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  1. Wikipedia cites Garzke & Dulin (1985), pp. 85, 88 for 3x2 510 mm guns. Also, the 510 mm guns says this. "The last two ships of the 1942 Naval Construction program were to have been battleships of about 90,000 metric tons armed with either eight or nine 51 cm (20.1") cannons. After some study - and perhaps a dose of reality - these ships were redesigned as slightly larger Yamato class ships armed with six main guns in three twin turrets." http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_20-45.php
  2. Are you sure that's A-150? I thought it's armed with 3x2 510 mm guns.
  3. I can't find any better picture of A-150. The only details about it is 3x2 20.1 inch guns, lots of 100 mm secondaries, 460 mm belt, and similar size to Yamato.
  4. The A-150 design with the 3x2 510 mm guns was actually nearly finished. So it's much more feasible and realistic than H-44.
  5. This just shows how ridiculous proposals can be if they don't get seriously considered and actually have finished design. This ship is in the same group as H-44.
  6. The Project 24 just looks ridiculously wasteful. How do you end up being 10,000 tons heavier than a Montana but have less guns? It's only 2 knots faster and armor seems no better.
  7. You're wrong no H-39 was built only 2 were laid down while H-41 design was finished but none laid down. So I say again, I'm only including finalized or nearly finalized designs here, so no H-44. Or else I would include things like Jackie Fischer's HMS Incomparable, Tillman maximum battleships, even preliminary A-150 designs with 8 or 9 20 inch guns. Rough concepts like these are much harder to compare because not much is know about them or even whether or not they're feasible to build.
  8. Added a table for easier comparison of ships. Ship and year of design Montana (1942) H-41 (1941) "Super Yamato" A-150 (1941) Project 24 (1950) Standard displacement 61,470 metric tons 64,000 metric tons N/A 72,950 metric tons Full displacement 72,104 metric tons 68,800-79,000 metric tons about 71,000 metric tons 81,150 metric tons Length 281.9 m 282 m 263 m 282 m Beam 36.93 m 39 m 38.9 m 40.4 m Draft 10.97 m 12.2 m N/A 11.5 m Propulsion 172,000 SHP, 4 shafts 165,000 SHP, 3 shafts N/A 280,000 SHP, 4 shafts Speed 28 knots 28.8 knots at least 27 knots 30 knots Main guns 12 - 406 mm L/50 (4x3) 8 - 420 mm L/48 (4x2) 6 - 510 mm L/45 (3x2) 9 - 406 mm L/50 (3x3) Secondary guns 20 - 127 mm L/54 (10x2) 12 - 150 mm L/50 (6x2) 16 - 105 mm L/65 (8x2) "many" 100 mm L/65 16 - 130 mm L/58 (8x2) Belt armor 409 mm on 25 mm STS at 19 degrees 300 mm vertical, 175-150 mm turtleback, 60-45 mm splinter belt 460 mm at 20 degrees 450-410 mm at 20 degrees Weather deck 57 mm 80-50 mm, 25 mm middle deck N/A 60 mm Main armor deck 183-179 mm 200-150 mm main armor deck N/A (200 mm on Yamato) 165 mm Splinter deck 25-16 mm none N/A 20 mm Bulkhead armor 457 mm front, 387 mm rear 220 mm front and rear N/A (350-300 mm on Yamato) 400 mm front and rear Barbette armor 541-457 mm 365 mm N/A (546 mm on Yamato) 500-415 mm Turret armor 572 mm front, 254 mm sides, 232 mm roof 385 mm front, 240 mm sides, 130 mm roof N/A (650 mm front on Yamato 600 mm front, 230 mm side, 230 mm roof TDS depth 6.25 m 6.5 m N/A (5.1 m on Yamato) 6.2 m
  9. There's a difference between real and finalized or nearly finalized designs and pure conjecture and studies. The former are ships that were ready to be built and we know quite a bit about them while the latter does not. The H-44 is much more speculative than H-41 was so no, not all designs are equal and the ones here are only the designs that were finished or almost finished. If H-44 is included then things like maximum battleship or some of the ridiculous British concepts would also be here but they're not included for a reason.
  10. Also the source said. "The Construction Office of the OKM formally concluded their work on new battleships with the H-41 type and played no further role in battleship development." and "The Commission did not discuss its activities with Raeder or his successor, Admiral Karl Dönitz, or with other branches in the OKM.[38] As the designs for the H-42, H-43, and H-44 battleships were purely conjectural, no actual work was begun. The German navy did not seriously consider construction on any of the designs, which were so large that they could not have been built in a traditional slipway. Indeed, the Construction Office of the OKM sought to disassociate itself from the projects, which they found to be of doubtful merit and unnecessary for German victory." The whole reason I made this "realistic" poll is these ships here are ones that could conceivably be built instead of being pure conjecture. Or else I would have throw ridiculous things like Tillman maximum battleships in here.
  11. H-44 was NOT a design it was just a concept that even the OKM had nothing to do with. People need to stop repeating about H-44 because H-41 was the largest the Germans actually designed.
  12. Personally, out of all of these realistic designs (i.e. ships that could've been built) I'll go with Montana.
  13. So here's a more realistic competition of the ultimate battleships because these ships were actually fully designed and could be built unlike things like H-44. So these ships were much more realistic and feasible instead of being some preliminary studies that weren't going to be built anyways, again unlike H-44. Also, all of these designs are within a year of each other except for Project 24 which I'm giving special favor because Soviet naval technology lagged behind other powers. Summaries mainly pulled from Wikipedia, while making sure that the information was properly cited. Montana (1942): The Montana-class battleships of the United States Navy were planned as successors to the Iowa-class, being slower but larger, better armored, and having superior firepower, returning to the US Navy battleship tradition of maximum firepower and protection while having moderate speeds. This would have been the US Navy's first class of true post-treaty battleships, designed entirely free from treaty restrictions from the beginning. Five were approved for construction during World War II, but changes in wartime building priorities resulted in their cancellation in favor of the Essex-class aircraft carriers and Iowa class before any Montana-class keels were laid. With beams of 121 feet, they would have been the first U.S. battleships as originally designed to be too wide to transit the existing 110 foot wide locks of the Panama Canal. In conjunction with the Montana-class, the Navy also planned to add a third set of locks to the Panama Canal that would be 140 ft (43 m) wide to enable ship designs with greater beam; these locks would have been armored and would normally be reserved for use by Navy warships. Preliminary design work for the Montana-class began before the US entry into World War II. The first two vessels were approved by Congress in 1939 following the passage of the Second Vinson Act. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor delayed construction of the Montana class. The success of carrier combat at the Battle of the Coral Sea and, to a greater extent, the Battle of Midway, diminished the value of the battleship. Consequently, though the design was finalized in 1942, the US Navy chose to cancel the Montana-class in 1943 favor of more urgently needed aircraft carriers, escorts, amphibious ships, and anti-submarine vessels. Displacement: 61,470 metric tons standard 72,104 metric tons full Length: 281.9 m (925 ft) Beam: 36.93 m (121.2 ft) Draft: 10.97 m (36 ft) Propulsion: 172,000 SHP, 4 shafts Speed: 28 knots Armament: 4x3 406 mm (16 inch) L/50 main guns 10x2 127 mm (5 inch) L/54 dual-purpose secondaries Armor: Belt: 409 mm on 25 mm STS at 19 degrees, 183 mm at 10 degrees lower belt Deck: 57 mm weather deck 187-179 mm main armor deck 25-16 mm splinter deck Bulkheads: 457 mm front, 387 mm rear Barbettes: 541-457 mm Turrets: 572 mm front 254 mm sides 232 mm roof TDS: 6.25 m (20.5 ft) depth H-41 (1941) In 1938, the OKM developed Plan Z, the projected construction program for the German navy. A force of six H-39 (the FDG in game) class battleships was the centerpiece of the fleet. Plan Z was finalized by January 1939, when Admiral Erich Raeder, the commander of the Kriegsmarine, presented it to Hitler. He approved the plan on 18 January and granted the Kriegsmarine unlimited power to bring the construction program to fruition. The OKM issued orders for construction of the first two ships, "H" and "J", on 14 April 1939. The contracts for the other four ships, "K", "L", "M", and "N", followed on 25 May. The keels for the first two ships were laid at the Blohm & Voss dockyard in Hamburg and the Deschimag shipyard in Bremen on 15 July and 1 September 1939, respectively. The outbreak of war in September 1939 interrupted the construction of the ships. Work on the first two was suspended and the other four were not laid down, as it was believed they would not be finished before the war was over. Bomb damage sustained by Scharnhorst in July 1941 provided the impetus for the effort to increase the horizontal protection for the H-class. The designers were confronted with a significant problem: any increase in armor could correspondingly increase the displacement and more importantly, the draft. It was necessary to maintain the full-load draft of 11.5 m of the H-39 design for operations in the relatively shallow North Sea. The only option that allowed the displacement to be maintained while armor thicknesses to be increased was to reduce the ships' fuel supplies. A 25 percent cut in range was required, which was deemed unacceptable by the OKM. It was eventually determined that since deep-water anchorages on the Atlantic coast were available, it would be permissible to allow the draft to increase. One of the most significant changes was the decision to bore out the over-sized 40.6 cm guns to 42 cm caliber for the H-41 design. The design staff determined that modifications to the ammunition hoists and loading equipment would be easily effected and that the original turrets could be retained. The ships' main armor decks were substantially strengthened, and a triple bottom was added, a first for a German battleship. The finalized design was approved by Admiral Raeder on 15 November 1941. Displacement: 64,000 metric tons standard 68,800-79,000 metric tons full (depending on fuel load) Length: 282 m Beam: 39 m Draft: 12.2 m Propulsion: 165,000 SHP, 3 shafts Speed: 28.8 knots Armament: 4x2 420 mm L/48 main guns 6x2 150 mm L/55 secondaries 8x2 105 mm L/65 AA guns (can be used as secondaries) Armor: Belt: 300 mm, 175-150 mm turtleback, 60-45 mm splinter belt Deck: 80-50 mm weather deck 25 mm middle deck 200-150 mm main armor deck (no splinter deck) Bulkheads: 220 mm front and rear Barbettes: 365 mm Turrets: 385 mm front 240 mm sides 130 mm roof TDS: 6.5 m depth (very few bulkheads though) "Super Yamato" (A-150) (1941) Design A-150 was a design for a class of battleships for the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN). Begun in 1938–1939, the design was mostly complete by 1941. However, after the start of the Pacific War in December 1941, all work on Design A-150 was halted so that the demand for other types of warships could be met and no ship was ever laid down. Early conceptions of the A-150 battleships called for eight or nine 51 cm guns in double or triple turrets, as the successful construction of a 48-centimeter (18.9 in) gun in 1920–1921 made the Japanese confident that such a large weapon could be built. The designers hoped to give the ships a top speed of 30 knots, which would give them a comfortable margin over the American 27-knot North Carolina-class battleships. However, these grand specifications were curtailed when tests culminated in a ship that had a displacement of some 90,000 long tons (91,000 t); it was felt that ships of this size would be "too large and too expensive". Formal design studies instead initially focused on a ship closer to the displacement of the preceding Yamato-class, on which plans had just been completed in 1938–1939, though they continued using a 51 cm gun, with the number reduced to six. Plans for the A-150s were finished sometime in 1941, for most intents and purposes, but all design work was diverted from battleships in early 1941—even though the A-150s' design was virtually complete—in order to focus on higher-priority warships like aircraft carriers and cruisers. Two A-150s, provisionally designated as Warships Number 798 and 799, were projected in a 1942 building program. Under this plan, 798 would have been built in the same dock as Shinano, while 799 would be built in Kure in the same dock as Yamato after a fourth Yamato-class ship was launched. The ships would have then have been finished in 1946–1947, but the war's turn against the Japanese after the Battle of Midway meant that the need for ships other than battleships never abated. Displacement: about 71,000 metric tons full Length: 263 m Beam: 38.9 m Propulsion: Unknown Speed: at least 27 knots Armament: 3x2 510 mm (20.1 inch) L/45 main guns "many" 100 mm (3.9 inch) L/65 dual-purpose secondaries Armor: 460 mm at 20 degrees belt, no other information given TDS: 5.1 m depth or more judging from Yamato Project 24 (1950) What started as a refinement of the Project 23 Sovetsky Soyuz battleship design became a new successor battleship designed called Project 24. In the years 1944-1945, Project 24 was designed with information of the Montana-class that were planned for construction in the USA. Later, when it became known about the cancellation of the order for the Montana as far back as 1943, the only opponent of the new battleship could be only be American Iowa-class which drove the subsequent development of the project was 24, though periodically in as opponents, the Montana would reappear. In 1948, work on the Project 24 (together with a group of specialists headed by the acting chief designer FE Bespolov) were transferred from CDB-17 to the newly formed TsKB-L (from the end of 1949 - TsKB-16), where, together with the Design Bureau of the Central Research Institute of the VK, the development of variants of the pre-project project, on the basis of which the requirements were compiled, and the development of various particular issues, continued. As of January 25, 1949, 483,000 rubles were spent on the development of the Project 24. The design was mostly finalized by 1950 with the XIII proposal chosen. With the death of Stalin, the continuing the design and construction of heavy artillery ships ceased to be relevant to the leadership of the fleet and industry, and when adjusting the plans for military shipbuilding in April 1953 all the work in this area, including the Project 24, was closed. Displacement: 72,950 metric tons standard 81,150 metric tons full Length: 282 m Beam: 40.4 m Draft: 11.5 m Propulsion: 280,000 SHP, 4 shafts Speed: 30 knots Armament: 3x3 406 mm L/50 main guns 8x2 130 mm L/58 dual-purpose secondaries Armor: Belt: 450-410 mm at 20 degrees Deck: 60 mm weather deck 165 mm main armor deck 20 mm splinter deck Traverse bulkheads: 400 mm front and rear Barbettes: 500-415 mm Turrets: 600 mm front 230 mm side 230 mm roof TDS: 6.2 m depth Ship and year of design Montana (1942) H-41 (1941) "Super Yamato" A-150 (1941) Project 24 (1950) Standard displacement 61,470 metric tons 64,000 metric tons N/A 72,950 metric tons Full displacement 72,104 metric tons 68,800-79,000 metric tons about 71,000 metric tons 81,150 metric tons Length 281.9 m 282 m 263 m 282 m Beam 36.93 m 39 m 38.9 m 40.4 m Draft 10.97 m 12.2 m N/A 11.5 m Propulsion 172,000 SHP, 4 shafts 165,000 SHP, 3 shafts N/A 280,000 SHP, 4 shafts Speed 28 knots 28.8 knots at least 27 knots 30 knots Main guns 12 - 406 mm L/50 (4x3) 8 - 420 mm L/48 (4x2) 6 - 510 mm L/45 (3x2) 9 - 406 mm L/50 (3x3) Secondary guns 20 - 127 mm L/54 (10x2) 12 - 150 mm L/50 (6x2) 16 - 105 mm L/65 (8x2) "many" 100 mm L/65 16 - 130 mm L/58 (8x2) Belt armor 409 mm on 25 mm STS at 19 degrees 300 mm vertical, 175-150 mm turtleback, 60-45 mm splinter belt 460 mm at 20 degrees 450-410 mm at 20 degrees Weather deck 57 mm 80-50 mm, 25 mm middle deck N/A 60 mm Main armor deck 183-179 mm 200-150 mm main armor deck N/A (200 mm on Yamato) 165 mm Splinter deck 25-16 mm none N/A 20 mm Bulkhead armor 457 mm front, 387 mm rear 220 mm front and rear N/A (350-300 mm on Yamato) 400 mm front and rear Barbette armor 541-457 mm 365 mm N/A (546 mm on Yamato) 500-415 mm Turret armor 572 mm front, 254 mm sides, 232 mm roof 385 mm front, 240 mm sides, 130 mm roof N/A (650 mm front on Yamato 600 mm front, 230 mm side, 230 mm roof TDS depth 6.25 m 6.5 m N/A (5.1 m on Yamato) 6.2 m
  14. It's a good looking ship though. So what if Soviet navy wasn't all that great in real life? If it's fun I'll take it.
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