WirFahrenGegenEngeland

The tier 4 is a bit of an oddball... Above the waterline, WG's model of the Rhein almost exactly matches German plans to convert Hansa type A transport ships into cheap, small aircraft carriers. The only apparent liberty WG has taken is in regards to the DP battery as the Hansa type carriers were not designed with any DP guns, only 4x1 40mm and 3x4 20mm guns. Even the tonnage rouhgly matches the Handsa conversions with WG's model displacing 11,100 tons full load compared to the Hansa's 9,000 tons standard. Notice the matching single catapult down the middle of the flight deck, just like in WG's model. The size and shape of the island and funnel also match. However, below the waterline the Rhein has two screws and a hanging rudder, which does not match the Hansa conversion at all with one screw and a hinged rudder. There's also the fact that the Rhein's top speed is 26 knots, much higher that the Hansa's top speed of 13 knots. Further, while the Hansa carrier would have measured 132m long overall, the Rhein in-game is closer to 170 meter long. Taking into account Rhein's length and speed in-game, she much more closely matches Germany's light "trade war" carrier design which was designed to have a length of 172m and a top speed of 24-26 knots. However, this design isn't a perfect match either.... for example it was supposed to displace 15,000 tons fully loaded, quite a bit heavier than our Rhein, and while the design matches up below the waterline, above the waterline is a different story.... This ship is much more heavily armed than our Rhein with 4x2 105mm and 4x2 150mmm guns placed equally on either side of the flight-deck. It also has two catapults, not one like our Rhein and the Hansa type has. The overall exterior design of this carrier just doesn't match up very well at all, well, above the waterline, anyway. At the end of the day, we either have a beefed up Hansa type, or a nerfed light trade war carrier project, or perhaps a combination of the two. One things for certain, though. This is not a Jade class carrier. Hope that helps! :)

Besides the funnel, anyway...

There's actually quite a lot of content available for German carriers since the Germans designed quite a few... some more fantastical than others... As for the ships we're getting... Tier IV Tier VI Tier VIII is Graf Zeppelin's sistership which was laid down but never launched. and tier X is a WG fantasy ship that is a carrier-conversion of the FDG.

They did. In fact, the German carriers were designed to be entirely reliant on their catapults for putting aircraft into the air. This is often criticized as being a major drawback in the design of German carriers but when one looks at how and where they were intended to be used, the logic begins to make more sense. Here is a closeup of one of the catapults on the Graf Zeppelin

The picture is deceiving. The Rhein looks a bit more fleshed-out but overall is significantly smaller than the Weser. Approx 7,000t smaller. A good reference point for the size between the two is the fact that the Rhein can only fit one catapult on the forward end of the flight deck while the Weser has two.

yes, she is the Admiral Hipper class heavy cruiser Seydlitz which, when she was already 95% complete as a cruiser, was ordered to be stripped down and converted into an aircraft carrier. Ultimately, she would never see completion. The tier IV is also a real design proposal to cheaply convert a number of Hansa type A Transport ships into small aircraft carriers. The tier VIII looks to be WG's version of GZ's sistership which was layed down but never launched. In other words, 3 out of the 4 ships in the German carrier branch existed IRL in some physical capacity.

Depends on your definition of 'paper'. Tiers 4 and 6 existed IRL as a Hansa-class transport ship and Hipper-class heavy cruiser, respectively, the latter of which was ordered to be converted into a carrier but would not see completion as such. Tier 8 looks to be WG's version of Graf Zeppelin's sister ship which was laid down but never launched. If that's the case, then 3 of the 4 ships in the line existed physically IRL in one form or another. Tier IV Tier VI

There's no doubt that by 1942 Hitler was very serious about carriers, otherwise worrk on GZ wouldn't have been resumed and the nearly complete heavy cruiser Seydlitz would not have been stripped down for conversion into a carrier. Goering and the Luftwaffe may not have been invested in the idea of carriers but Hitler had them by the balls and, for the most part, Goering played along and ultimately ended up dumping a considerable amount of resources towards Hitler's carrier dream (The Luftwaffe fulfilled the order of the 70 Bf-109Ts for the Kriegsmarine, as well as the order for 12 Fi-167s. They also received an order for 115 Ju-87C/Es but this was canceled in 1943 when Germany's carrier program as a whole was canceled again for the final time. Further, when the 109Ts and Fi-167s became obsolete the Luftwaffe began work on more modern and capable carrier aircraft such as the Me155. Beyond just building and designing/tweaking aircraft for the Kriegsmarine, the Luftwaffe also built a mock carrier flight deck at Travemunde and began training crews in carrier launch and landing techniques.) The Luftwaffe and Goering are, therefore, irrelevant. Hitler wanted carriers (until he didn't) and he dragged Goering and the Luftwaffe kicking and screaming into the carrier game, but once they were in the game, they were IN the game. Goering and the Luftwaffe, therefore, cannot be blamed for the failure of the German carrier project as, under Hitler's boot, they ultimately met, or at least attempted to meet, the needs and requests of the Navy. In the end, the carrier program hurt the Luftwaffe more than the Luftwaffe hurt the carrier program as ultimately all the time, effort, and materials spent by the Luftwaffe would end up being for nothing. A good analogy of the situation would be a quarterback who doesn't like the play that the coach called, but ran the play anyway and did everything in his power to achieve as satisfactory a result as possible... even if the play ultimately ended up in a sack for a loss. I see no reason why German carriers can't be in the game, there's plenty of source material for them and more game content is more game content. When a game runs out of new content, it shrivels up and dies. German carriers have always been an inevitability, there's just way too much content there to not use it. I'll admit I didn't expect them this soon, but I always knew they'd come. At the end of the day, there were real full-fledged blueprints for German carriers, real physical hulls that existed either purpose-built or meant for conversion into carriers, and a real and serious effort (even if relatively short-lived) to get carriers into the hand of the navy. Your 'Mongolian navy' analogy doesn't work in this regard because none of the previous examples apply to it.

He 177 and Do 217 say "Hi". Besides, as has already been explained, no plane in the game actually drops 4 torpedoes individually. The planes in each attack division all take turns attacking in separate waves. For example, you might have a flight of 12 planes consisting of 3 or 4 individual attack wings with 4 or 3 planes, respectively, in each wing. Planes that have expended their ammunition immediately return to the carrier upon having completed their attack, leaving your flight with fewer planes each time this happens. This is why torpedo bombers are able to make multiple runs.

With a secondary build in CoOp, GZ is just about the most fun you can have with your pants on. Push up with the team and check back often enough to set priority targets for your 9km range secondaries. GZ can easily out-brawl a bot Massachusets (I know because I've done it xD). My only regret about buying GZ and playing her in CoOp is that now my Tirpitz secondaries feel underwhelming when I take her out. xD

Odin to me looks like a German copy of the Littorio with a Yamato-style secondary layout. Like Littorio and Yamato met at a bar in Bavaria had a few too many drinks and had a love-child together. Bam. Odin.

Let's consider the naval scene at the time the Germans were designing their 35,000t battleship. Contrary to popular belief, Germany was not, at this time anyway, attempting to engage in a naval arms race with Great Britain, but rather, with France. At the time, the most modern and powerful battleships in (or about to be in) the French navy were the Dunkerque and Strasbourg. Therefore, any German naval designer wishing to compete with France only needs to supply their new battleship with a weapon capable of defeating the relatively light armor of the two aforementioned French battleships. Obviously, the Germans felt that a 13" weapon would be sufficient for the task. Beyond this, the German design was also armored sufficiently to withstand return fire from the French battleships at envisioned combat ranges and would have been capable of outrunning the French battleships by 3.5 knots. Arming the new German battleship with a gun larger than what was necessary would have not only been unnecessary overkill in the firepower department, but also would have taken tonnage away from armor and propulsion. When France announced the construction of the 15"-armed Richelieu the Germans were forced to react in order to maintain parity with France. We can see with the Bismarck's just how much an increase in gun caliber affects tonnage... as in order to mount 15" guns the ships length, armor, and top speed all had to be 'nerfed' in order to remain within tonnage limitations (although in actuality the ship turned out to be a 40,000t design rather than the 'legal' 35,000t that was announced publicly)

Finally, WG's new German tier 8 premium battleship Odin is in the files and available for viewing on 3rd party websites. It has been some time since we've gotten a German premium battleship so this is certainly exciting. But the question arises - Just what is Odin? Does she have any real roots in actual history? And just how realistic/plausible is WG's rendition of the ship? I hope to answer these questions in this thread. First things first... Yes, Odin is historical... but only barely... The Odin originates from the German naval conference of 1933 in Berlin in which the Germans discussed the threat posed by France's new battleship Dunkerque which were entirely superior to the German Deutschland class and forced the Germans to cancel the remaining Deutschland class ships. The Germans needed an answer to the Dunkerque, and this meant having a ship, at the very least, with armor thick enough to protect against the 330mm shells of the Dunkerque. In total, three basic projects were considered: 18,000 tons, 22,000 tons (both with 283 mm guns) and 26,000 tons with 330 mm guns, which cost 120, 150 and 180 million marks, respectively. The most radical admirals, such as the chief of the Gross naval artillery, vehemently spoke out in favor of the 26,000-ton project with 330-mm guns, emphasizing that parity with France was most important. However, this project presented new problems. Such a ship could only be built on slipway No. 2 in Wilhelmshaven, and docked only in Bremenhaven and Hamburg. That is, during the construction of several of these ships, the Government would also have to fork out cash for new docks. In the end, Raeder ordered a more detailed study of the project of 26,500 tons with the following options for the location of 330-mm guns: 4x2, 2x4 and 3x3. In extreme cases, it was allowed to use a 305 mm caliber. The work should have been completed by the end of 1934, and then it was planned to lay the lead ship. There you have it, Odin was a proposal for a Dunkerque counter. Ultimately, this proposal evolved and ultimately led to the Scharnhorst class. In simple terms, then, the Odin is a Scharnhorst preliminary design. I have, however, been unable to find even the simplest napkin drawing of this proposal... so the Odin really was little more than just that, a proposal. Having said as much, I won't rule out the possibility of WG having found some super sekret dokuments in some archive somewhere. So then, the 1933 26,500t 305mm proposal that is the Odin having no detailed plans gives WG a lot of creative freedom for designing such a ship themselves. I will now review WG's creation section by section and judge it based on German naval practices at the time of Odin's proposal to see just how historically plausible the model itself is. Of course, WG's model is presented in a very late war refit, so I will keep this fact in mind when judging. The Bow - If construction began in 1934 the ship would have assuredly been built with a straight bow, however, seeing as this is a late-war refit the use of an Atlantic bow in WG's model is entirely appropriate as every surviving major German warships after 1940 was refitted with an Atlantic bow or built with one from the get-go. - However, the 3rd anchor on the bow is very perplexing. While the Germans did have warships with 3 anchors on the bow, such as the Deutschlands, when they were refitted with Atlantic bows the anchors were moved up to the deck, as they are here in WG's model, and the 3rd anchor was deleted. Therefore there is no historical precedent for a German warship post-Atlantic bow conversion to have a 3rd anchor on the deck as Odin does here. - The 'A' turret also offends slightly. The Germans very quickly found out that their battleships, even with Atlantic bows, were still very wet forward and therefore, the rangefinder ears on their respective A turrets were either removed (Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Tirpitz) or simply plated over (Gneisenau). Odin, if built, would have assuredly been built with rangefinder ears on her A turret and undergone a similar operation. Obviously, WG chose the option of removing them entirely. However, on the ships that had their rangefinder ears removed, a small 'blemish' was left behind which clearly showed the original existence of the ears. On Odin, there is no such blemish, the turret side is just as smooth as a baby's bottom. (Image of an example of the 'blemish' below) Midsection - First thing first, the bridge itself is fine. While in 1933 the Germans were still using the Tombstone shaped bridge and tube-mast combo, they were starting to gravitate away from that. First with the pyramid monstrosities on the Spee and Scheer which were dreadfully overweight and overall unpopular (Scheer had hers cut short and replaced with a tube-mast above the bridge during her refit because the original structure was so awful.) This led the Germans to their final bridge design seen on Scharnhorsts, Bismarcks, Hippers, and the Z-plan battleships which they stuck with for the remainder of the 1930s and 40s. Even if Odin began construction with a tombstone and tube-mast bridge, or even a Spee/Scheer bridge, its entirely possible that this would have been rebuilt with the more modern bridge either before her completion or before/during the war. - The two funnels. No German battleship designs during the early 1930s that I'm aware of ever called for a twin-stack arrangement and it wouldn't be until the diesel-powered Z-plan ships that we start to see 2-funnel designs (and very big funnels at that, not these K-class cruiser funnels seen on WG's Odin. Because there is no historical precedent for an early-30s 2-stack design, and because I dont see a two-stack conversion during a refit, I'm forced to knock WG here. Perhaps WG gave Odin two stacks so that players could easily differentiate her silhouette from the Bismarck and Scharnhorst sisters in-game?? - The secondaries. The original proposal for the 1933 26,500t battleship called for a secondary armament of 150mm and 105mm weapons. I will go ahead and make an allowance for the 128mm guns since it could be argued that the 105mm guns could have been replaced by these in a late-war refit. However, their positioning is still troublesome. On all of the German large warships that received 105mm turrets, only the Hipper class ever had any of these turrets mounted on the actual deck... on all other ships all 105mm turrets were mounted a level above the deck. So there is no historical precedent for a German battleship to have any DP secondary turrets on the deck. WG should have made a deck above the main deck and stretched this to the sides of the ship and mounted the DP turrets on this level as was the case with the Scharnhorst sisters and Tirpitz. As or the triple 150mm turrets and their locations... its very Yamatoey... however, I cant fault WG for being unhistorical in either the use of triple 150mm turrets on a capital ship design or their centerline-superfiring position as their 1928 Schlachtkreuzer design checks both of these boxes... ... Further, the Odin retains the 6-guns 150mm broadside that all the other German battleships of the era possessed and does so while eating up less tonnage. However, the downside comes in the fact that mounting these turrets in such a way unnecessarily lengthens the ship's citadel. - The catapult. Odin features a twin catapult arrangement between the funnels that spans the width of the ship. I have several issues with this design by WG. Until the Bismarck class, all German large warships that had a catapult had a rotating catapult mounted atop a hangar or other superstructure. The only way the Odin, which is a 1934 pre-Bismarck design, gets a Bismarck-type twin catapult arrangement is if she is refitted with one. This would be one helluva refit as it would not only have entailed removing the original hangar, but also the installation of the hangars below and beside BOTH of her funnels, significantly changing their size and appearance of the fore and aft superstructures... meaning an increase in tonnage for arguably very little gain. Finally, this catapult should not be embedded in the deck like it is in WG's model... there is no historical precedent for such a placement... instead this catapult should be up a level along with the 128mm weapons and just like the Bismarck class... Aft - The Stern is a headscratcher. I can certainly see what the WG modelers were thinking, but their thinking is flawed. The issue, of course, is with the step down in the hull and the superfiring position of the aft turret... which is INCREDIBLY Littorio-like. Obviously the thinking behind this was "Deutschland had this step-down and so did the D class which was designed around the same time as the Odin proposal.. so obviously it was a German shipbuilding practice at the time!" Yes, but WHY did the Deutschlands have this step-down in the stern? Simple. So that the Aft turret could fire without blowing the torpedo tubes off the deck. This is also part of the thinking for Littorio having this arrangement, so that her guns didn't blow the catapult off the stern (*cough* USN fast battleships *cough*). "Ah! But Odin also has her torpedo tubes on the stern! Mystery solved!" You say. Not necessarily. Why did the Deutschlands have their torpedo tubes on their sterns? Because they were cruiser-sized and had no room to put torpedo tubes anywhere else on the deck. Odin is a battleship which is slightly longer than the Scharnhorst in-game.. she can make room amidships for torpedo tubes just like the Scharnhorst sisters and Tirpitz did. So, as far as Odin's historical plausibility concerning her model is concerned... I give her a 7.5/10. There's nothing incredibly flagrant, out of the norms, or half-a$$ed with her. She certainly looks like a German battleship and is easily recognizable as such. There are just a few errors in the execution of her design by WG in my opinion. Raise her catapults and 128s up a level, get rid of the 3rd bow anchor, move the torpedo tubes amidships and get rid of the step-down in the stern and she's a 10/10 as far as I'm concerned. I'll leave the twin-stacks as with a single larger stack and all of the other changes I suggested... she starts to look too much like Scharnhorst. Really, though, Odin as a whole is kind of a stretch. If WG really wanted to give us a T8 Gerrman premium BB they could have given us Bismarck's preliminary design instead for which we actually have blueprints and detailed info. It's basically a Bismarck which is faster (33kt) and has a thicker belt (356mm) but has 13" guns instead of 15" guns. This is the battleship the Germans would have built if the Richelieu was not announced to have 15" guns, forcing the Germans to come up with a 15" battleship of their own. I hope you enjoyed my topic. What do you think of Odin? Would you have rather had the preliminary Bismarck design instead?

He is no match for the Stalin-stache! Also, first names don't get much more epic than "Stanislaus"

Any person who gives half a darn about their team will only be playing VU in CoOp anyway where <8km brawling is the norm. I should have clarified. Sorry. Please, please do not play VU in random battles. You are only a weight around your team's neck.