Tedster_

Because it's a player edited wiki, and nobody has put that info there for her.

The BBAP change was a far bigger nerf to an entire class of premiums than this fire change is.

I want to like PEF, but the guns are just so trolly and just let you down. I love the speed and decent armor, but the guns will troll you the entire time you play it. For reference My PEF stats vs my Konig (a tier lower) stats (which I last played when the DEBB line was released). Basically the same DPG (though I win more in PEF) and my PEF stats vs GC (while arguably overtuned, also still a tier lower). IMO GC just made tier 6 with no stat changes would still be a better tier 6 BB than PEF

Don't really have much pictures of that, but back when they were trying to balance the economy around a "play DD and CA to pay for your BB and CV" idea, they made DD's cost 3k credits to repair and BB's cost 12k to repair, and you weren't supposed to be able to make money in BB's. They had a lot of interesting balance concepts at the time that didn't pan out.

What if I told you they tried that in Alpha?

So I'm sure everybody has their thoughts on the recent BBAP vs DD changes, and there's plenty of reasons for and against the change. I've been playing the game for 4.5 years now and they've done a lot of things to change DD survivability (both buffs like the AP rework of 0.3.1 removing their citadel and nerfs such as the addition of radar or removal of open-water stealth firing). I play a lot of battleships (and have for quite a while), but I play some DD's as well, having ground the IJN DD line in alpha, beta, and now release, as well as playing the various prem DD's and testing new DD lines that come out. I mainly play high tiers, and want to look specifically at the BB ammo vs DD balance at high tiers. There are a few mechanics affecting BB shells fired at DD's, some with very significant effects, especially for HE. Some important ones, not in any particular order Overmatch (this matters more for CA AP vs BBAP, but is important for how BBAP vs DD interactions work) Damage Saturation Module damage Underwater hits Dispersion What I term "double count," which is when the game mechanics decide to align to allow a shell to get two hits worth of damage but only one (usually inaccurate) ribbon. I have seen double overpen, pen+overpen, double pen, citadel+overpen, and citadel+pen damage rolled through my experience playing the game. All of these wind up boiling down to the consistency of each shell. BBAP does a guaranteed minimum amount for each hit you land, while HE can fluctuate wildly, mainly due to some of the mechanics mentioned above, so lets explain more. For this, I will be looking at Montana's shells. Their in-game stats are here: With 13500 rated AP damage, that means 1350 per overpen. The HE is rated at 5700 damage, which is 1881 damage for a penetrating hit. Sounds like an improvement over the AP shell? Not necessarily. The AP shell is not affected by damage saturation, meaning that it will always (thanks to overmatch) do a flat 1350 per shell minimum on anything that isn't the 50mm plating of a Khabarovsk (or 2700 if you trigger the "double double count," which I've managed to do in the current Halloween fun mode with 3 overpens of damage and two ribbons). If the HE shell hits a damage saturated section, it only does 941 damage, which is less than the single AP overpen. So if shooting at a DD that is damage saturated, you are still better off shooting AP. On British BB's with their buffed HE, 419mm AP does 1300 damage per round against a DD. While the 7200 rated damage HE does 2376 damage on a pen, once the DD saturates, this falls to 1188, still below the damage of an AP overpen, and it is still affected by modules and hitting the water. Another mechanic that makes HE less desirable is that it detonates on contact. This has a two fold effect: First, it means that main gun turrets, torpedo tubes, secondaries, and AA guns can "absorb" the shell for no damage (this can happen with AP but far less often, as the AP will usually overpen the module and hit something behind it). Second, it also means that all HE shells explode on contact with the water, thus they can not hit the underwater parts of DD's, while AP can. In this side on view of a Gearing, I boxed the underwater part in red, and the modules in yellow, leaving the green as the main area hittable by BBHE in this lazy MSPaint edit. There's still a decent amount of hittable area, but you can see that there's a significant amount of area below the waterline that HE simply can't hit. This means that a DD is a bigger target to BBAP than it is to any kind of HE. This is where dispersion comes in. While most DD and CL/CA have tight dispersion and if you aim well, can reliably land most of the shells on a DD sized target where you aimed. Most BB's are blunderbusses outside of point blank range, and out side of 12km or so, you rarely will hit more than 1/3 of your shells unless you win the dispersion lottery, and both your aim has to be true and predict the opponent's maneuvers properly. A larger target means more hits on average, which means more damage, and I think many people forget about this part of the mechanics. In this side-on view of Yueyang (a common DD in Clan Battles), known for being lower in the water than a Gearing, the difference is pretty significant. Approximately half of the side on surface area is not hittable by HE, and the superstructure is able to saturate, reducing HE damage further. For some DD's the front turrets are a decent portion of the frontal area, so if a DD is rushing you, you get this profile to shoot at: Note the main turrets and AA mounts boxed in red that will absorb your HE for no damage, and the bow below it can also saturate, while AP will still do its guaranteed overpen damage. Lastly, people say to shoot HE at DD's because of the module damage. However, I feel that the value of module damage is overrated. DD's have the fastest cooldown Damage Control Party consumable in the game on a ship that isn't named Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya. At 40 sec cooldown base for the standard Premium version, that is nearly as quick as a BB takes to reload, and thus is almost always ready at the start of an engagement. Most DD players spec Last Stand on their captains, so engine and rudder are often not repaired, and the only relevant DD AA is from a skill/mod/and/or DF stacked DP main armament so losing the 20mm and 40mm mounts usually is unimportant. If they are immediately needed, a DD will often DCP its main gun turrets or its torpedo tubes. The guns aren't as important vs BB's in the usual "close range ambush" situation often mentioned, so it's the torpedo tubes that are important, as that is the DD's alpha strike. If they are loaded already, temporarily disabling the torpedo tubes does absolutely nothing as the DD player will just hit R and torpedo you anyways, meaning that only permanently destroying them will affect the outcome in that situation. The only other scenario where temporarily disabling the torpedo tubes will affect anything is if they are still reloading, as the reload will be reset (much to the chagrin of the DD cursing that they would have loaded 5 sec later). Thus, the times HE module damage actually is a factor in a BB vs DD engagement are relatively few, not to mention that BBAP can also damage and destroy modules too, but just requires a direct hit. Thus, at the end of the day, I feel that BBAP is significantly more consistent than BBHE. I said over a year ago around various discords when the "double count" stuff first came up that they could make BBAP overpen only and I'd still shoot it over HE due to the reasons I've written above. IMO, what needed to happen for balance was a removal of the "double count" mechanic, and then a reduction of the maximum damage an AP round could deal with a single hit. The "single shell lands for 6-8k" was the stupid part of BBAP vs DD's. Either way, I feel that HE is all but useless due to the drawbacks I've mentioned, and AP is still the preferred choice because of the consistency. HE is just too inconsistent for a "not worth it" level of damage increase, or potentially even a damage decrease due to saturation.

Yamato and Musashi are about the only thing GZ can't citadel. Found the source as well https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/7hizcy/a_proper_look_at_ap_bombs_from_tvii_to_tx/

Yamato/Musashi's citadel protection is a 200mm deck + 57mm weather deck. GZ is close, but still can't cit, but the fuse threshold is like 35mm or so, compared to 70mm or so on the USN AP bombs, meaning Yamato class weather deck arms the bombs for pen damage, but will not cit it.

I want to say something in the 180-190mm range? IIRC GZ's bombers can pen 235-240mm of horizontal protection.

Once upon a time Mogami was the tier 7 in the line and Myoko was the tier 8

I'd recommend attempting to use a program such as teamspeak or discord instead of the in-game voice chat also.

Remember the T29's ears?

the German DD line does not benefit from 1/4 pen last I checked.

I definitely would enjoy seeing some of the NC design studies in game.

Don't forget to halve those HE values once damage saturation kicks in.