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Phoenix_jz

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About Phoenix_jz

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    Ammiraglio di 1ª Divisione Incrociatori Pesanti
    -Italian Heavy Cruiser Ace-
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  1. Far from it, Colorado would still have some inherent advanatages in raw health points, half a knot of speed, and still having her special heel. They wouldn't be that far from each other balance wise, and it wouldn't take much to tone WeeVee down to be equal - perhaps shaving off 0.1 sigma, since we're going for more of a secondary focus than main battery.
  2. As an aside - it should be noted that WeeVee's FC at Surigao Strait was actually inferior to that of Colorado as she is in-game, as she was still using the Mk.8 FC Radar (Colorado is presented in her 1945 form, with the Mk.13). That being said, real-life accuracy means bugger all in this game, guns that were famous for tight dispersion get crap dispersion and vice versa. And the FC is the player, and the player alone. Anyways, while I agree tier VI is silly, I'm in agreement with crzyhawk and Lampshade. WeeVee is no tier VIII. Just comparing to Massachusetts; > WeeVee's heal pool will be inferior > Her armor is inferior > Her main battery is inferior > Her secondaries are inferior > Her AA is inferior > Her top speed is massively inferior The only natural advantage she has is her tighter turning radius. Even if you throw gimmicks like DF AA at her and give her the Mass treatment to her secondaries, she's not at all tier VIII potential. She's better off at tier VII, where her modernization can actually make her feel 'modern' compared to other Battleships, rather than the 'oh man, I'm outta my league's that would result from her being in the tier VIII-X MM bracket.
  3. If you're getting punch in when bow on, than that's most likely overmatch - and if your bow is overmatched, the transverse bulkheads won't save you. Rng affects many things in the game, but penetration is not one of them. If they're penetrating you, it's because they were close enough, the angle wasn't great enough, or your armor just wasn't enough.
  4. It depends on which guns on which ships are being shot. The inclined armor gives you a better figure to start with when you angle, so that you don't have to angle nearly as much to not get citadelled - which means it's easier to bring all your guns to bear, and makes you more flexible overall
  5. And an inclined belt is still stronger than a non-inclined belt when angled... you end up having a better figure to start with. It entirely depends on which ship and what guns - and how much you angle. There are many ships with tough belts (Montana, Roma, etc) that don't require you to be at autobounce angles to deflect shells at even decent ranges. Yep, and those numbers are correct (as far as I remember everything larger than Henri IV's guns have 6º). However, even with that effect and inclined belt is still superior, unless the incline is negligible (as it is on the Colorado-class). Thus, Colorado essentially has 'no' incline because of normalization, whereas a Massachusetts still has considerable inclination, and so there is still about a 7 km difference between the range a given gun would penetrate their belt.
  6. That's because the power of guns increases massively as you get into the higher tiers. Even just the difference between the guns used at tier VII and VIII is huge gap. That being said, even the thinner belts like that on Massachusetts (307mm/19°) performs better than WeeVee's (343mm/2°) beyond 10 km, and the gap only increases with range.
  7. That's great, but that's not the game. Heck, two of the three ships being referenced by Friedman are 14" ships of the Tennessee-class. They were still slower with inferior armor and armament to any of the fast battleships (including AA) - but that was somewhat balanced by the fact they had modern fire control, so they were able to operate at a similar level of capability even if still inferior in every regard to the modern BBs (save for maybe TDS).
  8. The problem is at tier VIII she's nothing special - in fact, even with the refit she's inferior. Armor, Firepower, and Speed, and that's assuming she keeps the unrealistically fast reload Colorado has. Other tier VIII are able to more effectively output damage, are better protected, and of course, have the massive speed advantage. I agree at tier VI she's going to be boring and suck, but just because she had upgrades compared to Colorado, doesn't mean she's fit for tier VIII. She's just not strong enough as it is even if she didn't face the disparity in speed - but, that disparity does exist to add to her woes. If we really want her shine, especially in regards to her modernization, tier VII is the best spot, as that's a tier where her AA power will actually shine and be special, and she can be tuned to balance compared to Colorado (as I mentioned before, the loss of half a knot and the special heal are starting points). This will actually let her be special, and it would also avoid the issue of the crowding of tier VIII USN premiums, instead putting one at tier VII where the USN has no BB premiums.
  9. I'd be curious as to what source gives 40x4 40mm bofors, as that's an incredibly high amount. Pretty much everything I've ever seen gives 10x4 40mm/60 Mk.2 Bofors
  10. No... forty 40mm Bofors. 10 quad mounts. 159.0 dps @ 3.5 km. That's actually slightly less than Colorado, which has 161.1 dps at the same range, but this is generally greatly made up for by WeeVee's far superior long-range AA battery (twice as much dps and greater range), and by having about 90 more dps from her 20mm guns compared to Colorado.
  11. I'm still not entirely sold on this idea, and I'm not sure representing its modernization by putting it into a tier where it's out-classed by much more modern designs is a way to recognize its improvements. Ultimately, if a ship is going to survive at a given tier compare to its peers, it has to be able to win in at least one area of the holy trinity of battleship design; which is Armor, Firepower, and Speed. At 20.5 knots, WeeVee is at a massive deficit to speed (7 knots behind NC and the SouDaks), which means she needs to make up this gap in firepower and armor. With 343mm/2º, her armor is less than most other designs - to compare to her successors, the belt of the Massachusetts/Alabama is worse on paper at 307mm, but it's inclined at 19º and is superior to West Virginia's at 10 km and beyond (and within that range it doesn't matter), the gap only widening as range increases. The same is true for North Carolina, albeit only at 15 km and beyond. As the main battery of these fast battleships is outright superior by having an extra gun and dealing greater damage on a per-shell basis (plus greater penetration), her only hope at playing catch-up is her now-upgraded secondary battery... except it only brings eight guns to a broadside compared ten from the Fast Battleships. It should be noted that her anti-aircraft armament, upgraded as it is, is also inferior to that of any of the Fast Battleships she would be compared with at tier VIII. Even if her secondaries are given the Massachusetts treatment, they're still not going to overcome those of the better armed and armored (and faster) Massachusetts. Who also happens to have more health, due to greater tonnage. And therein lies the issue. She's at a massive speed deficit to other tier VIII's, and does not make up for this in armor or armament, where she is inferior across the board. She'd be caught in the unfortunate position of being inflexible due to her low speed, making it difficult to keep up (or flee) from the action compared to other battleships - and even barring that, she's not as well protected as any of them, and nor is she as offensively capable, so even if she can engage when and where she wishes, she's going to be at a disadvantage. Some of this can be compensated with special consumables and modules, but at the end of the day it's just pushing her up to the position of being a maybe-good-enough-for-this-tier ship, which is a rather unfortunate position to be in. It also adds a third American tier VIII premium battleship, which albeit unique compared to the other two, is also weaker, and that's not even considering the fact that Washington is an excellent candidate for the same tier. Tier VII is a very different situation, as while 20.5 knots still sucks, it's much more viable. At such a tier she'd be able to compare more favorably in terms of armor to various opponents that are faster than her, and stand on equal (or higher) ground in terms of armament. With her modernization, compared to Colorado, West Virginia would have greater health (slightly), much better anti-aircraft firepower (much better than average for tier VII), and a more powerful secondary battery. This would be compensated by the loss of 0.5 knots (negligible), the use of a regular Repair Party instead of the boosted one used by Colorado, and a longer main battery reload (Actual reload was 40 seconds compared to 30 seconds on Colorado in-game, so it would actually make West Virginia a more historically accurate ship). Thus, WeeVee could still enter the game in an modernized state, at a tier where those modernizations would actually matter and give her an edge, without making Colorado irrelevant - who's anti-air and secondary power is inferior (and health, slightly), but has a superior heal, a half-knot speed advantage, and perhaps a faster reload. This would also make WeeVee unique as the only tier VII American premium battleship, instead of adding another ship to the cluttered tier VIII roster.
  12. Worst design flaw you can think of?

    Well, allow me to throw out another unfortunate ship. Without a doubt, one of the worst classes of cruisers ever accepted into the Italian navy was that of the first Condottieri group, the Giussano-class (the only class with ships actually named after Condottieri, but that's a different story). The problem with these cruisers is they weren't cruisers. For this to make sense, let's take this back, because context is king. During WWII, the Italian navy made heavy use of their few Scout Cruisers (esploratori), small and fast cruisers that could scout ahead of the fleet, carried a decently heavy armament, and outrun pretty much anything. These proved to be very useful in the Adriatic, and had great influence abroad. However, Italy was also experimenting with smaller versions, esploratori leggeri (Light Scouts), which were much closer to large destroyers than small cruisers. The first of these ships, the Mirabello, were laid down in 1914 and complete in 1916, and were essentially larger versions of contemporary destroyers (reaching almost 2000 tons fully loaded) with 8xI 102mm guns and a top speed of 35 knots. Although originally rated as esploratori, they were quickly re-rated down to esploratori leggeri. In 1921, the next generation of ships was laid down, the Leone-class, with 4xII 120mm guns and a top speed of 34 knots. Although not completed until 1924, this was enough to finally scare France, who had only been exploring such an idea, into action. In 1922, France laid down the first two Jaguar-class Contre-Torpilleurs (Destroyer-Hunters, with a top speed of 35.5 knots and 5xI 130mm guns), followed by four more in 1923. These were completed in 1926-1927, and in the meantime France also laid down the Guépard-class in 1927, which were larger, featuring 138.6mm guns. In response, Italy laid down a new class of esploratori, the twelve Navigatori-class. Laid down over 1927-1928, these featured 6xII modern 120mm guns and a top speed, as planned, of 38 knots (in service initially it was well over 35 knots). Of course, France was not done, and announced another six-ship class, the Agile, which was similar to the prior class but with more reliable guns and able to make 36 knots. It was at this point that Italy had finally had enough, and the Navigatori were the last class of esploratori leggeri. Instead, Italy moved to counter these French large destroyers with a much larger ship with more powerful guns - these were to be the Esploratori Grandi. The design was done fairly rapidly, via enlarging the design of the Navigatori-class. To sustain high speed, new lightweight machinery capable of generating 95,000 shp was used - for context, the Navigatori were 2580 tons full load and received 50,000 shp. This new design was to be 6844 tons fully loaded! This was to propel them to a top speed of 37 knots. In order to main absolute superiority over the French large destroyers, the new design took on a massive upgrade in firepower, accepting eight new 152mm/53 guns in four twin power-operated turrets, with director control, using high velocity shells to reach ranges of over 24 km (over 26,000 yards). They also received a new Fire Control system, some of the first ships to receive the new generation of Italian fire control. For protection, they were fitted with a two-layer armor scheme, with a 24mm main belt to defend against destroyer HE shells, and an 18mm bulkhead two meters inboard to catch any splinters. The transverse bulkheads were only 20mm thick, as was the armor deck, and the turrets only had 23mm armor for splinter protection. This was the Giussano-class, and they were so much worse than they appeared on paper. Because of naval treaties, they were re-rated as light cruisers (incrociatori leggeri), which was a name not truly indicative of their role. The first area that the ships failed in regards to was protection. In theory, it was a brilliant idea. In practice, not to much, because anyone shooting at it saw it as a cruiser, not a big destroyer. And everyone, including the Regia Marina, fired AP shells at cruisers, even the destroyers at closer ranges with their SAP shells. Whatever ships the Giussano's engaged, they would be vulnerable to, as their armor was largely inadequate to stop SAP shells of even destroyer calibers. The position of the catapult for aircraft was on the bow, which made it hard to launch aircraft in poor sea conditions. The main guns, also, had many problems. First of all, they were prone to excessive dispersion, due to their mountings. In order to save weight, the guns were placed in common cradles, and as if that wasn't bad enough, the turrets were also very lightly build, and could not cope with the force of the two 152mm guns firing. Although the ballistics of the gun were toned down, dropping the velocity of the AP from 1000mps to 850mps, and the shell mass from 50 kg to 47.5 kg, it did little to combat this, and the gun was also further plagued by reliably issues in the loading and firing mechanisms, which lead to up to a 10% failure rate, further denting the rather low rate of fire of these guns (4 rpm, or a 15 second firing cycle). Fire Control is another area where the class fell short, namely in relation to other Italian cruisers. Being one of the esploratori, the Giussano's received one of the earliest indigenous systems of Italian Fire Control of the Post-WWI era, the RM Type 1 Version 1, which entered service in 1930. Fitted only to other destroyer classes (including the Leone and Navigatori-class esploratori leggere), it was sort-of in in-between system, very similar to the prototype system fitted aboard the destroyer Borea in 1929, and still carried some similarities to the 1928 Barr & Stroud system fitted to the Trento-class. The system was not terrible, but not at all as good as later systems used by most Italian cruisers and battleships, and this showed in combat. Despite their high speed, this was hard to use in action due to the fact that in all by calm seas the ships could not maintain accurate gunnery against enemy ships at range if going more than 32 knots (because of their stability issues and the inability of their fire control to compensate). For ships relying on their speed to chase down enemy destroyers and run from more powerful ships, that is a critical issue. In the Battle of Cape Spada, where the first of these cruisers (Bartolomeo Colleoni) was lost, she and her sister Bande Nere gave chase to four British destroyers at a range of about 21,000 yards. Their ability to target the destroyers was limited by the rising sun and the smokescreen put up by the four tin cans, but regardless the Italian cruisers were able to get the range frequently - although they were "unaccountably out of line." Again, when chased by the Sydney and five destroyers (although Rear Admiral Casardi thought it was Sydney and a Gloucester-class cruiser), the Italian ships only slowly opened the range, and were ultimately out-shot, firing about 500 rounds for a single hit on Sydney (0.2% hit rate), while Sydney was able to claim 5 hits for 1300 rounds fired (0.38%), although it's worth noting that two of these came directly after the Colleoni's rudder was jammed and could no longer maneuver. Their armor could also be called into court to determine if it cost Casardi the Colleoni - at a range of about 18000 yards a 6" shell from Sydney penetrated into Colleoni's aft boiler room, which could've come though either the belt or deck armor (I don't actually know which). However, if we look at the third class in the series, the Montecuccoli-class, it would've been largely safe. With a thicker main armor belt (60mm versus 24mm) and a thicker longitudinal bulkhead (25mm versus 18mm), and a thicker armor deck (30mm versus 20mm). The bulkheads were also 40mm versus 20mm. Such protection would've largely keep a Montecuccoli safe at the same range of engagement. As a final note, the Italian cruisers were unable to launch scout aircraft due to the sea conditions and the affect on their catapults, so they were denied eyes in the sky. These were undoubtedly the weakest cruiser class used for front-line surface by the Regia Marina in WWII, and subsequent designs would be greatly improved. The Cadorna-class that came directly after this weighed in at just over 7000 tons fully loaded, mostly spending it on improvements and better stability. This lead to a rise of their practical engagement speed, especially due to improvements in their main battery and fire control, although the theoretical raw top speed dropped to 36.5 knots. The catapults were also shifted from the bow to directly aft of the second funnel, between it and the aft turrets. The main battery was changed very slightly, the ship using the M1929 version of the 152/53 rather than the M1926, which doubled the rate of fire, and were much better at sustaining it due to far greater reliability and the fact the guns loaded at any angle. Dispersion was reduced due to the lessened ballistics and a more sturdy, although still too light turret. Overall, this improved main battery performance greatly. Fire control also improved greatly, as the Cadorna-class became the second class of cruisers (after the Zara-class) to receive the RM Type 2 Version 2 Fire Control system of 1931, which Brough great improvements (how average distance was derived, and a greatly improved Gimetro to account for bearing data, and also compensate better for the ship's own movements). The class that came after this (Montecuccoli) improved things even further, namely by being the first cruiser designed to actually be a light cruiser, and incorporated real armor values (as described above), and the issue of the turrets being too light finally disappeared (although the common cradle still resulted in excessive dispersion compared to what could've been). Of course, the only thing worse than the Condottieri just so happened to be their opponents, the French Contre-Torpilleurs. The destroyers before the le Fantasque, when their guns functioned properly, had massive dispersion issues due to their low-velocity (700mps) guns, making them unusable beyond 13 km (about 14,000 yards). With the le Fantasque-class and their longer guns with greater MV (800mps), this was extended out to around 14 km (about 15,500 yards). Due to unreliable ammunition resupply, rate of fire generally never approached theoretical rates, especially as ammunition hoists could not manage more than 20 rounds per minute (supply two or three guns each). That's not where the woes ended for the French destroyers - even the le Fantasque-class, the most capable of the large destroyers, had further issues. Although able to make 40 knots in service, because of vibration issues gunnery was only possible from 26 to 30 knots! So as it turns out, these ships, designed to fight each other (the le Fantasque-class received higher-velocity guns specifically to counter the Giussano-class), were all rather ill-suited to do so. The Italian cruiser was a bigger target and had inadequate armor, but it was also able to engage the French destroyers at longer ranges and also at higher speeds. Who wins is anyone's guess - the French believed three of their destroyers, if able to coordinate their fire, could take on one Italian cruiser - but the Italian cruisers also minimally operated in pairs.
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