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NefariousRaven

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  1. I mean yeah, that's the plan, unfortunately DDs are the most mobile ship in the game so you can only play that trick for so long before stealth torps show up. I do agree with your point though that in Brawls BBs have HE loaded, that is one advantage. Randoms is definitely worse. Not well, we're certainly not going to pretend that they compared to USN rockets, especially when we're talking about attacks needing to be self-spotted by the CV, are we? I mean, if you want me to state that some CVs got screwed more here than others, like IJN CVs, then I guess I can agree to that, sure. The across the board nerf that is going to absolutely hurt every single CV though, when CVs weren't even the highest winrate ship. Guessing is blind firing..... except now the DD has 2-3x as much time being invisible to dodge and now reacting to the weapons themselves, which is enough time for them to outright stop and reverse. Right, so we're back to needing the team to kill him, or burning through Consumables which you need to protect your teammates, which means CVs can't effectively fight them alone. If they are going to take away a CV's ability to both spot and strike a DD with rockets, then they need to also increase rocket damage across the board so there is a better reward for the CV if it does managed to succeed in all this new guesswork. Or give CVs more fighters, or a new Recon plane. If we really want to separate spotting and damage then commit to it and actually provide both options proper. As someone that does like to brawl, the game continues to discourage me. Sitting back is literally this game at its most boring, and this nerf to rockets is only going to encourage more sitting back with Cruisers and BBs. Either that or give every ship Radar, then I'll push all day happy as a clam because I can actually respond to everything trying to kill me :)
  2. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    As I said before, a DD wasting it's time running to the back hunting CVs is a bad player, absolutely, and actually a net positive to the CVs team. That is exactly why I think CVs should have a reasonable chance in taking that DD out though, because potatoes don't need to be given guaranteed CV kills for playing wrong, I think that creates perverse incentives in the game rather than encouraging good gameplay. If a DD chases a CV to the back of the map and doesn't help their team, if said DD does so without know how to dodge rockets, honestly they should just get pummeled. Now the incentive is not to suicide run for nothing and waste the time of the rest of your team. When the DD is spotted by someone else on the team, yes, certainly. If it's a lone DD and the CV is the only one spotting it? For the most part, no, they won't be, except for some USN CVs I suppose. Every other CV can apparently just pound salt.
  3. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Brawling is not a viable strategy when both teams are on equal terms and DDs are still up. It's absolutely binary in this case. The meta has discouraged brawling for ages. If you can only "brawl" when the other team is already losing and dead, then you're simply cleaning up, Brawling is not what won you the fight. If Brawling was truly a viable strategy, a ship should be able to sail into the middle of the opposing team from the start of the game and actually be competitive doing so, you would be able to push from the word "go". And again, I've played DDs, I just haven't played a ton of them. I'm quite aware of their threat to me in other ships, acutely aware you could say, and now I'll have to be even more aware because I won't have CVs backing me up as much against them, if at all, which means even less opportunity to push, and further cementing of a meta I was already annoyed by.
  4. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Alright, seeing as you've admitted you have no desire to engage in good faith, I'm going to report and move on. You really need to learn to have discussions with people you disagree with without resorting to being defamatory and insulting.
  5. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    The irony of this statement in this discussion thread is palpable :(
  6. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Incorrect, I've been here since the RTS CV days when you could have multiple torp squads cross firing surface ships for the lulz. I have just taken multiple long breaks from this game when other interests pop up, and considering some of the recent changes to it, I can feel another long break incoming methinks. The secondary nerf was already bad enough, then they took away Chievo rewards to wring more money out of us, now this, smh Wargaming.
  7. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    If that is genuinely Wargaming's intent then I think I am not long for this game, which saddens me greatly as it has given me much fun over the years. DDs are already the most frustrating ship to play against as is, especially in a BB or pushing Cruiser. If Wargaming really wants to kill pushing and brawling so badly, what with this nerf and the HE spam shenanigans, then I'm likely jumping ship soon and taking my money with me. If I wanted to play as a sniper I wouldn't be in a Warship, I'd go play a Tom Clancy game. The point I made specifically does not require any DD experience or any CV experience. It was based on empirical assessment of data and patch notes. No in-game experience was required for that statement. We're talking about CVs post-rework here. Since the rework it has been a steady stream of nerfs for CVs across the board. All CV torp damage was reduced, twice if memory serves. All CV bomb damage was reduced (lulz at Hakuryu citadels only doing ~6k). The profile of rocket attacks versus the reticle was nerfed, and additionally rocket dispersion was nerfed. AA was actually buffed multiple times, including the overlapping fire addition, and slightly weakened once that I recall, but at high tiers it is quite effective. There has been a steady stream of class-wide CV nerfs. Now have their been DD nerfs, such as stealth fire? Well, first of all that didn't just hinder DDs, that hinders any surface ship in smoke, so it isn't really just a DD class nerf, but even were we to take it as one, can you list at least 5 other class-wide DD nerfs since the CV rework? Can you note a time when Smaland hasn't had a higher winrate than FDR? Please stop accusing me of ignorance when you are displaying it yourself, your smugness is appalling. DDs across the board have the highest average winrates in the game, full stop. They have the biggest net positive impact on winning because they are such a potent vessel. It's why you'll notice that the team that loses its DDs first has almost certainly lost the game, even when CVs are involved. The highest winrate premium CV is around 58%, the highest premium DD winrate is north of 60% (I believe 62% iirc). The second highest CV winrate is FDR at about 54%, and Smaland is at 55-56%, and several other DDs are above that. This is all verifiably from last Quarter. Most CVs, especially non-premiums, hover at or below the 50% WR mark, and this is also true for a lot of non-premium DDs, though on average they are marginally higher than CVs. Really, the biggest takeaway imo was that Premium ships are busted and the game is p2w, but the data certainly doesn't support the assertion that CVs are OP. The highest average damage, aside from FDR, belongs to BBs. CVs do not compete in that department and have not for a while. This is an empirical fact confirmed on Maplesyrup. If you want DPM, you play BBs, or if you're lucky enough to have that much steel, an FDR specifically (which absolutely did need to be nerfed). The one stat which CVs are genuinely superior in is Spotting Damage, which should be obvious to most here as they are capable of effectively spotting enemy ships for their team to hit, but plenty of individual DDs do give CVs a run for their money there. Can you respond to one single post without being a jerk? Your attitude isn't welcome, take it back to the playground and leave it there. Every other surface ship can fire at a DD it has spotted, even if it might be too late at that point. CVs now essentially can't unless they've conserved their Fighters all game just to protect themselves from rogue DDs. This is far beyond wanting to be self reliant, it's about wanting to be able to do literally anything at all when the team is insufficient. Team games where you can literally only act with the assistance of your team are quite unenjoyable, because you have no guarantee your team is useful every game, nor can they be guaranteed of your own performance for that matter. Every ship should absolutely be self sufficient against other ships to at least some degree, though certainly rock/paper/scissors can still exist in that dynamic. I'd love to be able to aim, unfortunately I have nothing to aim at. Go jump in a Kaga and without team support in spotting a DD w/ its AA turned off, without fighters, try and hit it and see how much damage you can put down. I barely even play DDs, but even my potato DD [edited]will dodge you. There are other CVs than the 'Muricans. I will not claim to know much about general DD life beyond what my friends who main them have told me, and what I know they've told me is that CV rockets have never been a real threat, CV spotting is the threat. What I do know myself is that plenty of DDs have the turn radius to run parallel to a rocket attack before they are finished arming. I do not need to have played much of DD to witness this with my eyeballs from planes, though I have played some and know at least that much. If the DD isn't stationary and has some speed, they may not be able to turn a full 90, but they'll get very close. Most DDs can literally keep up in turn radius with planes on an attack run. Because rockets disperse horizontally (which I know from playing CVs extensively) this will evade most of the rockets, though likely not all if the CV is experienced. The idea that a DD should be able to evade 100% of a CVs damage is ridiculous though, and that's exactly what this nerf is foolishly trying to accomplish. Again though, for the 3rd time, I did not bring up game experience, others did. Please stop engaging me in bad faith. I do not bring up player experience or stats as a rule until others do it to try and attack me. If you want to attack the victim it reflects poorly, but your ire should be pointed at the people that started this mudslinging. I'm not Ghandi, I will eye for an eye. It wasn't a bad thing to nerf them when they were originally overtuned, just as it wouldn't be bad to have nerfed FDR now. Fortunately, prior to 10.5, CVs were not "broken" anymore and we have the data to back this up on Maplesyrup, should you care to look at it and be informed. Also yes, I recall global AA nerfs, but I also recall AA buffs around that time as well, such as overlapping fire changes that had to be brought back down to earth. I also remember global nerfs to CV torp damage, reticle nerfs, rocket dispersion nerfs, bomb damage nerfs, and others. What class-wide nerfs have DDs received in that time period?
  8. Apparently so. WoWarships is apparently now just an arms race for which team can purchase the most broken DDs.
  9. DDs are a hard counter to BBs in isolation. Assuming no external spotting is on the DD, a BB will almost never be able to return fire on a DD torping it. I suppose an argument can be made that a BB will probably beat a gunboat focused DD that can't fire torps, but most DDs will have some ability to torp the BB from invisibility or HE spam them from the edge of range. If you've played the 1v1 Brawls mode, I believe you should be well aware of this fact. Often in Brawls the DD will just YOLO the enemy. Bring back effective secondaries and I'd have less issue with this. So now, with this change to rockets, in an isolated 1v1, DDs are effectively immune to CVs, as the CVs best tool to damage them will now no longer be able to keep them spotted and able to line up a shot simultaneously. Previously, because rockets fired immediately after you lined up, you did have time to estimate their last known location and rip some off right as they became visible again, but now, that is functionally impossible. Now all a DD has to do is slam on full reverse and there's no way the blind fired rockets are landing. Before, blind fire took some skill, but it was possible, now it essentially isn't against all but the dumbest of DDs. So now, 2 of the 3 other ship classes than DDs outright lose to said DDs. Cruisers can more easily evade torps and spot them, and there are sufficient amounts of Radar Cruisers, that you can consider some level of counter to destroyers. If Skp is fine with this nerf, whether he says it in so many words or not, it is tacit acceptance that DDs are effectively superior 2 of 3 of their opposing ship classes. Some people here may be fine with that situation, I am not. CVs never stopped me from pushing and brawling and having fun, DDs do, HE spam does, and Wargaming continues to encourage both to be able to zone deny with further impunity.
  10. So the only thing that should be able to take down a DD in a 1 on 1 is a Radar Cruiser? Everything else is just resigned to losing because their team didn't kill the DD when it was spotted? That certainly screams balance, having 1 ship type that beats nearly everything else unless everything else focuses it together. When CVs had the power to do that in the days of old, everyone seemed to scream it was OP, why do DDs get to be special in this regard? And furthermore, every other ship type can reliably hurt the DD if they can aim. A DD with AA off and decent concealment will be virtually invisible to the CV, untouchable unless the CV gets in some lucky guesses. They can fly rocket planes over the DD to spot it, sure, but they'll never maintain the spotting if they try and fly away and back for an attack. Previously you could estimate where the DD was to try and hit it on the return with a quick rocket strike, but now with the rocket delay the way it is, the DD can easily dodge or simply hit the brakes to avoid the rockets due to the visual queue and abundant time to evade. The delay on the rockets is nearly the stopping time of a DD with Propulsion mod, so frankly they don't even need to dodge. I primarily play IJN CVs as I like fast planes, their torps are not a reliable way to hit DDs, no matter how good a CV player you are. An equally skilled DD will evade them 99% of the time. So with this rocket nerf, the Rocket planes on my Hakuryu and Kaga (which were already lacking) are now less than worthless. I'll never pull them out anymore, assuming I even keep playing CVs at this point. They've been trashed so many times by Wargaming it doesn't seem worth it. I've never claimed playing DDs were easy though; I'm not walking around trying to tell DDs how they should be happy they don't get nerfed more or calling them "ocean cancer" every single match. I have friends who play them extensively so I'm well aware of how difficult they are to play, and it's obvious even from how many potato DDs manage to immediately suicide in the first 2 minutes of a match. The one thing I do know though is that 100% of said friends have informed me that rocket plane damage has almost never been a real threat to them, even before the reticle change and dispersion change. Not a single time have they said this to me, with the sole exception of FDR, which I think we can all agree is uniquely busted. The one thing they do universally complain about is being spotted, and then surface ships crushing them. Rocket damage itself was never the issue, and this nerf isn't addressing the main problem, it's merely hindering CV agency for no good reason. I do know though from experience with rocket planes that DD turning radius allows them to pull nearly 90 degree turns into my CV rockets before they finish arming, assuming they are already moving. I don't need to play DDs to know this, my eyeballs can see it from in the air; trying to get into turning radius matches with DDs is almost always a fools errand, you take the best angle you can get with the surprise you have. That is as much on DDs as I will comment, but it is enough to know that they can absolutely evade most CV rockets in a salvo due to horizontal dispersion. This does mean they may be opening themselves up to surface ship broadsides, but that's true of any crossfire.
  11. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Except now DD players will learn to just never turn on AA..... and now they are entirely invisible to CV rockets unless someone else spots them, truly compelling gameplay. CVs will just stop going after DDs entirely at this point. Again, Calibur brought it up, and then eviltane called me a liar and said I was inexperienced. I responded when attacked, and I did so rather civilly by pointing out the hypocrisy of the ones attacking me, but without being insulting. I suggest you put aside your bias for a second and look at who the people are throwing rocks here instead of criticizing the person defending themselves. As a rule, I do not bring up people's personal records unless they force the issue themselves. But if you hit me I hit back, I have no patience for bullies. Oh look, someone else attacking me because they disagree. What a wonderful community this is. My claim that DDs are coddled is regarding the fact that CVs have been slapped with nothing but nerfs since the rework, including this one, and it doesn't take much browsing of patch notes to see that DD players haven't taken the same hits across the board (as a whole class). It also doesn't take much effort to look at Maplesyrup and notice that DDs even before 10.5 had superior winrates to CVs, so what exactly is this nerf trying to accomplish beyond making DDs more dominant than they already are in the hands of a skilled player? I could have never played a DD in my life and made this assessment.
  12. NefariousRaven

    rocket plane changes leave carriers undefended.

    Right, and this is a huge reason I have a problem with it. Good DD players weren't scared of rockets before 10.5, they could easily dodge and mitigate most of their damage, if not all of it on occasion, but good CV players could at least hit them a bit, and if they focused them, potentially take them down with enough repeated strikes. This change was specifically to help out potato DDs that don't know how to evade so that they'll never be taken down no matter how many strike attempts as long as they simply turn off AA and stay dark. The big difference is though, beforehand, potato DDs had the option of just getting a Halland or Oster and specializing in AA skills to just wipe the planes out so they didn't have to dodge. CVs have no such option now, their option is pray their team kills DDs before they get close, or simply die. There is no alternative, there is no DD specialized killing CV now, they are just all universally bad at it. You've taken away agency from CVs to defend themselves from an entire ship class, and that's just bad game design. We shouldn't be catering to potatoes, potatoes should have to get better. It's already painful enough playing a BB and having to rely on your team to spot DDs, Wargaming now just gimped one of the ships that could protect them.
  13. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Because previously you could strike on a return pass without needing fighters to maintain vision if you could keep a rough estimate in your head of where the DD was going, now you effectively can't. With the delay on rockets now, most DDs in the game could already have stopped and been in full reverse before your return pass without vision, they don't even need to pretend to dodge. Now you are demanding I have to use Fighters to make this work, which I'm fine with, but then I demand more Fighters. If you don't want my Rocket Planes to be able to both spot and attack, then fine, give me an additional Recon plane type. No other ship in the game has to stop shooting to maintain spotting, it's ridiculous that CVs should be gimped in this regard. Also, to be clear, I'd prefer a recon plane type setup over what we have now, but we aren't getting that here. Alright, then CV planes should be invisible outside of 2.5km until they attack. We can do this dance all day. The fact is that we're talking about a change which specifically tilts the playing field towards DDs in a matchup against CVs, and it doesn't sit well with me that CVs are being gutted vs the already most impactful class in the game, DDs. I suggest you go back and reread the conversation and notice that I was not the one to whip out experience in ships to try and big [edited] on other people, Calibur was, and I merely pointed out his experience was only with half of the relevant ships being discussed. If I need to make a point, I will generally refer to statistics we have on Maplesyrup as well as my experiences playing the ships, but I don't start stat shaming people or try to appeal to authority. There is no backpedaling. I think you need to work on your reading comprehension if you think there is, I stand by everything I say. Uh, hands-on experience and empirical statistics that are publicly available on Maplesyrup.
  14. NefariousRaven

    rocket plane changes leave carriers undefended.

    You can hit and damage CV planes, which is effectively the CV player. Pretend the CV launch platform is an airbase at the back of the map. The Planes are the CV player, and they can absolutely be destroyed. In contrast, CV players effectively cannot hit a lone DD with rocket planes now, they require someone else either shooting the DD or spotting them so the rockets planes have a target to shoot at.
  15. NefariousRaven

    They really screwed up CV's

    Wargaming better give CV players twice as may Fighter consumables and double their health then if they are expected to carry double duty for the planes they are already controlling.... I would have a lot less issue with this change if we got that. With this nerf CVs effectively have to decide if they want to use rocket planes for spotting or attacking, but they don't get to do both at the same time anymore. Should we make DDs unable to torp people when they are spotting as well? Should we give them limited torps they have to regenerate? Fair is fair after all, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't care much for appeals to authority or stat shaming in either case. People can have their opinions, but the objective fact is we have data on this stuff which showed that CVs prior to 10.5 were not OP, they were quite balanced, and that DDs were actually quite a bit stronger than CVs already. Smaland has literally always been ahead of FDR in winrate, for example. The idea that CVs had to be even weaker is ridiculous, and just shows favouritism towards DDs by Wargaming, which are apparently a protected species now in spite of there being 4-5 DDs per team every match.
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