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Fr05ty's ADLA attempt: Veinticinco de Mayo class Heavy Cruiser
Fr05ty posted a topic in Player Feature and Gameplay SuggestionsHello and welcome again! Yet again I'm copying dseehafer (with his permission) to post an ADLA based on his format. I'll be doing a ship from our (Argentine) navy! Remember that this is just a study on how to implement the Veinticinco de Mayo class Heavy Cruisers (Just an FYI, I actually like the name Almirante Brown class better) in the game. As always, I know that this might prove controversial and opinions will be split. Everybody's welcome to comment, critique and provide their opinions but please just keep it civil Veinticinco de Mayo class Heavy Cruiser Figure 1 - ARA Almirante Brown The Veinticinco de Mayo class of Heavy Cruisers were the only heavy cruisers built for a South American navy after the implementation of the Washington Naval Treaty. The Veinticinco de Mayo class was meant to address the need of the Argentine Navy for newer cruisers to match its destroyer and battleship forces. Three vessels of the Veinticinco de Mayo class were funded but only 2 ordered and laid down in 1927. They were both commissioned into the Argentine Navy in July 1931. Interestingly, despite the ARA Almirante Brown being the first one laid down by over 6 weeks, the class is named after the second ship in the class, the ARA Veinticinco de Mayo whose name means “25th of May”, the date of the start of Argentina’s fight for independence. Built as smaller versions of the Trento class of Italian cruisers, the Veinticinco de Mayo class were much lighter than other heavy cruisers of the time and mounted quite a few unique features. Whereas other heavy cruisers of the time mounted 8” guns, the Veinticinco de Mayo class mounted 7.5” guns instead and had its torpedo launchers fixed upon the main deck. Their secondary batteries also mounted a gun model custom made for this class. The Veinticinco de Mayo class were quite light for heavy cruisers and mounted an armour layout more in common with light cruisers than with heavy cruisers. They also carried a catapult and two planes for spotting duty. None of the cruisers of the Veinticinco de Mayo class saw combat, being kept to protect Argentina’s neutrality and sovereignty during the war. Throughout their lifetimes they were refitted with improved AA guns and radar. They were scrapped in 1960 (ARA Veinticinco de Mayo) and 1962 (ARA Almirante Brown). The Veinticinco de Mayo class Heavy Cruiser would have to be implemented as unique cruisers. I have done the following analysis assuming that the Veinticinco de Mayo class would be slotted in the game as a Tier 5 premium Cruiser for the South American Powers Navy and with her 1945 armament. This tiering is dependent on WG deciding to implement the ship with its torpedo tubes. Weight 9,000 tonnes – 26,570 HP This would mark it as a tier 5 cruiser, being lighter than the Furutaka, the Omaha and its derivatives and the Kirov while being heavier than the Profintern and the Konigsberg. If anything, it’s a bit on the light side for its HP. Armour Belt: 70mm Bulkheads: 60-40mm Turrets: 50mm Deck: 25mm Conning Tower: 65mm The Veinticinco de Mayo class was derived from the Italian Trento class, however it boasts much lighter armour, more akin to that of a light cruiser than that of a heavy cruiser. The armour is actually pretty decent for the tier, being only slightly worse than the Omaha or the Furutaka, allowing you to bounce 6” AP fire if you angle properly. At tier 5, cruiser armour is universally bad, but the Veinticinco de Mayo has terrible deck armour so beware of plunging fire. It’s a workable armour scheme and decent for tier 5. Main Battery 3x2 190mm/52 Odero-Terni (7.5”) guns The Veinticinco de Mayo class Heavy Cruiser has only 6 guns housed in 3 twin turrets. The guns themselves would not seem to be anything extraordinary if we just looked at their caliber since the Furutaka carries the same number of guns but of a larger caliber, however the ballistic performance of these guns is amazing. The 190mm/52 Odero-Terni guns fire a 90.7kg (200lb) shell at a speed of 950m/s. They had a range of over 27km which is quite long and their ROF was between 3 and 5 rounds per minute. The ROF would be the main point that could be adjusted to fit the tier, but a ROF of 4.5 wouldn’t be out of place at this tier. The shells themselves are lighter than those used by the Kirov’s 180mm guns but with the muzzle speed of 950m/s it is going to have a flat arc and great penetration. The AP shells would have a damage of 4,300 according to the AP shell damage formula. These are accurate, deadly and long-ranged but the weight of fire for the Veinticinco de Mayo isn’t amazing. Secondary Battery 6x2 102mm/40 Odero-Terni (4”) DP guns The Veinticinco de Mayo class has a pretty good secondary battery with three twin turrets on each broadside. The guns themselves are nothing to get too excited about, they have a decent ROF of 8-10 rounds/min, firing a 13.8kg shell at 850m/s to a range of up to 15km. The three turrets to each broadside would give it a secondary battery that compares favourably to most of the cruisers in tier 5. They also fire HE shells and might help whittle down a bit of health from destroyers if they stray too far. Torpedo Battery 2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes (Si 270/533.4 x 7.x “M” Italian torpedoes) The Veinticinco de Mayo class had two triple torpedo launchers, one on each side and located towards the aft section of the main deck. The torpedo arcs would be terrible as they were fixed to fire abeam so you’re not going to be surprising anybody with them. The torpedoes themselves would likely be 533mm Italian torpedoes. They’d have a damage of 13,400 and a range of 4km at a speed of 66kts or a range of 8km at a speed of 55 kts. They’re good torpedoes for the tier, but they won’t do much due to the fixed position of the torpedo tubes. NOTE: Wargaming have not included torpedoes on any ship where they are fixed. This review is done assuming that they’d include the Veinticinco de Mayo with the fixed torpedoes, or at least with a +5/-5 degree arc. AA Battery 6x2 102mm/40 Odero-Terni (4”) DP guns (48dps @5km) *, 4x2 40mm/60 Bofors Mk 1 (44dps @3.5km) The AA complement is rather good for tier 5, only being weaker than the Murmansk’s and comparable to the Kirov’s. The Veinticinco de Mayo’s AA complement would be quite effective due to the concentration of fire towards its long-range aura and the mid-range aura. It lacks a close-in aura to take down bombers, but with the good DPS and use of Defensive Fire then the Veinticinco de Mayo becomes capable of escorting ships and protecting itself from aircraft. Don’t expect to swat too many aircraft out of the sky though, it’s still a tier 5 ship’s AA. DISCLAIMER: The AA values for the weapons with asterisks (*) on them are guesstimations that I’ve done based on the ballistics of those weapons compared to a similar weapon in-game. The 102mm gun values are based off of the 102mm/45 QF Mk XIX used by the RN but with gimped performance. Speed 32 kts – 85,000hp The Veinticinco de Mayo class would be among the slowest cruisers in Tier 5, only being faster than the Krasny Krym. It is half a knot slower than the Konigsberg and over 2 knots slower than any of the other cruisers. In terms of maneuverability it is not great either. Consumables The Veinticinco de Mayo class would have the standard consumables of Hydroacoustic Search or Defensive Fire, and it also has a catapult and two fighter or spotter aircraft. Conclusion The Veinticinco de Mayo class mounts heavy cruiser grade weaponry on a light cruiser frame. While it might seem like the class is light on guns and health, the guns have an amazing performance that would allow the Veinticinco de Mayo to work as a sniper, hitting enemies from afar. It would not be able to brawl and its torpedoes are rather unwieldy since they’re in a fixed position which requires the vessel to show its broadsides to launch them. The Veinticinco de Mayo also mounts a rather decent AA complement that allows it to work as an escort for battleships, protecting them from airstrikes while using its powerful long-range firepower to engage enemies. In conclusion, the Veinticinco de Mayo class would offer a ship that’s more similar to a scalpel than a sledgehammer, carefully attacking with powerful and accurate barrages to take out its enemies instead of drowning them with weight of fire. Additionally, it isn’t quick enough to escape from other cruisers and must carefully engage or engage at long range if it wants to survive. The inclusion of the Veinticinco de Mayo class however hinges on Wargaming deciding to include it with its torpedoes, otherwise it’d be an odd duck that’s too light for tier 5 and too powerful for tier 4. Pros Great gun performance Good AA Great range Strong torpedoes Decent armour Cons Mediocre agility Few guns Fixed torpedo arcs Low health Figure 2 - ARA Almirante Brown (1931) Figure 3 - ARA Veinticinco de Mayo (1945)
A detailed look at SMS Blucher
dseehafer posted a topic in Battleship EraGreetings all, Today we shall be looking at Germany's last armored cruiser the SMS Blucher. Germany built the Blucher to counter the new Armored cruisers rumored as being built by the British, the Germans expected this new ship to be armed with 6 or 8 230mm guns, so they designed the Blucher to have 12 210mm guns, significantly more powerful than Germany's last Armored cruisers of the Schnarnhorst class which only carried 8 210mm guns. When the Germans learned of the true details of these new British ships, called Invincible class, and that they were to be armored with 12" battleship guns, they realized that the Invincible class was a completely new type of warship, soon to be known as battlecruisers. By the time the Germans learned of this it was too late to turn back, and construction of the Blucher took place as scheduled. Really the Blucher was more of a Hyper-Armored cruiser rather than a true armored cruiser because of it immense offensive capabilities, but they also werent quite battlecruisers, so the Germans called them Armored cruisers in an attempt to conceal their true power. Blucher was built at a cost of $28,532,000. Commisioned in 1909 she began her career in 1911 as a gunnery training ship before being transfered to the 1st Scouting Group with 3 Battlecruisers. The fleet began an inconclusive sweep of the Baltic in search of Russian forces. Then on September 3rd 1914 The Blucher joined a fleet of 7 pre-dreds, 5 cruisers and 24 destroyers and sailed into the Baltic in an attempt to draw out the Russian fleet and destroy it. One of the German cruisers spotted 2 Russian armored cruisers and attempted to lure them back to the Blucher so she could destroy them, the Russians refused to take the bait and instead withdrew to the Gulf of Finland. Seeing no other Russian ships the operation was cancelled and the German fleet turned back. Blucher then joined a group of 3 battlecruisers and 4 cruisers and headed out to bombard the British port of Yarmouth and to lay a minefield there. The British Submarine D5 attempted to stop the bombardment but struck a mine and was sunk. After having completed the minefield and the bombardment the German group turned back for German waters. Heavy fog rolled in which led to one of the cruisers striking 2 mines and quickly sinking. It was decided that another raid on the English coast was to be taken out in an attempt to draw out a portion of the British fleet and destroy it. on the 15th of December 1914 the Blucher joined 4 battlecruisers, 4 light cruisers and 2 squadrons of torpedo boats and set off to bombard Scarborough, supported by the Hochseelfotte (high seas fleet) cocnsisting of 14 dreadnoughts, 8 pre-dreds, 2 armored cruisers, 7 light cruisers and 54 torpedo boats. However one of the German cruisers ran aground in the gulf of finland and was captured by the Russian who found German code books and navigational charts and passed them on to the British who learned that the Germans blanned to bombard Scarborough, although it was not known how powerful the force was, and it was believed the the hochseeflotte would remain safely in port (it didnt). The British sent 6 dreadnoughts, 4 battlecruisers and a light cruiser squadron to intercept the German bombardment fleet. On the 15/16th of December the hochseeflotte encountered a British destroyer squadron and in fear of a night time torpedo raid turned back. The German battlecruisers were not notified and continued on to shell the ports of Scarborough, Hartlepool and Whitby. During the bombardment Blucher was hit 6 times by coastal artillery which caused minimal damage but killed 9 men and wounded 3 more. The Germans turned back and escaped to German waters. However when Hipper (who was comanding the battlecruisers) heard about the hochseeflotte's retreat he was furious, because he believed the British destroyer squadron could have been easily eliminated (porbably as the Germans outnumbered the British 7/1). In January 1915 it was learned that the British were conducting recon missions in the dogger Bank area. The Germans sent Blucher along with 3 battlecruisers, 4 light cruisers and 19 torpedo boats to Dogger Bank. The British learned that the Germans were attempting an operation in the Dogger Bank area an assembled a fleet of battlecruisers, light cruisers and destroyers to intercept the Germans. On January 15th The German cruiser kolberg (we have her in game) spotted the British cruiser Aurora and began tading shots, The German battlecruisers and Blucher turned in to support the kolberg when a large amount of smoke was detected on the horizon. The German now knew that a large British fleet was on its way and imediately the Germans turned to retreat but was limmited to just 23kn which was the fastest the Blucher could do in the heavy weather, the persuing British battlecruiser were doing 27kn and quickly caught up and began firing on Blucher which was in the rear, the German battlecruisers turned to support the Blucher which had already been hit several times and focused fire on the lead British Battlecruiser the HMS Lion, which was badly damaged recieving several hits from Blucher herself. More British ships arrived on scene by which time Blucher was already burning and listing heavily to port. The Germans knew they were outnumbered and increased speed, leaving the Blucher behind. Blucher was foucus fired by all of the British ships but she remained stubborn and fought off 4 persuing cruisers and 4 detsroyers before being torpedoed twice by the Aurora at point blank range, by this time all but two of Bluchers main battery guns had been silenced. 7 more torpedoes, launched again from point blank range struck the Blucher. Just then the German Zepplin L5 arrived on scene and mistook the Blucher for a British battlecruiser and proceeded to bomb the already sinking Blucher, the British destroyers, believing they were being bombed fled the scene. In all the Blucher was hit by 70-100 large calibre shells, hundreds of small calibre shells, 9 torpedoes and several bombs, beofre sinking. However the focus fire on the Blucher allowed the much more valuable German battlecruisers to escape, 792 men went down with the Blucher. now Blucher is an armored cruiser, which may put her in lines with other large/ armored cruisers susch as the Alaska and the Deutschland class, these ships may get hitpoints average between a battleship's and a cruiser's, but for this review i will be tiering the Blucher as a cruiser. WEIGHT - 17,500t This puts her at tier 8, weighing just 710t less than the Admiral Hipper and around 3,000t more than Mogami and NO ARMOR Belt: 60-180mm Deck: 50-70mm Turrets: 180mm Armored bridge: 250mm turtleback: 35mm Blucher's armor is very thick, if she was placed in game right now she would easily be the most heavily armored cruiser in the game. MAIN BATTERY - 6x2 210mm (8.3") Blucher can fire 8 of these guns to a broadside, you can expect the shells to do similar damage to the Yorck's guns which are also 210mm. Historically these guns could pump out 6 rounds per minute or once every 10 seconds, this high rate of fire, along with the large size of her shell will give her impressive dpm. SECONDARY BATTERY - 8x1 150mm (5.9") 16x1 88mm Blucher, if placed in game right now, would also have the best secondary firepower of any cruiser in game, boasting a broadside of 4 150mm guns and 8 88mm guns. AA BATTERY - 4x1 88mm out of all 16 of her 88mm guns only 4 are deck mounted on pivot mounts. during wwi there was very little threat from the air, so Blucher didnt need many AA guns, in game however, at tier 8 she would badly wish she had em. SPEED - 25.4kn At tier 8 25.4kn is pathetic, but its was rather impressive for an armored cruiser. CONSLUSION - At first the Blucher seems like an absolute beast, high hitpoints, thickest cruiser armor in the game, large calibre rapid firing main battery guns and an impressive secondary broadside she seems to good to be true, but all of these attributes are balance by her practically non-existant AA battery and her poor speed. She would accel the most against cruisers, her guns are large and fast firing, which would cut through a cruiser's hitpoints rather quicky, and her armor may be tricky for some cruisers to penetrate at an angle, however she will never be ale to dictate the range of her engagements, and would be easy to retreat from. Still you dont want to get too close with all those secondary guns. Again, most likely large and armored cruisers will be tiered differently than the cruisers we have in game, so this review may very well become moot when the first large/ armored cruisers are added. PROS high hitpoints very thick armor large calibre guns quick firing guns great secondary broadside CONS very poor AA very slow Well hope you all enjoyed this one, let me know what you think and as allways, have a good one!