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Found 38 results

  1. mundaneken

    Historical Accuracy

    Oh yeah, that’s why I started playing a historical naval battle simulation game, so I could get mods and gear based on a child’s toy that was invented 40 years after the end of World War II (Transformers). Oh, and ya gotta love the Cleveland’s perma-camo with the giant eagle head from Zardoz or Easter Island blocking the bridge, complete with wings. I still generally like the game mechanics and UI, but childish themes, unbridled inappropriate fantasy designs, and the like are becoming more and more of a turnoff.
  2. Read Popular Mechanics. February 1943. Page 63
  3. Probably just going to act like an archive of ship histories here are some I have made, definitely not complete nor completely detailed. Will add more when have time. You guys can also chip in Massachusetts: fire upon Jean Bart when the Allies tried to prevent it from being captured and used by German forces after the French surrender. Jean Bart was also attacked by USS ranger planes, and she fought back with a makeshift rangefinder and incomplete aa guns Jean Bart: French Battleship that had most of its action while incomplete, decommissioned in 1957 and scrapped in 1970’s after finally completed in the 1955 USS ranger was the first aircraft carrier built from scratch as a CV for the USN, with CV-1, Langley, being a converted coal ship. She was supposed to be flat evoked, but later had a island superstructure installed that caused large stability issues. She operated in the Atlantic and took part in Operation Torch (allied invasion of Africa) and the attack on Jean Bart. Scharnhorst- record holder for one of the longest hits ever made, about 28,000 yard hit on HMS Glorious in 1940 if I remember. She was a famous commerce raider with her sister Gnesiau (spelling) along with She was sunk by torpedo spread by British forces. Tirpritz - famously painted as a series of residential homes as camoflage, and was hit badly in port by famous 4,000 pound Tallboy bombs from British bombers. One of these bombs missed and is now a pond today lol. Hood - entered Battle of Denmark strait with only her forward and mid deck/magazine armor reinforced, with her aft deck plates and additional armor package waiting at a shipyard. This delay in the upgrade was due to the need for constant presence of hood as a flagship- very little time to upgrade. She, in sheer bad karma, was sunk by a 15inch shell through the unreinforced aft armor. Bismarck, also in sheer bad karma, will get a lucky torpedo hit by swordfish torpedo bombers (too long of a story). Vangard- one of the last British battleships ever built, sad to see her scrapped Alaska- part cruiser part battleship built to counter new Japanese cruisers. 12inch guns, but cruiser like characteristics with radar in game. - no combat experiances Kii was a modern battleship at time of construction with a archaic ww1 doctrine layout, which favored many dual gun turrets rather than a smaller number of triple or quadruple gun turrets to maintain as much firepower in the even of the turret knockout USS Colorado: upgunned version of previous standard battleships, equipped with 16inch rifles. She mostly took part in shore bombardment, supporting landings at Tarawa, Kwajalein, Eniwetok and the Marianas operation between 1943 and 1944 in the Pacific. On 24 July 1944, while bombarding Tinian, she was hit by shore batteries, causing serious casualties among exposed crew topside. She was also hit by kamakazi planes in the late-war era of her service. USS Mexico is known to be the ship that carried Woodrow Wilson, then president of the US, to France in order sign the Treaty of Versailles. In WW2, she, like many USN battleships, was used for shore bombardment. KMS Graf Spee - pocket battleship, armed with battleship-like 11 inch (283mm) cannons and battleship style secondary batteries in a cruiser hull with cruiser specifications. She was primarily tasked with raiding convoys of merchant ships. She was credited with sinking 8 merchant ships and disrupting their convoys. She was engaged by HMS Exeter, HMS Ajax, and HMS Achilles in one of the first naval engagements of WW2. After being damaged significantly she escape to a neutral port and a tilled after misinformed that the three British ships were waiting for her outside the harbor. Closer inspection by the British with approval by the neutral port revealed she had radar.
  4. Rest in peace sailors. If you would like to learn more about Operation: Ten-Go, I suggest viewing Drach's video on the subject.
  5. Navalpride33

    Hospital ships

    Since the majority of us are in our complex private prisons, I mean residence... Here is some interesting viewing You tube history concerning hospital ships... (Why do Canada get a bad wrap even with hospital ships)... For your lock down pleasure viewing...
  6. Ricky9525

    USS. Enterprise

    Hey when are you guys going to do a navel legends on the USS. Enterprise my Father served on it would love to show him a navel legend on his ship. USS.Enterprise
  7. Just posting this here because even now, I still see this 'illusory truth' pop up now and then. And you can see its influence in other games and people perceptions about U.S.S. Wichita. What falsehood am I talking about? Well, let's start with how Wichita came to be. In the latter 1930's, the United States was allowed one more Heavy Cruiser under the Washington and London naval treaties. Wichita was going to be another New Orleans class, but the Navy decided they had some issues with the New Orleans design and wanted to do something different. That is when the looked at the very successful Brooklyn design. And here is where the 'illusory truth' comes in. Several people read, they used the Brooklyn hull... and stop right there. I have been told, read, etc many times that Wichita has a light cruisers hull and armor with heavy cruiser guns. Some even say they used a spare Brooklyn hull. At first, even WG wanted to give Wichita 25mm bow armor and armor to match more of a light cruiser until her actual armor scheme was pointed out (and balance issues). Azur Lane has Wichita with 'light' armor, even though Portland and New Orleans class have 'medium' as well as Baltimore. A person on Facebook even ranted how Wichita never served in the Pacific because her armor was so bad, one hit would have caused the entire ship to break apart (he mistook Wichita for U.S.S. Ranger). Recently a twitch player said Wichita is a lighter cruiser, heavy cruiser hybrid with light cruiser hull armor and heavy cruiser guns... No, just no folks. The Naval architects used the design Layout of Brooklyn, tweaked it to a larger size, put on the best armor of any US treaty cruiser (practically Baltimore's level), and even added some more innovation with secondary placements. While Brooklyn started a much improved cruiser layout design, Wichita helped push it into the next Cleveland and Baltimore designs and beyond. She weighed 400 tons more than she was supposed to by treaty (10400 tons), but at that time no one would really care. She was not 'light' in any sense of the word. And she did have an interesting service life. From peacetime Caribbean tours, to Arctic convoys, dodging 15 inch shells from Jean Bart and sinking destroyers and cruisers there, taking a torpedo trying to save Chicago, Alaska (poor birds), numerous Pacific islands campaigns, and finishing off Chiyoda. So, if you ever here anyone say, "Wichita has light cruiser armor", please stop the 'illusory truth' right there. It is a falsehood often repeated and needs to be stopped.
  8. Sgt_Something_

    USS Kitty Hawk; End of an Era

    USS Kitty Hawk entered service in April 29, 1961. USS Kitty Hawk(CV-63) retired in 2007 after the USS George Washington (CVN-73) took her place in Japan. She was supposed to be retired in 2008 but the Washington had a fire on the way so she had another year of active service. Here are some facts about the carrier: -Near the end of her life, her escalators stop working so it servers as a long stair case. Those pilot's legs will never skip leg day. -John F. Kennedy spent a night in the ship. -The ship has four elevators but the first one is rogue to accommodate the enlarge jet blast deflectors that were required for the F-14 - Kitty Hawk was awarded the Navy Unit Commendation for exceptionally meritorious service from 26 November 1965 to 14 May 1966 -Kitty Hawk was a cameo in the movie, The Finial Countdown. -On March 21, 1984, Kitty Hawk collides into a Soviet Sub. -Best known nickname is the [edited] Kitty due to old pipes, frequent break downs, many paint coats, hard to clean, and expensive to run as sailors described her during Operation Enduring freedom -20 deployments -Race riot in 1972 -She is the seco....third longest serving ship after USS Blue Ridge(LLC-19) CV-63's specifications: 5,624 officers and enlisted | 61,351 tones | Length: 1,068.9 feet (325.80 meters) | Beam: 284 feet (86.56 meters) | Flank Speed: 33 Knots
  9. In this replay battle, I highlight some of the strengths and weaknesses of the ship and the Russian light cruiser line, and include a little History of the ship itself, and my recommended captain skills for her. Enjoy, and thanks for watching !
  10. So, seeing as they lowered (sort of) most of the shop prices, gave me a 30% coupon and I could free up the cash, I bought myself Ark Royal - something great to have especially as the ship that helped sink the Bismark. Which of course I thought meant a bit more care and attention would be paid to it but of course - why we would do that? The lengths to get other ships right, but disregard it for CV's. I just can't understand some of these decisions in balance and history. The Balance - Seriously, what the hell tier are these planes supposed to be? The Skua is tier 5 it seems, as the starter on Furious, but the Swordfish is, for whatever insane reason, the bomber on Hermes. Further adding to this quandary - the HP. You wanna say Hermes uses tier 5's, or Ark Royal uses tier 4's - fine. The Skua is the same at least but the Swordfish has around 300 less HP. On a group level, yes, they have more HP than Furious's, but are slower and even less agile meaning more time in AA, and more hits. On the subject of speed - 100 knots? As it is that can be slow and painful on the tier 4 maps, that are actually close in small maps. 100 knots on maps meant for tier 8 ships - it takes that much longer to get anywhere - and is even more 'fun' when you have tier 8 CV's to deal with as well. 40 lb bombs - So, lets even forget for just a second, that the RP-3 actually had almost double the explosives than these, and that actually even the common shells of USN DD's with the 5/38 guns that we call HE had 1-2 pounds more, with some of the same filling but I'm assuming 'Balance' is why these magically do 500 more damage per hit than those rounds and nearly double the RP-3's - Why are these even back in the game? They were removed from Tier 4 because they are ineffective. So because you added another plane per strike you thought that'd fix the issue? BB's still shrug this off like it's nothing, hell, some of the cruisers this thing sees do. A lower tier battle with tier 5's, some low AA tier 6's - yeah, 7 hits have put a pretty good hurting on a cruiser. The amount of bombs, decent for ensuring at least a hit on a DD, though not what I'd call 'effective' against them. Now if the idea were that this is a cruiser hunting ship - great, I'm all about CV's having something in particular they hunt better - but the key is actually giving it tools to do so regardless of tier. That means planes that can actually withstand tier 8 cruiser AA decently, with somewhat better speed and y'know, bombs that against some of the higher tier cruisers don't shatter against deck plating. The History - I don't really have a way to sort this one because a lot of it loops together. Case in point - The ship, as completed, only had 4 of her 8 barrel cannons, the other 2 were added later - the rough date seems to point to around May 1941 - when she hunted down Bismarck - a fact that I suppose goes with her getting the camo options she does. But here's the problem - the Skua was pretty much pulled from service in 1940, with a handful staying around in early 1941 in places - but by the time of getting those added cannons and going to hunt the Bismarck - she was operating Fulmar's alongside the Swordfish, not Skua's. But if the idea is 1939/40 Ark Royal, well, you have a couple extra guns it shouldn't actually have. And really, taking them away won't hurt as the AA in general is pretty pathetic anyway, I doubt there would be a truly noticeable change. Also, as I said, the Skua was pulled in 1940 - it never saw usage of the RP-3 at all, it wasn't even in actual service at the same time. Now - actually finding accounts of the Fulmar using them, again, seems to have not been a thing but it was operational when they were introduced at least - and the Firefly was basically a modified Fulmar and it did carry them so far less of a stretch. If your team even just wants to copy/paste the firefly and just call it a Fulmar and not edit it/build it from the ground up - I'll even take that at this point. But then there is even what it has. While we finally get the Swordfish as a TB, it is again a level bomber, while the Skua, one of the only real DB's the Royal Navy actually had and used, least that they made themselves, is again a rocket armed plane. Look, if you gave the Skua all those 40 lb bombs yeah, you'd be wrong historically - but your already wrong with the rockets this at least makes it a bomber, better yet if you actually have it being a DB. While the Swordfish did in fact carry rockets and could fill that role. But the bigger sin here is I think missed opportunity. You have SAP shells in development - why not bombs, especially as the Skua was armed with a 500 lb SAP bomb? Doubly so cause that's actually the type IJN used other than HE, especially as the AP bombs you have in game weren't used on DB's they were limited to the TB's and B7A, with the TB's acting as level bombers, jury's out on the B7A. Make it actually unique to the game and as a test bed for something new that can add more flavour options because there are more CV lines we can and should add once we get the rework fixed up more.Maybe it's like Italian SAP rounds, maybe it's like an HE bomb with IFHE, maybe something else - like a British AP shell but with a small fire chance. A (more) historically accurate ship, testing a concept that can be used for others. And it's not like the Fulmar is a high performance plane for the tier, if anything fits around 5 a bit better than 6, especially as the Hurricanes replaced them. And look, I'm not here saying the ships bad, a weak AA cruiser on it's own - it's gonna have a bad time those bombers start hammering it. The 3 TB's are nice, again, when you have targets with not that great AA. It's one of the few CV's that actually feels comfortable because of it's shorter time to replace those losses it takes, still can feel them pretty hard in higher tier fights though. Against tier 5 and some 6 ships, pretty terrifying stuff, against other 6's and 7 and 8's..... not quite as much. But at this point - that's a frustrating 'par for the course' when it comes to tier 6 CV's and well, CV's in general. Against the lower tier ships and some same tier, you may as well be the grim reaper, against higher tier and some same tier, banging your head on things trying to actually damage a ship sometimes taking 10+ minutes of constant attacks to kill it. I'm glad to see it finally added, even if I think it should still be in the tech tree maybe around tier 7 but hey more reason to toss in a "what if it had survived further" version just have to think up a name unless we wanna call the premium version Ark Royal 1939 or 1940 or whatever. While it seems 'fine' short term I have concerns long term, especially cause some AA still needs buffing even if others it see's need a nerf. And while yes, the current NA stats look amazing at under 300 battles, I know part of that is skewed by dropping in 10+ point commanders, and the other is that other than people that got it RNG from a box, maybe some collectors, that most of the people who have it are likely those of us that play CV's a lot, and are actually kinda good at it or better, and can take a ship that has issues but work around them and do well in them making it look better than it really is (though a rocket hit detonating I think it was a Nurnberg from around 70% hp certainly helps too). And that if we ever get to a point where it's not us few specialists or stubborn fools and is actually a class played by a larger group - that it's going to have quite a few issues. @Umbaretz - any insight you can give why these choices were made? Especially some of the history stuff because honestly - it's really starting to get irritating that the new norm is seemingly "Any surface ship, especially premiums, as absolute historical as possible with all the right modules and all" while CV's is "screw it just throw whatever planes on it and screw history and all too even if it's not for gameplay or balance".
  11. I was doing more research on the Bismarck, and I was taking a look at the swastikas on the deck of the Bismarck, and I was wondering, how were they put on the decks? Were they painted? Were the teak boards dyed? Were the swastikas made with metal sheets that were colored or dyed? If someone could answer my question(s), I’d really appreciate it!
  12. I know that during the World Wars, there were some cases in which the British government requisitioned ships for military service. One that comes to mind is the HMHS Britannic (the Titanic's sister ship) that was requisitioned by the Royal Navy for use as a hospital ship. This particular ship was sunk by a mine. I believe some other larger passenger ships were also requisitioned for carrying troops. Did the British government pay the companies for these requisitions? In the specific case of the HMHS Britannic, it appears that the British government did pay £75 000 to the White Star Line, but that was to cover some required modifications. I don't see anything on the internet about whether or not the government paid for borrowing any of the requisitioned ships, let alone paid when the ship was lost. I would find it highly unlikely that they didn't, since some of these requisitioned ships were freshly built ships that would have cost the shipping lines a ton of money to make. But, then again, the war was important, so many the government didn't pay them.
  13. I have been ready an anthology of naval alternate history stories, Those in Peril, from Amazon kindle shop. A lot of fun stories. USA joins ww1 on Germany's side and see what Jutland looks like? Or 1928 off New Jersey and HMS Hood and HMS Nelson and the rest of a british squardron are sunk by USN defenders including first successful flattop actions. Have a look and enjoy. Tony
  14. Posting this for the interest and the History of the latest ship
  15. Okay, compared to the overall massive balance issues, this is minor. But it is seriously annoying that with the focus shifted to planes as if they were our ships, that there are details about placement and all that are just completely botched and I can't fathom a reason why. For Starters "Lexington" and it's planes - Wargaming mounting of HVAR rockets - The worst part being if you look - the actual mount for the rocket is there on the wings. Which is where an HVAR rocket should be mounted. That is the proper instillation of HVAR's here. Then you have the SB2C DB's - I haven't gotten quite a good enough shot to confirm they are in fact 1000 lb M-65 GP bombs - but that part is somewhat irrelevant because the SB2C wing hardpoints for bombs were rated only for 500 lb bombs, the 1000 lb bombs would have been carried in the internal bay. And for the guy who wants to say "But Tiny Tim's weigh more and were carried like that" It used a different mount, and the weight distribution is different. Actually surprised the Corsairs with Tiny Tim's are actually right. Seeing the count of rockets on the F4U at tier 9 - already know it's wrong simply on count, and I'd take a guess that the 2 center mounts are used like above. But then we have this - the F8F Not the greatest shot I know - but the obvious center mount rocket is obvious unlike the extra rocket jammed on to the port wing more or less clipping with the inboard most rocket. Forgoing the fact the F8F was limited to 4, and there are plenty of aircraft options in the attack role that could carry 10 and that applies even to the F4U at 9, hell, the AD-1 you already have at 9 has the hard points for it, you haphazardly jammed 1 in and the other is mounted wrong - really, really wrong. Personally I say remove it for a plane that could carry that many or change the distribution of rockets and aircraft to match, but could you not at least go with a more believable and logical 5 per wing? No picture at the moment, brought it up elsewhere - Saipan's Tiny Tim's - the center mounting is wrong, didn't carry 3, just go to 3 planes with 2 rockets - it's fair on Lexatoga, and I will gladly trade the extra 3x2 for 2x3 as a Saipan owner. Granted at this point I don't think 3x3 would really put it over the top either cause it's not exactly stellar and still just puts it on par with Lex and still the same number of rockets. Also no picture at the moment but unless something changed - IJN torpedoes have the wrong stabilizer for single engine planes. The Box Type in this link is what was used for single engine planes - like the B5N. Those are the immediate glaring ones that have really kinda bothered me as it is from the start (The Lexington ones kinda put me over as I decided to take the Halloween camo off finally after wondering why I could only see 3 rockets per wing), aside from other certain ones pertaining to Kaga's uptiering. Something that would be a nice touch though would actually to also have right squadron markings, or closer, tied to the ships and planes. Especially if say we added a couple of the Essex classes, the other Yorktowns, etc. In Lexington by which I mean Saratoga's case while she never had Corsairs, These were the markings for the F6F fighters Saratoga had in February 1945. The current marking are, somewhat ironically given I'm the guy who's suggested it as a premium without them, the markings of F4U's of USS Shangri-La. You wanna focus this game play around the planes - fine. But then at the very least as much care and detail should be applied to their appearance and all as any ship in the game because especially with the longer flight times were going to be spending a lot of time looking at them. And while I'm sure say a Colorado player would appreciate the extra barrel per turret in terms of damage increase would be distracted and possibly annoyed by it being mounted on the roof of the turret if they weren't going after it cause history. This is arguably my biggest gripe with the rework - the seeming lack of care about CV's, their history, and details like any of the other 3 classes. Removing odd tiers, Kaga, and some of these feel like forcing ships to fit something easy for you guys, screw history and all that.
  16. MS406france1940

    Sabaton History

    So I don't know if you are familiar with them or not, but there is a Sweedish power metal band called Sabaton that you simply have to hear if you are a history buff. Most of their songs are about military-related things like mayor battles, historical figures etc. Recently they have joined forces with Indy Neidell (Of the Great War and WW2 week by week fame) to create a youtube channel where they discuss the history behind their songs and the songs themselves. Needless to say if you know either Indy or Sabaton, the channel is one of the most amazing things ever created by mankind just behind battleships and memes. If this interest you here is the link to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaG4CBbZih6nLzD08bTBGfw If you don't know Sabaton here is what I would consider a (very short) beginners guide:
  17. Interesting info on a turret damaged by a kamikaze, then nuked, and living in the Nevada desert.
  18. The SS Ourang Medan In 1947 the Dutch Freighter SS Ourang Medan sent a cryptic SOS in Morse code; "All Officers, including the Captain, are dead. Lying in chartroom and bridge. Possibly whole crew dead. This communication was followed by a burst of indecipherable Morse code, Then a final, grim message: “I die.” I first read of this in Vincent Gaddis’s 1965 book “Invisible Horizons: Strange Mysteries of the Sea-True stories that defy logic…” Now many years later I revisit this interesting legend to see what new evidence the passage of time has revealed. The Ship transmitting the eerie SOS signal was the SS Ourang Medan. Radio directional equipment established the ships last position and an American merchant ship, the Silver Star, was sent to investigate and render aid. The ship was found adrift approximately 50 miles from her Indicated position. When the Silver Star arrived alongside the Ourang no signs of life could be seen, although the ship itself didn’t appear to have suffered any damage. All efforts to contact the crew failed, and the ship was boarded. The decks were littered with the bodies with wide-eyed horror and their faces twisted into sheer terror, arms trying to fight off something. The ship’s dog was found dead as well, in the midst of snarling at the cause. The Captain was found on his bridge, the remainder of the Bridge Officers were found in the wheelhouse and Chartroom. In the wireless room the young operator, who presumably sent the distress call, lay dead with his earphones on, hand at his key. The engineering crew was also found at their stations with the same expressions on their faces. In all 22 crew members were found dead. Interestingly one lifeboat was missing, as well as one member of the crew unaccounted for and never found (at the time.) The rescue party noticed several things that seemed strange. The local temperature was in excess of 100°F but members of the rescue party felt an ominous chill. All of the victims had suffered from something, but none had any injuries when examined. They also seemed to be decaying quicker than they should be. They decided to toe the ship to the nearest port and began making preparations. Just as salvage operations began they noticed ominous billows of smoke pouring out from Number 4 hold. Quickly they cut the ship loose just as the Ourang Medan exploded with enough force to briefly lift it out of the water before rolling over and sinking… disappearing for good. Like The Philadelphia Experiment, the story of the SS Ourang Medan has become something of a legend over all these 75+ years, with new “facts” added here and there. Did it really happen? Read the full story here; https://www.de173.com/the-ss-ourang-medan/ complete with detailed information, letters found in the CIA Archives, Original Newspaper clippings and more. This page is still in the process of research and editing but already provides a deep dive into the subject and I hope you find it Interesting.
  19. So, if this is in the wrong section mods - please just move it to the right one. And a forward for any WG staff looking at the idea: This is meant as something to add to a sense of history to certain CV's in the game NOT to be used to correct historical gaffs like those now on Kaga. This SHOULD NOT be a substitute for putting THE RIGHT planes on a premium CV and where possible tech tree ones, the first bloody time, or if need be putting the ship down a tier or in the unlikely case of such a need, up a tier. That out of the way, in all my testing on CV's there is one thing I can't say I don't like - the Lex's Halloween skin. Much as I'm the history guy when it comes to CV's I'm not against fun things like a skin that changes the planes, that can be removed for normal camo's, and have the right planes. And it was nice to see that, while they need some tweaks I think to weapon placement (maybe even mess with the look of them), it still changes the planes. And that got me thinking, especially with UK CV's on the way. Plenty of people want Ark Royal and to send it against Bismarck, though we have no idea what Wargaming is going to do with it. Lexington, as some of us know, is really Saratoga and one of the older CV's, Shokaku was part of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Midway's served into the early jet age, etc. So - what if we applied this concept of the Halloween skins to more historical skins for the CV's? Sure things like AA and all would be wrong, unless things could be added/removed visually with no actual effect on gameplay. Example being a ship has 20x 20 mm guns, but the "historical" skin they were instead 15x .50 cal's, so visually - you only see the 15x .50 cal's, but from a gameplay standpoint the DPS/range/etc are still the 20x 20 mm's and still able to disable them hitting where you normally would. But you could actually make Lexington Lexington circa the battle of Coral Sea, Shokaku flying her planes she did on December 7th 1941, Depending where she is tiered Yorktown maybe runs her Midway look and planes, Ark Royal, has her aircraft from when she disabled Bismarck so now you two can attack one with swordfish torpedo bombers - without having to worry that they are tier 4/6 in the tech tree as they are still technically your normal tier 6/8 planes, but with the appearance of the Swordfish. Some of these CV's saw a bunch of different planes over 5, 10, 20+ years of service, and while sure there's some classes with 20+ ships you can cover them all, but most are 1 or 2. Just a random idea I had a few days ago. I think it could be neat, and great to have for anniversary events of these battles as mission rewards or maybe campaign rewards that people can earn first - and then later on if they weren't around or couldn't get it the ability to buy it. The satisfaction of disabling a Bismarck's rudder with a torpedo, without the possible rage of severely weak planes because game mechanics, a possible what if meeting of the Enterprise and Shokaku both as they were December 7th, or Lex and Shokaku as they were at Coral Sea.
  20. Ever wondered about that song that travels the world, around 24 time zones, unite a bunch of strangers in harmony? I I found this informative video about the song it self. Who would've imagine, a song based on a tempo of 2/4 time, would have such a powerful feeling regardless of where you are. For hose of us with health problems consider this a huge achievement. Staying alive is a full time job all by itself. Happy New Year Everyone!
  21. Le Terrible - A History The Le Fantasque-class (Fantasque meaning whimsical/capricious), now represented in World of Warships by the Le Terrible, is perhaps one of the most interesting classes of destroyers ever built, and Le Terrible is undoubtedly their most famous member. So what caused the French to build such massive destroyers? And how well did their design concepts translate into service? Here, we’re going to examine the design origins and service of one of World of Warship’s most recent additions, the Tier VIII French Destroyer Le Terrible. As a design, the ship represented the culmination of the evolution of much of France's interwar naval technology, and her naval arms race with Italy in regards to light ships. Her design is fascinating, as is her history, tumultuous as it is, and it gives a look into the complicated fates that befell so many French ships during the Second World War - in fact, in many ways her life offers a microcosm as to the struggles the Marine Nationale faced during the war. Be warned now, this post is focused almost entirely on historical considerations, so while I still encourage you to read it - if you're only here for WoWs gameplay, you might find this a bit dry! Design One of the last, and probably the best, of the contre-torpilleur lineage, the Le Fantasque–class was one of the largest evolutions of this ship type. Originally, the contre-torpilleurs had been conceived to act as scouts for the fleet, and counter those of the enemy. However, with the introduction of the esploratori by the Italian Navy (scout ships, essentially large, very powerful destroyers), this line of unique French warship escalated to becoming powerful large destroyers with exceptionally large guns (138.6mm), who’s main purpose was to take down esploratori, and act as the eyes of the French fleet. The subsequent classes of Contre-Torpilleurs had changed little since their inception, only incorporating minor improvements. However, this was soon to change. The Marine Nationale’s Italian rivals, the Regia Marina, were not letting this challenge go unanswered, and replied with the 'esploratori grandi' - the Giussano-class. Eventually re-rated as light cruisers, these ships, the first 'Condottieri' class, were based on enlarged hulls of the last class of esploratori, the Navigatori-class esploratori leggeri. Essentially small cruisers, they were designed to hunt down and kill the French large destroyers, and appeared well equipped for the job – they mounted eight (4xII) 152mm guns in power-operated turrets with director control, and the ships were absurdly fast for their size. On machinery power trials, one of them (Alberico da Barbiano) even managed to exceed 42 knots, although service speed was much lower, 36.5-37 knots when brand-new. This sent the French scrambling for a response. While they still theorized that one of the their three-ship contre-torpilleur divisions could take down one of these Italian light cruisers… well, they wanted to actually be able to win the fight, and Italian cruisers tended to operate in pairs… One of the first issues the French wished to address was the range of their guns. The 138.6mm/40 Mle 1927 fired its heavy 40 kg shells at only 700mps, typical for French destroyer-caliber guns. However, the maximum ballistic range of its SAP rounds was 16.6 km at the maximum elevation of 28º. In contrast, the maximum range of the 44.57 kg HE used by the Italian light cruisers was about 24.6 km at its maximum elevation of 45º. That being said, the maximum effective range of the Mle 1927 (due to fire control) was only about 14.0 km, while the Italians considered 15 to 17 km to be the sweet spot for the guns, and engagement ranges could easily stretch out to 20 km. Thus, the French opted for a much more powerful main gun, a 50-caliber length weapon with a propellant charge almost 35% more powerful – resulting in a muzzle velocity of 800 mps for the SAP rounds, and 840 mps for the HE. The mounts were also able to elevate to 30º, and these factors combined gave the new gun – the 138.6mm/50 Mle 1929 – a maximum ballistic range of 20.0 km. That being said, due to spotting problems, the maximum effective range was not much greater than it was before. However, that did not mean the upgrade was in vain – the guns now hit with greater power, and the increase in velocity solved the dispersion issue that had dogged the earlier low-velocity guns – an issue so dire, it had made gunnery beyond 13 km ineffective. Instead, the new weapons were noted to have quite tight dispersion. To further improve firepower, the No.3 gun was moved from the usual position to one facing forward, close to the aft turrets – an arrangement similar to that found on the later American Fletcher-class destroyers. The twin torpedo tubes forward were replaced by triples, at the expense of ASW equipment. Another massive improvement to the design was the introduction of fire control directors. Whereas prior French destroyers only had a rangefinder platform, and relied on a 3-meter coincidence rangefinder using a Follow-the-Pointer system, the Le Fantasque-class sought to change this. Fire control had been an area where French destroyers had been at considerable disadvantage to their Italian counterparts, who had used director control in almost all their destroyer classes following WWI (with 3 to 3.5-meter stereoscopic rangefinders). While French destroyers would struggle to fire beyond 14 km due to fire control issues (and 13 km due to dispersion), the British would note during WWII the surprising ability of Italian destroyers to accurately fire on their ships from ranges they did not consider reasonably possible – whereas they might open fire at 12000 yards (11 km), in the sinking of the Espero, the titular Italian destroyer (120mm/45) was engaged by five British light cruisers (152mm/50) and at a range of 14000 yards (12.8 km), hit first. Nine days later at the Battle of Calabria, the much more modern Vittorio Alfieri (120mm/50) was able to accurately engage British cruisers at a range of 17,000 yards (15.5 km). While the viability of long-range destroyer fire can be considered questionable at best in hindsight, at the time it was highly valued by the Mediterranean rivals, and the French sought to take a lead in this capability. Thus, the Le Fantasque-class became the first French destroyers to equip full director control, with a 5-meter stereoscopic rangefinder. This fed an Mle 1929 fire control computer, which would then feed the guns elevation and bearing via a follow-the pointer system. However, the largest improvement, and responsible for the fame of the class, was the upgrade to the ship’s propulsion system. Up to this point, while the French large destroyers had been decently fast, they really weren’t exceptionally fast, and the new Italian cruisers were even faster (on paper - reality, as we will explore later, was a bit different). The French chose to move to new superheated steam machinery, and also lengthen the hull by three meters. Power increased from 64,000 CV to 74,000 CV for a design speed increase from 36 to 37 knots (CV is a French horsepower unit, equal to 0.98632 shp. Thus, the increase above is from 63,124 shp to 72,988 shp). In this respect, these ships excelled. On their ‘normal’ power trials, all six ships of the class were able to make over 41 knots over their eight-hour run, and in the ninth hour all were able to exceed 42 knots, many making over 43 knots. About a week later, on much lighter tonnage, Le Terrible cemented herself in fame by exceeding 45 knots on one of her runs down the Glenans-Penmarch Range. Although impressive, this performance was unrealistic. In service, all the ships were capable of reaching just over 40 knots, and the top formation speed for the ships using Rateau turbines was 40 knots, and 38-39 knots for those with Parsons turbines. On paper, the new super-destroyers were fantastic, fast and well armed, with capable fire control. Faster and better armed than Italian destroyers, and now equipped with at least as good fire control, it seemed clear nothing less than the Italian light cruisers could counter them, and even then it might not go well for the Regia Marina’s CT-killers. However, for all their strengths on paper, the ships had considerable difficulties in teething issues. Starting trials in 1934, their machinery became a major point of issue, Le Terrible and two of her sisters stripping their turbines, leading to a long delay for repairs, while another was unable to change over to her main turbines from her cruise turbines on her very first voyage. Another, L’Audacieux, had to have the brickwork of her Penhoët boilers completely rebuilt. Even after completion, although many early machinery issues were solved, they remained rather sensitive powerplants that could not sustain repeated heavy operations, and Le Terrible's Yarrow Loire boilers would be particularly problematic (all other ships used Penhoët boilers). Due to the fact that many of the components of the ships were built in civilian yards due to both the inability of French yards to cope with the Marine Nationale’s orders and the wish t spread work to fight the damaging affects of the Great Depression, qualitative issues dogged the construction of French ships. In particular, it was found the platforms seating the main guns was totally unable to handle the recoil forces of the guns, and had to be replaced, causing another half-year delay for the delivery of the ships. Ultimately, it took longer for the ships to be completed than it did for contemporary cruisers! Steel quality would form a major issue for the class, partly due to the to the yards used, and partly due to the fact that France lagged behind most other naval powers in metallurgy during the interwar period, although this shortcoming was rectified in the early 1930s. Particularly concerning was the fact that after only four years of service, it was discovered that the Le Fantasque’s had pitting of up to 8mm depth on their hulls – hulls that were only 6 to 14mm thick to begin with! Issues also dogged their gunnery. In spite of the introduction of improved hoists based on those used by the light cruiser Émile Bertin, the hoists were far to slow to feed the main guns at the same rate as their firing cycle. Two hoists existed (One for the fore guns, one for the aft guns), each able to supply 20 rounds per minute total. This limited the theoretical peak replenishment (and thus firing cycle) of the fore guns to 10 rpm, and the aft guns to 6.7 rpm. On top of the slow delivery (considering the guns were meant to reach 12 rpm), the system also suffered from frequent jams, and it was also possible – and not necessarily rare – for shells to fall all the way down the hoists! One can imagine the shock an ammunition handler might have from a 40 kg shell dropping on top of them out of the blue. While the system overall was lighter than what came before it, and also took up less space… its performance left much to be desired. Because of these issues, French crews took to adopting large ready-racks, able to fit 24 rounds, in order to combat this. These measures allowed the destroyers to engage in 2-4 minutes of combat before retiring in order to replenish their ready racks – although because of this limitation, many crews opted to over-load the racks, often to dangerous levels. Generally speaking, however, operating conditions limited the rate of fire to about 7 rpm. Although the issue of their ammunition replenishment was partially solved by the crews themselves, what was never able to be countered was the vibration issues suffered by the class when operating at high speed. These vibrations made rangefinding effectively impossible at any speeds over 30 knots, and thus the Marine Nationale limited the gunnery speed of the destroyers to 28 knots – well below their top speeds, which reached 40 knots. Another advancement the French attempted to apply to the gunnery of the Le Fantasque-class was the addition of RPC (Remote Power Control). RPC was the ‘holy grail’ (to borrow the extremely fitting words of John Jordan) for the Marine Nationale and Regia Marina, who both sought to obtain greater and greater freedom of fire while maneuvering, allowing ships to confound enemy firing solutions while maintaining their own. While both navies were able to place it on their cruisers (Training for French cruisers, Train and Elevation for Italian cruisers), only the French attempted to place it in a destroyer, which typically don’t have the space and power capacity for the necessary servomotors. What RPC did was, rather than have gun crews follow the inputs from the directors (Follow-the-Pointer, or FTP), was to do so directly, greatly increasing automation and reaction speed. It also helped counter the rough conditions created by poorer weather conditions. The ability to fit such a system to the Contre-Torpilleurs would provide a major edge in combat, especially if it came to fighting Italian cruisers – so it’s little wonder the French took a crack at it. All except Le Terrible and L’Indomptable were fitted with it, but in service it failed to deliver. The systems for compensating movement did not work, insufficiently sensitive resulting to overcompensation. And even greater failure was the inability to operate in rough seas, at all. If activated when the ship experienced violent motions, the circuit breakers would trigger and disable the entire system. In service, in could only be operated in calm sea conditions. Likewise, sufficient power could not be supplied to the system, as the electrical generators – two 80 kW turbo-generators – were not enough for the demands of RPC for five guns. It was thus disembarked from the ships it had been tested on, and the 138.6mm mounts were hand elevated and traversed. Service Pre-War Laid down on the 8th of December 1931 at Ateliers et Chantiers de la Loire, Saint-Nazaire, the fourth member of the Type 1929 Contre-Torpilleur class, program number 145, project Da 19, was named Le Terrible, after a Ship-of-the-Line from France’s revolutionary period. Although dismasted by the HMS Royal Sovereign in the battle, Le Terrible played an important role in securing French strategic victory, allowing the well over 100-ship strong grain convoy to reach France unmolested. The name, meaning 'The Terrible One', is analogous to the classical definition of the word - 'Fearsome'. Launched on the 30th of November 1933, she was finally taken for trials in December of 1934. Le Terrible in Caen Canal, while still fitting out. As can be seen, here armament as yet to be fitted Her normal trials took place on 22 January 1935, which tested her machinery power at ‘normal’ displacement (2840 tons, which was her minimal amount of fuel, reserve water, ammunition, and other consumables for operations). Her actual displacement was 2853 tons, or 83.5% of her full load displacement. Over the first eight hours of her trial, her rated 74,000 CV propulsion made 86,343 CV, giving her 329 shaft rotations per minute and propelling her at 42.92 knots. Over her ninth hour, she established the top speed of her class, working up to 90,868 CV and 403 shaft rpm, and reaching a top speed of 43.78 knots. What followed was even more impressive, as on the 30th she ran three lengths of the Glenans-Penmarch range, and during her second run worked up to 94,353 CV for 419.78 shaft rpm and a top speed of 45.42 knots. Correcting her displacement to Washington standard (2615.99 tons, or 76.56% of full displacement) resulted in this value being lowered to 45.02 knots, but either way, Le Terrible had established a new world speed record for destroyers (and large warships in general), which remains unbroken to this day. Although not one of her famous high-speed runs, here Le Terrible steams on her verification sortie, 10 May 1935 On April 15th, the Le Terrible was commissioned into the Marine Nationale, although she wasn’t competed until October, and only entered service on the 5th of February 1936. She was grouped with her other sisters that used Rateau turbines in the 10th DCT (division de contre-torpilleurs). In May, she and three of her sisters were present for a naval review conducted to inaugurate the opening of a new building for the Naval School at Brest. As of October, the 10th DCT was reorganized as the 10th Light Division, which together with their other sisters (8th Light Division) made up the 2nd Light Squadron, lead by the light cruiser Émile Bertin, which acted as their flagship. Late that year, Le Terrible and her sisters received a fire control upgrade, and automatic graph being added to their computers, which were then redesigned Mle 1929M36. In early 1937 1.5-meter stereoscopic rangefinders replaced their 1-meter AA models. Le Terrible at the Naval School of Brest review On the 27th of May 1937, she participated in another naval review for the Navy Minister, on board the brand-new battleship Dunkerque. However, for the most part her life was very quiet before WWII, avoiding the drama of the Spanish Civil War, and the unfortunate accidents that seemed to plague French destroyers before the war – beaching and collisions, or even spontaneous detonations! Wartime Service (Pre-Amistice) Life finally picked up, however, as France entered WWII on 3 September 1939. She and 10th DCT (yes – the designation did change again) were part of Force de Raid, centered around the 1st Line Division, made up of the two Dunkerque-class battleships. With them was 8th DCT, and the new 6th DCT, made of the two Mogador-class destroyers. Together the destroyers made up the 2nd Light Squadron, Force de Raid’s escort force (Force de Raid proper being made up of 1st DL and the 4th cruiser division, made up of three La Galissonniére-class light cruisers). Force de Raid was based out of Brest, their first sortie actually sortied on the 2nd of September to hunt for German ships that were reported to have left port (none, in fact, had). Failing to find anything in four days of searching, Force de Raid returned to port after its first and only full-strength sortie. The destroyers helped escort some convoys from Britain to France, but in October the 10th DCT was sent south to Dakar in order to hunt for German raiders as part of Force X (made of the carrier HMS Hermes, the battleship Dunkerque, heavy cruisers Algérie and Dupleix, and the 10th DCT minus L’Audacieux). Starting missions on the 10th, Le Terrible would have her first success of her career on the 25th when she and her sister Le Fantasque stopped and seized the German freighter Santa Fe. The two destroyers were relieved on the 12th of November, escorting Strasbourg and Algérie back to France on the 21st, and then went to reform a now-understrength Force de Raid. Based in the Atlantic, Le Terrible was in relatively calm waters, but her situation did not reflect that of the rest of France’s destroyers. In a situation paralleling France’s struggles on land, French destroyers found themselves increasingly unable to counter the Axis threat, their lackluster-at-best anti-aircraft firepower leading them to suffer heavily at the hands of the Luftwaffe. As the situation deteriorated on land, and French destroyers were being pummeled off Dunkirk, Force de Raid was sent to Mers-el-Kébir on the 5th of April in anticipation of Italian entry into the war, but on the 9th was sent back to Brest in anticipation of combat in Norway. However, on the 27th they were sent back, minus two other destroyers. However, as April wore into May, they were steadily reinforced by more French destroyers, and two of the Bretagne-class battleships. Although early June was spent by most of the ships evacuating personnel from France, Le Terrible remained in Mers-el-Kébir, and was largely inactive throughout June 1940. Le Terrible at anchor in Mers-el-Kébir in the Spring of 1940. Beyond her are the light cruisers Gloire and Georges Leygues The Armistice, and Vichy Service On the 25th of June, 1940, at the early hour of 0035, the French Armistice went into affect. France had surrendered, and French naval forces as per the treaty were frozen in place. Nine days later, the British launched Operation Catapult – the capture or immobilization of French naval assets across the planet to prevent their use against Great Britain. French ships in British ports everywhere were seized just before dawn, and in one of the more tragic moments of WWII, the Battle of Mers-el-Kébir would occur, the largest action of Le Terrible’s career. On the morning of July 3rd, Force H from Gibraltar would appear off the French base, consisting of the battleships Valiant and Resolution, battlecruiser Hood, two light cruisers, eleven destroyers, and the carrier Ark Royal in support. The British offered the French these options; Sail with the British and continue the fight against Germany and Italy. Sail to a British port with reduced crews where the ships would be safeguarded until hostilities were over. Sail with reduced crews to a French West Indies port where the ships could be demilitarized, or entrusted to the safekeeping of the United States. Sink all ships within six hours Face the “use of whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands.” The calm before the storm - Le Terrible is in the foreground, the time of the picture is about 1400. Mogador can be seen moving towards the harbor entrance. French battleships can be seen at roughly Le Terrible's 11-o'clock Negotiations wore on (I won't go into detail - the point of this thread is not to debate the choices made by either admiral & government at Mers-el-Kébir), and eventually the British informed the French that if no agreements were reached by 1730, they would settle matters for them. At 1730, the French destroyers cast off, while the British battleships and battlecruiser, all with 15” guns, took up position, and Ark Royal flew off a strike force. At 1754 and a range of 17500 yards (16 km), the 15” guns of the British battle-line roared into action. The French admiral, upon visually observing the salvoes being fired, ordered the French ships into action. The destroyers were already forming up, but the battleships were still attempting to cast off. Provence was the first to return fire at 1758, her gunnery officer the best-scoring officer in fleet gunnery exercises. The 340mm shells roared right over Dunkerque’s superstructure to land nearby the Hood. The range being as close as it was, aim was easy and it was not long before she straddled the massive battlecruiser, causing splinter damage. French shore batteries also engaged. Unfortunately for the French, it as just as Dunkerque was casting off that the British started hitting, with their third salvo. The first rounds glancing off her B turret, in what shouldn’t have been a major hit... but due to the French use of Face-Hardened armor on the turret roof of the small battleship, the impact threw splinters out on both ends of the armor plate, disabling the guns in the turret and also destroying Provence’s main rangefinders, ending her ability to effectively control her fire. Other rounds in salvo over-penetrated Dunkerque's aircraft hangar, and further rounds punched into the battleship Bretagne, sparking a devastating magazine explosion that blew the aft part of the ship apart. As if that wasn’t enough, Mogador, who had been leading the line of French destroyers (Le Terrible being fourth in line), took a hit aft from a 15” shell that triggered her depth charges, blowing the stern of the ship apart. She veered off and anchored in the harbor, rendered combat ineffective. The remains of Mogador's stern, blown apart by the explosion of her depth charges Two minutes later, further rounds struck Dunkerque, two punching through the thin 229mm armor belt. The first round landed in the handling room of one of the 130mm turrets, but fortunately failed to explode. The other shell detonated in a boiler room, and cut off electrical power, disabling the battleship. She had fought briefly but furiously, expending 40 rounds attempting to hit the Hood, but failed to due to the smoke hampering her rangefinders. At 1803, the destroyer Volta burst from the smoke of the harbor into the open sea, Le Terrible hot on her heels, both ships making 40 knots. They fired sporadically at the British destroyers, 15 km away, who were totally surprised by the appearance of the French warships and opted to flee instead. However, this was the only good news to be had. As Dunkerque drifted clear, Provence took several hits and burst into flame, flooding heavily to boot. Not long after Bretagne capsized with heavy loss of life (almost 90% of her crew), and the crippled Dunkerque beached herself, having lost 15% of her crew. All the French battleships had been accounted for – all but one. The lone Strasbourg had made her way across the harbor at 15 knots, salvoes dropping in her wake, and then broke out of the harbor at 1809, increasing speed to 28 knots. By the time the British realized she was escaping, it was too late. The British admiral brought Hood around in a sprint at 1820 with the cruisers and destroyers, quickly losing the other two battleships, and ordered Swordfish to attack the French battleship. Volta and Le Terrible, screening to the rear of the fleeing French battleship, uncorked a spread of torpedoes at 1840, set to run 22,000 yards (20.1 km), and two more destroyers copied their move at 1900. Neither spread had a hope of hitting, but they were only intended to dissuade pursuers, not score hits. The French had escaped the British surface units, Le Terrible having fired six torpedoes and ninety-nine 138.6mm shells. Airstrikes would follow, but none were successful, and the French fleet was able to make Toulon without further damage, joined by other scattered elements of the French fleet. The events of Operation Catapult had cost the French two battleships destroyed, one captured, one crippled, plus three more heavy cruisers captured, with scattered losses or capturing of destroyers and light cruisers. While elements of the French forces, including 10th DCT, were sent to Dakar to protect to incomplete battleship Richelieu, Le Terrible did not join them, and missed the events of Operation Menace and the Battle of Dakar on the 23rd of September, where the heavy cruiser HMAS Australia disabled and forced the grounding of Le Terrible’s sister L’Audacieux. On the 26th of February 1941 she was sent to Dakar to replace the loss of her sister, and thus rejoined the 10th DCT. Her life was then blissfully quiet for the remaining 10 months of the year. She would leave again for Toulon for a maintenance cycle on the 31st of December until the 14th of June 1942. 18 May 1942. Le Terrible is on post-refit trials out of Toulon Being so far removed from the rest of the French fleet at Dakar actually worked in Le Terrible’s favor. The two other major concentrations of French warships were Casablanca and Toulon. With Operation Torch (the Allied invasion of Vichy French North Africa), the French forces at Casablanca was destroyed in action against American warships in the Naval Battle of Casablanca, while the German incursion of Vichy territory in France led to the mass-scuttling of the French fleet at Toulon. With the end of the Vichy Regime, the remaining French ships went in for the Allies, forming the FNFL (Free French Naval Forces), and ships captured by the British during Operation Catapult or interned by the American were returned to the French. Back on the Allied Side & Charleston Refit On the 3rd of January 1943, Le Terrible and Le Fantasque were inspected by a USN Admiral so that a list of repairs and modernizations could be drafted. They left Dakar for Casablanca on the 24th, arriving four days alter and dropping off the entirety of their anti-aircraft armament. On the 1st of February they joined a convoy going to the USA, and went across the Atlantic to arrive in New York City on the 13th. On the 20th they left for Boston, arriving the next day. Sent to the Charleston Navy Yard, the two sisters would receive substantial modification. Le Terrible was in refit until the 22nd of May, and had her machinery overhauled. Numerous pieces of equipment was replaced, including the high-pressure condensers, which were swapped for low-pressure versions. Her diesel generators were also replaced by American models. On top of the light AA already shed, Le Terrible also lost her amidships torpedo mount, reducing her torpedo broadside to just three torpedoes. A quadruple Bofors 40mm mount would be placed between the No.3 & No.4 138.6mm gun mounts, with two twin 40mm mounts in tubs abreast the second funnel. Eight single 20mm Oerlikons were also included, four abreast the superstructure fore, two abreast the aft guns, and two on the platform aft of the second funnel. Le Terrible arrives in Boston, 21 February 1943 Each 40mm mount was given an American Mk.51 AA director, and the bridge was rebuilt to accommodate a radar plot for the fitted SF surface search and SA air search radar. An Alpha 128 ASDIC sonar system was installed, usable below 25 knots, as well as a degaussing cable to counter magnetic mines. In exchange, not only did her centerline torpedo tubes have to be landed, but so did her torpedo rangefinder (atop her main gun director), the reserve 5-meter Stereoscopic rangefinder, and boats and associated cranes were landed in exchange for rafts. Despite these losses, she still came out of refit some 410 tons heavier, giving her a new ‘normal’ displacement of 3250 tons. Although the Americans recommended she land her No.3 gun, the French refused. She ran trials starting on the 13th of May, and Le Terrible proved herself still able to make 37 knots despite her heavier state – truly an impressive performance! Le Terrible's sister, Le Fantasque, running trials from Boston to Cape Cod after her Charleston refit, still able to make up to 37 knots. 13 June 1943 FNFL Service Le Terrible’s first missions after modernization sent her to the Caribbean in July, as French islands there began to rally to the Free French cause. She stopped in Martinique on the 14th of July, and Guadeloupe the day after. She went back to Martinique, and finally on the 30th left to cross the Atlantic once again, arriving in Dakar on the 5th of August. She left for Algiers on the 9th and arrived on the 15th, joining her sister Le Fantasque once more, and 10th DCT was re-formed. On the evening of the 20th, the two French destroyers embarked on their first combat operation, sent to raid Scalea, on the northwest coast of Calabria. Their mission was to bombard German headquarters in the town, but was interrupted by the attack of Italian MAS boats (fast attack craft) – however, neither side suffered any damage, and the French destroyers returned on the morning of the 21st. The two sisters were subsequently attached to the screen British Force H, and were assigned to the covering of the Salerno landings. Force H’s mission that day was to guard against intervention of the Italian battlefleet, and consisted of the carriers Illustrious and Formidable, and the battleships Nelson, Rodney, Valiant, and Warspite. Including the French destroyers, fourteen destroyers acted as their screen. On the early morning of the 9th of September, 1943, the Italian battlefleet was raising steam in the their main base of La Spezia, preparing for a final ‘do-or-die’ attack on the landings. The mission called for the commitment of the battleships Italia, Vittorio Veneto, and Roma accompanied by six light cruisers, ten destroyers, and five torpedo boats. At the cost of air defense in the Northern Tyrrhenian, the fleet was to have full air cover from Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe fighters. Such a clash would have been the largest naval action fought in Europe since the Battle of Jutland, larger even than the Battle of Calabria three years earlier. However, this attack never came due to the Armistice of Cassibile, and instead numerous battles would be fought between Italian and German forces across the peninsula. For the destroyers of 10th DCT, their only action would come from defending against air attacks. Released back into French control after returning to Algiers, they departed again on the 13th to conduct raids on Ajaccio in Corsica, attacking twice before Le Terrible had to be taken out of action due to turbine failure. The fragile turbines of the class, now that they were finally seeing regular service, became a major issue for the French destroyers. On the 28th, they were re-designated as light cruisers, which gave them higher priority for maintenance and replenishment than other allied destroyers. Their division was thus re-designated as the 10th DCL. However, due to the fragile nature of their propulsion, the ships spent significant time out of action while repairs were conducted, finally finished on the 17th of October. Their first mission was to escort the now-completed battleship Richelieu from the Azores to Mers-el-Kébir, which was completed successfully. They were then reassigned to accompany the British light cruiser Phoebe on raids into the Aegean in late November, but aside from downing an aircraft were unable to make contact with any Axis ships. In February 1944, the 10th DCL was transferred to a port north of Manfredonia in Puglia and reinforced by the Le Malin, in order to launch raids into the Adriatic. Being fast but still well armed, the Le Fantasque’s were perfect for launching night attacks on German coastal shipping. On the night of the 27th, Le Terrible ventured north with Le Fantasque, but found nothing. The next night she stayed in port while her sisters hunted fruitlessly. However, on the night of the 29th she ventured out again, this time with Le Malin, at 1345, after hearing that a German convoy had left Pola at 1245, bound for Piraeus in Attica (north-west Greece). It centered around a freighter escorted by two torpedo boats, two corvettes, and three minesweepers. What followed was Le Terrible’s second surface action of her career, known as the Battle off Ist. Le Terrible in Manfredonia, March 1944 The two French destroyers, with Le Terrible being the flagship under command of Commander Pierre Lancelot, had just passed Ist some nine hours after leaving Manfredonia, when Le Terrible’s radar picked up contacts bearing due north at 18,600 yards (17 km). Lancelot immediately increased speed to 30 knots, the maximum possible gunnery speed of his ships, and made contact about ten minutes later. At 2144 and at range of 8,750 yards (8 km) both destroyers unleashed their 200-kilogram broadsides on the German ships, Le Terrible targeting the freighter while Le Malin engaged the escorts. The German ships immediately returned fire and began to make smoke. Le Malin’s shooting was much better than her sister’s, hitting the torpedo boat TA37 on her second salvo, while Le Terrible only finally hit her target at 2148, after closing the range to 4500 yards (4.1 km). However, both ships quickly left their targets blazing, and Le Terrible let lose a spread of torpedoes, scoring a hit on the freighter at 2157. Le Malin moved northwest, and encountering the corvette UJ201, tore her up with shells and uncorked her own torpedoes. Like Le Terrible, one ran right into her target, causing a magazine detonation that utterly annihilated the 670-ton corvette. TA37 suffered another hit into her engine room, cutting her speed to 10 knots, and TA36 also suffered damage. However, as the minesweepers moved to rescue survivors from UJ201, Lancelot mistook them for MTB’s, and disengaged, unwilling to fight fast attack craft in a melee. The two destroyers made good their escape totally undamaged, leaving the freighter ground to a halt and ablaze, TA37 burning heavily, and a corvette sunk. The 6,311 GRT freighter would later sink. Le Terrible and Le Fantasque would sortie again on the 2nd of March to hunt for targets in the gulf of Venice, but due to a lack of targets the operation was cancelled. Another operation near Trieste was conducted on the night of the 4th, but was likewise unsuccessful. With the Adriatic empty of targets for the time being, the efforts of 10th DCL was re-directed towards Greece and the Aegean, and the two ‘cruisers’ sortied on the 7th to bombard German positions on the Greek island of Zakynthos. They carried out a final patrol on the 15th into the Adriatic but encountered nothing, but on the 19th were sent to Navarino, encountering four German ‘Seibel Ferries’ (essentially catamarans with 8.8cm and 20mm cannons stuck onto it, used as AA barges, landing craft, or transports) and an MFP landing craft. The action was far from even, two of the Seibel Ferries being sunk and the other two being crippled, although 20mm fire damaged both French ships, wounding one man on Le Terrible and eight on Le Fantasque. After dropping off their wounded at Malta and undergoing a brief refit, 10th DCL transferred to Alexandria in Egypt, and through May, launched a series of fruitless raids into the Aegean. After further maintenance in Alexandria, 10th DCL minus Le Malin transferred back to the Adriatic, and finally encountered the enemy again on the night of June 16th, where they sank the oil tanker Giuliana (350 GRT). Another raid was launched on the 25th, but nothing happened except for their fragile propulsion systems catching up to them. Le Malin had to be left behind in the first place because her port shaft had to be removed. On the June 25th mission Le Fantasque’s own port shaft suffered severe vibration issues limiting her top speed to 25 knots. Le Terrible also began developing issues, and all three ships of 10th DCL had to be sent to Bizerte for repairs. In August, the 10th DCL (minus Le Malin’s port shaft) would join a force comprising of virtually all of France’s surviving cruisers and destroyers in Operation Dragoon, the Allied invasion of Southern France. The landings took place on the 15th, and Le Terrible bombarded Saint-Aygulf, expending 158 HE rounds. Later that night she provided fire support for allied troops advancing towards Cannes, but soon Allied troops advanced beyond the range of available naval guns. On the 1st of October Le Fantasque and Le Terrible escorted Richelieu into Toulon, the first time a Free French battleship entered the port since the Fall of France. Le Terrible and Le Malin then underwent refit in Toulon followed by maintenance in Bizerte. However, soon after departing for Toulon, disaster struck. On a night exercise, Le Malin’s bows slammed into the side of Le Terrible at 26 knots, killing 62 men in the bow of the destroyer, which broke off and sank. Eight other men would die, and Le Terrible’s hull was badly damaged for a length of 27 meters (a fifth of the entire ship’s length) and breeched in four separate areas. With the engine rooms and aft boiler room flooded, the damage to Le Terrible was heavy, and took her out of the war. She would be repaired at Bizerte, her badly damaged port-side 40mm twin mount replaced by two singles, and she also gained the addition of a British Type 285P4 affixed to the top of her main battery director for anti-aircraft gunnery. After her 1945 refit. Her new AA fire control radar can be seen atop her director Post-War Service She was finally re-commissioned on 1 January 1946, well after the end of the war. On the 26th, she returned to Toulon, and in May she and Le Malin embarked on a ‘show-the-flag’ mission to Northern Europe. In January of 1947 all surviving members of the class were grouped into the 10th DCL, typically with two of the four ships being active at any given time. Le Terrible and Le Malin participated in fleet exercises from April to May, and then in January of 1948 the 10th was re-designated into the 1st DCL. Le Terrible would participate in exercises again that year with Le Triomphant, but would be deactivated in July, and officially went into reserve on the 15th of March 1950. The ships would finally drop the ‘light cruiser’ designation in July of 1951, and instead became ‘Escort Destroyers 1st Class’. In May of 1952 she underwent a major refit in Toulon, and also replaced her two single 40mm mounts for a new twin mount, and returned to Toulon in 1953, now re-designated as a ‘Fast Escort’ (escorteur rapide). She spent the latter part of May and early June on a cruise in the eastern Mediterranean, and later that June joined the escort force of the carrier La Fayette (Originally the American Independence-class light carrier Langley) until February 1954. She then operated with Belleau, also an Independence, until August, and rejoined La Fayette the next month until February 1955. Le Terrible pictured not long after her 1952/53 refit From there she transferred to the screen of Arromanches, an ex-British Colossus-class light carrier, and in August was transferred to Brest. She made port on the 28th, and was decommissioned on the 1st of September. She then served as a training ship, put into special reserve in December of 1956, and was finally stricken on June 29th, 1962. Le Terrible was broken up for scrap in 1963 at Brest, ending a 30-year life. Reflections So just how successful was the Le Fantasque-class? Like so many ships in WWII, these ships operated in very different roles than they were intended to. As they were designed, they still reflected the ideas of the linage of previous contre-torpilleurs – fast and well armed in order to fight Italian esploratori and smaller destroyers – but were made faster and fitted with even more powerful guns in order to fight the larger esploratori of the Giussano-class. As the naval war with Italy never developed, we never got to see such intended combat roles displayed. However, some of her wartime career does illustrate her strengths and weaknesses. For one, her speed and firepower did translate into a fearsome weapon. The class was not shy at all in regards to demonstrating their speed, able to make up to 40 knots after completed, and still hit 37 knots after their American refits! Their speed meant they were able to get relatively heavy firepower (for a destroyer) into combat in areas other destroyers would not be expected to appear, which lead to instances of great surprise. For example, at Mers-el-Kébir, where the sudden appearance of French contre-torpilleurs firing wildly put the British destroyers screening the harbor entrance to flight, which allowed Strasbourg to slip out initially undetected. The Battle off Ist was another good example – the Germans did not expect the Allies to be able to send destroyers up the Adriatic so far, and the appearance of Le Terrible and Le Malin caught the Germans totally by surprise. Their heavy firepower allowed them to dominate in the brief engagement, and then flee so as to maintain the cover of night on their return. However, against cruisers this was a very different story – at the Battle of Dakar, the heavy cruiser Australia wrecked the L’Audacieux with a single salvo (this salvo being the third salvo), forcing her to beach heavily aflame – the destroyer was never recovered. This was reflected by other classes of Contre-Torpilleurs, such as the Engagement off Sidon, where two Guépard-class destroyers engaged a force of four British destroyers, their superior firepower crippling one and leaving another slight damaged in exchange for a single hit, and then breaking off the action before the two non-engaged British destroyers could join the action. However, in the following two actions (1st & 2nd Encounter off Beirut) the British had light cruisers on their side, and the French could not repeat their prior results. In the two battles of Oran during Operation Torch, the British light cruiser Aurora demolished a force of several French destroyers, albeit these were ‘regular’ destroyers, not the contre-torpilleur ‘super-destroyers’. As excellent as their speed and firepower was, their reliability proved to be considerably less attractive. The turbines of the ships never quite behaved, but the severity of this issue was disguised for their early career simply by the fact these ships weren’t very active. However, after the fall of the Vichy Regime and the entry of many of those ships into FNFL service, they started seeing regular service… and then their true colors started to shine through. Time between refits was brief, and the propulsion system took them out of action repeatedly. Were it not for the great resources of the Allied Powers, this would have been a far more severe concern. So, all that aside, one obvious question nags - how would things have gone down if they went… well, as intended? Contre-Torpilleur versus Esploratori? We'll break down the three scenario's below; Contre Torpilleur versus Esploratore Leggere (Le Fantasque versus Navigatori) Contre Torpilleur versus Esploratore Grande (Le Fantasque versus Giussano) Contre Torpilleur versus Esploratore Oceanico (Le Fantasque versus Capitani Romani) Assessment of the Comparisons All in all, things settle in a decent place for the Le Terrible and her sisters. Improved versions of previous contre-torpilleurs, she was more than capable of defeating the esploratori leggeri they had been designed to counter. In regards to fighting the first generation of ‘Condottieri’ cruisers, the Giussano-class ‘esploratori grandi’, she was designed to counter, Le Terrible makes the fight surprisingly close given it’s a destroyer versus cruiser (even if it is a very large destroyer versus a very small cruiser). While 1-on-1 does not necessarily favor a Le Fantasque, by all means the envisioned 3-on-1 scenario (however unlikely it may have been) the Marine Nationale intended should have resulted in a victory for the their DCT’s… although in the face of more realistic doctrines (Italian light cruisers operating in pairs) and more improved versions (the Cadorna-class, and the later first ‘true’ light cruisers of the RM like Montecuccoli-class) this is less likely. Still, they do form an appropriate counter. Against the small cruisers designed to kill them (Capitani Romani), the Le Fantasque’s fare very poorly, but that is to be expected given the technological and displacement gap - so it’s hard to fault the French destroyers in that regard. Overall, because of that the Le Fantasque overall fares well compared to the Italian esploratori types. Final Thoughts All in all, the Le Fantasque-class can be described as partially successful. While the Marine Nationale did succeed in creating a fast platform with a powerful armament, this came at a high cost. Between the vibration issues and lack of RPC, these two attributes could not be combined in use at the same time, greatly diminishing their value. Furthermore, the relatively unreliable nature of their shell hoists and loading conditions hindered the efficiency of their main armament even in relatively good conditions. Thus offensively they had considerable limitations in spite of their domineering capabilities on paper. Operationally they also proved rather fragile, not only in hull wear due to steel quality issues, but also the wear inflicted on their turbines, which greatly limited their availability in practice - this stood in stark contrast to the heavy abuse suffered by the turbines of Italian or British destroyers. Likewise, operational range remained poor for a ship of their size, not appreciably greater than the considerably smaller Italian destroyers, and inferior to esploratori of all types. At the core of the matter, these ships could never have sustained the high-intensity operations that typified the service lives of destroyers in the Mediterranean during the Second World War, and their useful lives would rapidly be exhausted in the type of operational tasks Italian and British destroyers conducted during the conflict. Much was sacrificed for the sake of high speed, and for heavy and effective firepower on a destroyer hull. As the Italians learned through the harsh lessons of the Giussano-class, this is a disastrous combination, leading the ships to be unable to effectively engage in the tasks normally demanded of their rate, and furthermore poorly suited to the task for which they were designed. In every sense of the expression the Le Terrible and her sisters embodied the Laozi quote “The flame that burns Twice as bright burns half as long” - they could briefly let their weight be known with their high speed and heavy broadsides, but that could only last so long as ready ammunition was exhausted, and their ability to operate at all limited by the fragility of their turbines. While a threat to destroyers, against proper cruisers they were at considerable disadvantage, once again proving that balanced designs always work better than ones that sacrifice one aspect heavily to feed another. They were potent combatants, but for every one of their virtues they had considerable vices. In that way, they were very much the French equivalent to the Italian Giussano-class they were designed to counter - concepts that demanded to much of the premature technology available at the time. Had they come five years later, they perhaps would have been far more potent combatants than they were as built, or even moreso than the Mogador-class. They came just before the wave of ships utilizing higher-quality steels, that allowed stronger hulls with less materials used. The advantages of this are exemplified best by the heavy cruiser Algérie - she was the same standard displacement as the other French heavy cruisers, but her hull structure was only 75-80% the mass of her predecessors, allowing her quadruple the amount of armor carried compared to them! This was also helped by the development of lighter machinery, which the Le Fantasque-class had already benefited from. In any case, regardless of how optimized the Le Fantasque-class was for the realities of service, if nothing else it cannot be doubted that they acquitted themselves well in action, and lead the charge for the forces of the Marine Nationale on multiple occasions. When they were needed, they were present, even if it was in spite of their moody turbines! While most of Le Terrible's career saw her in action in the Mediterranean, with some Atlantic excursions, her sisters operated everywhere, from the Caribbean to the English Channel, and from Indochina to the Adriatic. It is not for nothing that the Le Fantasque-class, and Le Terrible, remain some of the most well-known of the French superdestroyers, and for that matter are some of the best-known French warships as a whole.
  22. Battle of Jutland We will try this on this next coming Friday on Dec 7th 12/7/18. 9:30-11:30PM US Eastern standard time , 8:30-10:30 PM US CENTRAL TIME, 7:30-9:30 PM US MOUNTAIN TIME, 6:30-7:30 PM US PACIFIC TIME , 11:30AM -1:30 PM in Sydney Australia 9:30 AM - 11:30 AM in Perth Australia. This will be in the training room labeled "battle of jutland". search for training rooms by Outwardpanicjoe. if anyone is interested in helping to make new events or suggestions feel free to join the workshop discord https://discord.gg/ygjyP2G the event for this will be in the same discord for voice. TRAILER V General rules for the event: Try to stay in a battle line formation as much as possible. Battleships/battlecruisers will be using AP only. Each team will have 2 commanders of the line one in the lead and one to the rear of each battle line. If one of the commanders is taken out of the battle, the ship next in line takes command as flag ship. Chapter 2 - The Grand Battle UK mission- The battlecruisers are on the retreat intercept the german fleet and engage them from a battle line and surround the german fleet and pumble them into submission. Attempt to sink the rest of the German navy before they can try to escape to the map border. UK ships- 10 battleships and 2 other classes. 3 Queen Elizabeth classes including Warspite, 3 Orion class BBs , 2 Iron Dukes, 2 Bellerophon's, and 2 Other can either be a tier 2 dd or a tier 2 cruiser for spotting and supporting fire and smoke support no torpedos. Kaiserliche Marine Mission- Form a battle line and intercept the Grand Fleet. Try to sink 3-4 ships, or just inflict more casualties than the royal navy has before trying to retreat and avoid getting crossed by the T. Kaiserliche Marine Ships- 9 battleships and 3 other types of ship. 3 Konigs, 3 Kaisers, 3 Nassaus. And 3 other types, being tier 2-3 cruisers and DDs for spotting and artillery support and smoking support Torpedoes may only used in a fleet retreat and is limited to 1 reload. here are some pictures from the last event V