WhiteCoatClubber

When two players shoot at the same enemy ship, if their shells arrive at the same time then the white damage indicator shows the total damage done by both players. If the white bar could be subdivided into two parts with different colors (say white and grey), white for the player and grey for all of the other players shooting then it would be easier to determine how effective your shells have been. I know that there is a display of actual amount of damage done but in the heat of battle it is difficult to read the numbers. A subdivided bar would show damage done much easier.

Back in the Co-Op 2/7 bug days, I was able to get 1000 MB hits using the Smolensk. That's an outlier but shows what is possible.

I would like to see your source for that data.

All this talk about subs makes me want to go play them so more. That way I learn how they work and understand how to counter them. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want to embrace change or learn the new counters to a new class of opponent. If you look at the API you see that the average damage done by subs is quite low. They can sometimes, if the stars align, do some damage but not very often. The "good player" argument is a red herring. A good player does a lot of damage no matter what kind of ship they are in.

While we're at it then, for accuracy's sake. Depth charges should do damage to surface ships as well. In a DD capping behind an island when the radar detects you, expect a barrage of depth charges resetting progress and damaging your ship. How does that sound?

Why is it that I always see people like this crying about subs on the forum but when I'm in a game in a BB, not one SS or DD goes withine10km of a sonar ping? Subs are only a problem if you ignore them. However, farming damage is so much more important that people would rather lose a game by ignoring subs completely and then coming on here and complaining about how "subs broke the game". Complain about how your DDs and SSs didn't screen the big guns from the threat. I suggest the OP play DD for a month and HUNT submarines and screen the BBs. I'll bet he has a better time than he is now, and his win rate will be significantly better as well. Better yet, div up with a DD, SS and BB. Lure the enemy SS in with the BB, spot with the friendly SS and then kill with the DD. If only there was a word for a team of people working together for a common goal like winning a game.

Subs had a huge impact on the course of the second world war. In the Atlantic theater, which incidentally was the only area that kept Churchill up at night by his own admission, the Germans ALMOST cut off the supply lies to the UK. The Allies put huge amounts of resources and developed convoy escort, sonar, radar and other ASW tactics to a high degree and eventually were able to get the upper hand. The ultimate failure of the Battle of the Atlantic lead directly to the Allies victory. In the Pacific theater of operations, the Japanese, another island nation almost completely dependent on Seabourne import's, did not prioritize convoys, commercial ship building or other ASW measures. With the large efforts of the US Navy's fleet submarines, eventually the Japanese economy was strangled by the lack of freighters to transport all of the vital raw materials required to wage war or supply their far-flung island conquests. This led to the Allies being able to Island hop close enough to the home islands and commence a unleash an unholy rain of fire upon them. Submarines had a huge impact on the outcome of the war.

The post right below your original post is from ClydePlays where he proves that you get more ships in the new system.

Thank you for putting forth some rational ideas. It's this kind of discussion that gets us to a better solution. 1) Small firing delay - by that I take it you mean between each torpedo. That might help a bit but most devastating shotgun attacks happen when all torpedoes are released, and you dive/turn before you are spotted. This would force a sub to start shooting earlier and might give the target more of a chance to avoid after the initial torpedoes are spotted. Would be good for cruisers and DDs but might be less effective on BBs due to their inability to change speed or direction quickly. Certainly, this could be tried to see what effect it has. 2) Torpedo range swap - let's say for an example we have 5km homing and 10km non-homing. The non-homing torpedoes have twice the damage potential of the homing. If I am in a sub, I might try a long range shot with the non-homing but the chances of hitting you are small because you will probably turn before my torpedoes get to you and with the large dispersion cone added to the main torpedoes (to prevent / reduce shot gunning) prevents me from getting an even spread like a DD. Therefore, I am going to have to close the range to increase the chances of a successful attack. Once I get to 5km, it's too dangerous to use homing torpedoes because if I do ping you, all surprise is lost, you turn away and avoid the torpedoes while depth charging the heck out of me. So instead, I am going to close to point blank range, use the unguided torpedoes with the higher alpha strike and if I do it right, all you see is the torpedoes when it's too late to avoid them. You have no idea where I am because you only see torpedoes at 1 to 1.5km (I forget the exact distance) so I may be anywhere from crossing under your keel to 10km away. 3) Ping indicator time - I can agree with you on this one. The ping indicator is probably too quick for you to find if you are doing something else. There is a new mod that is approved that plots the ping on the minimap for an extended period of time. I haven't used it but there is a forum thread describing the mod and how to get it.

Hi Mouse!! I was picking an extreme case to illustrate my point. If I had been in Minkeze instead of Fujin, I would not have been able to handle 3 BBs in the way that I did. However, I'm reasonably confident that I could have handled one of them given the same circumstances. They were on their own, without support and pushing my flank. If the carrier had come over and spotted for them they would have had the upper hand. If they had had a DD in support, then it would have been much more difficult if not impossible for me to score any damage and they would have won the flank and probably the game. My point about Subs is that if you do not work as a team and focus fire when they are spotted then the Sub has the upper hand. If the carrier is spotting, the DDs are screening the BBs in the back then the sub has a much harder time getting into an attack position and with the relatively low damage potential of the homing torpedoes getting big damage games is not possible.

Let me answer with a question as well. What would make subs balanced BUT playable as well. My example could have been performed with any stealthy torpedo focused DD. Fujin is just an extreme case that illustrates this point quite clearly. We are talking about isolated BBs vs subs and that interaction is not balanced. As to the Orions not having ASW, there are ships in the game without AA (i.e., Agincourt). How do we balance the interaction with CVs in this case? I think people forget that every single interaction in the game does not need to be balanced and is intentionally not intended to be balanced. In all of these threads, I hear people complaining but very few put forward any kind of solution that would fix the balance issue. Yes, subs are a pain to fight if you don't have the right tools and mindset but for the amount of damage a regular player can achieve in them they really are more of an annoyance than a real problem.

I had a game last night where I was in the Fujin and a triple div of Orions came around an island. I out spotted them easily and sank the first one with no trouble. The other two turned away from me and ran to the back of the map. I kept trying to torp them unsuccessfully, but they were bobbing and weaving like boss'. I did force them out of the fight and my team did enough damage to them that I got a Combat Scout achievement. How was this interaction balanced? Should we ban DDs now as well?

I'm grinding Sturdy right now and I'm averaging 5000 HP on DDs and CLs and 3000 HP on BBs per torpedo hit. Not exactly monster numbers there. Most BB shell pens are more HP than this and they can shoot anywhere between 6 to 16 shells every 30 seconds or so and get the occasional citadel as well. I just had a really good game where I got 17 torpedo hits and averaged 4900HP per torpedo hit. BBs do a lot more damage than this over the course of a game. Top speed is 26kns and 18kns submerged. So faster than a standard but not by much and slower than most other BBs at tier. Certainly not fast enough to outrun DDs dropping depth charges. I reload at 40 second so it can put 6 torpedoes in the water with the first salvo and three torpedoes every 40 seconds thereafter. Once you fire that first salvo though, players that know what they are doing are able to maneuver to make follow up shots risky at best. I think that the subs are more of a physiological problem rather than damage problem for most players.

But the DD would not need RPF to keep the BB spotted. If the BB has the support of a team, then a DD or CL with RPF could help them find a DD but neither a SS nor a BB can equip that skill.

I fail to see the difference between a lone BB / Sub matchup and a lone BB and stealthy torpedo DD. If a BB is unsupported, it will likely face a hard counter to it at some point. Whether that's a DD or a SS is really not an issue. Sure, the SS can reload faster but it does less damage per salvo so the BB has the opportunity to turn and run away.