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Well, those of us that have love her..despite her faults... I'm gonna summon @Sventex since he has more games in her, and has posted videos on her. Now, she does many things well, and I have had some killer games in her. If you are top Tier, you can pass out the pain: BUT since I've gotten her, lots of other ships have been added to the game. The Mutsu, all the RN BBs, and now her French cousins... The meta has changed a ton to I think, so is it time for a wee buff? My thoughts, and ideas: Armor: Yeah, I know she is a battlecruiser, not a true BB. Great, but getting overmatched by all the red BBs suck. Yes, you can kite, use cover etc, but that only goes so far. Several people have brought up the fact that the Stasbourg had better side armor..which would help, but if you get get broadside to a red BB, you get what you get... What about her nose? They did it for the Moskva....this would reward captains that angle to the bigger gunned BBs, and not get citadeled right through yer nose... Another idea would be spaced armor like the CAs...that would help with all the HE damage. Yeah, I know more work...but that would help I think... AA: Of all the times I had a bad game in her, I think a CV has been behind it about 50% of the time. Everyone and their mom knows her AA sucks, and you get used as a punching bag for planes. Not fun. Fictional refit in the USA? Loose a couple secondary turrets for more AA guns? Maneuverability: She has good speed as is...but what about speed boost? It would help you get out of trouble if you bite off more than you can chew... (I do this a ton, LOL) Guns: Sometimes, you seem to be slinging citadels left and right, then next salvo goes haywire. Now, I know they are not gonna buff her sigma... BUT what about the reload booster that her big sister is gonna get? If that not, a ROF buff? Nothing crazy, but with the smaller guns and "special" sigma, maybe this is needed? Stealth: It sucks, LOL. Now, I know they go by the height of her mast, etc, but again, this could be a fictional refit, and you wouldn't get out spotted by...everything other than the Fuso... Now, I'm not saying do all this...she would be OP AF. But maybe one of these? Thoughts?
Big_Spud posted a topic in General Game DiscussionA comprehensive suggestion for rebalancing my Donut, and fixing her armor model errors. WARNING: THIS IS LONG AND TEXT/IMAGE HEAVY Buckle in boys, this is going to be a long one. So the tier VI premium light battleship (or battlecruiser) Dunkerque has recently garnered a bit of attention in regards to the presumptive reload buff she is receiving according to recent Dev Blog updates. The Buff is as described below: Now, as a long time player of Dunkerque (Donut, Dunkek, etc...) I have to say that the fact that she is finally receiving some attention is most appreciated. To my knowledge, Dunkerque has never seen any direct buffs or nerfs throughout her two and a half year tenure in this game. Naturally, much has changed in the way of meta since August of 2016, which was when she was originally introduced. Overmatch has become prevalent with the introduction of several new premiums and battleship lines. IFHE has become extremely prevalent ( if not necessary ) among destroyers and light cruisers. Newer ships are faster, or more accurate, have more guns, better HP, overmatch, armor, etc… Even the fabled CV rework is about to hit live, combined with news of a change to the flooding mechanics ( flooding being split into two sectors which deal less HP than one current flooding. 30% forward speed decrease, 60% reverse speed decrease ). Simply put, the game has changed a lot just in general. Throughout all of this, Dunkerque has remained largely the same, and it is my opinion that she is among the ships which have suffered the most from powercreep. I consider this to be quite unfortunate. I was for a time, one of the staunchest defenders of Dunkerque at her release, and for quite some time after her. Her speed used to be quite unique, as well as her bow-mounted main battery of extremely high velocity and penetration 330 mm /52 Mle 1932 rifles in two quadruple turrets. This layout resulted in occasional good groupings, and the speed of her shells made it relatively to hit enemy cruisers and battleships from near the maximum edge of her 18.2 km range ( 21.8 with a spotting plane ). Her flexibility and relatively quick reload allowed her to exert influence across a greater than usual area of the map, especially when compared to slower vessels like New Mexico. This helped make up for her relative lack of strength in other areas, and there are many areas in which Dunkerque was deficient, even back in 2016. We’ll get into those in a second. To add a bit of credence to my love for this ship ( and reinforce the fact that I’m not a random baBBie complaining because “Beeg ship no crush small ship!” ), here are my current standings in her. Not the best on the server, but I’ve certainly managed to do quite well. Being top 5 in Dunkerque is something I’m a little proud of. Unfortunately, I have stopped playing her in the past few months. To put it quite simply: she’s simply not fun in her current state, nor up to task for dealing with the current meta. Now, I said earlier that I would go into the various strengths and weaknesses of Dunkerque. Hopefully what I identify here will help my case for some of the buffs I will be proposing later. Pros: -Speed. Despite the amount of time that has passed, Dunkerque is still among the fastest of the battleships at her tier. At 29.5 knots without speedflags, she is tied with Normandie, and 1.5 knots faster than the Prinz Eitel Friedrich. Her advantage over the other premium and non premium battleships ranges from between 3 to 8.5 knots. This speed is valuable at a tier where most others are operating in the 23-25 knot range ( some as low as 21 ), no question about that. -Penetration and Velocity. Dunkerque's relative low caliber of 330 mm is deceiving. Her performance against vertical plate is among the best at her tier, being matched by New Mexico's 14”/50 and surpassed completely only with the introduction of West Virginia and her 16” AP Mark 5 shell. As we can see from the sweep, penetration and velocity are among the factors which do not trouble Dunkerque. She can penetrate the belt of most same tier battleships out to nearly her maximum range. The velocity still lets you snipe cruisers with ease, but in this aspect she suffers from Roma Syndrome: you will see a lot of overpenetrations. -Rate of Fire. Dunkerque has a 28 ( proposed 26 ) second reload. It’s not fantastic, but it’s better than most of the ships in tier VI. Some ships like New Mexico and Arizona truly suffer from some terribly ungodly long reloads, so I'm counting my blessings where I can find them. And… I’m going to be honest here, the list of objective strengths ends there. Her concealment is bad, although not worst in tier ( thanks Fuso ). Her maneuverability is bad, but not worst in tier. Her AA and secondaries are bad, but again, not worst in tier. What is objectively the worst in tier however, is her armor. Here we go into the- Cons: -Armor/Protection. Immediately, Dunkerque falls flat on her face. She is simply coated in 25 mm plating all over her hull. She has no distributed armor scheme, meaning that she is the most vulnerable of all ships at her tier to overmatch and IFHE. Dunkerque fundamentally lacks the ability to act as a good tank, or really a tank at all. Should she come upon the likes of a Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Bayern, Mutsu, or West Virginia ( to say nothing of tier VII/VIII ), she is largely defenseless. Hits by those guns along her hull will always result in penetrations or overpenetrations for guaranteed damage. The same is true when being struck by 4-6” IFHE equipped light cruisers, or 7-8” armed heavy cruisers. Dunkerque's problems with protection don’t end here though. In addition to the poor extremity/hull plating, her belt and bulkheads are quite simply put, the worst in tier. Her belt is 225 mm with a 40 mm sloped deck and a 40-50 mm flat citadel bulkhead. This is incapable of protecting her citadel from battleship caliber shells at most ranges, and makes her particularly vulnerable at closer ranges. The forward citadel bulkhead is a flat 228 mm. Simply put, this cannot stop any shell which overmatches the 25 mm bow, at any range. We have already identified the ships just in tier VI which can and do accomplish this task. In addition to this fact, her turrets are vulnerable. Far from being poorly armored, the problem with Dunkerque's turrets are that they are stacked atop one another, and very wide. By the nature of her playstyle, these turrets take a lot of shells, and one or both are often destroyed. Each lost turret represents a net -50% decrease in firepower. Dunkerque has no special heal or any other advantage to make up for these extreme and pronounced vulnerabilities. My first con section is already three times the length of the entirety of the pros. -Torpedo Defense. To put it frankly, Dunkerque's torpedo damage reduction value is an insult. Coming in at a little over 7 meters in depth, the little battleship had what was universally considered to be one of the best torpedo defense systems ever put on a ship. The Richelieu had a narrower version of this design, and ingame receives a respectable ( albeit still rather low ) 35%. Dunkerque gets [edited] 25%. Why. With her armament and armor peculiarities heavily influencing her playstyle, she is incredibly vulnerable to torpedo attack. This low of a value is simply inexcusable from both a historical and gameplay perspective, and hurts her massively. -Main Battery/Offensive Power. On paper, Dunkerque's guns seem quite good. I’ve already detailed the great strength of her belt penetration and the advantages afforded by her high velocity. These strengths are more than ruined by their weaknesses. First and foremost, Dunkerque has 1.7 sigma. This in itself isn’t a death knell, but then the rest of the picture comes in. She has only eight guns. She can’t overmatch same tier battleship hulls. Her reload, although short, does not make up for the loss of four barrels when compared to the infinitely stronger Fuso, which shares the same rate of fire. Then comes her horrific vertical dispersion, and then the fact that she overpenetrates anything that’s not a battleship belt or unfortunately angled cruiser ( Roma Syndrome ). To say that Dunkerque's main battery performance is frustrating, would be a massive understatement. No part of it compliments the other enough to overcome the weaknesses inherent to the caliber and dispersion characteristics at this tier. Her 130 mm /45 secondary battery is also poor, although not quite terrible. The shells have a high individual fire chance and good damage, however they fall short on penetration with 21 mm base. The mounts are also positioned awkwardly, making them hard to use reliably. Although the quadruple turrets are well armored, the twins mounted forward are not. It is not worth speccing into these by any means. -Anti-Aircraft. Dunkerque's anti-aircraft firepower has been poor since release. Although the 3 x 4 and 2 x 2 130 mm mountings have decent range, they fall flat with their low damage numbers ( no information as of yet on how they perform with the CV rework ), throwing up a measly 54 DPS at 5.0 km. Mid range is essentially non-existent, five twin 37 mm guns yield 12 DPS at 3.0 km. Short range is very short, with 8 x 4 13.2 mm mountings yielding a combined 40 DPS at 1.4 km. Simply put, Dunkerque can add being incapable of defending herself effectively from aircraft to her long list of downsides, even with a full AA spec. -Detection. Although by no means the worst in tier, 16.4 with camo ( 14.1 with CE + camo ) is not great for a ship of her particular playstyle and vulnerability. She gets spotted early, and targeted by everyone for easy damage, with no real recourse to prevent such a thing from occurring. I could go even more in depth, but I think this identified most of the key issues which plague Dunkerque, and why I personally believe that she requires more help than just a 2 second reload buff. Recommended Improvements (not necessarily all at once, just general suggestions): -add 27 mm plating amidships over the side and weather deck. Already being plagued with the worst horizontal armor protection in her tier bracket, Dunkerque absolutely requires an improvement to her tanking capability. Increasing the protection amidships versus 381 mm guns essentially achieves the same results as the identical change made to some tier VIII cruisers. It allows her to mitigate some of the otherwise unavoidable damage from overmatch. Leaving the bow and stern sections 25 mm allows for damage to still be dealt, but requires a bit more thinking than simply “point and click for 10,000 damage”. -improve torpedo damage reduction to 35%. By her nature, Dunkerque spends a large part of any given battle with her bow towards the enemy, moving back and forth with the battle. This is largely a necessity forced by her poor armor, in addition to her armament layout precluding effective stern-kiting. This makes her extremely vulnerable to flanking attacks by destroyers, from which she has no real escape. Increasing torpedo damage reduction not only more correctly represents the strength of the real system, but also helps decrease her extreme vulnerability to all forms of damage. -increase sigma value from 1.7 to 1.9. To help offset her low barrel count and lack of overmatch ( combined with a propensity for overpenetrations and her huge vertical dispersion ), better hitting ability would help compliment her high velocity gunnery, allowing her to more reliably punish enemies who make mistakes, especially battleships. Sigma values are largely overrated, but they still do have an impact. -improve anti-air defense with the addition of the originally designed light AA complement of five 37 mm ACAD automatic mounts. Because of Dunkerque's more static reverse-advance playstyle, she makes an extremely enticing target to aircraft. Often she is simply unable to maneuver in time to avoid torpedoes, or attempt to evade dive bombers. This problem will only worsen with the carrier rework. This buff also has a degree of historical relevance. Dunkerque was originally supposed to be equipped not with the twin semi-automatic 37 mm Mle 1933 mountings, but with five of the twin automatic 37 mm Mle 1936 ACAD mountings. This little guy. Image taken from John Jordan & Robert Dumas’ “French Battleships: 1922-1956”. These mounts are already present ingame, four of them being mounted upon the heavy cruisers Algerie, Charles Martel, and the battleship Gascogne. The mounting has a base range of 3.5 km, and generates 12 DPS. Dunkerque was to be equipped with five such mountings, yielding 60 DPS ingame. This is quite literally a five fold increase over the current 12 DPS at 3.0 km. Given that the close and long range values are still quite low in damage or range, this won’t make her a floating AA castle. What it will do however, is provide her with some increase measure of self-defense. An AA spec might be viable with such a buff. -decrease base detection to 15 kilometers. This is self explanatory. As a light battleship meant to be flexing back and forth with the cruisers, a large base detection range makes her extremely vulnerable to being spotted early, and farmed for damage. A decrease of ~1 kilometer should help this slightly, and give her just a little bit more tactical flexibility. And thus ends my section on balance. Eleven god-damn pages of stuff that I shouldn’t have had to write, but did anyways out of love for Dunkerque. I want to see her be viable, fun, and rewarding of skill. WG’s proposed buff of -2s off the reload does not solve any of the fundamental issues present on her, so these are my suggestions. Please recall that I do not advocate for all of them being applied simultaneously, but I do feel that most of them could be without pushing the ship into being overpowered. Simply put: no matter what buffs I recommend, she will always be vulnerable to overmatch and IFHE spam. She will always have lackluster secondaries, and poor maneuverability. Her turrets will always be at risk of simply being destroyed, and she will always lack the ability to overmatch same tier battleships. Now, onto the more interesting part. ARMOR MODEL INACCURACIES, WOOHOO Ironically enough, while WG has seen fit to make Dunkerque suffering to play, they have actually overmodeled some sections of armor thickness. The errors are as follows: Armor deck is too thick. WG has modeled it as a uniform surface of 130 mm thickness. According to all known sources, Dunkerque has a main armor deck ( Pont Principal ) with two varying thicknesses over the machinery and magazines: 115 mm and 125 mm respectively. Machinery: Magazines: Images taken from John Jordan & Robert Dumas’ “French Battleships: 1922-1956”. Here’s how it looks ingame: Here’s how it should look: Fore and Aft Transverse Bulkheads are too thick. Paradoxically, WG decided to use the armor thicknesses from Dunkerque's uparmored sister ship, Strasbourg, when modeling her forward and aft transverse armored bulkheads. Ingame these are modeled as 228 mm and 198 mm respectively. Sources indicate that the fore bulkhead should instead be 210 mm, the aft bulkhead 180 mm. Fore: Aft: Images taken from John Jordan & Robert Dumas’ “French Battleships: 1922-1956”. Here’s how they look ingame: Ingame Fore: Ingame Aft: Here’s how they should look: Actual Fore: Actual Aft: Yes, I am in fact arguing for historical armor nerfs in the very same post where I call for buffs. Deal with it. Aaaaaaaaaaaand that’s all folks. As if it wasn’t long enough already. Stares at 21 page length in Word. I appreciate those of you who read through this and take the time to comment. Please for the love of god, DON’T QUOTE THE ENTIRE THING. I’ll be hovering over the comments area like an overly enthusiastic grade school soccer coach does his team, so feel free to ask any questions, discuss, whatever. Hopefully someone important will at least read this. Edit: No, I don't know why the Forum decided to center literally the entire thing. I can't undo it either. Edit 2: Whatever, it sort of fixed itself.
Even since a certain reviewer posted his "Dunkerque - How To Deal With T8 MM" video, I've been itching to point out the flaws. The Dunkerque is one of Flamu's least played ships and least favorite ships, and it show by how he offers advice that can even be considered dangerous. So let's go through Flamu's lessons one by one and deconstruct his video. "So of course, it's low caliber guns, umm, the damage is lower as well. - This is no damage monster" The Dunkerque is tied with the Fuso in having the fastest firing Battleship guns at tier 6. The ship also sports so incredibly potent HE shells with tremendous muzzle velocity allowing long range targets to be hit with reliability (even broadside destroyers), and the all forward gun design and fast turret traverse ensures that the RPM will rarely be interrupted. The guns only have low damage when you ram the ship into an island and are unable to target any ships like Flamu does here. "A common mistake that many Dunkerque captains make is they think it is a Yamato, they think it is a North Carolina, they think it is a ship capable of parking nose-in duking it out. Now the Dunkerque can't even do this against tier 6s." "So your not going to be tanking anything in this thing" Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque, to say the ship can't bow tank is a gross miscalculation. Bow tanking is one of Dunkerque's greatest assets and Flamu here is needlessly throwing that asset away. In the replay provided below, you can see that in a Tier 8 match, out of the 5 enemy Battleships, only one had the guns large enough to overmatch my Dunkerque's bow. For Flamu to think that the ship can't even tank at tier 6 is beyond belief. Even against shells that can overmatch, going bow-on presents a far smaller profile that will ensure fewer shells will hit you, which is in essence providing protection. Other Battleships will have to show some broadside in order to utilize their full firepower against you, offering a larger target and exposing all of the fire hardpoints of their ship. Also cruisers and destroyers often will have their shells shatter against the bow at close range, which is still tanking. "You'll notice I was angled, trying to eat it [15" shells] on my broadside armor" Flamu's tactic here is dubious as he tries to present a larger target to his enemy (a Tirpitz in brawling range no less) and he ends up taking heavy damage for it. You want the shells to miss entirely so charging in against a top tier German Battleship and angling was an extremely poor tactical decision. Don't let the enemy play to their strengths, the Dunkerque has the speed to avoid these situations. "One of the key points of this is keeping on the move. - How do you play it? You keep on the move. You have to keep on the move" "One of my main lessons when playing the Dunkerque is never stop in the open. Being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence" This is one of the most questionable lessons that Flamu gives in his video. The Dunkerque is a very large target with a vulnerable broadside, moving forward when bottom tier is offering the enemy a juicy target. What you want to do in the Dunkerque is manage the enemy player's target priority. If your sitting at long range, and the enemy Battleship has numerous ships at closer range shooting at it, it's going to prioritize them over you because they are a greater threat and offer more dps to them. If your needlessly zipping around broadside at long-mid range, your going to present the enemy with a juicy DPS opportunity, and if you just charge in against tier 8 ships, your going to be outflanked and overpowered. The Dunkerque's speed and mobility is best used in the end game, when most other ships are dead. The Dunkerque is extremely dangerous against 90% of ships (in tier 6-8 MM) because they are incapable of overmatching her bow, which makes the ship one of the best carry Premium Battleships in the game and probably excellent practice for the Richelieu. "It's better to ram into an island at full speed" "Amusingly, one of the strengths of the ship, which is having all gun on the forward part of the ship, is actually a bit of a weakness." This sounds like intentional user error. "The secondaries have very awkward angles, you need to give far too much broadside to be able to efficiently use them. The secondaries in general are not recommendable" The Dunkerque has in effect, 2 Gearings strapped to the back of the ship with twelve 5" guns that can be used without the need to show any broadside. It has been the mistake of many DD captains to try and attack a Dunkerque from behind, thinking that is the blind spot. Note in my replay, that against the Loyang that attempted to attack me from behind, ended up sacrificing himself against my secondary guns in exchange for a single torpedo hit, my forward main battery was not needed. "If you have the lowest AP damage, umm the lowest AP alpha, all of these things also having the same reload as the other ships, really isn't that much fun." Flamu throughout his video complains about the Dunkerque AP shells several times, but he only ever uses those AP shells for 97% of the match. He never connects the dots that maybe he shouldn't use AP, and he never discusses the power of the Dunkerque's HE shells in the entire video and end up throwing away another of the ship's greatest assets with it's high fire %. Another problem with the Dunkerque's AP shell is that the tremendous muzzle velocity gives the shells the nasty habit of over-penetrating on fully broadside targets. Reliability in damage comes from the Dunkerque's HE shells, even against enemy cruisers. The AP shells require the enemy cruisers and even some battleships to angle in order for their armor to "catch" the AP shells, which means only using AP for select situations. "I do run concealment expert on this ship, and that ability to disengage is so-so important on this ship" Flamu yoloed right into the enemy and was never in a position for his concealment expert skill to help him disengage, so he effectively wasted 4 points on his captain. The Dunkerque strength comes from it's ability to maintain maximum RPM from it's main battery, which would be wasting another asset of the ship by trying to conceal this ship that can be spotted from the Andromeda Galaxy. (credit to Nozoupforyou for that analogy) By the 6:30 mark of his video, he's already 10km away from an enemy Battleship, concealment expert is worthless when yoloing. "The Scharnhorst, I play it very similarly" This is where the biggest error in his match, twice in his showcase battle, Flamu goes and brawls with 2 separate Tirpitz. One of which actually kills him after he tells his team "Don't die, and we win". I cannot stress enough that the Dunkerque is not a German Battleship, it does not brawl well with other German Battleships. Do not play to the enemies strengths. The Dunkerque high velocity shells enable it to effectively target ships at long range, so it becomes important when bottom tier to not charge at the top tier Battleships. This is how to play the Dunkerque in T8 MM. Flamu's advice is to always keep moving, that "being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence", but note how I do not stray far from my spawn point in the first 10 minutes of the match. I operate out in the open, but I keep a healthy distance away from the enemy to ensure I am never outflanked. Anyone whose played a RN BB knows that HE is best employed at mid-range, and that it's important to manage the distance between you and the enemy fleet. Even at bottom tier, I'm causing considerable damage by sitting back while also disrupting the enemies attempt to take the caps and setting fires. It's only at the halfway point, where the team if outnumbered 6:3 and the caps are in danger that I put the Dunkerque's speed to use. At this point, the enemy team no longer have any ships that can overmatch my bow, and thus the Dunkerque can play to it's own strengths and have unfair fights with the other ships, picking them off one by one and racking up the metals. That's my advice for T8 battles with the Dunkerque, wait it out, let the higher tier ships duke it out with each other until they've destroyed each other, then move in to wreak havoc. The Dunkerque is very strong against Destroyers and Cruisers at any tier, and will earn bonus points of sinking these higher tier ships, so you want to give yourself the best possible chance at taking them out. So don't go full potato and brawl with a bunch of Tirpitzs.
With Operation Dynamo coming back to Operations in WoWS with update 0.7.9, I got a movie that I had not seen that was inspired by the Dunkirk evacuation that I would like to pass on to all. My wife and I watched last night "Their Finest" movie. I got to say I was not bored by it. This movie got me to understand more how the movies of that time was to bolster the English moral during that trying time of history with England. Their Finest (2017) A former secretary, newly appointed as a scriptwriter for propaganda films, joins the cast and crew of a major production. During the London Blitz of World War II, Catrin Cole is recruited by the British Ministry of Information to write scripts for propaganda films that the public will actually watch without scoffing. In the line of her new duties, Cole investigates the story of two young women who supposedly piloted a boat in the Dunkirk Evacuation. Although it proved a complete misapprehension, the story becomes the basis for a fictional film with some possible appeal. Which reminds me of these other Dunkirk films Mrs. Miniver (1942) Dunkirk (1958) So if you got free time and you want to binge watch the Dunkirk movies, here you go for ideas.