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WirFahrenGegenEngeland

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  1. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    CV Aircraft Rockets. And ships that weren't built.

    He 177 and Do 217 say "Hi". Besides, as has already been explained, no plane in the game actually drops 4 torpedoes individually. The planes in each attack division all take turns attacking in separate waves. For example, you might have a flight of 12 planes consisting of 3 or 4 individual attack wings with 4 or 3 planes, respectively, in each wing. Planes that have expended their ammunition immediately return to the carrier upon having completed their attack, leaving your flight with fewer planes each time this happens. This is why torpedo bombers are able to make multiple runs.
  2. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    Graf Zeppelin owners, is it worth it?

    With a secondary build in CoOp, GZ is just about the most fun you can have with your pants on. Push up with the team and check back often enough to set priority targets for your 9km range secondaries. GZ can easily out-brawl a bot Massachusets (I know because I've done it xD). My only regret about buying GZ and playing her in CoOp is that now my Tirpitz secondaries feel underwhelming when I take her out. xD
  3. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    Just how historically plausible is WG's Battleship Odin?

    Odin to me looks like a German copy of the Littorio with a Yamato-style secondary layout. Like Littorio and Yamato met at a bar in Bavaria had a few too many drinks and had a love-child together. Bam. Odin.
  4. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    Just how historically plausible is WG's Battleship Odin?

    Let's consider the naval scene at the time the Germans were designing their 35,000t battleship. Contrary to popular belief, Germany was not, at this time anyway, attempting to engage in a naval arms race with Great Britain, but rather, with France. At the time, the most modern and powerful battleships in (or about to be in) the French navy were the Dunkerque and Strasbourg. Therefore, any German naval designer wishing to compete with France only needs to supply their new battleship with a weapon capable of defeating the relatively light armor of the two aforementioned French battleships. Obviously, the Germans felt that a 13" weapon would be sufficient for the task. Beyond this, the German design was also armored sufficiently to withstand return fire from the French battleships at envisioned combat ranges and would have been capable of outrunning the French battleships by 3.5 knots. Arming the new German battleship with a gun larger than what was necessary would have not only been unnecessary overkill in the firepower department, but also would have taken tonnage away from armor and propulsion. When France announced the construction of the 15"-armed Richelieu the Germans were forced to react in order to maintain parity with France. We can see with the Bismarck's just how much an increase in gun caliber affects tonnage... as in order to mount 15" guns the ships length, armor, and top speed all had to be 'nerfed' in order to remain within tonnage limitations (although in actuality the ship turned out to be a 40,000t design rather than the 'legal' 35,000t that was announced publicly)
  5. Finally, WG's new German tier 8 premium battleship Odin is in the files and available for viewing on 3rd party websites. It has been some time since we've gotten a German premium battleship so this is certainly exciting. But the question arises - Just what is Odin? Does she have any real roots in actual history? And just how realistic/plausible is WG's rendition of the ship? I hope to answer these questions in this thread. First things first... Yes, Odin is historical... but only barely... The Odin originates from the German naval conference of 1933 in Berlin in which the Germans discussed the threat posed by France's new battleship Dunkerque which were entirely superior to the German Deutschland class and forced the Germans to cancel the remaining Deutschland class ships. The Germans needed an answer to the Dunkerque, and this meant having a ship, at the very least, with armor thick enough to protect against the 330mm shells of the Dunkerque. In total, three basic projects were considered: 18,000 tons, 22,000 tons (both with 283 mm guns) and 26,000 tons with 330 mm guns, which cost 120, 150 and 180 million marks, respectively. The most radical admirals, such as the chief of the Gross naval artillery, vehemently spoke out in favor of the 26,000-ton project with 330-mm guns, emphasizing that parity with France was most important. However, this project presented new problems. Such a ship could only be built on slipway No. 2 in Wilhelmshaven, and docked only in Bremenhaven and Hamburg. That is, during the construction of several of these ships, the Government would also have to fork out cash for new docks. In the end, Raeder ordered a more detailed study of the project of 26,500 tons with the following options for the location of 330-mm guns: 4x2, 2x4 and 3x3. In extreme cases, it was allowed to use a 305 mm caliber. The work should have been completed by the end of 1934, and then it was planned to lay the lead ship. There you have it, Odin was a proposal for a Dunkerque counter. Ultimately, this proposal evolved and ultimately led to the Scharnhorst class. In simple terms, then, the Odin is a Scharnhorst preliminary design. I have, however, been unable to find even the simplest napkin drawing of this proposal... so the Odin really was little more than just that, a proposal. Having said as much, I won't rule out the possibility of WG having found some super sekret dokuments in some archive somewhere. So then, the 1933 26,500t 305mm proposal that is the Odin having no detailed plans gives WG a lot of creative freedom for designing such a ship themselves. I will now review WG's creation section by section and judge it based on German naval practices at the time of Odin's proposal to see just how historically plausible the model itself is. Of course, WG's model is presented in a very late war refit, so I will keep this fact in mind when judging. The Bow - If construction began in 1934 the ship would have assuredly been built with a straight bow, however, seeing as this is a late-war refit the use of an Atlantic bow in WG's model is entirely appropriate as every surviving major German warships after 1940 was refitted with an Atlantic bow or built with one from the get-go. - However, the 3rd anchor on the bow is very perplexing. While the Germans did have warships with 3 anchors on the bow, such as the Deutschlands, when they were refitted with Atlantic bows the anchors were moved up to the deck, as they are here in WG's model, and the 3rd anchor was deleted. Therefore there is no historical precedent for a German warship post-Atlantic bow conversion to have a 3rd anchor on the deck as Odin does here. - The 'A' turret also offends slightly. The Germans very quickly found out that their battleships, even with Atlantic bows, were still very wet forward and therefore, the rangefinder ears on their respective A turrets were either removed (Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Tirpitz) or simply plated over (Gneisenau). Odin, if built, would have assuredly been built with rangefinder ears on her A turret and undergone a similar operation. Obviously, WG chose the option of removing them entirely. However, on the ships that had their rangefinder ears removed, a small 'blemish' was left behind which clearly showed the original existence of the ears. On Odin, there is no such blemish, the turret side is just as smooth as a baby's bottom. (Image of an example of the 'blemish' below) Midsection - First thing first, the bridge itself is fine. While in 1933 the Germans were still using the Tombstone shaped bridge and tube-mast combo, they were starting to gravitate away from that. First with the pyramid monstrosities on the Spee and Scheer which were dreadfully overweight and overall unpopular (Scheer had hers cut short and replaced with a tube-mast above the bridge during her refit because the original structure was so awful.) This led the Germans to their final bridge design seen on Scharnhorsts, Bismarcks, Hippers, and the Z-plan battleships which they stuck with for the remainder of the 1930s and 40s. Even if Odin began construction with a tombstone and tube-mast bridge, or even a Spee/Scheer bridge, its entirely possible that this would have been rebuilt with the more modern bridge either before her completion or before/during the war. - The two funnels. No German battleship designs during the early 1930s that I'm aware of ever called for a twin-stack arrangement and it wouldn't be until the diesel-powered Z-plan ships that we start to see 2-funnel designs (and very big funnels at that, not these K-class cruiser funnels seen on WG's Odin. Because there is no historical precedent for an early-30s 2-stack design, and because I dont see a two-stack conversion during a refit, I'm forced to knock WG here. Perhaps WG gave Odin two stacks so that players could easily differentiate her silhouette from the Bismarck and Scharnhorst sisters in-game?? - The secondaries. The original proposal for the 1933 26,500t battleship called for a secondary armament of 150mm and 105mm weapons. I will go ahead and make an allowance for the 128mm guns since it could be argued that the 105mm guns could have been replaced by these in a late-war refit. However, their positioning is still troublesome. On all of the German large warships that received 105mm turrets, only the Hipper class ever had any of these turrets mounted on the actual deck... on all other ships all 105mm turrets were mounted a level above the deck. So there is no historical precedent for a German battleship to have any DP secondary turrets on the deck. WG should have made a deck above the main deck and stretched this to the sides of the ship and mounted the DP turrets on this level as was the case with the Scharnhorst sisters and Tirpitz. As or the triple 150mm turrets and their locations... its very Yamatoey... however, I cant fault WG for being unhistorical in either the use of triple 150mm turrets on a capital ship design or their centerline-superfiring position as their 1928 Schlachtkreuzer design checks both of these boxes... ... Further, the Odin retains the 6-guns 150mm broadside that all the other German battleships of the era possessed and does so while eating up less tonnage. However, the downside comes in the fact that mounting these turrets in such a way unnecessarily lengthens the ship's citadel. - The catapult. Odin features a twin catapult arrangement between the funnels that spans the width of the ship. I have several issues with this design by WG. Until the Bismarck class, all German large warships that had a catapult had a rotating catapult mounted atop a hangar or other superstructure. The only way the Odin, which is a 1934 pre-Bismarck design, gets a Bismarck-type twin catapult arrangement is if she is refitted with one. This would be one helluva refit as it would not only have entailed removing the original hangar, but also the installation of the hangars below and beside BOTH of her funnels, significantly changing their size and appearance of the fore and aft superstructures... meaning an increase in tonnage for arguably very little gain. Finally, this catapult should not be embedded in the deck like it is in WG's model... there is no historical precedent for such a placement... instead this catapult should be up a level along with the 128mm weapons and just like the Bismarck class... Aft - The Stern is a headscratcher. I can certainly see what the WG modelers were thinking, but their thinking is flawed. The issue, of course, is with the step down in the hull and the superfiring position of the aft turret... which is INCREDIBLY Littorio-like. Obviously the thinking behind this was "Deutschland had this step-down and so did the D class which was designed around the same time as the Odin proposal.. so obviously it was a German shipbuilding practice at the time!" Yes, but WHY did the Deutschlands have this step-down in the stern? Simple. So that the Aft turret could fire without blowing the torpedo tubes off the deck. This is also part of the thinking for Littorio having this arrangement, so that her guns didn't blow the catapult off the stern (*cough* USN fast battleships *cough*). "Ah! But Odin also has her torpedo tubes on the stern! Mystery solved!" You say. Not necessarily. Why did the Deutschlands have their torpedo tubes on their sterns? Because they were cruiser-sized and had no room to put torpedo tubes anywhere else on the deck. Odin is a battleship which is slightly longer than the Scharnhorst in-game.. she can make room amidships for torpedo tubes just like the Scharnhorst sisters and Tirpitz did. So, as far as Odin's historical plausibility concerning her model is concerned... I give her a 7.5/10. There's nothing incredibly flagrant, out of the norms, or half-a$$ed with her. She certainly looks like a German battleship and is easily recognizable as such. There are just a few errors in the execution of her design by WG in my opinion. Raise her catapults and 128s up a level, get rid of the 3rd bow anchor, move the torpedo tubes amidships and get rid of the step-down in the stern and she's a 10/10 as far as I'm concerned. I'll leave the twin-stacks as with a single larger stack and all of the other changes I suggested... she starts to look too much like Scharnhorst. Really, though, Odin as a whole is kind of a stretch. If WG really wanted to give us a T8 Gerrman premium BB they could have given us Bismarck's preliminary design instead for which we actually have blueprints and detailed info. It's basically a Bismarck which is faster (33kt) and has a thicker belt (356mm) but has 13" guns instead of 15" guns. This is the battleship the Germans would have built if the Richelieu was not announced to have 15" guns, forcing the Germans to come up with a 15" battleship of their own. I hope you enjoyed my topic. What do you think of Odin? Would you have rather had the preliminary Bismarck design instead?
  6. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    ST, Luigi Sansonetti, Odin, Siliwangi

    AA looks far from weak. She gets 55mm guns at tier 8(!!) Even FDG doesnt get the 55s Secondaries look decent as well in terms of number, type, and range.
  7. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    ST, Luigi Sansonetti, Odin, Siliwangi

    The primary reason the Germans did not further pursue a gun caliber over 280mm at the time was that Hitler was involved in negotiations with Great Britain at the time and didn't want to upset them with a powerfully armed new battleship. Still, there are several napkin sketches of the German quadruple turret that they were considering around this time so it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few napkin sketches lying around of the 305mm gun and turret. I too, however, have been unable to find any actual design put on paper for Odin.
  8. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    ST, Luigi Sansonetti, Odin, Siliwangi

    WG's model Odin looks like a German copy of the Littorio class. Two funnels, a step down in the hull towards the aft, rear turret is in a superfiring position... And with... Yamato's 6" secondary layout. Yikes A very handsome ship, but not necessarily a very realistic one. I'll save further judgment until I can look at the full model.
  9. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    My captain is more majestic than yours

    He is no match for the Stalin-stache! Also, first names don't get much more epic than "Stanislaus"
  10. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    FEEDBACK for Wargaming on Yahagi and VU.

    Any person who gives half a darn about their team will only be playing VU in CoOp anyway where <8km brawling is the norm. I should have clarified. Sorry. Please, please do not play VU in random battles. You are only a weight around your team's neck.
  11. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    Underwater Easter Eggs?

    Don't know about the subs, but they did ride other ships when they were side-launched.
  12. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    Underwater Easter Eggs?

    Perhaps one-day WG will release the USS Kraken ;) As a fun fact, the USS Kraken was one of the 28 submarines built on the Great Lakes during the war at Manitowoc, Wisconsin. The subs built at this yard were highly praised and were considered the best-built subs in the navy. The Manitowoc yard was the only submarine builder during the war to receive 5 consecutive Navy E's for 'Excellence'. Because the Manitowoc river was so narrow, the subs were side-launched into the river which was the traditional launching method of most Great Lakes shipbuilders. Here is Kraken being launched...
  13. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    FEEDBACK for Wargaming on Yahagi and VU.

    A great comment! I'm forced to disagree on the armor, though. VU's armor is superb when angled and/or bow-on. Now, any battleship's armor is better when angled, I'm well aware, but VU's is crazy good. Her excellent bow armor, coupled with the fact that she hardly has any superstructure to shoot at, and being able to fire 6 guns directly ahead arguably makes her the best low-tier bow-tanker in the game. It's pretty easy to citadel her through the side, though, so you have to make sure you don't overextend, but even still, we're not talking Roma levels of easy citadel here. As far as AA is concerned, WG can just add more guns to her turrets, up to 3 on each turret for 12 total guns. Observe... Give her these extra guns and a zombie heal and I think we can call her 'playable' in Random battles.
  14. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    On the historical misconceptions behind Battleships VS. Aircraft Carriers

    The seaworthiness comment needs to come with an asterisk here. Low lying battlecruiser-esque type ships with narrow beams have traditionally been very wet ships (Hood was nicknamed the Navy's largest submarine, for example, and the Iowas were notably poor seaboats) so this problem is not especially unique to the Twins. More like par for the course. In either event, their seaworthiness was not poor enough to limit their operating theatre as was the case with 9-gun German light cruisers (save for Karlsruhe after her refit). And finally, their seaworthiness issues did not prevent them from becoming the most successful battleships in history in regards to enemy ships sunk/captured As far as Allied warships not being affected by the same storms is concerned, HMS Renown says "hi". Just my nitpick of the day. Carry on.
  15. WirFahrenGegenEngeland

    And he said, "Let there be NO water!", and behold it was... not so great

    Right, that I know.
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