SuperUnicumInBed

My speculation was true.

MvR and FDR are the typical CVs that players use in CBs. Both of which have different playstyles in the competitive atmosphere. MvR has the ability to attack two (or even three) ship groupings due to her speed, and at the same time provide spotting. Since MvR currently has the fastest planes of all CVs she can provide support/spotting to a desired location in a fast period of time. Most players before the AP bomb reticle nerf used MvR a lot more than FDR because of two main reasons 1) FDR is harder to obtain 2) MvR is easier to play than FDR. Now, you do not see MvR used as frequently as before because of the reticle nerf. You have to remember that MvR use to nuke up to 24k unhealable citadel damage which is a big deal for BBs and even more so for CA's. MvR is harder to use to the average player because of the nerf, but still can be powerful given in the right hands. FDR's planes have enormous sums of hp pools per plane plus large plane reserves which means she can bypass huge AA walls and land devastating damage to the desired target. She can tank AA damage from ships such as Halland, Smaland, or Marceau which means she can keep them off caps. The tradeoff is that unlike MvR, FDR's planes are very slow. The top NA Hurricane clans usually run FDR over MvR.

Like this.

:)

I mean, deadeye is going to be replaced with "Swift in silence" which will increase the speed of BBs by 10% while remaining undetected. Sounds cool to me that a BB can reach a spot to settup a crossfire much faster. Plus it buffs BBs that have low concealment, or BBs that are slow (US BBs). Though, this skill is near useless if there is a CV in that game.

That totally depends on the CV player. Some CV players go to J10 and last ones sunk, or they yolo every match like that one greifer who I am not going to say his username. The above is true, but not everyone is a potato either as mentioned by eviltane. A superunicum and a potato CV can still spot which for a CV is one of the easiest things to do (In fact takes no skill other than just flying around). A potato in a CV can provide more spotting than a super unicum in all the other ships classes -- OP is ignoring everything I'm saying while embracing everything else that supports his truth opinion.

It depends by a persons definition of what category planes fall under if it's "Ammunition" or "The object that delivers ammunition". This is my opinion for both categories: Ammunition: Shells Torpedoes Rockets Bombs The object that delivers ammunition: Ships Planes So a players ammunition cannot be shot out of the sky. Planes' ammunition which is plane torpedoes, rockets, and bombs cannot be shot out of the sky. Whereas a ships' ammunition (shells or torpedoes) cannot be shot or destroyed. The planes deliver the ammunition; not the planes themselves are ammunition unless if you're talking about kamikazes which currently are not in the game. Do not confuse planes with ammunition. ---- So by my opinion: Planes are the ones that deliver ammunition instead of being the ammunition themselves. Why do players make a big deal about countering the planes that deliver ammunition? Well its because your automated AA I keep on repeating has no PvP counter to the CV player. Or in a way the CV is playing a PVE game against the victim. The CV player has skill to counter and exploit the victim, but what is unfair is that the victim has no control over preventing the CV to damage/destroy him. - When a ship launches torpedoes its lead on average need a 50 second lead or so? Depending on how far you launch it and how fast the torpedoes are. Whereas a CV needs what? A 3 second lead time, and can attack on average up to three times thus setting up a crossfire on the second run if the ship tries to turn in to mitigate the damage. (Usually up to two times since your AA usually will shoot three of the nine planes depending on CVs skill level plus other variables). If you read what I said a CV does not risk it's ship hp whereas all of the other classes go up to the frontline and shoot targets putting your ship hp in danger. Once your ship hp goes zero; you no longer are in that match and the points on scoreboard goes down. If a CV loses all of it's planes it's still in the match with full ship hp, but can't impact the battle by damage since it ran out of most of its planes. There is one thing a CV can still do is spotting which can be accomplished by a fighter consumable, or by one deck plane. That is not the point, the discussion is CV to ship interaction. Not both teams have one broken mechanic and everyone else has to be pawns to the queens if you know what chess is. I'll use a quote from @piecesofpizza "As one of those super-unicum DD players that has hit that 75% solo WR on Gearing- if you'd like to know why I don't bother playing those types of ships anymore its because someone in a Carrier who would be completely worthless in any other ship class (especially DD) can continually attack and almost guarantee irreparable damage to my ship without any meaningful consequences whatsoever. I'm familiar with how to position against the carrier, dodge carrier strikes and how to make use of friendly anti aircraft but in order to do so I have to effectively play in a manner that removes my impact on the match. If the people who love carriers or think they are fine to play against in surface ships are continually sunk by surface ships on a regular basis they won't notice a difference when the damage source comes from planes rather than artillery or ship torpedoes, but if you are capable of playing well in surface ships the difference is staggering as a CV can guarantee damage on you in ways that no other ship can match. It really doesn't help when CVs have no risk to their ship on top of the damage/spotting they provide. Hilariously enough you see the better CV players actually having an acute awareness of how poorly balanced CVs are relative to other classes." What does this mean? Well it means that a CV can easily outplay a surface ship if the surface ship wants an impact on the battle. I want surface ships and CVs to be balanced. Not one class ruining the battle for the other 22 players.

I mean, you can copy past it and post wherever - I cannot restrict you from making your own decisions. It's good to spread some truth as seen by my perspective. I see players that post "CV BAD!" and leave it at that without reasons or facts backing it up. Or I also see players make a ten second opinion "CV BALANS!" with no facts to back it up either. I also see some players post facts about any argument cherry picking the facts and variables favoring their argument while throwing out facts that are counters to the argument (which I do admit, I might be guilty of that in my argument by accident). All of the information I've provided for my argument was mostly my own experience and experience from other players (like 1nv4d3rZ1m for example). In my opinion, if anyone wants to claim something; they should back it up with sound facts/evidence instead of "CV BAD" or making a 10 second opinion with one vague opinion/fact. Regardless if you love CVs or hate CVs your argument in my opinion must be legit, and also do not attack someone over a video game.

How can I combat CVs in my tier X ships? The unreliable automated AA, bot system that is currently in place takes no skill to me since it is run by itself.

You probably should also add me to that list.

So let me share you my thoughts about CVs since you keep avoiding them, and I have to thank you because the more I lay out the facts about my argument; the more I have to add and update. Plus I have a bit of free time to add on to my argument. CVs do not risk their ship hp pool to affect the outcome of a match. All other classes currently in-game (BBs, CAs, and DDs) risk their hp pool to affect the outcome of the game. Which means CVs can reset caps, deal damage, set up crossfires, spot, and many more things without the destruction of the (ship) CV itself. The only thing that a CV is risking is its planes. It is FAR easier to risk planes rather than the players ability to stay in that battle. When a ship shows broadside it gets punished. The ship that gets punished usually dies or near destruction. When a ship that is non-cv dies, the players presence is no longer in that match. Whereas if a CV squadron somehow runs into a flak cloud destroying the whole squadron the CV player still has a lot of planes still on deck; plus the CV does not lose any ship hp. When a ship gets destroyed the enemy team gets like +40 pts while your teams point score goes down -60 pts or so. A CV that loses a whole squadron of planes does not affect the points on the scoreboard that caps/kills generate. CVs can set up crossfires anywhere on the map at anytime. If you don't know what a crossfire is I'm going to give you an example. Let's say the enemy team lemming trains right down middle. Your teammates on middle flank are either bow tanking or kiting from the enemy. The lemming train is angling to the players on middle flank which mitigates huge sums of damage from your allies on mid flank. You are on right flank which there is no opposition from the enemy on that flank because there is no enemy ships. You then get to the side of the lemming train, and shoot the flat broadsides. The enemy ships within the lemming train are forced to angle towards you, or to your allies on middle flank. In competitive crossfires are EXTREMELY vital. Some may say randoms there is no need to worry about crossfires since its randoms, but SuperUnicums/Unicums or even green players tend to have good map awareness. Which means they read the enemy team's position and whenever they get into a situation (like the example above) they take advantage of it. That is one of the many ways Purple/Blue/Green players are good at randoms and competitive is because they understand how to take advantage of enemy teams mistakes which results in exploiting the enemy team's weaknesses. So back to the argument where CVs can set up crossfires anywhere at anytime; CVs can get to a place within a matter of seconds (usually 30 seconds or more depending on the distance) whereas the regular surface ship need to reach the place to settup the crossfire which is usually a good chunk of the match since the average ship goes 30knots while CV planes can go 150+knots or even well over 200knots. This whole time surface ships are risking their on ship, they're risking of being spotted, and many more things that a CV player does not risk. The reason why it's called a "crossfire" is because CVs have the potential of high alpha strike which means that CVs can deal tremendous amounts of damage over time. A surface ship will try to "Dodge" a cv strike which requires a hard rudder turn, dropping accelerating, and a huge massive maneuver. Let's say you are in a BB; you push into the enemy team while staying angled. You are doing a good job with correct DCP usage, tanking, and ability to predict any enemy torps coming your way. Then before you know it a CV comes out of nowhere, and immediately gets your side. You can either attempt to try mitigating the CV strike, but at the same time showing broadside to the ships in front of you; or you show broadside to CV which deals high alpha to your side, but you angle to the ships in front of you. Either option still result in you being heavily damaged or imminent destruction of your BB. A last point about crossfires is that when a ship sets up a crossfire on the side of your ship; you can use island cover to shield your side to the flankers setting up a crossfire, but a CV can ignore that island cover and strike your broadside regardless if you are trying to use that island for cover. Example: The lemming train example I mentioned earlier; a enemy ship realizes that he is being crossfired by the flanker. The ship then go to a nearby island to shield himself from the flanker's broadside shots, but at the same time can angle/bowtank against the enemy ship on middle flank. A CV that sets up a crossfire can easily exploit this by flying over the island and dropping its payload. CVs does not get its ship punished for making a mistake: I really do not have to explain this because [O7] 1nv4d3rZ1m outlines it perfectly in the following quote: "The other day I was in a charles martel solo defending the cap and I sunk a mino and a yugumo that were trying to capture the base. I was the only player on my team that recognized the threat, even before it happened I pointed out the issue in chat and nobody else bothered to respond. Yet somehow even though the math was not in my favor, even though I was out tiered by both ships, even though they had a good combination to theoretically deal with me with little issue I still sunk them both. How did this happen? They both made mistakes and I was able to capitalize on those mistakes to sink them both. The difference between a cv making a mistake and surface ship making a mistake is that I can punish a surface ship for their mistakes. I get to extract a lb of flesh from the surface ship for their mistake what is the lb of flesh I get from the CV if they make a mistake? Surviving slightly longer? I dont expect most people in this thread to understand or to care. Most pro cv players seem perfectly happy with game mechanics that punish player initiative and the instincts of highly skilled players. We dont get high win rates by depending on our teams, we do it by doing things ourselves which is something that is obsolete when planes are overhead. " How to "Dodge" CV strikes: When you are alone it is possible to try to mitigate damage by either turning in, or turning out. You can do a massive maneuver which mitigates most or all the damage depending on the skill level of the CV player. These maneuvers are possible when a surface ship is alone with only the CV to counter, but its very unrealistic to do so if there is enemy ships in front or beside you forcing you to decide to either let a CV eat a huge chunk of damage out of you, or the surface ships in front of you. You can be alone on your side of the map doing your own thing while the enemy CV is on the other side of the map, but before you know it the CV comes to your side of the map in a matter of seconds setting up a crossfire that I've said multiple times already. AA: AA is run by an automated system WG has put in place. You have to rely on a system that is the same exact system found on a ship commanded by a 45%er and found on the same ship that is commanded by a 70%er. You can increase AA damage by pressing a few keys on your keyboard, but after that you rely on how bad the CV captain is. Your AA takes no skill to shoot down planes. Which means that you have no player control of how to destroy these squadrons. You have to rely on a bot, automated system which is dictated on how skilled the CV player is. A good CV player can easily outplay, and get a hang of how to dodge flak clouds. The outcome of this very unfair engagement is dictated by the CV player. This is probably one of the main reasons why CVs are hated in my opinion is because there is no control the player has over the automated AA in a PvP game. Which feels utterly terrible. Another main reason which I'm about to cover is spotting which is just as bad as the current automated, bot, no PvP skill AA. CVs spotting: Spotting in WoWS is one of the most important factors in this game. You cannot rely on damaging or exploiting your enemies without spotting. CVs can spot it's enemies anytime, anywhere, and whenever taking no skill from the CV player to do so. All the CV player has to do is fly wherever and immediately spot its enemies without risking the CVs hp pool, ability to stay in that match, and also does not really get punished. CVs can easily spot for itself, but at the same time do huge amounts of damage. Meaning that it can spot a cap zone and reset the cap outside of a smokescreen. So let's talk more about vision. Surface ships in WoWs are balanced around a variety of characteristics, but one of the most important was concealment. Vision and vision control were a huge part of surface ship interaction in matches with no CVs and were the primary strengths of DDs as a whole and some cruisers like Minotaur and Zao. With CVs present in every match, keeping constant spotting pressure up with their wide, sweeping attack runs, concealment has essentially ceased to be relevant, to the point that I have removed CE from almost all of my ship builds except very few DDs. The ability of a CV to spot wherever and whenever it pleases, whether by accident or intentionally, entirely kills any form of dynamic play which relied on concealment, such as getting into optimal torpedo positions as a DD or flanking the enemy as a cruiser to catch unsuspecting broadsides. The CV sees all and so does the enemy team. Combined with the ability of CVs to stomp any isolated target into the dirt, matches have devolved into blobby campfests in which the optimal, and only viable, play is to hug your teammates in a deathball and try to outdamage the enemy team in 18km trades. Any CV can spot more better than any other surface ship or class in the game regardless of tier. A tier IV Hosho can spot 10x better than any tier X DD because Hosho planes are more than twice as fast, Hosho planes can be anywhere at anytime, Hosho planes can spot over islands, and Hosho planes can easily spot it's foes without fear of being punished by PvP to PvP interaction. You just fly near to a ship and get your intentional or accidental free, spotting damage that all other classes have 10x harder time of getting. So a tier VI CV can still gain valuable spotting damage that all tier VIII-X non-cvs struggle to get. Tier VI CVs can strike anywhere at any time which means tier VI CVs have unlimited range that all non-cvs do not have unless a Yamato in a tier II map. Tier VI CVs in a tier VIII game can still settup crossfires anywhere at anytime. Tier VIII AA strong against a tier VI CV? Well, that depends on a CV players' skill level. I had a tier VI Ranger teammate who had 500 main account battles, and he believed that tier VIII AA is OP. Of course he believes that because he runs into every flak cloud like mario coins which is one reason among a laundry list of reasons why he believes tier VIII AA is OP. When I play my Weser, and face tier VIII; I don't see the big issue since I invest in all the cmdr skills plus upgrades. The main reason why I do not find an issue is because I had experience playing CVs at a competitive level which means I can outplay the automated, bot system WG has put into place. In a tier VIII game in Weser I still average at least 100k. Conclusions: Since you have 118 battles in a CV, and also judging by your stats in CVs. It is quite obvious you believe AA on tier VIII ships is quite strong, and also the highest tier CV you ever played is Implacable which you have 44 battles in it. I wouldn't make hypothesis on CVs yet. Plus I would never judge tier X CVs in the current meta if you have no battles at all whatsoever in a tier X CV. I mentioned this quick in a earlier point, but I think I need to elaborate it more stressing how frustrating it is. Now, we'll talk about CV - surface ship attack interaction. This is a fundamentally horrible interaction because the only skill affecting the outcome is in the hands of the CV player. Beyond selecting a sector and trying to be near teammates, there is nothing a surface ship can do to affect this beyond praying that the CV is dumb enough to fly into flak. When I play my Hakuryu, it doesn't matter if the target I'm attacking is a 40% potato or 70% superunicum, as the mechanic they fight me with is entirely automatic. Both die just as easily. This is fundamentally frustrating as a surface ship player. Even if you play against a dumb CV and your flak wipes his squadron, it's hardly satisfying as your skill had no part in the result whatsoever. Gameplay-wise, CVs add absolutely nothing positive. Planes will never be anything but frustrating to deal with and a net negative to the game. Both of the issues above were also present in pre-rework CVs, but are much more obvious post-rework due to the massive increase in CV population. At its core, WoWs has excellent gameplay between the three surface classes, especially in competitive settings such as Clan Battles. Ironically, the addition of a 4th class, CVs, serves to detract more from gameplay than they add, as matches become far more passive, drawn out, and stale. It is my belief that the game would be healthier and far more enjoyable without CVs. WG can tweak numbers all they want to try to balance CVs but regardless of how weak or strong they make them, CVs will always be frustrating to play against. Most CV damage is unhealable since most CVs main weapons are torpedoes/AP ammo. (Yes, I know some CVs have HE ammo, but generally speaking in current CV meta). Yeah, there might be some players out there will say "Unhealable is a lie, you can heal 33% citadel damage", but realistically that is unhealable. Realism argument: A argument some people use is "Realism" argument. The realism argument is used to why CVs are the way they are is because in real life CVs are OP. In my opinion this argument is very poor because in real life there wasn't hp bars, etc. etc. In a arcade game balance comes first then realism comes second. This is a arcade, PvP, shooty bote game that is suppose to make it balanced and fun for everyone. If this was a realism game, then your Hood will detonate every time it meets a Bismarck. I laid that out as constructive as possible. My opinion is not going to change on CVs unless if there is a ton of clear evidence that has just as much research as above, and also negates this argument. I am not going to claim the above as "truth" even though in my opinion it is.

Yes me too, whenever someone disagrees with you they immediately become the bad guy.

No point in continuing discussion when one side is here to troll. A troll is someone who doesn't listen to reasoning and would insist on pushing his opinions even when proven wrong. In mentoring some other player discussions, when someone have an incorrect opinion, we mentors correct him/her, and everyone learn from it. But on the forums, there are trolls that simply hold their ears and say "no, I don't care about your facts, I am right and you are wrong"