PotatoMD

The IJN CLs exist to make Zao look good and justify not buffing it

I've got a better method, and this one has been 100% effective so far:

I diagnose you with straight line disease. This is usually fatal, but luckily we caught it early. Take two of these daily and you'll be fine.

1: You bring this point up every single time you are called out about blatantly dismissing the arguments of anyone that is highly skilled, but where's your evidence of this? Otherwise without that it's just baseless nonsense. You can't just dismiss every single person that disagrees with your own narrow viewpoint as biased and part of some conspiracy. 2: How does that explain this part you so blatantly ignored? There are people on here with unicum status in all classes, including CVs. Many of the upper level players don't only play DDs. And if these people only want to further their own gaming experience, then why would someone like El2azer that so benefits from CVs be so against them? Or even people like me, not unicum but decent and experienced enough at all classes to have a grasp on what makes them good/bad? 3: And if these players were so skilled that these were the only things that could possibly keep them in check (which in itself is ridiculous) then it's obvious that these mechanics are so much more powerful than everything else, no? So it's deserving of a nerf. Game's usually reward players that are highly skilled, not give the worse players an artificial boost in capabilities. You can see this clearly with how CVs and subs work, they have inbuilt ways of making so that mistakes are less punishing, for subs it's their gimmicky saturation and dive mechanics, and for CVs it's plane regen and the lack of the same for AA mounts. 4: Perhaps maybe instead of these players being biased and every single one of them secretly uniting so they can hate on CVs/subs, it's you who is biased and refuse to be honest? But nah, who am I kidding? I better get going, or else I will be late for the weekly "DD mafia" meeting.

Your points are not being taken as serious arguments because the points you are trying to raise can be negated by smart play. You parking behind an island close to a torpedo-armed BB is your fault. You deserved to get punished for that action. You could've seen that coming a mile away, even if he was unspotted. Hydro, Radar, planes, all work on every class except for submarines. A submarine in that exact scenario could soft spot you while 60 m under the water and be completely invisible from you even if you had hydro on as long as he was outside of 2 km. Then would be able to shotgun you without even being spotted assuming you don't have hydro on, since the detection of a submarine at periscope is below 2.5 km. A better position would prevent your death in against any other class, except maybe a CV. If you were open water kiting away, a BB, CA, or DD would never be able to yolo you, due to you seeing them so much earlier, especially with use of consumables. Since you wouldn't know where the submarine is, you wouldn't be kiting as hard as if you saw a DD rushing you, so it's an easier shot for them. And even if you did, you cannot actively fight back without a friendly submarine using his consumable (which only unlocks after an average game is half over), an oil spill, or him giving his position away by prematurely pinging. The point is, even at a major disadvantage due to the ship you picked you can still have a decent chance of coming on top as long as you play smartly. The same cannot be said for submarines or carriers, which is why so many top players so heavily dislike them. And if a class able to completely negate a skilled player without the other player being equally or more skilled exists, it's bad gameplay. This is one of the biggest reasons as to why those classes can be frustrating to fight against, and this doesn't even include the mechanical reasons to why they are frustrating to face. Funny how the only skilled players you seem to trust are the ones that are for CVs and submarines. Now, why is it you don't trust the multitude of unicums that have the exact opposite opinion? Especially ones that have a high level in all classes, not just CVs or subs.

I believe their fix for that was to make submarines still have periscope depth properties down until 15 m. I don't know if that actually helped though.

...There's a difference between refuting your argument, i.e. explaining in detail why I believe you are wrong, and denying, which is what you just did. You are wrong because you are equating a situation that you can put in effort to avoid versus a situation you cannot. Yes it sucks when you are in that position but the main difference is that there is options for skilled counterplay against BBs and CAs, less so against submarines. That's my point. I don't care if it makes you feel bad that your mistake costed you your HP, I'm saying that there were options there to avoid them that don't exist with subs. Everyone has a reason for thinking the way they do. Doesn't mean they're all arguing in bad faith. I have a multitude of justifications for feeling the way I do about submarines and WG. I am very willing to speak on why, and often do. For example, I feel like I did a good job at explaining why I think you are wrong. Does that mean I'm just biased and unwilling to change my mind? No, you just have bad justifications for your arguments. So somehow you are right even though you didn't read the other person's argument, just because WG is forcing subs into the game? In what world does that make sense? What you did was say you are correct without ever looking at the other side's perspective or arguing why you think so, and left without letting the other respond Yup, certainly. And the people that don't like subs are just the minority Oh, what was that? Using that is useless because it's just the vocal minority? Then what business do you have trying to use your like/dislike ratio as justification for anything? You can't have it both ways. Besides, I know personally I never "dislike" anything on this forum because it adds to their forum karma score. It's completely useless.

Let me get this straight, you: Ignored the opposing argument Strawman'd their argument Declared yourself the victor Tried to distance yourself before anyone had a chance to respond Why should anyone take your opinion seriously?

? Seriously? @ArIskandir Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. Not even I thought that WG would do something like that.

Last time I played subs was 3 months ago and I remember being able to clearly see ships while at 30 m. And the video in the post you quoted was posted this month... and there's a St. Vincent on the team so don't even dare trying to say it's an old replay.

Yes... I know, It's called max depth now. What I was saying was that it's functionally no different from operating depth. I haven't played submarines in a while, but I haven't seen any patch notes relating to this so I'm going to assume it's relevant. 30m and 60m depths have a difference in that you can still receive spotting info on enemy ships from your team. (Not my video) You can see here that despite being at 30m "max depth" that the Hindenburg can still be seen. The submarine is clearly inside hydro range if he was at periscope level or higher due to the indication above the dive capacity timer. Yet the Hindenburg is completely blind of his presence while the Hindenburg is fully rendered and targetable. I don't know when the game was played but the video was posted this month, so...

Surface is surface, obviously, periscope is at 7 m but lasts until about 15, and the rest is "max depth" Operating depth was removed a bit back (although what's the point since as long as you aren't at the bottom you still get info from teammates, it's essentially operating depth with another name) Also as a side note, at periscope a submarine has basically proxy spot range for their detection. At most IIRC it's like 2.2 km? About the same as the stealthy DD air detection.

Oh, so you mean like how submarine hydrophone was split into two consumables, so the sub player doesn't have to choose between spotting a submarine and spotting a surface ship? But that's ok, right? Because it's the protected class that gets it instead of everyone else? Now I know you're trolling. It's not as if airstrikes and DCs are literally the only way to hurt a sub under the surface. These do minimal damage when he isn't submerged, and subs anyway have super saturation on their hulls so shellfire isn't nearly as effective as it should be. Yes, which is the exact reason why there are CV super-unicums that think carriers are broken... Oh wait... It's funny how the better you are at the game in general, the lower of an opinion you have of CVs.