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Pugilistic posted a topic in General Game DiscussionPulicat produced a magisterial response, quoted from another thread with one spelling correction: "Seems like you want a discussion. I'm all for that. I'll be clear that I have no qualms with you as a person, or anyone, but I will attack your arguments and the merit used to substantiate them. Anyone who knows me here would tell you that I'm direct and aggressive, so if you don't want that then don't read it. I don't need hapa or any PDFs coming my way. I never watched the original flamu video, but did with yours here. I found it highly amusing you spent so much time pointing out how many planes the carrier was sacrificing in the first 5 minutes, and how terrible it would be for the cv long term, and then you skim over the fact that the cv got the highest base xp on his team by a good margin with a 'whatever'. If his team won, that was a 2700 base xp game. What happened to all that "oh look his plane reserves are yellow. Now deep orange". Where is the plane attrition he suffered? Oh I know, is it because surface ships suffer actual attrition to their AA, and WoWs endgames don't have grouped up ships? Or is it because you can fly through most anything with a single attacking flight as long as you heal through it? When do my AA mounts get to regen do you wonder? Oh yeah, when the CV, the uncontested queen in the endgame, sends me to port. They regen then. By the way, I can't wait for my torpedo damage reduction to get lowered, and my flak to be ignored even if it does hit, with the skill rework. Some gems in there. You miss flamu's entire point, mostly because you don't play ships and can't envision what it's like. During the enemy MVRs first strike of the game, that it got a drop off at all is ridiculous. If even that can't stop the whims of a player to hit whomever he wants, whenever he wants, anything less is just a losing interaction. Battleships and Cruisers REQUIRE spotting to hit targets far away. DDs have to deal with torpedo travel times, or also require spotting while in smoke. There is a need for other people. A carrier spots for itself, hits whomever it wants from far away, all with ~1-3 second accuracy, even if it loses many planes to do so. Carriers have about 50% more payload planes then they did in RTS, and lose less planes because they no longer have to fly back to the carrier in AA as well. They are also protected from being deplaned by regen. Sounds like a lot of handholding to me. If I were in a 1v1 with a CV, it would win. If 2v1, I would still die. 3v1, Still probably die. Even if my team wins, why would I care in a random battle. I have no result because I am getting focused for the ship I'm in, or my player name or my stats on MMM, or just because i'm the short straw. It's like playing in a game where someone is cheating, the interaction can never be fair. Sure, maybe he does something stupid and dies somehow (walk into flak) and you get a laugh. Yeehaw. Then it's right back to the very one sided same ol. I'm not even allowed to fight the planes, the game 'does it for me' because it's apparently too much to handle. Meanwhile hey, we are adding subs and depth charges. Why are my depth charges not launched automatically? Isn't it too hard? Speaking of, we gave carriers 5s fires and a 2 minute long AUTO dcp. Which class is it too hard for again? Too hard for ME to aim my own AA, or too hard for the CV player to dodge AA that isn't automated? Player agency? I get what you're arguing here, it's good to keep the player with something to do. That doesn't mean that the thing they (cvs) get to keep doing is good. Really sounds like you try to say the whole thing is good just because they are doing something. And are you seriously going to try and get away with that 98 or 95% of the players are ok with carriers because they don't come to the forums? If that were true WG would have come out and shoved it in our faces. Instead, every time they've tried to poll anywhere, its been DEMONSTRABLY negative opinions in regard to carriers. I mean my god man, even verizon is like "nah we don't want that CV stuff in the tournament". And this is the most corporate black friday tournament i've ever seen in my life. They literally released META ships ON QUALIFIER DAY FOR MONEY, in the most OP premium tier IN THE GAME. AND CARRIERS ARE STILL NOT ALLOWED. It would be quite clear to anyone that the TWO YEAR LONG campaign against carriers is probably fueled by a smidgen more than 2% of the community. But hey guys, player numbers have grown DURING A PANDEMIC THAT KEEPS EVERYONE INDOORS. CARRIERS MAKIN DA GAME GRRRREAT! I don't know how much you may have played before 0.8.0, but I know you made your account a year before it. As far as I can tell, didn't find much success, nor did you even attempt rts much. Must've just not been your style. And then a year later, hallelujah, we got CV rework. And oh boy, this gameplay, you GET IT. You're pullin down big purple numbers like it's nobodies business. Literally on fire. Got a nice cozy spot as a competitive cv player, life is great. Next thing you know it's 2 years and 4500 carrier battles later, talkin about flamu. You have become the epitome of everything wrong with carrier rework. You are why people differentiate between UNICUM and UNICUM IN CARRIERS. Many average players suddenly find success in terms of performance when they start down the rework lines. I would place my bets on it being because carriers are easier to play than the rest of the game, and part of that comes from fighting automated systems with automated support. It probably helps that they can be simultaneously really far away and untouchable, and in your face hurting you. And no, BBs can't do that. Everyone laughs at max range BBs because they are ineffective. So I ask you, honestly, what is more likely. Is it that people like Gaishu, El2aZeR, Warlord, maybe even myself when I used to play cv, many more super uni players and just the competitive community in general, who have good performances in all ship types, including CVs, just don't truly understand how FAIR carriers are? Or is it that someone like yourself who only performs well in carriers, and poorly in all other classes that those carriers attack, doesn't truly understand how UNFAIR carriers are?"