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  1. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    That's irrelevant to the topic, and while it's strictly true, it's impossible not to do that in games where you have enemies over 270 degrees around you. I'm also not complaining about being shot at, or the damage from everyone else. I got what I got because of the type of game it was and what I was willing to accept in return for the damage being done, and what the team needed to happen. I'm not sure where you think I'm a straight line player - well, yes, I actually moved in a straight line in two situations: (1) moving from one cap to another undetected, and (2) fleeing from the BBs. Oh, why do I bother with you. You can't stay on topic, you can't be bothered to know the details of strategy or the game. At least Crucis had an opinion he could back up with an argument.
  2. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    That's only directed at you in those discussions, Manon, because you DON'T know what you're talking about, and I've repeatedly explained with basic facts WHY you don't. You've got virtually no experience in DDs, and don't seem to understand how the game mechanics and game play meta works. Oh, and I'm actually as much, if not more, of a Cruiser player than a DD player. AP penetrations on DDs have a significantly higher than 33% damage chance - this applies not just to BB, but also to CA AP fire. That's because they can cause both module damage, which is repairable, but also that DDs have certain critical hitboxes which increases the amount of damage taken. It's not quit citadels, but it's similar. Oh, and while it most often happens end on, that's not the only place. I just re-looked at my replay from the OP, and when I got hit by that 1 Colorado shell, it was in the front 1/3rd of the DD and hit at about a 70 degree angle from the rear. Unfortunately, while I can repost the replay, it doesn't show the summary screen where it's obvious. I knew I should have screencapped that. At best, you can look at the actual game. Right at 10 minute mark. 20171208_190135_PJSD207-Shiratsuyu_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay
  3. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    Actaully, no, due to critical hitboxes, pens on DDs can do more than 33%. If you don't know that by now, try reading some more. So please don't speak out of your [edited]and call me a liar without actually knowing what you're talking about.
  4. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    Because BB AP even with overpens is reasonably effective against DDs. And if you don't think that switching between AP and HE on cruisers and DDs is important, then play some more. I'm asking that if you, as a BB player, want to be MOST effective against DDs, you should have the right ammo loaded. You can be *somewhat* effective with AP, but not the devastating one you are now. First off, this is a game, so real life doesn't apply for any justication. Go re-listen to the Flamu video. Secondly, DDs explode from single hits 10x or more often than BBs do. So that's a nonsequitur. Thirdly, you're asking for exactly what I'm NOT: the ability of your ship type (the BB) to nuke whatever it wants regardless of skill. So, yeah, if there's a DD that pops up and you've got AP loaded as a BB, you SHOULD BE in a panic. Because it's YOUR fault he's that close. If you'd played right, you'd have HE loaded, and could run a very good chance of blowing him out of the water with a single salvo. But what you want is the ability to make that kill strike, regardless of whether you bothered to pay attention or not. That's ultimately why BB AP Pens on a DD are bad - not because it encourages bad or sloppy DD play, but because it encourages sloppy BB play.
  5. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    OK, let me back up here. Why is everyone thinking that requiring a BB player to hit "1" before they shoot at a DD and expecting to do significant damage is so much of a difficulty? That forcing BBs who want to cause significant damage to pick the right ammo type before shooting is some unbearable burden? Do we expect a BB to get a citadel on a BB or CA when shooting HE? So why are we rewarding BB players (and it is a reward) for NOT doing the same thing when shooting at DDs? An overpen still causes 1k+ damage, and it's still noticeable. But right now, there's no reason to switch, because BB AP is just as, if not MORE effective, against DDs than BB HE. How is that balanced? And again, this is NOT about DD play, because the problem occurs whether you're elite or potato in a DD. The problem manifests itself if you charge, or if you don't - it's a general game mechanic problem. So quit thinking that this is a PEBKAC issue on the DD's part.
  6. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    OK, I get it. You're a BB Baby who just wants to blow stuff up and not worry about having any skill.
  7. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    This has nothing to do with rushing a BB or even having the BB spot you or anything involving bad/unskilled play on the part of the DD driver. Both instances I quoted (and most of the other places I see this kind of stupid thing happening), the DD is 10km+ away from the BB, and being spotted by something else - typically a DD or aircraft. Heck, for the gunboat DDs who's whole point of existence REQUIRES them to be spotted much of the time, "hide" or "dodge" isn't a viable strategy, when a BB can pretty reliably land a bare minimum of 1 shell on you (out of a 9-12 shell salvo) at anything under 15km. It has nothing to do with wanting DDs to be immune to BBs, or even not threatened by them. A BB firing HE should still absolutely be a major threat. This has everything to do with Rock-Paper-Scissors and the constant coddling of BBs at the expense of everyone else. AP pens on DDs cause even worse damage than citadels on cruisers, proportionately. A BB AP citadel on a cruiser causes no more than 30% of that cruiser's health. BB AP pens on a DD cause a MINIMUM of 30%, and as much as 45%, per hit. NOTHING else comes close to that kind of single-hit damage capability, except torpedoes vs DDs. The whole point of having different shells types is they're supposed to be useful in different situations, and it requires the BB to actually have situational awareness to be properly effective. This issue is pretty much the same problem as RN BB HE: they've so strengthened a single ammo type, that there's no need to ever switch ammo, regardless of target or position or situation. I found a good Flamu video discussing EXACTLY why BB AP Pens on DDs are a really bad game balance: Try right about 7:00 - 8:30 mark for a nice summary as to exactly why this is a bad mechanism.
  8. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    AP against something so fragile as a DD goes right through without causing damage! All it does is punch 16" holes in the ship. There's no game reason to have it cause that much damage. You don't have to switch, you just have to have the right ammo if you expect to do decent damage. AP overpens still do 1-2k each. Having BB AP do massive damage to DDs just makes for incredibly bad BB gameplay and lazy players. And Crucis, for someone who plays as much as you, you really don't get it, do you? I had to explain to someone else why citadels are a terrible idea for DDs, and the current implementation of AP Pens/SuperPens is exactly the same reason. Nice, content-free reply there. Totally won me over with your insightful commentary. Moron.
  9. Pens from BB AP on DDs MUST STOP...

    And today, yet again, I've seen BB AP used to nuke poor DDs. Had a friendly Gneisenau wipe a full-strength Mahan off the map with a single AP volley - that's 14k+ to the poor guy. 3 games later, and me in a Shiratsuyu, take a SINGLE AP hit from a Colorado that did 6100 damage. That's just shy of 50% of the max damage a Colorado can do with a shell (12400). I had to look at the after-action screen to see what hit me, and sure enough, it was just a single shell. I was already down around 50% health, and that put me down to about 5%. wth! I'm tired of lazy-[edited]BBs just lobbing AP (or spaming HE, in the case of RN BBs) and never having to think at all, just nuke anything that comes along, derp, derp, derp, derp.... The BB who wacked me had PLENTY of time to switch to HE, because I got spotted by another DD 8km from the Colorado. But no... Why bother? Why have to think? Why learn anything? Just hit the mouse button, and all your targets explode! BB AP should ALWAYS overpen a DD if WG had the sense of a brick. Heck, it was a "super pen" on me, as a normal Pen should have only caused about 4k in damage, not 6k.
  10. This. It's one of the reasons that raw stats are a very bad indicator of how good a player is. I too an pretty decent (i.e. a bit above average) player, but certainly not great. However, my personal stats make me look like I'm a mediocre player at best. You know why? Because of the times that I play (and don't play). When I'm on, the quality of game player is FAR above the "average" - late night games attract really only those with far-above average stats, and that's who I play against. I happen to enjoy it a lot. But, since I am usually one of the lower skilled (in comparison) players in the game, I tend to be less successful in terms of raw stats (i.e. WR, damage, XP, etc.). The opposite happens when I very rarely play during mid-day weekends, when the potato crop is in full bloom. I can easily get a 20-point bump in WR, and double my per-game kills. In short, the quality of the people on when you play is a HUGE determinator of whether or not you have potato-level stats, or unicum-level ones. MM really does need to take into account experience level of the players when making matches. There are various ways to do this at least passably, but WG seems to completely ignore the problem, for some unknown reason.
  11. Potential Damage

    One thing that does help BBs a great deal in the potential damage situation is their ability to shatter/bounce large percentages of the shells that actually hit them. Potential damage doesn't just include stuff that missed, it includes the max values of everything that hit you, too. So if you're in a big armored BB, and have games where you can angle against opponents shooting light-caliber weapons at you (even HE), you'll take a massive amount of "potential" damage but a very small (relatively speaking) amount of actual damage, and the damage that you do take is almost certainly 100% healable. I've gotten 2 million potential damage games in a Gneisenau where it certainly wasn't me doing some super-nimble dodge-them-all play, but rather where I was being shot at mostly by DD gunboats and low-caliber cruisers, and something like 80%+ of their "hits" were either bounces or shatters. At 1500+ per shell of "potential" damage, when you shatter 300+ 120mm shells, that's half a million right there. And you can tank almost a million in potential damage from a 3-minute fight with something like a rapid-fire light cruiser, particularly if your opponent makes mistakes in where they aim. Note that I consider this accounting GOOD, because it rewards people who angle and position themselves well, so while they might take a lot of hits, their superior positioning minimizes the damage they actually receive.
  12. DD Incentives

    Aww, isn't that cute, worrying about my Win Rate. That doesn't come across as condescending one little bit, nor is it relevant (FYI: you might take a look at my recent - i.e. 6 month WR, and also take into account the type of DD I play heavily, not to mention WHO I play against mostly). You know what's truly lacking in WowS, is unicum skilled play by ANYONE. The sad truth is that all the things you bemoan about DD players is true across the board. If anything, the higher the tier, the better the DD player is, because the game is so much less forgiving that it weeds out the bad players (and, of course, the lack of popularity/availability of higher-tier premium DDs make pay-to-win much less common in DDs than other ship types). You also seem to be missing two things: (1) your particular ability is irrelevant, because it's far outside the mainstream average, and we're talking about average play as what counts when determining whether rewards are correct or not, and (2) who cares if you win, if the rewards for winning are so far below every other type? Seriously, if being a good player is supposed to be it's own reward and a Win will make it all better, why do all other ship types earn far more rewards for worse play? That is, win or lose, DDs still get far lower amounts of rewards than other ships, so remind me why that's fair? That in cases I see all the time, a "good" DD play (not a great one, but absolutely not just mediocre) earns that player LESS XP FOR A WIN than half the losers get? My list is NOT flawed. It's a list of many of the things that a good DD player does to influence the game for a win, and for which they receive nothing more than the +50% bump to the very limited actions WG decides ARE worth XP. Compare that to the other ship types, where a similar list of all the things that they do to help a team win DO result in direct XP benefits in addition to the Win bump. Basically, half of a DD's "work" is done for free, while all other ships get paid for all the work they do. Yeah, that's not broken at all. Your argument basically boils down to "Hey, if you're good, you can have a (one) cookie! Nevermind that we gave all the other winning players 3 cookies and the losing players 2 cookies! If you'd lost, you'd get no cookies, so be happy you got your cookie!" In short, the problem is that, for the average player, they don't get the rewards playing DDs that they do playing other ship types, so why should they go through the pain of getting better? That is why you see so much bad DD play, because there's a very low incentive for players to put in the not-inconsiderably higher effort required to get better. Look at the numbers: you have to have a 10% higher Win Rate in a DD than you do in a Cruiser or BB or CV to get the same amount of experience. That's HUGE - at least two standard deviations above average, just to break even.
  13. DD Incentives

    Here's a good example of what I mean: I just finished a game in a T7 Shiratsuyu, as top-tier (mostly T6, a smattering of T5 and T7). Map is Fault Line in domination (3 cap) setup. I went up to A, followed by another DD and 2 CAs. We met 2 CAs and a DD there. I spotted them first, the enemy DD was capping A and smoked up for all of them. My other DD started the counter-cap, and I flushed them out of the smoke with torps (didn't hit anything), but I'm wide of A, so no capping points for me when the other DD caps (they ignore him completely as he's sitting in smoke firing on my spotting directions). I spot them leaving the smoke (they're behind it, so no one else could see them), but I get spotted, and the entire other enemy team starts firing on me (losing about half my health in the process), and totally ignoring my CAs, who they can now see due to the smoke firing min distance. My CAs then promptly wipe out all three enemy ships because they didn't bother dodging at all so focused on me were they. I get in about 10 shots, with 2 hits, while I'm trying not to be deleted. The entire side is now clear of enemies, as they all went east. I turbo over to B which is completely open - expecting the enemy over there to circle back - and barely get there in time to share the cap with a different CA on our team. All the other enemy ships are now 10-15km from there, well outside of torp range for me, and my team is killing them quickly. I can't get spotting because they're all spotted, nothing is in gun range, and when I finally manage to get into torp range, the game ends due to points. I end up bottom of the XP pool by a WIDE margin - average XP awarded is just under 1000, I don't even get 700, and OVER 100 less than the second lowest scorer. The other DD at A got cap points and XP for shooting at the enemy ships at A while they were shooting at me (he was a Fushun). The other CAs at A got to shoot their guns at ships after killing stuff at A because they have 50% more range than I do - not to mention that those two CAs end up 5th and 6th in XP overall. Heck, the Fushun gets 50% more than me, because he gets the solo cap plus all the damage on the enemy ships from being able to fire at them from safety. So, I did EXACTLY what you want a good DD driver to do: spot for my team, force the enemy out of a cap, flush them out of cover, get them to focus fire on me, and then rush to cap an open cap. I got exactly squat for it. 2 hit flags, 1 shared cap flag. 1188 damage. According to the broken spotting accounting, I spotted 1 ship and had 4300 damage due to my spotting. I took 10k damage and 60k potential damage. I have the opportunity to shoot 3 total salvos from my torp tubes at something I could *possibly* have hit - one doesn't hit anything, one I lose out on because my torp tubes take a hit (and I lose the loadout), and I can't dump the third on something because I'm too busy dodging not to die and my CAs kill the target anyway before my torps could possibly have arrived. There's literally no way I could have played that better, and we won A and killed those ships solely due to my activity. No activity I could have done after we won A aside from the shared B cap could possibly have won me any XP, due to the way WG assigns "valuable" contributions, combined with the limits on my ship's capabilities. Oh, and I LOSE 25k silver despite the win, because I'm playing with the TRB premium. Even without that cost, I still LOSE 2k silver in a Win. I can't even get 45k in silver for the victory. Yeah, that's just peachy. (oh, and I've had 5 of these kind of games tonight, which is a bit unusual, but not rare - I do well, but lose money and get jack for XP for playing team-oriented).
  14. DD Incentives

    Let's put this in perspective: You don't get much for spotting, since what is considered "spotting" is completely broken and ludicrously limited. You don't get anything for holding a cap, preventing the enemy from doing so You don't get anything for capping, but not completing a cap You don't get anything for taking an enemy cap (thus halting their point collection, if only temporarily), if you don't compete the capture. In defend-the-base maps, you effectively won't get ANY cap rewards (and that's easily 1/3rd of all games) You don't get anything for smoking friendly ships You don't get anything for "harassing" other DDs - you have to land hits, not just shoot nearby. Driving off an enemy DD by your presence doesn't get you any reward. You don't get anything for map control (whatever ill-defined thing that is) You get VERY little for spotting torpedoes and aircraft Sinking ships is significantly harder in a DD than anything else - the kills/game for DDs is about 25% lower than the other ship types. You get very little for tanking ("potential damage") because you're fragile and thus inherently want to be shot at much less than anything else You hardly ever get citadel ribbons Only certain lines of DDs get large numbers of shell hit ribbons / fires; the rest get BB-level numbers. You don't get anything for all those torpedoes that miss (90%+ of them) DDs as a whole only average under 4 torpedo hits/game While there's a lot that a good DD player does to influence the outcome of the game, DDs are simply not rewarded for this good behavior. The stats reflect this: things like IJN DDs are consistently in the bottom third of XP awarded in games, and no DD is consistently in the top 25% with the exception of certain special ones (USS Black, I'm looking at you), and those are due to only extremely skilled people playing them. And yes, if you spend the entire match spotting well for your team and do little else, you should NOT be bottom of the XP awarded, because it was your spotting that enabled their shots to land, AND it provided very valuable intelligence data about enemy ship movements and map positioning. You shouldn't be top, but the situation right now is that a full-game spotting DD earns less XP than any other ship who merely had a mediocre game and died half way through. And, yes, a DD who didn't get spotted the entire game is very often doing an EXCELLENT job playing (yolo folks excepted). Why should firing my DD's guns be a requirement for me getting good rewards? Do cruisers have to fire their torpedoes to make above-average XP? Do BBs have to cap to get more than mediocre XP? Should CVs be required to cause gun ship damage too? The truth is that very little that a DD is *supposed* to be doing actually results in even modest rewards.
  15. FIX THE DANG MATCHMAKING

    I don't mind T5 so much, but that's because I play MineKaze/Mutsuki, plus Konig and Konigsberg most of the time, and they all survive T7s just fine. My T8 Bismark just gets filled full of holes and sinks most of the time. :-) Whereas my Mogami does just fine against T10s, my Hipper struggles against T9s let alone T10s, and the Edinburgh is great on the right map, and sucks hard on the wrong one. Ever tried playing an Edin on Ocean with T9 and T10s? Radar everywhere, no place to hide, and stuff that outranges you by 7km+....
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