have to forgo premium consumables if you have a stock account though. For Random Battle Grinding: This includes training captains, collecting free experience, earning credits and collecting signal flags from achievements. Lert: She'll still pull in the credits and the close quarters expert badges and she'll still train your german captains in comfort. She gets a recommendation of Yes here. Mouse: Yes. Though Tirpitz is harder to recommend as a Random Battle vessel, I would still say she's a good purchase overall. She no longer feels like the dominating presence she was before Enterprise and the Royal Navy battleships joined the game. Moreover, on the North American server at least, she is facing tier X battles more and more often, but this is a problem inherent to all tier VIII premiums at the moment. For Competitive Gaming: Competitive Gaming includes Ranked Battles and other skill-based tournaments. This also includes stat-padding. Lert: No. There are other alternatives that better fit the meta. Mouse: No. Tirpitz is not the best choice for Ranked Battles. Her gunnery is too unreliable and her lack of anti-aircraft firepower can be a liability depending upon team composition. If this is your primary reason for wanting a premium ship, I would give her a pass here. She can compete, but there are better and more versatile choices. For Collectors: If you enjoy ship history or possessing rare ships, this section is for you. Lert: It's Tirpitz, the ship that scared the pants off of wartime Britain without actually doing anything other than sipping martinis and swatting at RAF flies in a fjord. Plus, she's one of the most beautiful ships in the game. Very yes. Mouse: Yes. Tirpitz's history is less glamorous than her sister ship and full of what ifs, but she certainly gets the imagination going. Plus, Wargaming can't seem to stop making cool premium camouflages for her. For Fun Factor: Bottom line: Is the ship fun to play? Lert: Brawling is fun. Ships that are comfortable to drive are fun. A strong yes here. Mouse: Very yes. Tirpitz is the sort of ship where those memorable moments keep rolling in. What's the Final Verdict? How would the ship rate on an Angry YouTuber scale of Garbage - Meh - Good - Overpowered?
  4. ...and where can i get one? (this is a footnote from the devblog about the us line split.)
  5. LcdrSwizzle

    Graf Spee main gun range

    I do think that the Graf Spee should have greater main battery range, and that it's secondaries have also been "nerfed" from what they could do in real life. However, I do realize that "game balance" is important. So, here's a thought about a change to that ship: Right now, it can only carry a Fighter. What about letting it carry a Spotter as well? Thanks for the upcoming discussion!
  6. OKIES_NAVY

    GERMAN CV's?

    I'm confidant this is about the last topic you'd care to hear about or more likely hear more about. I have to believe WOW has lost its way introducing German CV's to a game who hasn't seen an Italian Battleship or Destroyer line. Lines of ships that actually existed in history being pre-empted by a line of exclusively, save one, paper ships simply boggles the mind. Is there an Earth shaking demand for German CV's? Not only are you bringing to life paper ships but you are also endowing them with paper super weapons. Mind you the Germans had a guided missile, of sorts, but it was never launched from a CV. Perhaps that's another little surprise we have to look forward to in the future? To add insult to injury two of the three dominant Navies of WWII are withering on the vine. The USN and IJN are being power creeped into obscurity with only premium ships providing any grace what so ever. The Brits are having issues themselves. I have to assume these are purely business decisions. The NA player numbers is far from huge and I'm sure the number of Italian players is dwarfed by those from Russia. The only reason I'm doing this now is because I failed to include it in the after clan season survey. I felt it didn't really belong there any way.
  7. I saw this topic in the EU forums and realized I couldn't post since I have an NA account... so i thought I'd start a topic here since everyone seems to blow off the Agir as a poor ship.... I'm an average player who should know better... I often makes mistakes due to being too aggressive and not waiting long enough to make a push... I find AGIR to be a great ship at pushing caps and stalking island chains since its combo of Hydro, Torps and workable armour makes you a pretty good brawler. I've been using a tank survivability build with a quicker rudder, turrets, and stealth of course. His guns can hit very hard if you aim at the right areas... he has much better accuracy than Odin. Long range I shoot above the waterline at BB's and AP superstructure shots at bow on heavy cruisers.... Inside of 8-10km these guns can often punch thru any BB armour broadside.... With broadside cruiser I find that a little bit of angle... say 10*... mitigates a fair amount of shot that could become overpens... I had to pick up a work phone call while duelling the Riga and made two dumb mistakes... shot the rocks TWICE while trying to multi task... otherwise I should have been able to kill her and made more of a nuisance of myself. She didnt do to bad against the T8 CV.... was able to fend off most re-attacks after the first strike. Note that I only fired one broadside of HE all game... I usually load HE for starters to lit up DD's going for early caps. Secondaries did fairly well, 27% hit rate, and caused 3 fires... for a combined total of 15k damage.... I did NOTHING to buff them. I would also take this with a pinch of salt... as you will see that in the replay... a Bismarck tries to run from me at close range for a song and dance until I showed him what his brother Tirpitz got instead of Hydro... I was also able to tank almost 1.5 million potential damage... not bad for a ship in Cruiser MM... I also find that you get alot more opportunitites for crosffire broadsides on BB's since they have to angle against your teams BB's. All in all I am very happy with this ship so far... she needs to play a certain style but it fits me... also I may be biased towards the chonky Germans as I am basically an Angry Prussian in Space/ Imperial Fist. Appropriate meme for most of my playstyle this game .... 20200614_202938_PGSC519- BEST REPLAY AEGIR Aegir_25_sea_hope.wowsreplay
  8. What is taking so long for the Seigfried , the Agir to come out not to mention the Odin it seems like wargaming hates the Germans they take some of the most accurate ships known to make them suck at accuracy they give us a ton of Russian paper ships that quite frankly are over powered and some of the hysterically over powered , and we still have not seen these ships yet why not and last I checked they have nerfed them to the point where they are not good at all but buff Russian ships that were already overpowered wth is going on wargaming ohh and don't get me started on Italian battle ships where the hell are they why are we getting more Russian paper ships when there was a whole Italian fleet that was real and it is not in the game really come on , am I the only one who thinks this is messed up I love the game but come on even a blind man with one good ear can understand what they are doing so why do they hate the Germans and pretend that there navy was so awesome that it doesn't deserve the same treatment that every other navy is getting?
  9. LittleWhiteMouse

    Premium Ship Review: Z-39

    The following is a review of Z-39, a ship kindly provided to me by Wargaming. This is the release version of the vessel and these stats are current as of May 13th, 2018. (Still) Not T-61. Quick Summary: An under-armed tier VIII destroyer crammed in at tier VII but it kept it's tier VIII bonuses. Cost: Undisclosed at the time of publishing. Patch & Date Written: 0.7.4 to 0.7.4.1, May 4th to 13th, 2018. PROS Massive hit point pool of 19,600hp. Large caliber HE shell with excellent fire chance per hit and good penetration potential. Good AP shell penetration for a destroyer. Decent personal AA defense. Access to Hydoracoustic Search like all German Destroyers. With upgrades, she's one of the stealthiest destroyers at tier VII. Has several tier VIII destroyer bonuses, including: 5th upgrade slot. Improved fire resistance coefficient. Longer range and duration time of her Hydroacoustic Search Longer smoke duration for her Smoke Generator CONS Horrible DPM output, especially with HE shells against destroyers. Her torpedoes don't hit very hard. AA DPS is short ranged and restricted to fragile small & medium caliber AA guns. Feels very clumsy with a large turning circle and modest top speed. Enormous aerial detection range of over 4km. Stuck with a German Smoke Generator with their reduced smoke duration times. Overview Skill Floor: Simple / Casual / Challenging / Difficult Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / High / Extreme Z-39 is a German destroyer with training wheels. She has excellent concealment and an enormous hit point pool -- two traits that will make her much more forgiving in the hands of inexperienced commanders. The only hiccough here is her clumsy handling, but her Hydroacoustic Search should ease dealing with any manoeuvrability issues in regards to torpedoes. For experts, Z-39 is a German destroyer but with surprisingly good (!) concealment for her tier. This opens up all sorts of game play opportunities not normally available to German DDs which she can use and abuse to great effect. Her systems break down as follows: - One of, if not the worst at its tier. This is a pronounced weakness. - Middle of the pack at its tier. Not terrible, but not terribly good either. - Has a significant advantage over her tier mates. A solid, competitive performer. - No other ship at its tier does this as well as this ship. Z-39 has the concealment and the durability at her tier which is all kinds of crazy. Her firepower is is on the low side of saved only by the large caliber of her guns which opens up gunnery possibilities not normally available to destroyers. Otherwise, it would be . Her anti aircraft defense is unremarkable. Her handling is about as as you would expect for a large, German destroyer and compares poorly to her contemporaries. What we have with Z-39 is a destroyer that has the ability to control engagements with its superior concealment and detection tools and her ability to endure punishment far greater than normally possible for a tier VII destroyer. This helps make up for her mediocre firepower. Note that she's not fast or agile enough to unilaterally dictate engagement distances. Options Consumables: There are two consumables worth noting on Z-39. Despite being a tier VII destroyer, Z-39 has tier VIII versions of these consumables. German Smoke Generators produce individual clouds that do not last as long as other nations. For tier VII German destroyers each cloud lasts 65s seconds. On Z-39, her smoke lasts 69 seconds. This is still less than the standard at tier VII which is 85 seconds for most destroyers and 121 seconds for American DDs. Once again, Z-39's Hydroacoustic Search has improved duration and range over her tier VII counterpart. Her hydro picks up torpedoes from 3.12km (up from 2.97km) and ships at 4.44km (up from 4.2km). Camouflage Z-39 comes with Type 10 Camouflage. This provides 50% bonus experience gains, a 10% reduction to repair costs, 3% reduced surface detection range and increases dispersion of incoming fire by 4% Upgrades The big surprise for Z-39 is that she has access to a 5th upgrade slot at tier VII. In your first slot take Magazine Modification 1. You're a destroyer with a lot of hit points. Don't let a sudden detonation undermine that. Alternatively, if you like to live dangerously, you can take Main Armaments Modification 1. If you have access to it, the special upgrade Hydracoustic Search Modification 1 is optimal for your second slot. Without it, take Propulsion Modification 1. Speed is life for a destroyer. Aiming System Modification 1 is best for your third slot. However, the special upgrade Smoke Generator Modification 1 is also a good choice if available. Take Propulsion Modification 2 in your fourth slot for more get-up-and-go when parked in your smoke. And finally, round things off with Concealment Modification 1. Firepower Main Battery: Four 150mm rifles in 3 turrets with a twin-gun turret on the bow and X-Y turrets in single, superfiring mounts. Torpedo Armament: Eight torpedoes in 2x4 launchers mounted down the center line. Z-39's gunnery is weird. She uses enormous 150mm rifles -- the largest weapons currently found on destroyers. Her guns are also laid out in a strange arrangement with a 2-1-1, A-X-Y superfiring layout. None of this makes her gunnery feel novel, however, and it's often a struggle to make Z-39's artillery perform as needed. The DPM Deficit The biggest obstacle with getting Z-39 to perform is overcoming the challenges in getting her damage numbers up. While she does boast the largest guns among destroyers at her tier, they are slow firing with a 7.5 second reload time. Unlike Blyskawica which also shares a long, 6.5 second reload, she doesn't have a lot gun barrels with a mere four. These also have pretty sluggish gun handling for a destroyer and their large size precludes them from maximizing the effects of Expert Marksman. Combine this with impotent performance of her HE damage for a large-caliber gun and she cannot keep pace with the throughput of the other destroyers. She is the worst for potential HE DPM and third from the bottom for AP DPM. Embarrassingly, even Shitarsuyu puts out more HE shell damage than Z-39. This is made worse in that Z-39's guns cannot have their rate of fire upgraded with Basic Fire Training which only widens the gap further. Her fire setting ability is similarly balls, even though she has a great fire chance per shell. She just doesn't throw enough munitions downfield fast enough to make her particularly good at taxing Damage Control Parties to make multiple fires stick. If it weren't for her beefy hit point pool, taking this ship into a fight with enemy destroyers would be a fool's errand. Z-39's firepower woes can't be blamed on her gun angles, at least. They're not great, but they're not terrible. Stickin' It In Z-39's guns aren't though. While they lack in a knife fight, Z-39's guns are not missing out in penetration potential. Her AP shells boast up to 100mm of penetration up to ranges just shy of 10km. Most other destroyers can scarcely manage that at 5km to 7km. The comparison gets better with HE shells. While German destroyers do not enjoy the 1/4 HE pen found on German battleships and cruisers, Z-39 still fares better than her contemporaries. Their large-caliber can be upgraded with the Inertial Fuse for HE Shells commander skill to damage the extremities of any ship she encounters. Most destroyers are unable to hurt the bow, deck and stern of tier VIII+ battleships even with this skill. Z-39 has a larger range of targets she can directly damage with the right upgrade choice. Z-39 may not output damage as quickly as other lolibotes, she's better equipped to stack damage reliably against a larger number of targets. At Least She's Not Minsk Z-39's torpedoes are as unexciting as her guns. However, given the spotty torpedo performance of the other destroyers at tier VII, having some mediocre workhorse torpedoes isn't a bad thing. Indeed, Z-39's fish have a lot going for them. They have good range unlike the painfully short reach of Minsk or one of the two armaments for Sims. She uses quadruple launchers instead of the triples like Blyskawica. She has two launchers instead of the single launcher found on Cossack. They're fast too, unlike the sluggish wallow of those found on Mahan, and the second armament for Sims. The only area where Z-39's torpedoes are truly found wanting is their hitting power. At 14,400 damage per, they're simply uninspiring. And that well describes her torpedoes. A much more meaty 16k damage per hit would really make these weapons stand out. As it is, they're functional but they're not show stoppers. They're sufficient unto the task and nothing more. Summary: Her guns are pretty terrible for taking on enemy destroyers but alright for padding a bit of damage on anything else. This said, don't be shy of slapping lolibotes around with them. Her torpedoes are okay. Not bad. Not great. Just okay Evaluation: What it would have needed to be : Z-39 only escaped a evaluation because Sims & Minsk exist and I'm still not entirely convinced that Z-39's firepower bests either one of them. Defense Hit Points: 19,600hp Maximum Protection: 30mm faceplate on A-turret Minimum Extremities & Deck Armour: 19mm Destroyer defense and durability is pretty easy to measure. It really boils down to the following three questions: Does the ship have any weird durability related consumables like Repair Party? Does the ship have any weird superfluous hull armour that any of the other destroyers lack? How many hit points does it have in comparison to the other destroyers at her tier? The answers are no, no and lots more than those puny, wimpy boats. Z-39 is a thunderchunker that, with Survivability Expert, can boast nearly 10,000 more hit points than some of its tier VII competitors (to say nothing of tier V and VI DDs). This more than makes up for the DPM deficit on her main battery guns and allows her to easily bully almost any other same-tier destroyer. On top of this, some of those tier VIII bonuses carried on here. Datamining revealed that Z-39 kept her improved fire resistance coefficient. This is really a minor bonus all told, but it does mean that she comes baked in with 6% improved fire resistance over other tier VII destroyer. It is a good day to be giant man. Hit Point totals of tier VII destroyers, including the WiP HMS Cossack. Note the bar in purple represents the 2,450hp gained through using the commander skill, Survivability Expert. Evaluation: What would have to happen to DOWNGRADE to : Something would have to be released with weird (better) hull armour plating, a Repair Party or more hit points than Z-39. Agility Top Speed: 36.0 knots Turning Radius: 670m Rudder Shift Time: 4.5s Maximum Rate of Turn: 7.0º/s While Z-39's agility is her worst quality, I rate it as less of a weakness than her temperamental main battery firepower. Still, it would be a mistake to underestimate the impacts here. Z-39 isn't just slow for a tier VII destroyer, she's slow for a destroyer within her Matchmaking spread. Her Engine Boost consumable should be reserved for getting her out of the trouble. She'll struggle to dictate engagement distances otherwise. Her turning radius is appalling for a destroyer. Combined with her modest top speed, this makes her really sluggish in a turn. Just to make things worse, her gun traverse is only 1.0º/s faster than her maximum rotation speed. This makes her gun handling feel even worse and you'll be reaching for your rudder to help with bringing your guns on target. Expert Marksman can only correct this by 0.7º/s owing to the larger caliber of Z-39's guns. Z-39 handles like a bus. It's a good thing she has Hydroacoustic Search to give her more time to prep for torpedo beats. Without it, she'd be a blind bus. Evaluation: What it would have needed to be : At a minimum, a 38 knot top speed to at least bring her up over the average for a tier VII destroyer. Anti-Aircraft Defense AA Battery Calibers: 37mm / 20mm AA Umbrella Ranges: 3.5km / 2.0km AA DPS per Aura: 46.4 / 20.4 While not up to American (or later Soviet) destroyer standards, Z-39 has an impressive anti-aircraft suite. This is largely owing to the excellent performance of the twin 37mm Flak LM/42 mounts of which Z-39 boasts four. This destroyer can put out a surprising amount of AA DPS into the air, which is a welcome change from most DDs which are generally little more than victims to air predation. There are a couple of downsides to Z-39's AA protection, however: First, Z-39 has an enormous aerial detection range of 4.38km. This outstrips the range of her AA gunners by 700m. While this does mean that you can keep Z-39's AA defenses active without worrying about giving away her position, it does mean she gets spotted by aircraft without any ability to retaliate if her range isn't upgraded with AA Guns Modification 2 or Advanced Fire Training. Secondly, Z-39's entire AA defense is built around small and medium caliber AA guns which are excessively fragile, particularly when she takes HE damage. Only a few HE strikes are needed to end her AA defense entirely. Overall, it's not worth specializing into AA firepower with Z-39. At best, you can hope to shoot down a couple of enterprising aircraft in the opening stages of the match, particularly if they're lower tiered planes. But it would be a mistake to expect anything more from her defenses. Evaluation: What it would have needed to be : Dual purpose guns are a must to form a backbone of longer range AA defense. Refrigerator Surface Detection Range: 7.74 km Air Detection Range: 4.38 km Minimum Surface Detection Range: 6.08km Concealment when Firing in Smoke: 3.31km The only thing keeping Z-39 from dominating Vision Control at tier VII is the looming threat of HMS Cossack. What makes Z-39 so powerful is the combination of her enormous hit point pool and concealment. Thanks to access to her 5th upgrade slot where she can install Concealment Modification 1, Z-39 is one of the stealthiest tier VII destroyers in the game. The only destroyers that are more stealthy are Shirtatsuyu with a 5.8km surface detection range and the still-under-development HMS Cossack with a 5.7km surface detection range when each ship is fully upgraded. This 400m gap means less when you account for Z-39's Hydroacoustic Search consumable. This allows her to all but dominate vision where smoke and torpedoes are concerned. She again only comes up second with HMS Cossack's own hydro which, while not as long ranged, is long-lasting. It's a close competition between these two premiums for dominance in vision control at tier VII and Z-39 will hold primacy at least until HMS Cossack's release. A word of caution for all this praise, however. As nice as Z-39's concealment is when she's top tier, it falls apart when she's not. Every single tier VIII and IX destroyer has better surface detection than Z-39 with the exception of the German and Soviet tuba-players and lolibotes. Unlike the lower tiered boats that can out spot you, just about all of these will fight back and embarrass you. So this advantage goes right out the window. Evaluation: What would have to happen to DOWNGRADE to : Cossack (and possibly Haida's) release. From A to Z Optional Skills in green & purple. There's a bit of flexibility when it comes to choosing Z-39's skills. However, you want to begin with a solid foundation. Feel free to try out some builds of your own with ShipComrade's Skill Calculator. Start with Priority Target. You're still a destroyer, so Last Stand is of paramount importance. Take Survivability Expert at tier 3 to bump up your hit points. And finally take Concealment Expert at tier 4. I highly recommend taking Inertial Fuse for HE Shells as your fifth skill -- this opens up a large range of gunnery targets for Z-39, including all cruisers and battleships at tier VIII+. You can opt out of doing this if you wish, but her damage potential will suffer. For optional skills, I recommend Adrenaline Rush and Superintendent to round out your last two skill choices, but you have options here depending on what role you envision your destroyer using. If you wish to try to tax the Damage Control Party of enemy ships, then dropping IFHE for Demolition Expert and Torpedo Armament Expertise is a viable option. I would round this out with Superintendent for added smoke. Vigilance is a more passive skill choice but your battleships will thank you for the increased torpedo detection range you will provide, especially when your Hydroacoustic Search is active. Expert Marksman is, overall, a weak choice but it will increase the comfort of handling Z-39 while under manoeuvres. Final Evaluation Mouse's Summary: For such a wet-noodle when it comes to firepower, Z-39 doesn't struggle to stack damage. There's something to be said about being the toughest little tyke in the kiddy pool. The bonuses she kept on from her time as a tier VIII test ship make her feel just that little bit more special. As far as gimmicks go, this is more refreshing than simply seeing a Repair Party or Torpedo Reload Booster used to correct an under-performing ship. Stealth and size both? Just who the Hell does she think she is? HMS Conqueror? I was genuinely shocked at how well this destroyer plays. It really surprised me. I took one look at her four 150mm guns with their odd placement and slow traverse and dismissed her something I wouldn't enjoy playing. It seemed like a distraction until something better (namely T-61) came. Suffice to say, Z-39 changed my opinion. and I'm glad she has. Let me add a few sobering words -- Z-39 is amazing when top-tier but her luster fades when facing higher tiered ships. It's common for a vessel to lose a bit of flair when Matchmaker slaps you around. However, Z-39's advantages -- namely concealment and her hit point total, don't amount too much when facing higher tiered ships. The stealth that makes her remarkable at tier VII is on the poor side for a tier VIII ship. Her beefy hit point total more than makes up for her ... well, let me be kind in saying "limp" main battery performance amounts to little when dueling with ships with enough hit points to challenge her. There's a reason, after all, that Wargaming elected to drop her from tier VIII to tier VII. Z-39 brings up the question of power creep. She's arguably one of (if not the) best destroyers at her tier. When she can guarantee to receive protected Matchmaking, such as in Ranked Battles, it's hard to argue against her merits. On the one hand, this is welcome for all the wrong reasons: the German destroyer tech tree has been utterly lacking in any form of premium for training purposes. I'm glad to see this gap filled. On the other hand, I am looking at Blyskawica with an air of pity as she becomes just that much less special. Z-39 herself is going to be power creeped with HMS Cossack (and possibly HMCS Haida) coming on the horizon which threaten to undermine her vision control dominance. This begs the question on how stable the meta is at tier VII for destroyers. Tier VII has long been red-headed step child tier for lolibotes. Like most vessels, destroyers tend to get larger as you climb in tiers and their surface detection balloons as they go. At tier VIII this gets mitigated by the Concealment System Modification 1 upgrade. With concealment being such an integral aspect of so many destroyers, their tier VII brethren suffer greatly when up-tiered. To this end, I loathe the 5th module upgrade slot for creating this artificial performance cliff. It doesn't just affect destroyers but cruisers and (to a lesser degree) battleships. So while Z-39 is a good tier VII destroyer, destroyers at tier VII are generally not good unless top-tier. This must moderate my opinion somewhat and I caution anyone new to the game that is as yet unaware of this stigma. Would I Recommend? I think the most relevant question would be if Z-39 is worth it or should a player wait for T-61, the other German premium destroyer. T-61 remains a Work in Progress -- subject to change if Wargaming so wishes while Z-39 is finalized in her current form. The two destroyers are very different beasts. As I write this, T-61 is the best destroyer at tier VI and not by a small margin. She's a torpedo destroyer primarily, but her guns aren't terrible. What makes her so memorable is her lack of overall weaknesses and the fast reload on her heavy torpedo armament. T-61 currently up-tiers better than Z-39, only feeling uncomfortable when she faces tier VIII opponents. Naturally, play style preferences may dictate one ship being preferable over the other, but in terms of relative power level, Z-39 is comparable to T-61, tier for tier. It's all a matter of personal choice. PVE Battles How well does the ship maintain profitability in Co-Op modes and how does she fare against bots? Yes. Destroyers are a bit of an odd duck in PVE modes. Alpha strike and concealment are of paramount importance as the bots always know where you are (though they won't fire at you until you're spotted). Z-39 has the hit points to tough out attacks and her quad torpedo launchers hit hard enough to best most bots. Random Battle Grinding:This includes training captains, collecting free experience, earning credits and collecting signal flags from achievements. Yes. Z-39 is a thug. Top tier, it doesn't feel fair going up against enemy DDs. She's tough enough to be a threat to any destroyer within her matchmaking spread. For Competitive Gaming:Competitive Gaming includes Ranked Battles and other skill-based tournaments. This also includes stat-padding. Yes. The combination of stealth, Hydroacoustic Search and deep health reserves makes Z-39 a solid contender for competitive modes. The only down sides, really, are her poor striking power. For Collectors:If you enjoy ship history or possessing rare ships, this section is for you. No. Z-39 was built in steel and served during WW2. Her career didn't see any action against enemy surface ships, however, which kinda limits her appeal. She did survive the war and ended up serving briefly with the United States and France. For Fun Factor Bottom line: Is the ship fun to play? Yes. She's a bully with all the tools you could ever want in a German destroyer. What's the Final Verdict?How would the ship rate on an Angry YouTuber scale of Garbage - Meh - Gud - Overpowered? GARBAGE - The boat is unbalanced, not fun to play and weak. The ship desperately needs some buffs or some quality of life changes.Mehbote - An average ship. Has strengths and weaknesses. Doesn't need buffs to be viable however she's not going to be considered optimal.Gudbote - A powerful ship, often one of the best ships at a given role within its tier. Usually considered optimal for a given task.OVERPOWERED - The boat is unbalanced and powerful. Typically she's either horrible to play against or she redefines the meta entirely. In Closing This is Premium Ship Review number 99. I'm pretty sure I know what number 100 will be. It's amazing to me that I'm reaching this number at all, especially given the hurdles on getting here. I have a pretty good idea on what number 100 is going to be given the number of premiums Wargaming has dropped on my lap for testing and the small windows I have to review them. The next review should be up within the next week and a half. I would like to thank my patrons on Patreon for their continued support. Their contributions help make putting time into these reviews possible. Even the small donations make a world of difference, so thanks to everyone that tosses in even a few bucks. Thank you all for reading! Appendix A list of sites, programs and people I rely upon to create my reviews. For a list of my other reviews, please visit this thread. Destroyers and Cruisers are linked on post #2. Battleships and Aircraft Carriers are on post #3.
  10. The following is a review of Mainz, the tier VIII German light cruiser. This ship was kindly provided to me by Wargaming for review purposes. To the best of my knowledge, the performance and statistics discussed in this review are current as of patch 0.9.2.1. Please be aware that she may change in the future. I can't think about this ship without thinking of dseehafer, one of the players and forumites from the North American server. I knew dseehafer from his "Know the Difference" series of articles. My grasp of the history surrounding these ships has always been shaky so I gravitated towards people in the know, particularly those who can present such information in a fun way. I always looked forward to one of his comparisons and history blurbs. Like many of us obsessed with this game, he proposed possible candidates for future vessels in World of Warships. One of his proposals was this very ship -- an Admiral Hipper-class cruiser with 150mm guns. This was the first I became aware of the possibility and it seemed like a wonderful idea. Like many of you, I've been annoying Wargaming about it off and on over the years. Regardless of how it came to be in World of Warships, to me this is dseehafer's ship. He passed away almost two years ago today. I hope he would have enjoyed Mainz. I wish he was still around to be able to tell me everything that's wrong about it. This review is dedicated to his memory. PROS Her citadel protection is very trollish at medium-to-close ranges. Good main battery firing range of 17.5km. Awesome guns with high DPM and HE penetration. Heavy, fast-loading torpedo armament. Impressive levels of AA firepower. German Hydroacoustic Search. Doesn't require a deep commander-skill build to make her effective. CONS Light cruiser armour instead of mirroring Admiral Hipper & Prinz Eugen's structural plate. Bad fire angles on her main battery guns, especially rearward. Short torpedo range. Slow and clumsy. Stonkin' huge and visible for miles. Overview Skill Floor: Simple / CASUAL / Challenging/ Difficult Skill Ceiling: Low / Moderate / HIGH/ Extreme Mainz is easy to play: Hold down your left mouse button and hoover up massive amounts of damage. Her HE spam and fire setting are both top shelf. I'd rate her as "simple" if it wasn't so hard to keep her alive. Novice players will get themselves killed pretty quickly if they're not careful. For veterans, the combination of her poor agility, enormous surface detection and squishy outer armour holds her back. This ship is on the cusp of greatness if she had just a little bit more armour or heals or something. Still, she can pull off some pretty amazing things provided your opponents are idiots. But that's not a caveat you want to count upon. Options It's kind of refreshing to see a no-nonsense ship like Mainz. Consumables Nothing out of the ordinary here except for the usual German-cruiser hydro bonus. Mainz's Damage Control Party is standard for a cruiser with unlimited charges, a 5s active period and a 90s/60s reset timer. Her second slot provides you with a choice between two consumables: Her Hydroacoustic Search is the improved German-cruiser version. This comes with two charges base, a 120s active period (as opposed to 100s for most cruisers) and a 180s/120s reset timer. Her detection ranges are also improved: 4.0km for torpedoes (instead of 3.5km) and 6km for ships (instead of 5km) . Alternatively you can swap for Defensive AA Fire. This comes with two charges base with a 40s active period and a 120s/80s reset timer. This provides the usual 50% increase to sustained DPS and 300% increase to flak explosion damage. Finally, Mainz has a Catapult Fighter. This comes with two charges base with the fighters patrolling for 60s with a 135s/90s reset timer. She deploys a squadron of three planes. Upgrades This is all pretty standard fare for a cruiser. Start with Main Armaments Modification 1. There's a lot of choice in your second slot, but it's really a matter of being able to afford what's best: Get Hydroacoustic Search Modification 1 from the Armory. This will set you back 17,000 Coal . This will lock your consumable choice in, but it's a good choice. Heck, it's the best choice right now Defensive AA Fire just isn't what it used to be and increasing Mainz's Hydroacoustic Search run time from 120s to 144s is wonderful. If you can't (or won't) take the hydro-mod, then you have the choice between Engine Room Protection and Damage Control System Modification 1. Neither are going to rock your socks, with the former taking a bit of strain off your Damage Control Party (not that it's especially taxed) and the latter providing a bit of damage-over-time mitigation. Aiming Systems Modification 1 is really the only upgrade worth considering in slot three, I'm sorry to say. For slot four, you're making a choice between two different play styles. If you're intending to make use of island cover, then Propulsion Modification 1 (that rename is throwing me off) is your best bet to give that all important improved acceleration from a dead stop to better duck in and out of cover. If you're more intent on firing from open water, then grab Steering Gears Modification 1 (ugh, rename) instead to reduce her rudder shift time. There's a similar choice to be presented in slot five. Concealment System Modification 1 is still too good to pass up. Increased stealth and increased dispersion from enemy fire? Yeah, it's hard to say no. Even for a thunderchunking tuba-soloist like Mainz, this is still a good investment. If you're feeling brave and want to double-down on that open-water firing, then you can opt for Steering Gears Modification 2 (ugh, rename!). Commander Skills Mainz doesn't require a deep skill build in order to make her effective. This means she's far more forgiving of a captain trainer than many other premiums out there. This makes her an ideal ship for leveling up the captains of your heavy cruisers and battleships. I've circled what are arguably the most effective skills for Mainz in this graphic though your own mileage may vary. For your first 10pts, I would go with Priority Target (1pt), Adrenaline Rush (2pts), Demolition Expert (3pts) and Concealment Expert (4pts), but you have some wiggle room here and there. The only real "must haves" in my opinion are Adrenaline Rush, Demolition Expert and some kind of skill to provide warning of incoming fire, be it Priority Target or Incoming Fire Alert, based upon your preferences. Camouflage Mainz comes with Type 10 Camouflage, providing the usual bonuses: A 3% reduction in surface detection ranges. A 4% increase to the dispersion of enemy gunfire. A 10% reduction to post-battle service costs. A 50% increase to experience earned. Alternative camouflage not found. Firepower Main Battery: Twelve 150mm L/60 guns in 4x3 turrets in an A-B-X-Y superfiring configuration. Secondary Battery: Twelve 105mm L/65 guns in 6x2 turrets with three turrets per side. Torpedoes: 4x4 launchers with two per side straddling the fore and aft superstructures. Mainz's main battery guns are hella awesome. They're the same 150mm/L65 guns found on Nurnberg and Mainz boasts twelve of them. They have three primary strengths which makes them so competitive: They are long ranged. They have an excellent rate of fire. They have phenomenal HE base penetration values. Range Shell flight times for the tier VIII Light Cruisers. Mainz's ballistics are comparable to Mogami 155mm which isn't terrible. Let's start with the simplest element to grasp: Mainz's range. Her 17.5km reach is very comfortable, above the 16.6km average for cruisers of her tier. Range keeps cruisers alive -- it allows them to stand off further away and thus gives them more time to respond to threats and make better use of what concealment they have. To Mainz's benefit, her ballistics allow her to capitalize on said range, with reasonably comfortable gunnery up to about 15km. At the extremes of her range, she has as much as a 12.5s lead time which largely precludes her from bombarding all but the most predictably moving vessels. Still, Mainz won't be lacking for targets like this in higher tiered matches. Furthemore, at these longer ranges, her gun arcs allow her to better capitalize on island cover which will also help keep her alive. Rate of Fire That's a lotta damage. Mainz's targets better have Flex Seal™ on hand. Mainz's guns reload in six seconds; that's hella fast. Mainz easily keeps up with the other light-cruisers in terms of fire setting and damage output, even with her anemic HE shells. When opportunities present themselves for her to make use of her AP rounds, she can really punch hard. These changes aren't commonplace but capitalizing upon them makes all of the difference. But it's Mainz's HE shells that are the real superstars thanks to the changes from patch 0.9.2. I had it in my head that Mainz's AP penetration was terrible, but it's reasonably comparable to everything that's not Soviet. The big thing to keep in mind is that Mainz doesn't have any improved auto-ricochet angles, so you're only really going to get to make use of her AP when you've got some reasonably flat surfaces to shoot at. You can pull this off, even at range, provided you aim for the squishy bits. Penetration values are approximate (like, really approximate) and drawn from proships.ru. Increased HE Penetration Not a whole lot changed for Mainz during testing. It's unfortunate, but she brushes with greatness -- with IFHE she's not quite able to reach the necessary 50mm worth of penetration to make her HE shells the scourge of any Soviet battleship she might face. It's worth keeping in mind that Mainz is capable of doing now what Bayard did previously. Right out of the box, Mainz has 38mm worth of HE penetration. This is enough to directly damage the structural armour (bow/stern) of any ship she comes across. In addition, it allows her to penetrate the upper hull and decks of tier VIII+ American battleships. But there's more to it than that. Mainz doesn't have to choose between direct damage and setting fires. Most other light cruisers are shackled to using Inertial Fuse for HE Shells in order to get similar levels of penetration. Furthermore, taking this skill cuts their fire setting chance in half, forcing them to choose their style of play. Mainz, on the other hand, gets it all. What's more, she gets it for free. The significance of this can't be understated. Mainz keeps old-timey, pre-0.9.2 light-cruiser fire setting capabilities and damage output, all in one. In practice, this makes her one of the better potential damage dealers out there while simultaneously not requiring a deep commander skill-build in order to be at her most effective. In short: Mainz spits out a lot of shells, over long range and most of what those shells will hit will take damage from them and be set ablaze. Because Mainz isn't slaved to the IFHE skill, she's likely to set more fires than other tier VIII light cruisers without compromising her direct damage with HE. She might not rival the raw fire setting potential of ships like Bayard and the Clevelands, but they're likely to slash their fire setting in half in order to gain the ability to hammer battleships directly with their HE spam, giving Mainz the lead. The Party Pooper You have to expose a lot of broadside to bring all of Mainz's guns on target, especially when she's kiting away. Mainz doesn't have everything going her way. First and foremost, her hull is less than ideal. I'll get into more of that in the later sections, but you'll see what I mean. Sticking to just firepower elements, Mainz has poor gunnery fire arcs and modest-to-slow gun traverse. In short, her gun-handling kinda sucks. It's not on catastrophic Vanguard-levels of restricted fire lanes nor Queen Elizabeth sluggish gun-traverse, but neither element is ideal, so I think it worth mentioning. Furthermore, though her torpedo armament is heavy, her reload times fast and their fire arcs good, at a mere 6km range they are hard to use. They're nothing more than weapons of desperation. You're only going to make effective use of them when your opponent screws up. Her individual fish don't hit especially hard either, so you'll need multiple hits to put anything down. Neither of these would make me damn the armament had they been mounted on a ship capable of surviving in brawling ranges outside of co-op but this isn't that ship. Those are some pretty scrumptious fire arcs. Summary Mainz's guns are amazing. Effectively she gets Inertial Fuse for HE Shells for free without having to pay the price for reduced fire setting. Her gun handling and the ship upon which the guns are mounted are less than ideal. They're not terrible, but these are great guns mounted on a meh hull. Mainz's torpedoes are too short ranged to use outside of brawling situations, which she is not built for. Verdict: The guns sell this ship. Seriously, this is the high water mark. If they haven't wowed you, stay away. Defense Hit Points: 42,500 Bow & stern/superstructure/upper-hull/deck: 25mm/13mm/25mm/27mm Maximum Citadel Protection: 25mm outer hull + 80mm belt + 40mm turtleback Torpedo Damage Reduction: 22% Sorry, gang. She gets a light cruiser's armour profile -- not the one found on Prinz Eugen and Admiral Hipper which transforms all of those external 25mm plates to 27mm. Note that Mainz has an Admiral Hipper-style extended waterline belt and not the shortened version like Prinz Eugen. So that's nice. I had very high hopes for Mainz's defenses but she disappoints me. Let me preface this inevitable gripe-fest by saying that her defense is completely acceptable for a tier VIII light cruiser. In fact, she's the best protected tier VIII light cruiser, bar none -- that's even accounting for Edinburgh's portable dry-dock Repair Party. She has good citadel protection with effectively 145mm worth of armour at various angles to keep AP shells out of her machine spaces & magazines. The flatter the AP trajectory, the more effective Mainz's citadel protection becomes. She combines this with good anti-torpedo defenses and a reasonable chunk of hit points. Let me make this clear before I go off on a tangent: Mainz's defense is perfectly acceptable for a light cruiser and has some obvious good points. Got it? Good. Now let me get my rant on: Wargaming missed an obvious opportunity to give Mainz German Heavy Cruiser structural armour. With the Inertial Fuse for HE Shells rework with patch 0.9.2, Wargaming adopted a series of standardized armour values for cruisers. One of the effects of this was to subtly differentiate heavy cruisers from light cruisers, giving the former overall slightly better protection. This is especially pronounced in tier VIII+ German and American heavy cruisers who enjoy the vaunted 27mm bow and stern armour sections. This allows them the chance, when properly angled, to auto-ricochet 381mm AP shells that are so commonplace within their matchmaking. This 27mm armour threshold allows these cruisers to make the occasional bold play against select battleship opponents, engaging in close-range brawls and clinching key encounters. Mainz obviously missed out on this or I wouldn't be whining like a destroyer that just got cuddled 2 minutes into a match by a Midway. Had she been given the same treatment as the other Admiral Hipper-class cruisers, the entirety of her outer hull (less her superstructure) would have enjoyed a homogeneous 27mm armour thickness. While this doesn't guarantee ricochets, it does open up the door for some very interesting possibilities. Brawling possibilities. And I love brawling. With only her amidships deck reaching 27mm, Mainz feels very soft-skinned -- not only against battleship AP shells but also against destroyer-caliber HE shells. While it would have broken with the armour standards set with patch 0.9.2, I think it would have been an easy quirk to differentiate Mainz and make her appeal to expert players. Her lack of a Repair Party coupled with her enormous surface detection range and low top speed were always going to be liabilities that reigned her in. During my playtesting of Mainz, I kept getting surprised that she didn't have the same armour profile as Prinz Eugen and Admiral Hipper -- it seemed like such a natural fit. I'm very sorry to see this potential gimmick didn't make the cut. I just wanted to drive myself closer and hit things with my sword. At 42,500hp, Mainz has just as much HP as Cheshire but without access to a heal or heavy cruiser exterior armour plate. Rule Britiannia! Mainz has a heavy cruiser's health pool and citadel protection but a light cruiser's structural plate. Verdict: Pretty good for a tier VIII light cruiser, which unfortunately means it's terrible when you consider its overall effectiveness. The best you can hope for is to troll some AP fire that tries to citadel you, but that's really it. Agility Top Speed: 32.0kts Turning Radius: 720m Rudder Shift Time: 10.5s 4/4 Engine Speed Rate of Turn: 5.5º/s There's really nothing but bad news here. It's not tragic news, mind you. Mainz is slow and most of her problems stem from this lack of speed. 32 knots is downright pedestrian for a high-tier cruiser and it has a trickle down effect. Because of this low top speed, her rate of turn suffers. Similarly, there's not as much variance in her forward momentum when she adjusts her throttle settings, making it harder (but not impossible) to dodge incoming fire with extreme-ultra-super-late-braking. Her rudder shift time is slow too, so that adds to the difficulties of dodging. Thankfully she has a decent main battery gun range, so at least she can use that to assist with avoiding incoming fire. Similarly, her Hydroacoustic Search should trivialize avoiding most torpedo salvos, providing ample warning. Given her love of island-camping, Propulsion Modification 2 is highly recommended to provide more grunt to her engines from a dead stop. This will facilitate making best use of the islands as well as dodging incoming attacks when targeted by guns or fish. Mainz wins no prizes here. She does not have a high top speed. She does not have a good rudder shift time. Her turning circle radius is only average and her rate of turn is generally slow. Boooooo. Mainz scores on the average-to-poor side of things for agility. All of her problems stem from her 32 knot top speed. Verdict: Mainz is too slow to be effective here. Anti-Aircraft Defense Flak Bursts: 6 explosions for 1,400 damage per blast Long Ranged (up to 5.2km): 119dps at 90% accuracy Medium Ranged (up to 3.5km): 319dps at 90% accuracy Short Ranged (up to 2.0km): 147dps at 85% accuracy It's simultaneously awesome and infuriating that Mainz's AA power is so good. On the one hand, she has some of the best AA at her tier, which is really saying something. On the other hand, AA mechanics are terrible, clunky and boring, which is really saying something else. Mainz's AA defense is comparable to that of Baltimore, barring the disparity of range on her long range batteries. She easily dominates both Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen in terms of AA defense. The flip side of this is that it means almost nothing. While Mainz is capable of making attacks against herself costly to same and lower-tiered carriers, only a damn fool would think her immune to CV predation. Even with her formidable defenses, the best you can hope is that Mainz appears to be a less appealing target than other ships on your team. Good luck with that. It's for this reason that I don't recommend using Defensive AA Fire. It simply doesn't matter. Mainz's Catapult Fighter serves as warning enough for enemy CVs that coming near will be expensive and that should suffice to keep them away, at least on the short term. With apologies to the colour blind. This graph is the most time-consuming and least-effective at communicating data of all of the graphics I've made for this review. I'm still trying to figure out how to illustrate range and firepower more clearly. I have some ideas but I don't want to spend a day just working on it, especially for a system that really doesn't amount to much in the current meta. Oh well, at least the colours are pretty. I've stacked these ships in order of "effective AA firepower" -- namely an arbitrary way of weighting longer-ranged firepower as being more valuable than shorter-ranged AA. This graph doesn't take Defensive AA fire into account, nor AA gun accuracy or explosion damage. Still, with all of that said, Mainz's AA firepower is hella respectable. Would that this meant anything... Verdict: Bloody respectable for as much as that's worth. Refrigerator Base/Minimum Surface Detection: 15.3km/12.02km Base/Minimum Air Detection Range: 7.5km/6.08km Detection Range When Firing in Smoke: 8.41km Main Battery Firing Range: 17.52km Let's recap: Mainz's guns are great. Her torpedoes are meh but at least she gets a lot of them and they reload quickly. If you can get in close, you can really ruin someone's day. Her protection scheme has some trollish parts to her citadel defense. She's otherwise pretty squishy, so good luck with using those aforementioned fish. She's slow and that hurts her overall agility. Her AA power is pretty damn good but that doesn't matter. So we have a soft, slow but reasonably hard hitting cruiser on our hands. The final question is: Can Mainz fight effectively in open water? If she silences her guns, can she sneak into positions to make best use of her guns, torpedoes and cover? The answer is: very no. Mainz's surface detection is horrible -- it's actually the worst among the cruisers at tier VIII currently. It's still ahead of most of the battleships at tier VIII, so that's something, I guess, though Roma can sneak up on you. Still, her surface detection isn't doing the ship any favours and it largely limits her play-style to island humping if she wants to be effective. If she's not hugging an island, Mainz has to stay way at the back so that her modest wiggle gives her even a chance at dodging potential battleship attention. Even then, during playtesting I was loathe to chance it. She's just too sluggish to dodge effectively. It was only against the most novice battleship or heavy cruiser gunnery that I felt Mainz stood a chance of throwing off their aim. The only redeeming factor Mainz is her German Hydroacoustic Search. Sadly, this has less value on Mainz than it does on other German cruisers. She doesn't have the concealment or the armour profile to risk being up on the front lines. You'll have to leave sniffing out destroyers to other ships if there's any enemy support even vaguely present. Verdict: Hella poor. Her Hydroacoustic Searchi is really good, but the opportunities to use it offensively are limited to your opponents being really stupid or just-plain blind. Final Evaluation Remember how much of a fuss was made over Bayard's firepower when she was released back in July of 2019? Mainz is on that level and, what's more, she survived patch 0.9.2 intact. That can't be said about any other light cruiser short of Mogami 155mm. Now this doesn't make Mainz "the new Bayard" -- not by a long shot. Frankly, there's a lot about Mainz that sucks. My bias is to nay-say her agility most of all; that's certainly the area where she differs most from the French demon. I'm still pretty miffed by her armour profile. Without armour, speed is king and Mainz just doesn't have it. Troll citadel protection at point blank range is nice and all, but it's so seldom going to come into play -- not when everything else thrown at her can penetrate (HE) or overmatch (large caliber AP). I don't have anywhere near the confidence in Mainz's ability to dodge in open water as I did with faster ships. The challenge with Mainz comes down to keeping her in the game long enough to make the theoretical potential of her weapons count. I don't feel that this is something many players will find easy in Random or more competitive battles, though it's dirt-simple in PVE modes. Veterans of Light Cruisers, particularly American ones, will have a better time of it -- just pull up your laundry list of workable islands and go from there. More power to you if you can wiggle and dodge to make open water play viable -- it wasn't something I had success with but maybe others can pull it off. Again, in theory, if you can make this work her potential jumps up tremendously and she'll rival what Bayard was one capable of performing. I honestly hope I'm making mountains out of molehills in regards to Mainz's drawbacks. I want this ship to be good and better than I perceive her currently. That's probably blinding me to the overall potential of this vessel. So take what I've said with a big ol' heaping tablespoon of salt. This is dseehafer's ship and I want it to be a good one. Conclusion March can suck it. World of Warships wise, my first couple of weeks was dominated by finishing London and prepping Cheshire. When patch 0.9.2 dropped and Cheshire was sidelined. All of my focus shifted to answering questions about IFHE. Then Wargaming announced to us Community Contributors that Mainz would be releasing April 1st and Cheshire's review again was pushed back in order to try and get this review out in a timely manner. This was annoying because that review is almost finished. Wargaming has changed the focus of the Community Contributor program away from providing previews of in-development ships and towards vessels as they're released. I'm shifting priorities to try and keep up immediately with the release schedule like I did in years previous. It's going to force a few changes in my review backlog, but hopefully it will ensure that going forward, anything new that comes out will have an article out almost as soon as they're released. That is, of course, barring the challenges of self-isolation. Please look after yourselves and your loved ones. Listen to medical professionals and do what they recommend as much as you can. May April be safe and uneventful, pun 100% intended.
  11. iamtheintrepidmouse

    Irian vs. Mainz -- Which to buy?

    So what's the difference between these two premium ships? Both look like Tier VIII CL shooty boats with torps. Both in the shop are around $45 (at the time of this writing). Which one would you buy and why?
  12. metalhualer5165

    German carriers will they be added

    Wargaming are you planning on adding German carriers to WoWs in a line or a premium ship. If anyone else thinks that German carriers may be a good idea to add this ship class to the German tech tree in a premium or a line let's talk about it. I think that adding German CVs will add more diversity to WoWs in gameplay and choices of every player in the game.
  13. HeavenlyWind_

    WarGaming...

    Dear WarGaming, STOP NERFING THE GERMAN SHIPS!! Thank you.
  14. Why does WG not place the Kaiserliche Marine flag ??? What's wrong with that ??? It is okay that the Nazi flag is censored, but the German imperial flag is not. It is also part of the history of history, it is not fiction, like the ARP. Kaiserliche Marine flags should be used by WW1 ships such as Dresden, Emden, Nassau, Kaiser (Hull A) Konig (Hull A) Konig Albert, Prince Eitel, Karlsruhe, Kolber, (V25, G101, V170 destroyers). even WG should make a collection of the Kaiserliche Marine, In this way we learn from the uniforms that you dressed the German sailors, their ships, their ports, their distinctive medals. that's learning from history.
  15. It would be great to have another German BB line buff along the lines of fire resistance. German BBs are effective when up close but it's hard to push up with confidence when HE spam is setting you ablaze every 5 seconds. Or maybe this could open up the possibility of a German-exclusive consumable which makes you resistant to HE fire for a period of time. Thoughts?
  16. Heyo, wall of text alert, enjoy the read, I've been wanting to get this off my chest for some time now. There's a WG stream going on as I write this, in which a buff to the German Tier X Cruiser Hindenburg was announced (also includes Roon, same buff btw). The buff in question was stated to be a decrease in reload from 11 seconds to 10.5 seconds. Now, let me start this by saying that I find it good that WG is finally getting around to buffing Hindenburg. The game has not been kind to her ever since her initial nerf where the reload was increased from 10 to 11 seconds. To list a few things that happened, we saw the large wave of buffs to numerous T10s which raised the average performance of the T10 ship, whereas Hindenburg around that time got nerfed. Republique saw more widespread use, for those of you unaware, Republique is one of the most terrifying ships to face in Hindenburg, more on that later. And last one worthy of mention are the Legendary Upgrades, where Hindenburg got a rather mediocre one, again more on that later. So, does this buff to her dpm finally solve the issues she has? In my eyes, no, it doesn't. It doesn't even touch her main issue, and that of the German T8-10 Cruisers. While the dpm was no longer what it used to be, it's still usable. Her AP hits just as hard provided it penetrates, the HE still penetrates the 50mm plating. She was never a dpm machine, more of an opportunist that would seek AP opportunities whenever possible. Same unfortunately also applies to her buff some time ago, where she gained an extra heal charge. A fifth Repair Party charge is a situational tool, only being of any use when four heals have been used and the fifth one gets activated. If this does not happen in a match, then this buff did not show any effect in said match. What is Hindenburg's main issue? It's a feature of her that got powercrept. For those that have been around for some time, the term “Battleship Hindenburg” should not be uncommon. This reputation was gained for a few reasons. For one the turtleback armor which allowed her to pull some ridiculous moves in brawls, and then most importantly the 30mm midship section which allowed her to bounce all AP shells but the ones fired by Yamato, Musashi and 457mm Conqueror (which no one used, that didn't change). So basically, angle well and you can absorb a lot of damage. She still has those 30mm armor. But unfortunately for her there are plenty of ships that have been released since then, and more in the pipeline. Republique being chief among them. Why her? Because she amplifies the problems that Hindenburg has. Hindy's sluggish handling is nothing new, so any Republique with two baguettes to rub together (lewd) will not struggle to land shells, and when they land, they hurt. And there is no way for Hindenburg to counter this threat at all. Angling doesn't work, the concealment is mediocre, so are her dodging abilities. What remains is literally running away and trying to slowly wear the Republique down while 10k damage salvos will return to you every 20something seconds. So in short, 30mm is no longer worth what it once was, and Hindenburg is among the ones that is hit the most by this slow process. What remains is the turtleback, but I shouldn't have to explain how passive the meta especially on NA is. Anyone hoping to capitalize on the turtleback on a regular basis will be left disappointed. Is this an unsolvable issue? No. It can be fixed relatively easily, and WG already set the foundation for this some time ago when announcing possible upcoming changes to the midship plating of cruisers. Exactly the issue Hindenburg has, midship plating. Since then this idea has been surrounded by silence from WG's end, though I spent time on thinking about what possibilities there are for Hindenburg. Since this would be a significant buff to Hindenburg's survivability, it should not surprise that there has to be something in exchange that Hindenburg will sacrifice. For this the most suitable thing would be the third (or fifth if maxed out) Repair Party charge. So while Hindenburg gains the ability to avoid more damage, she pays by being able to recover less damage. A good trade-off. As clarification, these values would only affect the midship section, meaning central upper deck and upper belt. Bow and stern remain untouched. 31mm: An unconventional value for sure. This mainly excludes overmatching from Republique's 431mm guns. 32mm: Widely known value. No overmatch from guns up until 457mm, and German 128mm Secondaries lose the ability to penetrate the armor without the IFHE-skill 33mm: Again unconventional, but this one does a whole lot more. No AP overmatch at all (like Moskva/Stalingrad), Japanese 100mm+IFHE and up to 152mm+IFHE will no longer penetrate the midship section. Heavy Cruisers remain completely unaffected. 34mm: 203mm HE and 155mm+IFHE no longer penetrate the midship. I do not want to say “Option X is the best, because I know for sure”. I don't know for sure what would be the most balanced option. Hence why I listed them all. For one they provide food for thought, and secondly it would be more logical if WG tested Hindenburg with these values to determine which one is the most balanced one. As a final word, or sort of, how does this transfer to Admiral Hipper and Roon? They have similar issues, and Roon is evidently in need of buffs as well while Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen are at least indicated to be rather poor, given the server stats we can access. This concept should thus be applied to them as well, and the question arises how much the midship armor could be. 28mm: Doesn't change anything of significance. No really. 29mm: 413mm and below will bounce, however GK's 420mm shells and anything larger will slice through like a hot knife through butter. Want to make the 420mm guns have some sort of overmatch advantage, this is how you do that. 30mm: Same old, no overmatch from less than 431mm, 180mm HE shatters Different values can be applied for different tiers, obviously. But is an improved miship section desirable? Personally I shall say, most certainly. The beautiful thing about midship sections in that armor range is that they do not affect your gameplay unless you captalize on them. Show broadside and it'll do nothing. Sit nose in and again it won't do you any good. Only when being properly angled and when keeping the surroundings in check will this pay off. In other words, midship armor can be a skill-based option to migitate incoming AP fire. I say very much yes to this. Cheers~
  17. So, I saw the WIP premium cruiser Siegfried, and I was thinking, it looks a lot like the Fredrick Der Große. Is this perhaps a coincidence, is this intentional, or is there no connection between the two whatsoever? To me, it is kind of similar to the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau in game. What I mean is, The Scharnhorst is somewhat lesser than the Gneisenau, while at the same time being a really good ship on its own. It is somewhat lesser than the Gneisenau because it has smaller guns, and having a harder time dealing with battleships. But it is better than the Gneisenau in the fact that it has more guns, better HE shells, and a shorter reload time. I don’t know how to compare the FDG to the Siegfried, but I am sure that there are some comparisons. One that I can immediately think of, is how the FDG is a battleship with more guns, while the Siegfried is a Cruiser with smaller guns. The FDG and the Siegfried also look similar. IDK about else, but the Siegfried looks like what I’d imagine the FDG would look like if it was a cruiser. Does anyone else share similar thoughts? Does anyone else’s opinions differ from mine? Does my opinion make sense? Please let me know what you think! Feel free to share you opinion!
  18. HeavenlyWind_

    German T10 Premiums

    When are we gonna see some German T10 premiums? Seeing how they are the only main nation in the game without T10 premiums. German T10 prem H-class BB with 457mm guns? (or maybe even 480mm lol.) Lutzow?
  19. rooster_007

    What is the best cruiser line?

    I'm going the american heavy cruisers, american light cruisers, and german cruisers. I do have an Atago and I was wondering what other line I should go up. Any suggestions?
  20. I was attempting to put IFHE on my Bismarck to boost its secondaries, but the option was locked. Is it possible to put IFHE on the Bismarck and if so how?
  21. I was doing more research on the Bismarck, and I was taking a look at the swastikas on the deck of the Bismarck, and I was wondering, how were they put on the decks? Were they painted? Were the teak boards dyed? Were the swastikas made with metal sheets that were colored or dyed? If someone could answer my question(s), I’d really appreciate it!
  22. Its probably best if you just glance over the Underlined and bold parts. Its quite long. Plz reply and share your experiences. Hi everybody! I have been looking around at other forums and have thought that It would be a good idea to have one, big, main forum where everybody can voice their opinions (i.e. rage and complain) about the recent carrier rework. I have been getting several different opinions about what the carrier rework and hotfix has done to our warships. I have been looking around to see what kind of different opinions we have been getting about the carrier rework. From what I have currently seen, the most trouble has come from destroyers. The complaint is that aircraft spotting is too good, and that they are permaspotted and shelled by everything in the vicinity. The same can be said about scout cruisers, which lack the AA defense to repel concentrated air attack, and who cannot output enough damage to repel the hail of fire that the rest of the battle fleet will throw at it. This also does not allow it to spot other targets, voiding its purpose. Light and Heavy cruisers can output a substantial amount of AA firepower, but only the most powerful light cruisers and the most AA oriented heavy cruisers to repel a concentrated air attack. Under constant attack from my fully maxed Lexington, only the enemy Atlanta, AA spec Cleveland, a new Orleans with defensive AA fire, and a trio of battleships pooling their AA could prevent themselves from being decimated by my aircraft (even the AA ships still took minor damage from the remains of my squadrons). Light cruisers that shoot from behind islands are immobile, and vulnerable to attack from bombers and torpedo planes. Heavy cruisers, especially those with an AA focus, are the only ships capable of repelling constant attack by same tier carriers without major damage. Most battleships, with the exception of high tier American ones, generally have crap or mediocre AA, and need an escort or a division to pool their AA. However, concealment isn't really that important, and all BBs can take a hit, so other than being unable to dodge torpedoes, they did OK. The main consensus is that CV's are not that fun to play against. On top of that, It is hard to repel air attack, and being permanently spotted is deadly for most light cruisers and destroyers. I have also heard complaints from the aircraft carrier community. The US Cv community, complains that dive bombers require too much RNG and that the torpedoes don't do enough alpha. The IJN community is having trouble with AP bombs and the bomb sights, which are accurate but hard to use. The british CV line is still going through buffs and nerf at an alarming rate. Right now (2 patches from now this could have changed entirely) the british CV community complains that the short arming distance torpedoes are carried by aircraft that lack the health and speed to reach their target, and the bombing runs are rather flat and sort of have a forward rather than a mostly down trajectory. On top of that, all Cv's are having trouble doing reliable damage to ships. For example, American CV's struggle to inflict damage with bombs to well armored battleships, whose deck they fail to penetrate, and maneuvering cruisers, which they lack the accuracy to hit. Many Cv's complain that other ships do damage and earn credits farming damage off of cruisers and destroyers that they spot, while the CV hemorrhages aircraft trying to get damage done and the cruisers and destroyers rage over being spotted and focused down by the rest of the enemy ships. In conclusion, I believe that carrier spotting mechanics are a death sentence for any ships that rely on concealment. I also believe that Carriers fail to do much damage due to the fact that their planes, while fast, have too little health or maneuverability. Also, Carriers don't like being up-tiered. I look forward to your opinions and ideas about how to fix the carrier. Please PLZ! comment below. Photo gallery:
  23. So any guesses? Obviously a super cruiser right (TIX/TX). Maybe the O-Class? If it is an O, IDK how I feel about a Super Cruiser able to overmatch MOST cruisers at tier, even with just 6 guns. Could be a D or P class, but those would be too undergunned for high tiers and odd at mid tiers. Update: It's a T9 O-Class: German cruiser Siegfried, tier IX Siegfried has a very large caliber even within the range of other large cruisers — 380 mm. Despite the fact that the ship has only 6 guns, it is more than enough considering their accuracy, which is an unusual trait for large cruisers. In addition to that, this German Vessel is equipped with a special Hydroacoustic search, increased penetration HE shells and good armor capable of “tanking” enemy shells. Hit points — 62850. Plating — 27 mm. Main battery — 3x2 380 mm. Firing range — 20.6 km. Maximum HE shell damage — 4400. Chance to cause fire — 34%. Maximum AP shell damage — 11600. Reload time — 26.0 s. 180 degree turn time — 36.0 s. Maximum dispersion — 175 м. HE initial velocity — 820 m/s. AP initial velocity — 820 m/s. Sigma — 2.05. Torpedo tubes — 2x4 533 mm. Maximum damage — 13700. Range — 8.0 km. Speed — 65 kt. Reload time — 90 s. Launcher 180 degree turn time — 7.2 s. Torpedo detectability — 1.3 km. Secondary Armament: 7x2 128 mm. AA defense: 7x2 128.0 mm. 12x4 20.0 mm. 8x2 55.0 mm. AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second — 343, hit probability — 83 %, action zone 0.1–1.5 km; AA defense mid-range: number of explosions in a salvo — 9, damage within an explosion — 1190, continuous damage per second — 569, hit probability — 88 %, action zone 1.5–4.0 km; AA defense long-range: number of explosions in a salvo — 5, damage within an explosion — 1540, continuous damage per second — 150, hit probability — 88 %, action zone 4.0–6.0 km; AA sector reinforcement — 25%, sector reinforcement time — 10 s, sector reinforcement shift time — 10 s. Maximum speed — 33.5 kt. Turning circle radius — 880 m. Rudder shift time — 14.0 s. Surface detectability — 15.1 km. Air detectability — 10.7 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke — 13.8 km. Available consumables: 1 slot — Damage Control Party. 2 slot — Hydroacoustic Search (action time: 120 s, detection of ships: 6 км, detection of torpedoes: 4 km) / Defensive AA fire. 3 slot — Fighter / Spotting Aircraft. 4 slot — Repair Party. All stats are listed without crew and upgrade modifiers. The stats are subject to change during testing.
  24. I have a Captain with 10 points that I'm using for the German cruiser line. Currently on the tier 4 Karlsruhe. I'm new at this. I started with Priority Target and Expert Marksman. I was going to do Superintendent 3rd but there is a line through it with the message "the skill is inefficient with the ship's selected configuration". Most skills I've seen for the German cruisers use SI for the 3rd skill. Should I just ignore that message and continue with SI? Also, was thinking CE for my 4th skill. Please let me know if you have other suggestions to consider. Thanks
  25. I just started grinding the German BB line the other night as something different (I play mostly IJN CA's) and have been reading up on what people take as commander skills, but a lot of it seems outdated. Any recommendations for the current meta?
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