COLDOWN

Arl. El foro se ha hundido, pero nosotros seguimos a flote. Ya nos volveremos a cruzar en batalla. Saludos o7

Wow, waking up and reading this has been very emotional. Unfortunately a stage of our shared interests, of our ideas, feelings and life has been lost. In any case, fortunately there will be other platforms to deal with many of these issues (Secret Projects or Navweaps to name a few forums). Thank you all for the interactions and experiences. With your permission I would like to add prominent figures and ghost shadow who have worked in the from the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking communities, who over more than a decade have received or not the deserved recognition for their efforts to create something new for the community based on their research, suggestions or in support of these: @The_Dark_Stark, @BrunoSchezer, @Torenico, @Zuzu*, @Captain_Benevolent_Fair, @brooklyn82*, @Cpt_JM_Nascimento, @RasAlexander and @g* & @kaiser*. It is a pity that so many others must be kept hidden for bureaucratic reasons. So sail we all! *I forgor the exact nick, sorry

Due to the lack of time, I will simply do the calculations and measurements of how the guns and projectiles of La Argentina would translate into the Designs offered to the Argentine Navy. What is notable in these proposals is that the Argentine shells have higher muzzle velocity, lighter weight, and faster rate of fire than British contemporaries in service. Main guns: 152mm/50cs (Santander: 152mm/47cs). Mark and Model: Marca W Modelo 1947 DP (Santander: Mark 16 DP). Configuration: 12 guns, 4×III mounts, XXII guns per side (Santander: 9 guns, 3×III mounts, IX guns per side). Rate of fire: 12.0 rpm, 5.0 s (Santander: 8.6 rpm, 7.0 s). Proyectiles: - AP 152mm M.E.E.: Speed: 900 mps (Santander: 812 mps). Weight: 45.36 kg (Santander: 59 kg). Penetration: 307 mm (Santander: ~317 mm). Damage: 3,000 hp (Santander: 3,400 hp). Barrage: 36,000 hp (Santander: 29,150 hp). Barrage per minute: 432,000 dpm (Santander: 262,250 hp). - SAP 152mm G.S.P.: Speed: 900 mps. Weight: 45.36 kg. Penetration: 42 mm. Damage: 3,750 hp. Barrage: 45,000 hp. Barrage per minute: 540,000 dpm. - HE 152mm G.A.C.: Speed: 900 mps. Weight: 45.36 kg. Penetration: 25 mm. Fire: 11 %. Damage: 2,200 hp. Barrage: 26,400 hp. Barrage per minute: 316,800 dpm. These 3 types of shells are historical, but I couldn't bring myself to suggest which one to discard. Additional feature: Antiaircraft capabilities. Regards

Well, fortunately the existence of variants of British designs of cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers for Argentina during 1947 has been confirmed (which does not rule out offers in previous and/or subsequent negotiations). In the case of 1947 cruisers for Argentina we have: 1) Vickers Design 1124: 12x152 mm, 13,000 lt, 30.5 kn. 2) Vickers Design 1124A-Variant-I: 12x152 mm, 12x120 mm, 14,000 lt, 32 kn. All the weapons are anti-aircraft (improved cannons from La Argentina cruiser and Buenos Aires destroyers). 3) Vickers Design 1124A-Variant-II: 12x152 mm, 12x120 mm, 14,000 lt, 32 kn. As Design 1124A-Variant-I with enhanced protection. 4) Vickers Design 1124B-Variant-I: 12x152 mm, 20x88 mm, 15,000 lt, 32 kn. All the weapons are anti-aircraft (improved cannons from La Argentina cruiser and new designs). 5) Vickers Design 1124B-Variant-II: 12x152 mm, 20x88 mm, 15,000 lt, 32 kn. As Design 1124B-Variant-I with enhanced protection. If we consider the Wg-WoWs criteria of pre-quarantine and pre-war I think this evolution could have been suggested as: VIII) Vickers Design 1124 as researchable. IX) Vickers Design 1124A-Variant-I & Design 1124A-Variant-II as researchable. Design 1124B-Variant-I or Design 1124B-Variant- II as a premium. X) Talleyrand's design of the 1124A-Improved (we mix 1124A & 1124B). Currently, with the interest in dynamics and gimmicks, I think it can be suggested as follows: VIII) Vickers Design 1124 as researchable. IX) Vickers Design 1124A-Variant-I as researchable. Design 1124B-Variant-I as a premium. X) Vickers Design 1124A-Variant-II. Design 1124B-Variant-II as a premium. XI) Talleyrand's design of the 1124A-Improved (we mix 1124A & 1124B). This is the Talleyrand (previous) proposal we can use as tier X/XI mixing 1124A & 1124B: Regards

New documents have surfaced and details of Friedman and Murfin are inaccurate. The number of cruiser designs of this type offered throughout 1947 to Argentina in great detail reaches the number of 5, at least. In the future I will review this publication.

Yes, of course: - Revista General de Marina (Spain, 1925). - Revista de Publicaciones Navales (Argentina, 1925).

This proposal consists of an aircraft carrier that can have a special place in WoWs (if, for example, a new game mode were applied to it, as it will be with the second line of aircraft carriers, soon to be released). Technical characteristics Dimensions - Length: 114 meters. - Breadth: 14 meters. Maneuverability - Power: 45,000 horsepower. - Speed: 30 knots. Aircraft - Capacity: +6. - Manufacturer: Supermarine Aviation Company. Its suggested tier is IV or even VI, but WoWs can raise its level if is decided to apply conceptual-fantasy, like when they took my suggestion from the heavy cruiser Cervera and raised it to tier VIII as Numancia. Regards

Yeah, standard 90mm has 13mm 15mm, so thats why we suggest a similar, but not identical, penetration upgrade to that made on the Japanese destroyers. In variant 2, the use of 7 double 100mm mounts is already proposed. There we can use both Italian 102/45 from Brown-class and 102/50 from La Argentina-unique. Those could be pretty ruthless! And in the event that the previous calibers are not attractive, we can use the 120mm in double mounts (with a lesser number) offered in 1947 to Argentina (the Marca IX* in mounts with 80° elevation, similar to the Spanish Marca F AA).

Main article here: https://reportedebatalla.wordpress.com/2023/06/09/buque-antiaereo-argentino-de-90mm/ made by @Talleyrand This sketch illustrates the 90mm anti-aircraft ship and belongs to the authors of the proposal. History This Anti-aircraft Warship was proposed in the Naval Bulletin of the year 1938 by a group of agents of the Argentine Navy who called themselves "Red". Its function would be to provide anti-aircraft cover fire to the other ships in the fleet. There were 2 variants: 1) 16 x 90mm. 2) 14 x 100mm. We will focus in the first one. In the future we are going to extend more with the last variant. The 90mm variant Profile: The superstructure has been reduced to a minimum, with a low funnel and a small bridge. Since it did not need rigging or high observation posts to direct the anti-aircraft fire, it had been proposed to present this reduced silhouette, convenient to make it difficult to see and be beaten by the enemy from great distances. Displacement: It is either a scout cruiser or a lead destroyer with a base displacement of 4,000 long tons and a speed that should exceed 35 knots. Guns: An assimilable gun is the «90 mm/50 (3.5″) Ansaldo Model 1939 mm/50 (3.5″) OTO Model 1939« used as an anti-aircraft battery in the Littorio class. Its projectile type is HE, its weight is 22.5 lbs. (10.1 kg), its muzzle velocity is 2,822 fps (860 mps) and its rate of fire is 12 to 15 rounds per minute. The 90mm armament would have been arranged in single mounts on the center line, allowing for a greater range of fire. It was intended that the forward and stern batteries could fire forward and stern respectively with ease for anti-aircraft and anti-surface firing and at a convenient height for anti-aircraft firing. The guns would be stabilized, they would carry personal protection and they would be attended and controlled by stations, automatically. The proposed firing points would be independent and so elastically organized that they would allow any one of them to control any battery and even all batteries when that volume of fire is required. Machine-guns: The possibility of using a battery of 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns in 6 double mounts, located in the center of the ship and intended for defense against assault aircraft, was also foreseen. This amazing sketch was created by @BrunoSchezer. Implementation of the 90mm Anti-aircraft Warship For this version of the ship we decided to use Italian technology. And to make the ship more effective we decided to change the amount of mounts in half, so instead of 16 simple mounts we have now 8 double mounts. It is not our intention to break with the idea proposed by Red, but his version of the ship was "weird or anti-technical", to put it nicely. Tier: 8/9. Name: LOS ANDES. Dimensions Length: 145.4 meters. Sleeve: 13.1 meters. Draft: 5.0 meters. Life points Full: 28,100 hit-points (5,553 tons). Maneuverability Power: 80,000 horsepower. Speed: 35.0 knots. Protection Belt: 10? millimeters. Deck: 10? millimeters. Battery: 10? millimeters. Main armament Mark and model: 90mm/50cs OTO Modello 1939 Configuration: 14 (7×II, 14|14). Rate of fire: 15.0 rounds per minute. Reload time: 4.0 seconds. Range: ~13.2 kilometers. Muzzle velocity: 860 meters per second. Weight: 10.1 kilograms. Type: HE 90mm Penetration: 15 mm. Fire chance: 5 percent. Single damage: 1,250 points. Barrage damage: 20,000 points. Barrage damage per minute: 300,000 points. Type: AP 90mm (Alternative) Penetration: 180 mm. Single damage: 1,450 points. Barrage damage: 23,200 points. Barrage damage per minute: 348,000 points. Type: SAP 90mm (Discarded) Penetration: 27 mm. Single damage: 1,950 points. Barrage damage: 31,200 points. Barrage damage per minute: 468,000 points. Analysis of the 90mm Anti-aircraft Warship Survival The ship with 28,000 hit points would rank among the toughest destroyers in the game. But that pool is accompanied by a significant size which makes it an easier target than other more elusive destroyers like a Shimakaze or a Halland. Mobility The 35 knots are not bad for a cruiser, but they are a bit low for a high tier destroyer. It would be one of the slowest destroyers. She is also a long ship, so her turning radius would be wide. Firepower The 16 x 90mm guns immediately stand out. There are many cannons, but of a very small caliber. This would allow it to create, despite the somewhat slow reload, a rain of fire on the target. It would be about 240 shots in a minute on the targets. Each hit has a singular damage of 1,250 points, in the case of being effective, which is not much. However, at a 5% chance to fire, these would give about 10 fires (obviously this is reduced by the target's defenses and stats). For practical purposes it closely resembles the Harugumo shooting. The Argentine would surpass it in damage and, by volume of projectiles, in fire chances. However, the Harugumo has a little more penetration and, of course, torpedoes. The lack of torpedoes resembles it a bit to the Friesland or Groningen. In short, we could see its gameplay similar to a Friesland with the artillery of a Harugumo. Consumables On a Destroyer, consumables are of the utmost importance in determining its gameplay, so we tentatively assign these to them: Slot 1: Damage Control Party. Slot 2: Engine Boost. Slot 3:  Defensive Antiaircraft Fire. Slot 4: Surveillance Radar (9km like the entire Panam cruiser line). Gameplay The anti-aircraft ship gameplay would be pretty straightforward. I can support the Destroyers (with smoke) that are contesting the bases and then use its explosive rain of HE to set the larger ships ablaze. If possible using the islands to obtain cover. At this point it is very interesting that such small caliber guns would have a lot of parabola so it could fire from points where it cannot be fired back. Rivals Against Destroyers: it would be very powerful due to its volume of fire. Even more so if it is equipped with radar. Against Cruisers: it would suffer especially because it does not have any effective mechanism to drive them away. Its cannons can't significantly damage them, much less citadel, it doesn't have torpedoes and it doesn't have the speed that would allow to escape. Against Battleships: it would feel very comfortable. It's just searching for cover and spraying HE shells. Let the fires accumulate and when the battleship puts them out, create 2 or 3 new ones. Against Carriers: it doesn't have particularly offensive weight but it does have enough Antiaircraft to make it a tough idea to attack it, even more so with the active consumable. Against Submarines: it can be problematic to go over them to drop charges on them. But in that respect he resembles almost all Destroyers. General It would be a good cannon Destroyer, but with certain limitations due to the lack of torpedoes and the extreme parabola of the projectiles (it would feel like launching water balloons, at a certain distance). It would still be a nightmare for battleships. I think it would be a very interesting tier 8/9.

And apparently it was a very close battle lol

Regarding this ship you can check this topics and posts:

Histplementation Logic indicates that the "Armstrong 685A" will be implemented in WoWs. However, the place of tier VIII within the Panamerican Battleships Branch is disputed with another design, the "Armstrong D" (we ignore here the argentine ideas, because there is a argentine cruiser branch already). In my opinion the "D" should be the Researchable and the "685A" the Collectible. In general terms, due to the quality of armament, protection and mobility, it is a ship that should be restricted to tier VII. But since a fictitious improvement to the original design is expected, which I have no intention of speculating now, what I will do is only restrict this proposal to an initial or stock hull. Historical technical details - Temporary reference: 1911-14. - Maximum dimensions: 216.4 x 28.0 meters. - Normal displacement: 32,300 long tons. - Full displacement: ~34,000 long tons. - Maximum power: 41,000 horsepower. - Maximum speed: 23.0 knots. - Fuel: 3,600 long tons. - Belt protection: 305 millimeters. - Protection of the covers: 38-25 + 25 + 25 + 25 mm. - Main armament: 10 (5x2, 10|10) 406mm/45cs Armstrong A. - Secondary armament: 14 (14x1, 7|7) 152mm/50cs Armstrong NN. - Tertiary armament: 4 (4x1, 2|2) 76mm/50cs Armstrong ZZ. - Torpedo armament: 3 (3x1, 1|1/1) 533mm/6m Armstrong. Historical technical details of the main battery - Caliber: 406 mm. - Length: 45 calibres. - Projectile weight: 1,074.1* or 997.9** kilograms. - Explosive charge: ~26.9 or ~25.0 kilograms. - Muzzle velocity: 762* or 713** meters per second. - Rate of fire: 1.7* or 1.2** rounds per minute. - Reload time: 35* or 50** seconds. * British source. ** Brazilian source. WoWs Implementation of the 685A The number and caliber of the guns makes the difference here. If we take the Brazilian historical data, we are in for a disaster, so I will combine these with the British and convert the British projectile to the Piercing (AP) and the Brazilian projectile to the Explosive (HE). Survival - Life: 51,600 points (with 34,000 long tons). Mobility - Power: 41,000 horsepower. - Speed: 23 knots. Protection - Belt: 305 millimeters. - Deck: 51-38 + 51? millimeters. Main battery - Configuration: 10 (5x2, 10|10) 406mm/45cs. AP - Weight: 1,074 kilograms. - Speed: 762 meters per second. - Cadence: 1.5 rounds per minute. - Penetration: 771 millimeters. - Single damage: 12,600 points. - Barrage damage: 126,000 points. - Barrage damage per minute: 182,700 points. HE - Weight: 997.9 kilograms. - Speed: 713 meters per second. - Cadence: 1.5 rounds per minute. - Penetration: 68 millimeters. - Fire: 22 percent. - Single damage: 4,750 points. - Barrage damage: 47,500 points. - Barrage damage per minute: 68,850 points. Secondary battery - Configuration: 14 (14x1, 7|7) 152mm/50cs. HE - Weight: 45.4 kilograms. - Speed: 884 meters per second. - Cadence: 6.0 rounds per minute. - Penetration: 25 millimeters. - Fire: 12 percent. - Single damage: 2,250 points. - Barrage damage: 15,750 points. - Barrage damage per minute: 94,500 points. Torpedo battery - Configuration: 3 (3x1, 1|1/1) 533mm/6m. T - Speed: 49 knots. - Cadence: 1.6 launches per minute. - Flood: WIP percent. - Single damage: 7,100 points. Antiaircraft - Rngesus Aircrafts - None. Consumables - Slot 1: Damage Control Party - Slot 2: Repair Party - Slot 3: Defensive AA Fire - Slot 4: Hydroacoustic Search. This presentation is not very elaborate, but it can serve as a baseline.

Yeah, water lever length is 2 meters shorter than La Argentina and with 2.000 long tons more! Unless a lot is allocated to the thickness of the armor, the numbers do not close me. This cruiser is a mistery. Hope one day I can go to the brazilian archives to get more data.

No data. Only: - normal 9000 t - wl 535'5 ft - pp 510 ft - scaled up vickers design 1076 (La Argentina)

Wird title indeed. Main article here. History In the 1930s if a conflict had developed then the Brazilian scenario was not favorable due to the quantity or quality of its ships. Brazil then decided to sought technology transfer with the United States and to acquire warships in United Kingdom. It is during a late stage of this process (between 1938 and 1939) that Brazil decides to acquire light cruisers with 152-mm guns and for this it analyzes from the American Omaha type to the British Southampton type. And according to the records, the Brazilians were interested in the design of the light cruiser La Argentina (the Vickers No. 1,076), but they wanted it modified and rescaled, so by June 19, 1939, the offered design had a normal displacement of 9,000 long tons (comparatively they were 2,000 units more than the Argentine cruiser). Another fact that can be rescued is that a waterline length of 163.2 meters is assumed, a very low value (comparatively this is 2.0 units less than the Argentine cruiser). In short, if La Argentina was a wolf in sheep's clothing, "O Brasileiro" would have been a cruiser with a tiger disaster level. However, the negotiations did not prosper and the Second World War began in September, so it was impossible to order anything. Implementation characteristics Generals Tier – Level: 8. Class – Name: Up-scaled Vickers Design 1,076. Temporary reference – Year: 1939 (~4 years of construction). Name – Label: GUANABARA. Survival Weight and Size – Dimensions: 164* × 18 meters. – Displacement: normal 9,000 long tons and full 10,500 long tons. * I insist that the length data must be wrong. Concealment – Superficial detection: 11.1 kilometers. – Aerial detection: 7.5 kilometers. Life Points – Final: 29,950 points. Protection – Central flotation belt: 86 millimeters. – Upper deck: 26 millimeters. – Longitudinal side of the citadel: (86) millimeters. – Roof of the citadel: 57 millimeters. – Torpedo damage reduction: 6 percent. Mobility Maneuverability – Maximum power of the machinery: 60,000 horsepower. – Power to displacement ratio: 5.7 horsepower per ton. – Maximum speed: 31.0 knots. – Turning radius: 635 meters. – Rudder change time: 8.4 seconds. Main armament Main Guns – Mark and model: 152mm/50cs Vickers-Armstrong Marca W in a triple Vickers-Armstrong Anti-Aircraft mount. – Configuration: 12 (4×3, 12|12) guns. – Rotation speed: 18 seconds. – Half turn time: 10 seconds. – Dispersion: 120 meters. – Shooting range: 14.7 kilometers. – Rate of fire: 7.3 rounds per minute. – Reload time: 8.2 seconds. – Total shots per minute: 87.6 projectiles. – Projectile weight: 59.0 kilograms. – Muzzle velocity: 812 meters per second. AP armor-piercing round – Mark and model: 152mm AP 130lb Mk35. – Krupp constant: 2,445 units. – Penetration: 316 millimeters. – Single damage: 3,400 points. – Barrage damage: 40,800 points. – Barrage damage per minute: 297,850 points. HE Explosive Round – Mark and Model: 152mm HE Mk39. – Penetration: 25 mm. – Chances of fire: 12 percent. – Single damage: 2,200 points. – Barrage damage: 26,400 points. – Volley damage per minute: 192,700 points. Secondary armament Secondary guns – Mark and model: 102mm/50cs Vickers-Armstrong Marca P in a double Vickers-Armstrong mount. – Configuration: 8 (4×2, 4|4) guns. – Shooting range: 5.0 kilometers. – Rate of fire: 20.0 rounds per minute. – Reload time: 3.0 seconds. – Total shots per minute: 160 (80 in volley) projectiles. – Weight: 15.9 kilograms. – Muzzle velocity: 811 meters per second. HE Explosive Round – Mark and Model: 102mm HE 35lb. – Penetration: 17 mm. – Chances of fire: 6 percent. – Single damage: 1,500 points. – Barrage damage: 6,000 points. – Volley damage per minute: 120,000 points. Torpedo armament Torpedo Launchers – Mark and model: 533mm Marca 14. – Configuration: 8 (4×2, 4|4) launchers. – Throwing speed: 0.73 throws per minute. – Launcher reload: 82 seconds. – Rotation speed: 25 seconds. – Half turn time: 7.2 seconds. Torpedo T – Mark and model: 533mm Mark 15B. – Launch range: 8.0 kilometers. – Constant speed: 62 knots. – Detectability: 1.2 kilometers. – Chances of sinking: WIP percent. – Single damage: 16,650 points. – Barrage damage: 66,550 points. – Volley damage per minute: 48,600 points. Additional Anti-aircraft guns – Far range: 12 × 152mm/50cs Vickers Armstrong Marca W. – Medium range: 8 × 102mm/50cs Vickers-Armstrong Marca P. – Close range: 20 (10×2) 25mm/70cs Vickers-Armstrong. Consumables – Slot 1: Damage Control Party. – Slot 2: Specialized Repair Teams. – Slot 3: Defensive Anti-Aircraft Fire or Crawling Smoke Generator. – Slot 4: Short-Range Hydro-Acoustic Search or Spotting Aircraft. Aircraft To be defined. Synthesis The balancing is oriented towards a premium ship and for this reason it is a cruise with “unbalanced” attributes. Its armament is very powerful (4 towers and 12 cannons), but it has a lower firing rate and penetration than the Allende, despite the fact that other characteristics are similar to it. Its protection is low, no detail stands out. So its silhouette, concealment ability and the health recovery consumable are key to its survival. With very low health, only 2 cruisers have a similar value among Tier VIII Collectibles. Its speed is down to 31 knots, which is low and bad. So unlike Allende, it does not have the mobility, protection, or survivability to do brawler maneuvers, but rather has a more conservative style and that is why smoke is suggested as a consumable. Sources – British Cruisers. Two World Wars and After. – Directory British Cruiser Designs 1860-1960. Edit: Add HE main rounds.