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About Widar_Thule

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  1. Widar_Thule

    iChase.. opens the door.. to leave?

    I slightly changed your post because it reminded me of the USSR. Old ideas die hard...
  2. Widar_Thule

    Not enough CVs per match...

    What is the problem really? Carriers are part of the game. Battleships, Cruisers or Destroyers based on your screenshots also are present at 3+ per side in your matches. And that is ok I suppose? Oh well...
  3. I have "grinded" "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey" ages ago, have almost 4 million elite Commander XP and at least eight level 19 Commanders with about a third or so of the rest at level 11+ and at one point had well over ships (sold many so just under 70 ships now). These things are easy to do when you have the time and/or inclination to do so. But this year I did not have that, so instead I would rather buy "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau", "Güther Lütjens" and even "Luigi Sansonetti" for real world money. And I am not the only WOWS player that would prefer that. It is fully ok if you want to "grind" them and/or have the time to do so. If you also accept that other people do not and seek an alternative way to get them. Some people on my friends list have been playing WOWS since the beta and still have not unlocked "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey" and have only one 19 level Commander. WOWS should offer players that have money but no time a way to get what players that have time but no money already have in WOWS. It is that simple. They can do both: offer a "grind" campaign for those players that want to get them this way and offer a Golden Doubloon way for players that do not have the time and/or inclination to get them via "grinding". Yes a campaign would be a nice idea, for those that have the time and inclination to "grind" like is necessary for "Isoroku Yamamoto" and "William Halsey". For those that do not, a Golden Doubloon alternative is a better idea.
  4. The so-called "lucky ship" Heavy Cruiser SCHEER would be quite an interesting ship to add to WOWS from a maritime history point of view. SCHEER (her code abbreviation was "SC") was the Flagship of the Kriegsmarine till GNEISENAU became operational. SCHEER was the only ship that was "officially" referred to as a "he" (male) and not a "she" (female) in the Kriegsmarine and was arguably the most successful warship of the German Navy in WW2. SCHEER is practically never mentioned and there is a good reason for that: the British Navy tried their very best but were never able to operate successfully against "him", instead they were quite embarrassed by SCHEER's continuous successful operations. https://i.imgur.com/IOH9KFO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/jrA6eJz.jpg From 23 October 1940 till 1 April 1941 SCHEER, under command of Captain (Kapitän zur See) Theodor Krancke, sailed through a polar hurricane to break into the Atlantic after which "he" sailed close to six months in two oceans (the Atlantic and Indian Oceans) while being chased by substantial elements of the British Navy, still the largest navy in the world at the time and more than 10 times the size of the never-fully-rebuilt German Navy. To the embarrassment of the British Navy they never got close to cornering SCHEER due to Krancke's clever course changes and his constant changing of area of operations. During this time SCHEER according to German wartime data sank 17 ships and captured 2 ships totaling 137,223 tons in the North Atlantic, South Atlantic and Indian Ocean. During this period SCHEER intercepted the British Convoy HX 84 bound from Canada to Great Britain, a Convoy thus loaded with goods for Great Britain, sinking nine ships of that Convoy according to German wartime data, of which one was a British Auxiliary Cruiser and two were unidentified but suspected US merchants sailing in disguise under British flag due to the USA still being officially neutral at the time. Making SCHEER the only major Kriegsmarine warship to successfully intercept a Convoy fully loaded with goods for Great Britain. In other words the Heavy Cruiser SCHEER under Theodor Krancke spectacularly succeeded where the Heavy Cruiser GRAF SPEE under Hans Langsdorff quite miserably failed. It is easy to understand why Langsdorff and GRAF SPEE still get attention and praise even today but Krancke and SCHEER are never mentioned. 1940/1941 Operations Map In 1940/1941 the British Navy formed special hunter-killer groups consisting of major British warships to corner and sink the SCHEER, for example these: - Force K operating in the Freetown area on the West African Coast consisting of the, then brand new, Fleet Carrier FORMIDABLE and the Heavy Cruisers BERWICK, NORFOLK and DORSETSHIRE; - A Force operating in the St. Helena area consisting of the Fleet Carrier HERMES and a Cruiser of the D-Class; - A Force operating in the South America area consisting of the Heavy Cruiser CUMBERLAND and the Light Cruiser NEWCASTLE. SCHEER captured the five-story deep refrigerator ship DUQUESA that carried 14.5 million eggs and 3,000 tons of meat. Krancke code named the DUQUESA "Verpflegungsamt Wilhemshaven-Süd" (Catering Office Wilhemshaven-South, Wilhemshaven being the major German Naval port) and used its cargo for three months as a mobile food supply to keep SCHEER, the Auxiliary Cruiser THOR, the Auxiliary Cruiser PINGUIN, the Auxiliary Cruiser ATLANTIS, the Kriegsmarine oiler-and-supply ship NORDMARK, the tanker EUROFELD and several Kriegsmarine submarines supplied. On 22 February 1941 SCHEER has a close call when "he", after sinking the Indonesian steamer Rantaupandjang (2542 tons) north of Madagascar in the Indian Ocean, is spotted by an Aircraft from the nearby British Cruiser GLASGOW. A nearby British Force consisting of the Fleet Carrier HERMES, the Heavy Cruisers CANBERRA, AUSTRALIA and SHROPSHIRE and the Light Cruisers GLASGOW, CAPE TOWN and EMERALD is deployed in a circle and used to hunt and corner SCHEER. Additionally the Heavy Cruisers DORSETSHIRE and CORNWALL are called up to block the area between Madagascar and Mauritius. But again Krancke manages to evade the British Naval forces and SCHEER sails back into the Atlantic Ocean unharmed. In March 1941 SCHEER manages to again evade all British Naval forces, including the British Home Fleet under command of Admiral Tovey, that are deployed from Iceland to Scapa flow to prevent a return of SCHEER to Germany. In the Denmark Strait SCHEER during "his" return to Germany has the opportunity to sink an unsuspecting patrolling British Heavy Cruiser but resists the temptation to do so in order to avoid alerting the British Navy to "his" presence. SCHEER finally arrives unharmed in the German Naval port of Kiel on 1 April 1941. Denmark Strait March 1941 Breakthrough Map The British Navy certainly tried to "Sink the SCHEER!", but unlike with GRAF SPEE, BISMARCK and SCHARNHORST they were never able to due to the way Krancke handled SCHEER. During those almost six months in 1940/1941 the British Navy deployed these major warships against SCHEER: Two Battleships: NELSON RODNEY Two Battlecruisers: HOOD REPULSE Three Fleet Carriers: FORMIDABLE FURIOUS HERMES Seven Heavy Cruisers: AUSTRALIA BERWICK CANBERRA CUMBERLAND DORSETSHIRE NORFOLK SHROPSHIRE Eight Light Cruisers: CAPETOWN DRAGON EMERALD ENTERPRISE GLASGOW HAWKINS NEPTUNE NEWCASTLE Additionally numerous British Destroyers and as well as ship- and land based Aircraft were deployed with and/or operated in concert with these major British warships against SCHEER. After this operation Captain Theodor Krancke was awarded the Knight's Cross (one of only 7,500 awarded to about 15 million servicemen) and promoted to Vice Admiral. Thereafter he was promoted twice more to full Admiral in less than three years' time since his 1940/1941 sortie in SCHEER and became the Operational Commander of most of the German naval forces on the Western Front from 1943-1945. In 1944 he was awarded the Oak Leaves to his Knight's Cross (the 614th of only 863 awarded), becoming the only Kriegsmarine Flag Officer that had commanded a major surface ship on the high seas in WW2 to have received this award. Theodor Krancke From 1941 to 1944 SCHEER participates in several operations in the Arctic region, including the operation against Arctic Convoy PQ 17 which leads to the near total destruction of the fully loaded Convoy. One operation sees SCHEER sail into the Arctic Ocean north-east of Murmansk in the Kara Sea where "he" sinks two, possibly three, USSR merchants bringing the total number of enemy shipping captured/sunk to 21 ships totaling 143,200 tons. SCHEER then shells and knocks out the wireless installations in Port Dickson in Siberia. The USSR used Port Dickson as the main arctic port on the Siberian convoy route, the Siberian convoy administrative center, a radio- and listening station as well as a weather station. The USA Heavy Cruiser TUSCALOOSA, the USA Destroyers RODMAN, EMMONS and the British Destroyer ONSLAUGHT operated in this area and were later joined by the British Destroyers MARTIN and MARNE. During this operation these western-allied naval forces did not intercept the SCHEER, neither did USSR naval and air forces in this area. Operation "Wunderland" (Wonderland) Map In 1944-1945 SCHEER used "his" guns to support German ground forces on the Eastern Front and when SCHEER's gun barrels were totally worn out "he" was sent to Kiel in March 1945 with 800 civilian refugees and 200 wounded on board to receive new gun barrels and undergo needed repairs. On 9 April 1945 the western-allied Air Forces achieved what the allied navies could not: the anchored SCHEER capsized after several aerial bomb hits. About half of the ship remained above the water and was dismantled after the war till about 60% of the ship remained which was then covered with debris in Kiel where "he" remains till this day, partially dismantled but undefeated at sea. Still we should not complain that SCHEER is not included in WOWS, after all we instead have such famous warships in WOWS as STALINGRAD, KREMLIN, SMOLENSK and of course LENIN. Not to mention PUERTO RICO. Soon to be joined by the equally famous ODIN, MAINZ and SIEGFRIED. These totally fictitious ships of course are much more interesting from a maritime history point of view than say SCHEER, ENTERPRISE (no longer for sale despite being arguably the single most important USA warship of WW2) and her sister's YORKTOWN and HORNET, MISSOURI (no longer available), HIRYU (absent since the "Carrier Rework"), AKAGI (absent since the WOWS beta), SHINANO (absent since the beta) and MUSASHI (also no longer available). And with the Battleships from the USSR that were added in WOWS in 2019 we, the players, now have all we could possible desire because according to LESTA/WOWS spokesmen: "If they (the USSR Battleships) had been built they would actually have been the cream of the world's shipbuilding". No doubt the USSR servicemen crewing these fictitious ships would have been the cream of the world's navies as well: https://i.imgur.com/7KqeNyK.jpg
  5. Too Long Did Not Read: For those that have neither the time nor the inclination to "grind" for them: let WOWS sell the "Legendary Commanders" for Golden Doubloons in the Armory this December 2019. Unfortunately this festive season in December 2019 the "Legendary Commanders" like "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau" and "Günther Lütjens" are not for sale in real world money or their equivalent. The only way they can be obtained is by "grinding" Coal. Many players have better things to do than "grind" (meaning spend irreplaceable hours of their life to "unlock" "things" in WOWS) all day to get "things" in WOWS, instead they prefer to use real world money to buy and enjoy WOWS "products" without having to "grind" for them. Recently Malik Khatazhaev, founder and General Manager of Lesta Studio (WG SPb), said something along these lines concerning the PUERTO RICO December 2019 "grind" event: "There are people who play a lot. By themselves (sic), or because of other reasons: working schedule or health issues." "If someone is offended and does not want to play that much, there are two ways: buy it for doubloons or don't pay attention to (the) drydock." "I've simply bought PR (PUERTO RICO) with my salary card, for example." https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/eawzob/so_according_to_wg_spb_general_manager_puerto/?ref_source=embed&ref=share https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/128312-puerto-rico-event-is-a-reward-for-people-with-health-issues/ Well to that I might add: do the same thing for the "Legendary Commanders" in WOWS PC: offer them in the Armory via a "grind" (so for Coal) for those that, according to LESTA General Manager Malik Khatazhaev, have "working schedule" and/or "health issues" and offer them for Golden Doubloons in the Armory for those that can afford to buy them, again according to LESTA General Manager Malik Khatazhaev, for Golden Doubloons with their real world "salary". For those players that do not have the time and/or inclination to "grind" to collect 175,000 Coal simply offer these two "Legendary Commanders", "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau" and "Günther Lütjens", in the armory for Golden Doubloons. It would make WOWS money and would be a nice gesture during the festive season to players that have other things to do than play WOWS all day for items like these. For the price of Golden Doubloons / 175,000 Coal and the additional cost of retraining them it would be more appropriate to make "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau" and "Günther Lütjens" 15 skill point Commanders. What price would be appropriate in Golden Doubloons? Either the default 1,500 Golden Doubloons would be appropriate that was already asked for the 10 skill point "Legendary Commander" "Philippe Auboyneau" during the French Event in 2019. If "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau" and "Günther Lütjens" would be upgraded to 15 skill points a price of 2,000 Golden Doubloons would be appropriate and anything near 4,500 Golden Doubloons (14.81 Euro) overpriced. The price of 175,000 Coal/7,500 Golden Doubloons (24.67 Euro) for "Nikolay Kuznetsov", "Philippe Auboyneau" "Günther Lütjens", which is based on the current conversion rate of the current "Unique Commanders" (35,000 Coal = 1,500 Golden Doubloons) in the Armory, is clearly too high. And while you are at it, offer 25% discount coupons for Commanders as well in the Armory to keep things in line with other items in the Armory. ------------------------- Underneath the Long Story about "Legendary Commanders, "Unique Commanders", "Historical Commanders" and "Black Uniform Commanders".
  6. I agree. Instead I have proposed this: Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 20% (so 20% instead of the current 10%). Talent can be activated once per fight. The USA Commander "William Halsey" also has a 20% aircraft restoration time bonus for his "Hit Hard!" talent, so this would bring the "Air Superiority" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same bonus level. For the GRAF ZEPPELIN, the only German Carrier in WOWS and among the three most expensive premium ships in the game, an aircraft restoration bonus of 10% is too insignificant. The USA Carriers generally have better aircraft restoration times already in WOWS compared to GRAF ZEPPELIN and if they can get a 20% aircraft restoration bonus via USA Commander "William Halsey" then it makes no sense to give only a 10% aircraft restoration bonus to "Günther Lütjens". I have some other proposals for "Günther Lütjens" but posted them in the Development topic: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/204753-st-peculiarities-of-günther-lütjens/?do=findComment&comment=4812772 Hopefully the "Exemplary Reconnaissance " talent will be replaced with something more useful because that too is practically useless. Sadly however WOWS decision makers usually totally ignore the feedback they get from the player base, or even their community contributors for that matter...
  7. Widar_Thule

    ST, peculiarities of Günther Lütjens

    I am well aware that whatever any player posts on this forum is totally ignored about 99% of the time by the WOWS decision makers. Having said that, I post this remark concerning the upcoming German Commander "Günther Lütjens". With the current state of game play the existing German Commanders "Franz von Jütland" and "Reinhart von Jütland" have two improved skills, "Handyman" and "Improved Vigilance" that were already practically hardly useful when these Commanders were introduced and nowadays they are practically useless. Sadly the premium German Commander "Friedrich Bonte" has no improved skills or talents whatsoever in WOWS. Since these three German Commanders have not received a "rework" that makes the upcoming "Günther Lütjens" the only possible German Commander with useful improved skills and talents to be available in the foreseeable future. Looking at the current setup of "Günther Lütjens" I propose to make some adjustments to improve the Commander and make him more useful to all classes and with talents that are more accessible to all players, meaning both the lesser skilled and the highly skilled players. I propose these changes to Günther Lütjens: Iron Strike: after receiving 100 (so 100 instead of the current 140) "Main battery hits" ribbons, the reload time of the main battery is reduced by 7.5%. Talent can be activated once per battle. This makes the talent more accessible for the German Cruisers armed with 20 cm guns (PRINZ EUGEN) and 15 cm gun armed German Destroyers (Z 39) that have a comparatively low rate of fire. The Italian Commander "Luigi Sansonetti" also has a 100 main battery hits requirement for his "Desperate Resistance" talent, so this would bring the "Iron Strike" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level. Defiant Resilience: if his ship's HP drops below 10% , the ship's hit points are partially restored. The talent restores 300 hit points per second. Its duration in seconds is equal to the ship's tier (e.g. Tier V = 5 seconds; Tier VI = 6 seconds; etc.). This talent can be activated repeatedly. This talent replaces the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent that has the same bonus but has the requirement "after receiving 3 "Spotted " ribbons". The "Defiant Resilience" talent would be more accessible to German Destroyers in matches where Carriers are present than the "Exemplary Reconnaissance" talent and it would also encourage players to play more aggressively because of the hit point restoration that would be activated as a result of damage incurred in actual contact and battle with enemy ships, or in case of Destroyers when being heavily damaged by air attacks from an enemy Carrier when flanking. Additionally it would also be the ONLY talent that would be useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have. The "if his ship's HP drops below 10%" requirement for "the Defiant Resilience" talent is the same as the requirement for the "Will to Victory" talent of the USSR Commander "Nikolay Kuznetsov", so this would bring the "Defiant Resilience" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same requirement level. Air superiority: After receiving 30 "Rocket hits", "Bomb hits", or "Torpedo hits" ribbons, the aircraft restoration time is reduced by 20% (so 20% instead of the current 10%). Talent can be activated once per fight. The USA Commander "William Halsey" also has a 20% aircraft restoration time bonus for his "Hit Hard!" talent, so this would bring the "Air Superiority" talent of "Günther Lütjens" at the same bonus level. For the GRAF ZEPPELIN, the only German Carrier in WOWS and among the three most expensive premium ships in the game, an aircraft restoration bonus of 10% is too insignificant. The USA Carriers generally have better aircraft restoration times already in WOWS compared to GRAF ZEPPELIN and if they can get a 20% aircraft restoration bonus via USA Commander "William Halsey" then it makes no sense to give only a 10% aircraft restoration bonus to "Günther Lütjens". Furthermore I propose to replace this current improved skill of "Günther Lütjens": Expert Maintenance replaces Preventative Maintenance, and reduces the the risk of incapacitation of modules by -45% (normally -30%). With this improved skill: Adrenaline Surge replaces Adrenaline Rush, and reduces the reload time of all types of armament by -0.25% for each 1% of HP lost. (normally -0.2%). The Adrenaline Surge improved skill is the same improved skill that the French Commanders "Jean-Jacques Honore" and "Charles-Henri Honore" have. It encourages more aggressive play and it would also be the ONLY improved skill that is useful to ALL classes, something that "Günther Lütjens" currently does not have.
  8. Initial response 1. Naval Training Center The Good I approve of the concept of improving your "favourite ship". I approve of a 3-layer system that improves your "favourite" ship. I approve of a concept where you can improve your favourite ship by playing that ship. The Bad I understand that some people "grind". But I do not. My time on this planet is too valuable to "grind". I just want to play the ships that I like and not waste time on ships that I do not like. If that means buying a premium ship then I will buy the premium ship. This "Naval Training Center" system seems to want to force me to "grind" ships that I am no interested in. If I do not "grind" then I seem to get weaker ships than those that do grind. That concept I do not approve of. It looks as if premium ships are downgraded compared to upgraded ships if they are not upgraded via this "ginding" system. For me as a paying customer it is not acceptable to see my premium ships weakened for no acceptable reason whatsoever. I did not pay money for premium ships to see them downgraded due to an upgraded environment that can only be matched by "grinding" ships that I am not interested in. That concept I do not approve of. I am not interested in playing fantasy ships (meaning ships with no completed design or that were never built) that never existed and not interested in ships that were only brought to a level of readiness after late 1945 (like the Carrier MIDWAY for example). That means that I am not in the least interested in Tier 9 and 10 ships in general and in some national ship lines in particular that have mostly fantasy ships. This "Naval Training Center" system forces me to play Tier 9 and 10 ships several times over to have upgrades to keep my favourite ships competitive. That means this system is trying to force me to do something that I do not like, and thus will not do, to stay competitive. That is unacceptable, if forced to do so then I will play a game where this principle is not at work. That concept of playing a ship line to Tier 9 and 10 ships several times over to stay competitive is a concept I do not approve of. Suggestions for improvement of this system: Allow players the option to get the upgrades for their favourite ship by playing that ship X amount of times. That way it will not feel like a "grind" but just like playing the game as always, just with the added incentive that you will get upgrades simply for playing your favourite ship X amount of times. This "ginding" of ONLY your favourite ship could be allowed IN ADDITION to the "grind" through the lines system that was presented by WOWS today. I would prefer however to allow a player to improve any ship by playing THAT ship X amount of times. Time is precious, do not force players to play ships against their will to stay competitive. Introduce the "Flagship of the Fleet" concept that I have proposed on this forum IN COMBINATION with the "Naval Training Center" system. So use this 3-layer bonus system from the "Naval Training Center": Battleships Level 1 2 3 Name Survivability Main and Auxiliary Armaments Consumable Bonus +15% to hit points -10% to size of the dispersion ellipse +10% to secondary armament firing range +10% to secondary armament accuracy -10% to reload time of all consumables +40% to action time of Damage Control Party +1 charge of all consumables Cruisers Level 1 2 3 Name Survivability Main and Auxiliary Armaments Consumable Bonus +10% to hit points -20% to rudder shift time -15% to size of the dispersion ellipse +10% to torpedo range +10% to maximum damage of torpedo -15% to reload time of consumables +1 charge of all consumables Destroyers Level 1 2 3 Name Survivability Main and Auxiliary Armaments Main Armaments Bonus +10% to hit points -10% to reload time of consumables -20% to rudder shift time -50% to the steering gears repair time -50% to engine repair time -10% to reload time torpedo tubes -10% to reload time main battery +10% to maximum damage of torpedo +2% to chance of causing a fire For the proposal that I made called "Flagship of the Fleet". I am sure that if you allow players to upgrade ONE SHIP like this for FREE, meaning their favourite ship as described in this topic, that they will be much more positive about the system than if you take EVERYTHING away from them by forcing them to "grind" for EVERY SINGLE ship. At least give the players ONE fully upgraded ship, called the "Flagship of the Fleet". The "Flagship of the Fleet" could be implemented as part of the "Naval Training Center" system, so the first upgraded ship the player would then get for "free". The player would get ONLY ONE ship upgraded for free in this manner. 2.Rework of Consumables I approve of this. In fact I do not see any disadvantage with this. 3.Matchmaker improvements I approve of this. On the surface it looks fine.
  9. EDIT: I accidentally posted in the wrong topic. I have removed the text from this topic and re-posted it in the topic for which it was written:
  10. Well now that I have seen the "Naval Training Center" system that will be introduced, I am not so sure. I would not be surprised if a Commander rework is already being worked on.
  11. Widar_Thule

    AA is Ridiculously Over Powered

    I would love to see a hardcore WW2 naval simulator. and buy it.. but unfortunately no one is making one. Maybe the people making Il-2 (Russia) will do something along those line one day, hopefully, maybe. It is a pity, all those billionaires in the USA and not one of them wants to spend 3 millions buckazoids to make a decent WW2 naval sim, you know just for the hell of it... In the meantime we have WOWS... I have to say though.... what you write... do you still believe that after the great "WOWS Carrier Rework" experiment that has been running now since version 8.0 was rolled out in January 2019?
  12. I agree with you on that: people will complain. Because there are always people that find an angle to complain about something. Bless their heart. All fun aside. For those skills where WOWS Development would find it too strong or not useful, they could simply ignore those and not give any bonus when you select that skill. And instead simply only apply the skill to the first three skills that you choose for which a bonus is allowed. Of course that would have to be explained somewhere to the player base. As to possible complainers, yes that could happen. I could even understand that some players would not like it to have to re-skill their Unique Commanders. But they will get a better customized Unique Commander back for it in return, so I am sure they will come around when they see it is to their advantage.
  13. Because I see too many of them that are so scared of Carrier Aircraft that they not even dare to advance to a capture point... A few matches back I had several matches where I got a close "escort" in my Tier 8 Carrier GRAF ZEPPELIN, by that I mean someone sailing right next to my ship for the whole match. Just some anecdotal example. Once for example a Tier 9 MUSASHI took up position right next to me in the bottom row of the map and sailed alongside my Carrier for the whole match without firing a shot, I had a collision every time I changed course. Another one was a Tier 10 MONTANA doing the same. Then there was a Tier 10 CHABAROWSK that sailed along my Carrier the whole match and that wrote in chat that he refused to capture with Carriers in the match because Destroyers were "unplayable". In another match a Tier 10 SHIMAKAZE took up position between my Carrier and the fleet and stayed there the whole match without doing anything. All of them were experienced players...