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P_51D

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About P_51D

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  1. I agree with basically everything you're saying here. But just to make my point clear: A DM shooting a BB at 18 km has about the same effective HE DPM as an HIV shooting that same BB. A DM shooting any cruiser at 18 km will have far lower effective DPM than basically any other cruiser. You're right, the best way to deal with cruisers as a DM is to stay stealth and get them to overextend into you. Below 11-10 km there is no other cruiser that can out-trade a DM (except maybe Moskva, which can shatter much of your HE and has okay DPM of its own). And this is the main reason I don't like the UU change. It (kind of) forces DM to be a long range ship, which is something we all know DM is not the best at. You lose the concealment that makes DM such a powerful cruiser killer. And that's the DM's main role imho: to overwhelm any cruiser with its high close-range DPM and amazing AP angles. Yes, I understand you can still use islands for that purpose but sometimes there's just no islands you can use. A competent HIV or Zao player will never give that type of opportunity to a DM, and open-water at 12 km the HIV will begin to out-trade the DM. And it's not like DM is OP in this cruiser-killer role either, it's just the best at it. There is still active counterplay any cruiser can use: shoot AP at the DM turrets. It only takes 2-4 good AP salvos to permanently break a DM's turrets, even with that main armaments mod. And of course, there's the passive counterplay of positioning. Position yourself so that a friendly BB also has line of fire and a DM can never win that fight.
  2. Oh dang, I never knew about that. After reading that article I assume it can be something like 2 DM's and 2 Shima's on one team vs. 2 Zaos and 2 Gearings on the enemy team. That way nationality is balanced as well as tier and type (just my guess). I know in practice I rarely see an even number of radars per team unfortunately. Players have been asking for balanced radars for a long time now, but I can see one reason why WG hasn't done it. Radar Minotaur and Yeuyang aren't too common so no one ever expects it (though you should still play your DD as if they do have radar until proven otherwise). Surprising people is at least half the fun of playing radar Mino. But if you saw a Zao and DM on your team vs. a Zao and Mino on the enemy team, and you knew for a fact that radars were balanced, then you would know that the Mino has radar instead of smoke. That deprives the Mino of the element of surprise and makes it a bit less relevant (though its stealth radar can still be pretty strong).
  3. Dude, why would you ask me this instead of just creeping my stats and seeing for yourself? DM is my most played ship. I tried both reload and range upgrade before I unlocked the legendary. Yes, you can hit even maneuvering BB's at 18 km. Maneuvering cruisers? Not likely, but BB's for sure. The only BB's that are safe are the ones with really fast rudder shift like Kremlin or Thunderer (which weren't even released back when I used range lol). I feel like I should also point out that HIV actually has lower base HE DPM than Zao, Hindy, and Moskva. So effective HE DPM of an HIV? certainly doable I think. I also feel like you read that one sentence and ignored the rest of my post. I acknowledge that other cruisers are better at the long-range spamming role, and that that's the problem with changing the UU, it kinda ruins DM's unique playstyle to create a pale imitation of other long-range spamming cruisers. I also feel like I should address this. I found the best way to play long-range DM is to light permanent fires and only then switch to AP. At ranges past 16.5 km you should not get any bounces or shatters unless you hit the gun turrets or angled side armor. And deck or superstructure hits should be full pens.
  4. I'm 99% sure the matchmaker only takes into account ship type and tier, not nationality. You could have 3 Des Moines on your team and 3 Zaos on the enemy team. Also, I only mentioned spotter plane for the memes and top-down view to more effectively shoot over islands, not for range. I talked about and acknowledged basically every other point you brought up in great detail in my earlier posts on this topic, which I'll link below. TL;DR: you're right about the DPM at range. Though a DM has significantly more base HE DPM than an HIV, I expect a DM's effective HE DPM to be about the same as that of an HIV at 18 km. And when you can juke better than the HIV ever could with about the same HE DPM you begin to see a problem. However, DM will also have far more effective AP DPM despite its slow shell velocity because of its improved pen angles guaranteeing deck pens past 16.5 km (more detail in the linked posts). I also call into question the use of range upgrade on a DM, even with UU throttle juking (again, more detail in my linked post). Again you're right, other T10 CA's will have a far easier time dealing with maneuvering BB's and CA's at long range. UU + range DM will be an absolute menace, but only to mostly stationary BB's. So why on earth would you take UU + range DM over Moskva, Zao, HIV, or even Hindy? Those ships are going to have close to the same effectiveness against stationary targets with the added bonus of being better against mobile ones too. And I also talk about why a UU DM is basically forced to take range instead of reload. So why DM, for radar? Lets face it, 10 km radar with 12.1 km concealment isn't that useful (again, more detail in the linked posts). Moskva's 12 km radar with 14 km concealment is far more effective; you're 2km farther back with a tankier hull, thus less exposed to the enemy team. My problem with this UU change isn't that it will break the game or make the DM way too OP though I still think it'll make the meta worse, and I do think it'll be too strong. My main problem is that it ruins the unique (and most fun imho) playstyle of the DM. It's forced to be a long-range HE (and AP) spammer where there are many other ships that fill that role better. See my recommended solution: Since reload upgrade buffs the reload from 5.5 to 4.8 s iirc, I think a nerf to 6.2 s is a good place to start testing (if the change is even needed). And here's the post which has links to other posts where I go into detail about all that stuff (postception).
  5. You bring up some good points. I did try to account for the "NA players playing 'murican ships" and the "play for fun" crowd by only looking at the EU server and looking at only the best Des Moines players but unfortunately, none of us has access to 1st party stats so we might as well call this a dead end. Personally, I don't really think the current legendary/unique upgrade needs to be changed. The fact that you give up 12% DPM or range (especially in this long-range HE spam meta) AND 10% radar duration is enough of a nerf. The current UU gives you some offensive capability in the form of ambushing overextended enemies (which is the most fun you can have in this game imho), at the cost of some DPM. This is probably the first main reason people (myself included) don't want the current UU changed. It's more difficult to pull off the same ambush with reload upgrade, but with the extra DPM you may manage to kill the enemy instead of just severely hurting them, which seems like a decent trade-off. In the broader picture, a perfectly positioned range or reload upgrade DM will be more effective than a perfectly positioned UU DM. However, the real reason I think WG wants to change the UU is because it makes the DM easier to play. Current UU DM is more forgiving to positioning mistakes. Something that might get you blapped for 20k HP with reload upgrade, you may only eat 4k from one BB AP pen with UU as you reverse behind the island. It can also react ~15 s faster to incoming enemy pushes. This is probably the second main reason why average and even above average players (read: not super-unicums), myself included, don't want the current UU changed. However, even with the current UU I still think the DM gets punished harder than every other T10 CA (at least it feels like it vs when I play Zao). That, plus the lower range/DPM and shorter duration radar is enough to keep the ship balanced. If WG still thinks it's overperforming they should say so. The only justification for this change I've seen here was that "competitive players say it's necessary". Also, I'd like some transparency; I'd like to see some first-party stats that clearly show the current UU overperforming. And even when @Hapa_Fodder can show that it needs to be changed, I still don't think moving the UU to the 5th slot is the best way to fix it. Yeah, you can mount UU + reload upgrade, but I doubt many will do so except to try it when the change is made (I know I'll at least give it a shot). Maybe some super-unicums can play around a 3.7 km stealth to max gun range window but I'm not sure any average player will even remotely see it as a buff. However, I outlined my reasons why I think most people will take range upgrade instead of reload in that first post I linked. And to me, taking range upgrade and the lack of stealth kinda ruins the most fun and unique aspect of the current UU DM. (Of course I could be wrong and maybe UU + reload DM will be immensely strong but I doubt it). And if most people do take UU + range (+ spotter plane for the memes of course), then we're back to pre-nerf HIV, which I don't think anyone (including WG) wants in the game. What scares me though is that @Hapa_Fodder managed to conveniently ignore how powerful throttle juking DM at 18 km could be in an earlier reply. I went into this in far more detail in that second post I linked as well. In short, I really don't think it's good for the game. And though I haven't tried range + spotter DM in training room (don't want to spend doubloons to change the upgrade lol) I did run the calculations in that second linked post. Throttle-juking DM with 18 km range and guaranteed AP penetration damage on every deck armor in the game? Bad idea imho. Strong, yes, but still a bad idea. I think the best way to nerf UU (if that's even necessary) is to leave it in slot 6 and actively nerf the reload to 6-6.5 s. That way you give up more DPM for maneuverability based offensive and defensive capability, while still maintaining the concealment and island based ambush playstyle.
  6. @Kingpin61 @ITZ_ACE_BABY @Hapa_Fodder I'm just going to link my two posts from another thread regarding these changes. TL;DR: I think these changes do represent an overall buff to the DM when considering the current meta, but I don't like the way it changes the DM's playstyle and I don't think this change is healthy for the game. I also think there are some unforseen consequences from this change that I go over in detail in the second linked post. Also @Kingpin61 I really don't think Des Moines is OP at all at the moment. In fact, I think it's one of the best balanced T10 ships right now. It has a slew of weaknesses to counter its strengths. It's main strength is its damage dealing capability, which is basically untouchable among other T10 CA's. But it still has some of the lowest average damage. Why? Because of its biggest weakness: its squishiness. DM is by far the squishiest T10 CA and can be heavily punished by any T10 BB (except maybe Bourgoune). Let's just compare these so it doesn't look like I'm talking out of my a**. Zao? Better stealth, better rudder shift, smaller citadel, higher speed. Venezia? Spaced armor, "oh f**k" button fuel smoke generator, smaller citadel, higher speed. Henri? Spaced armor, smaller citadel, higher speed. Hindy? Smaller citadel, 5 heals, and turtleback armor (only effective against cruisers at close range, but still better than DM). Goliath? Deck armor that can bounce all BB AP in the game, smaller citadel, superheal. Moskva? Don't need to say anything more. And ALL of these ships have better torpedo protection than DM (for some reason. Even Wooster has better torp protection). And all these ships except Zao have higher HP pools too. DM also has the lowest base gun range of all these CA's, forcing it to play closer to the enemies in riskier positions. And these risky positions can be rushed by any same-tier BB without fear because DM has no torpedoes, unlike all but the Moskva (which plays farther back in less risky positions to begin with). In my opinion, Des Moines really is the epitome of good, balanced ship design. It highly rewards good play and it heavily punishes poor play and mistakes. A competent player can negate the weakness of squishiness by utilizing good positioning, either with island cover or even open-water. A potato will die in 2 minutes as First Blood. Even good players make mistakes, and mistakes are punished more heavily in DM than most other T10 CA's. North Carolina is in a similar state: very tanky when angled, extremely weak when broadside, very weak to torpedoes. Accurate guns but with slow shells that reward good aim and patience (and that reward good dodging on the enemy's part). And no one is saying the NC is weak or OP. Also your very argument about it being OP is flawed as well. Of the top 5 Des Moines players on EU (stats from wows-numbers.com), all of them have higher winrates in other T10 ships. I looked at EU server not because I'm cherry-picking, but because I know the best DM player in the world is there: TheSailingRobin, who you may know from YouTube. Even he has a higher winrate in Kleber with a not insignificant 25 battles. Other ships are far more overpowered at T10. Ships like Kremlin, Thunderer, Daring, and Worcester have higher winrates than Des Moines played by the best Des Moines players. I'm sure you'd see a similar pattern on the other servers as well. Edit: Added Goliath to the comparison above cause I forgot it existed lol. Can you blame me?
  7. P_51D

    ST, Unique Upgrades in 0.9.5

    I've actually given this topic a fair bit of thought since I last commented here. Yes, Des Moines' rate of fire is far superior to other CA's, even without the reload upgrade in the 6th slot. It has almost 100k HE DPM more than Zao, which is generally considered one of the best HE spammers. However, I think this will be mostly balanced by DM's abysmal shell velocity. @Hapa_Fodder, correct me if I'm wrong here (I got all these numbers from wowsft.com), but DM's AP shell travel time to her range-upgrade maximum range is over 14.3 seconds. I know the HE shells are faster but wowsft doesn't give me that data :( My point is DM's reload/DPM advantage is mostly (but not entirely) nullified at longer ranges due to her slow shells. You can basically only hit and farm BB's at that range, and even then not too reliably. Kremlin with rudder shift upgrade has something like ~13.6 s rudder shift, not to mention another of the most broken BB's in the game, the Thunderer, with a 10-point-whatever second rudder shift. And again I must ask the question, why not take Zao or Moskva over range-mod Des Moines? At longer ranges they are probably nearly as effective at farming BB's, but they have a huge advantage when engaging cruisers at longer ranges as well. A DM cannot hope to reliably hit maneuvering cruisers past about 15 km. It's not even about skill; prediction and aim don't matter when your shell travel time is almost double a rudder-shift built Zao. So a range upgrade DM is a BB's nightmare, nothing more. @Hapa_Fodder I'm sure you and the dev team have given these UU's a lot of thought, but I'm not sure you've considered every possibility. Read my previous post in this thread and you'll see why most DM players with the new UU will likely opt for range upgrade instead of reload in the 6th slot. Another thing to note is that without the concealment upgrade, the difference between the base range and concealment range is the smallest among T10 CA's at 3.7 km, so of course most players will take range in the 6th slot with the new UU in the 5th. I don't think you and the dev team realize how many UU + range DM's are going to be out there. And yes, they will open-water throttle jockey far better than the Henri could ever dream of. I don't think you fear that possibility quite enough. And there's another possibility that I'm sure you and the dev team are aware of, but again you don't fear it enough. Again, correct me if I'm wrong because I got these numbers from wowsft @Hapa_Fodder. Des Moines has improved penetration angles that make it impossible to bounce at a 30° impact angle and even has a possibility to penetrate at 22.5° (or 60-67.5° if you measure it the other way). This is far superior to other CA's 45-30° AP angles (or 45-60° measured the other way). Des Moines has very slow AP shells compared to other CA's which lead to steeper impact angles at longer ranges. In fact, DM AP crosses the 22.5° boundary at just ~14.2 km, and it crosses the 30° boundary at ~16.5 km. This means that it is impossible to bounce DM AP off deck armor at ranges in excess of 16.5 km. Kremlin, which is blessed with the thickest deck armor in the game at 60 mm has an effective thickness of 120 mm considering a 30° impact angle, which occurs with DM AP at ~16.5 km range. DM's AP penetration at that range is 173 mm; it will punch through any deck armor in game and score full AP penetration damage. I ran this calculation at many ranges from 14.2 to 18.4 km just to check: DM AP will never shatter on deck armor at any of those ranges. And because this is deck armor, not broadside armor, it is impossible for the enemy to angle the armor to cause more bounces and shatters (short of capsizing your ship that is). And this guaranteed AP damage brings up another point. I know carriers are here to stay (despite my and the majority of players' hatred of them), but the vast majority of players agree that AP damage you cannot angle against is unfair and unfun to play against. Just look at all the hate Hakuryu AP bombs get, and look at how many clans bring them to clan battles because of that effectiveness, that unfair advantage. Now you want to make UU + range upgrade a viable pick and add even more AP that you cannot angle against. Sure, a number of DM players will stick to the concealment + reload upgrade build that was popular before unique upgrades were added. But I'm willing to bet that there will be many UU + range upgrade DM builds, and some may even give up radar for spotter plane for maximum memes. These DM's will rain down HE on any BB in range, and once they light 1 or 2 permanent fires, they will switch to AP for guaranteed AP penetration damage. Where HE shells would shatter, each AP shell will do 1650 damage in addition to those permanent fires. And of course, these DM's will also have legendary upgrade, which means they will be nigh impossible to hit, far worse than the Henri that you so effectively neutered a few patches ago. This upgrade will make the game and meta far worse than it is now. I have seen this future, and it scares me. It should scare you too.
  8. P_51D

    ST, Unique Upgrades in 0.9.5

    Concealment isn't about when you're behind the island, it's about getting to the island. I wouldn't say Des Moines is in a better spot exactly. It's better because of the meta. It will be a formidable long-range HE (and AP) spammer, and probably more toxic than pre-nerf throttle-juking HIV, but in doing so it loses what makes the DM unique. Before, you had the stealth to get to any advantageous island position unspotted, and you could use this element of surprise with the quick acceleration of the unique upgrade to spring hilarious ambushes on enemy cruisers and use the radar to spring up on DD's. Also, most CA's will still out-trade a DM at longer ranges just due to its poor shell velocity. In return you gave up DPM or range AND radar duration. Now with the new UU, you'll likely be spotted getting into that same island position, meaning any competent player won't be ambushed. In addition, Des Moines is probably the squishiest CA at T10, so you might eat a ton of damage getting to that island position. So you play more safe, farther back, which makes your radar useless until late-game when the battle is already decided and you need to clean up that last DD. And since you're playing further back, you probably take range instead of reload upgrade which further forces you into the long-range spammer role. And though you still have the acceleration to ambush ships, you either won't catch them by surprise because of the lack of stealth, or you'll be too far away for your slow shells to be as effective as before. And now in return you give up concealment, the most important stat in the game (and that 5% dispersion buff). Not to mention your already poor 6.4 km air concealment gets even worse at 7.1 km (with 5.8 km AA range and WG decided you shouldn't have any way to upgrade that either). In essence, the new Des Moines UU turns one of the most unique (and fun to play imho) CA's in the game into just another long-range HE (and AP) spammer. And that begs the question, why take this over Hindy, Zao, Moskva, or Venezia? Edit: and also, who believes this is worth 2 line regrinds?
  9. Damn, that is too bad :( It was an exciting replay too; I guess it's lost forever now
  10. Does anyone know a website I can use to download older versions of the game client? I have a replay I want to record but it's from an older version of the game (0.8.1 I believe).
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