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    Subs still broke.....

    Torpedo homing cutoff distances do not scale logically at all when considering ship classes. Carrier: 1.2km single or double ping Battleship: 2.1km single or double ping Cruiser: 720m single ping, 360m double ping Destroyer and subs: 240m single ping, 120m double ping Have fun trying to dodge homing torpedoes in your cruiser with 2.9x or 5.8x better tracking than when used against battleships. For obvious reasons as well cruisers have no where near 2.9x (or 5.8x) turning ability or speed to deal with the tracking. If you are in one of the less maneuverable large cruisers (e.g Stalingrad), forget trying to dodge them. This same problem shows itself again for the larger and less maneuverable destroyers. (Harugumo, Forrest Sherman, Elbing, Ragnar etc.) But I guess this all fits under the framework that Wargaming has wanted for submarines. Because they themselves have already said before that they want submarines to focus more on hitting the lighter classes (destroyers, cruisers, other subs) over attacking capital ships.

    PSA: Submarine Reticle Changes on PTS

    That is true, but the main victim of shotgun attacks are cruisers. They do not have the maneuverability and stealth to avoid or run from submarines (what most destroyers can do), nor do they have the health pool and torpedo protection values to absorb torpedo attacks (what most battleships have). Cruiser depth charges and air dropped ASW are both inferior in performance to the other classes equipped with anti sub weapons. Lastly, radar cruisers get their main utility tool heavily negated by submarines being able to avoid it by descending to periscope depth.

    PSA: Submarine Reticle Changes on PTS

    I fail to understand how this change will discourage or eliminate shotgun attacks. Does anyone on the balance team even understand basic geometry and logic? How does adding some angle deviation to them make people want to fire them from longer distances? While it is true that firing unguided torpedoes at ranges greater than ~4km is not optimal, it was still a more fair playstyle than shotgun attacks or sitting even further back slinging homing torpedoes. The only thing this change will do is eliminate that mid range unguided playstyle and further force people into the even more unfair playstyles.

    Submarines have me near my breaking point with this game

    The only thing that even poses a reasonable threat to submarines are the airstrike depth charges. Everything else is irrelevant or has low effectiveness. Submarine speed does not decrease further as they go deeper and deeper. Once inside the maximum depth threshold they start following their underwater speed parameter regardless if at 30m or 60m. Since the most recent patch, battery drain does not increase anymore. Finally, submarines generally have some of the tightest turning circles at their respective tiers. Their turning circles across both nations sit in the range of 470m-640m.

    Subs have broken this game

    The homing strength difference between battleships and cruisers is a massive joke. Even the most maneuverable and nimble cruisers struggle with avoiding double ping torpedoes and this is assuming the best case scenario of having space to dodge freely. This class wide standard is held even for cruisers that have average maneuverability and ones that are more like battleships. Cruisers are expected to somehow avoid this homing with nearly 6 times less space compared to a battleship while being no where near 6 times as nimble and also not having the defensive means to absorb the hits.

    Subs have broken this game

    Running a specific build to counter submarines is a pointless task. The most important thing that matters when dealing with submarines is the class you have chosen to play. There are no captain skills or modules that allow for change in homing dead zones and increasing ASW attack range which I feel are the most important parameters when it comes to attacking subs and mitigating submarine attacks. Torpedo protection and larger health pools are also quite important for blocking true 100-0 attacks which unfortunately all destroyers and most cruisers do not have enough to stop.

    The SUB side of the story.

    As of writing this, I have 663 U-2501 battles. From my experience the only thing that even poses a reasonable threat to me is proper battleship ASW plane drops. It is far easier and safer for battleships to attack submarines because of their generally high range (11 km usually), faster recharge time (or charges held) and slightly higher damage. Destroyers risk having me pop up and blast them with point blank torpedoes or possible teammates nearby to kill them. Cruisers either get a standardized 8km range, 45s reload, and slightly less damage than battleship plane attacks (2700?) or the atrocious ship dropped depth charges. Submarines can negate the defensive usage of consumables (radar or hydro) and can cripple or 100-0 the good majority of cruisers the U-2501 can face. So in my opinion, I do think that Wargaming have balanced submarines very poorly. The balance changes applied over the multiple iteration are generally negative with very few positive changes.

    Submarines Survey

    After extensively playing the U-2501, I really question the point/role of forcing submarines into the game. Wargaming themselves have admitted they gimped submarine homing strength vs capital ships to encourage submarines to target lighter ships (like destroyers, cruisers and themselves) but that is definitely not what is needed. Proper submarine play already shuts down nearly any form of cruiser self-agency and blocks a lot of destroyer aggression even without the powerful homing. With this in mind, WG in their incredible wisdom decided that cruisers should get far inferior ASW planes/ depth charges and give destroyers a weapon that requires them to be near suicidal to use and/or an incredibly dumb enemy submarine (not even a guaranteed kill!). Bonus points for radar not detecting submarines at periscope depth so even radar cruiser utility is shut down while being counterspotted from inside its range. Why did the current most effective ASW get given to battleships, which in a sub vs ship interaction, dealt with them the most effectively? (Note: the sub vs battleship interaction is still garbage) Cruisers and destroyers take incredible risk to even use their ASW defensively because they do not have the standoff range, durability, and anti-homing strength to not die to the sub first. I do not think nerfing battleship ASW is the correct direction to go, destroyer and cruiser ASW should be improved to match the risk they take for being closer. With all that said, I have some gripes more specific to the cruiser vs submarine interaction. Cruisers from T8-10 already weren't in the best place (with notable exceptions) with all the high caliber overmatch flying around, CV spotting + air attacks, lethal crossfires and [edited] maps etc. Why did WG decide on top of all this decide to add a class that completely annihilates them with near zero counterplay? It is completely laughable that WG gave cruisers a 720m/360m homing cutoff (single ping vs double ping) for homing torpedoes while being less hardy against torpedoes than battleships which get a universal 2.1km buffer zone. Even when considering unguided attacks performed by homing torpedoes or magnetic torpedoes the alpha strike potential is just perfect for blowing off 50-100% of a cruisers HP in a single pass. How are cruisers supposed to function vs submarines when they can sit at periscope and avoid your radar (if it is a radar capable ship), keep you spotted for long range gunnery, are harder to damage and kill with inferior (damage, reload time, charges held, range) ASW, and to top it all off the submarine can just slide up next to you and 100-0 you himself. All classes suffer from submarines being in the game but from my experiences in the U-2501, cruisers are absolutely shafted in every single way when it comes to dealing with subs on top of everything else the game has to offer.

    Incredible Game Result - Share yours!

    An unfortunate game. :)

    Debate Challenge: Submarines

    Reminder that Wargaming has set a speed modifier (x0.7) for submarine torpedoes when they do not have a pinged target or the torpedo has broken tracking off at minimum homing distance.

    Homing mechanic theory. Why?

    I remember seeing some info about homing torpedo properties that were datamined some time back. The values should be in meters. "dropTargetAtDistance": "AirCarrier": 1260, "Battleship": 2100, "Cruiser": 720, "Destroyer": 240, "Submarine": 240 "noTargetSpeedCoef": 0.7,


    Oh hey I was there 20210907_123342_PASC710-Salem_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay

    How to play the Fat Angry Sausage Line - New German DDs

    I really enjoyed playing through the F. Schultz and Elbing. The vast amounts of positions that you could take up to disrupt the enemy battle line simply because you don't have a citadel (and can't take full pens from BB AP), have concealment superior to any light cruiser, and having a size profile similar to a tiny light cruiser. Combine this with the incredible performance of their 150mm AP shells allows for denying positions + movement of enemy cruisers and creating awkward angles for battleships. This line gets my seal of approval.