thehelmsman

I have been reading your posts, and I understand what you're saying. The main thing I took issue with is the assertion that it's a Weimar problem, when there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest otherwise. People farmed Narai long before Weimar existed and people continue to farm Narai in the same manner with other ships, sometimes even when Weimars are present. When presented with evidence of this, you moved the goalposts; only without the presence of knowledgeable Weimars could other ships achieve this feat, you claimed. The intent to rack up huge scores by capitalizing on the design of the operation and the limitations of the AI, and the knowledge to do so, are what is requisite. These things are the true enablers, and the ship is merely the most effective tool on average because of its capabilities. The main thing that will hold back a Narai farmer isn't the presence of Weimars, it's the presence of other farmers, whether they're in Weimar or anything else. I never disagreed with you that the operation is probably poorly designed in the current state of the game, and I don't disagree with you that farming it in the way I like to do is probably a selfish way to play, but the game simply does not reward team play, except in (ironically enough) competitive modes, and not even all of those. You pointed out ranked, but even there, selfish play is incentivized by the save-a-star system that allows people to fail their way up by doing lots of damage while not actually helping the team materially to win the match. Clan battles and organized tournaments are about the only format where team play is actually subordinate to individual goals, because the rewards people play those modes for come only from helping the team -win- and there's no pity progression. Otherwise, the game mostly rewards dealing damage, and fundamentally, in any given match, there is only so much damage to deal or assist others in dealing. The natural consequence of this is that the people who do the most damage and rack up the most kills tend to get the highest rewards. My goal is to maximize the rewards I get for the effort and time I put in, so, of course, I want to farm Narai and farm it hard. I am not taking anything from you when I do so; you are competing against me for the rewards associated with doing damage, and if you let me out-compete you, you don't get to cry foul for not getting the resulting earnings. So yes, I took a bit of umbrage at you accusing me of literally stealing rewards from other players, which is an absolutely farcical idea in a game where rewards are primarily distributed based on dealing damage to and sinking targets. Thereafter, my tone in replying to you reflected it. But I digress. As you astutely pointed out, attempting to help somebody else and be a 'team player' sometimes gets you yelled at, anyway, as well. All of this disincentivizes team play other than... well, to be a team player for its own sake. It's noble of you if that's enough to get you to consistently look out for others' interests, even at the expense of your own. You claim that "I'm not saying people shouldn't play Missions to farm xp and level captains or anything like that," which sounds good and virtuous... but you kinda are saying that. The whole point of farming is to maximize rewards. Mind, I won't go out of my way to screw over my teammates. If I'm in there with some guy that says "I got transports", for example, I'll assume they know what they're doing and that they can get the job done, leave 'em to it without trying to potshot their shrimps medal out from under them, and go do something else that's useful. And I'll get annoyed if they fail at it, because that actually does take away from the entire team by depriving everyone of the bonus associated with the respective star, which brings me around to the other half of my overall worldview of the game: I generally think I can't count on a bunch of randoms. Because of this, I go in prioritizing own interests, and playing as though I have to carry, right out of the gate; if they want to stop me from 'hogging' all the damage and the rewards, they can do their best to keep up. If you think that's selfish, that's your prerogative, and I guess I don't blame you for thinking that. But it's what the operation (and the game as a whole) rewards, as it is currently designed. Anyhoot, I think we simply view gameplay in different ways, and there's no reconciling that. I appreciate you actually engaging me in a less-accusatory fashion than you did to start with. I was hoping for that. --Helms

Killer Whale is super easy to farm in a similar manner, if you weren't aware. Not quite as profitable to do so, but it is a simple matter that can (and does) leave the rest of the people making their way out of the base without much of anything to shoot at until they reach the exit. Nuremberg is excellent for this. Again... Weimar isn't the issue. Narai is, depending on how you feel about its current state being easy to exploit. You clearly understand this, since you've said so yourself, so I really don't get why you're attacking me. I agree with you on that point. I simply don't care that that it is thus, because it's fun to crush it and it's by far the fastest way to rack up captain exp, so I hope it stays the way it is. People complain about Weimar because it's low-hanging fruit. It has a lower skill floor than other options, that's all. Capt_of_Satisfaction, to his credit, at least understands that it's the nature of Narai itself that's the real issue... if there is one. --Helms

You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions, including about me, and I'm still not sure what your actual gripe is. I don't even think YOU are sure what your actual gripe is, because you keep on shifting the frame between Weimar, players like me (even when we're not running Weimar), and Narai itself. Pick one, please, and stick with it. Preferably, stick with the scenario itself, because at least there you actually have a valid point. Never have I denied that Narai is kinda busted and, to be frank, relatively easy to exploit. I hope it stays that way because, well, it is by far the highest and most reliable return I can get in the game for the amount of time spent on it. I am not boasting about my scores, I provided those screenshots as evidence to support the point I was trying to make. Which, for the sake of clarity, was (and still is) that Weimar is a win-harder platform. A player that can pull off big Narai stomps in Weimar can pull off big Narai stomps in other ships besides. In other words, it's the player, not the ship. Even if I were boasting, you don't care about stats and scores, anyway, so why are you even bringing it up? It seems kind of disingenuous to have that in your signature when you are as good as accusing me of robbing other players--and hypothetically you, by extension--when I beat up bots as hard as I can in a game mode that's relevant only as a faster way to grind through tier 6 and 7 tech tree ships and stock up on a bunch of resources I can use to speed my progress in other areas of the game. That Narai is broken and needs fixing is your opinion and you're entitled to it, and I'll even agree with you... to an extent. You are not, however, entitled to lambaste me for wanting to maximize the results I get from the time I put in. Go and do likewise (and you don't even need to buy Weimar for it, as I have indicated; Fiji and Shchors are quite capable) if you're feeling like you're getting left behind. Or, you know, go play a game mode you actually find to be fun? Weimars don't bother me much, even when other folks run them in Narai. They are definitely competition, but you know what? I like to see if I can beat them. I feel like, as often as not, I actually do. Here's a tip: it takes longer to go for the transports and then get into the zone than it does to go for the carrier and then get into the zone, and you wind up with better angles on more targets besides. A-I-D-A. Attention -> Interest -> Decision -> Action. You obviously are paying attention and have interest. Take the next two steps. Make a decision. Act on that decision. I can promise you that continuing to gripe about whatever you're griping about isn't going to improve your situation or benefit you at all, so perhaps you ought to try some other approach. As I see it, you have two options: get better at performing in Narai as it is now, or stop playing Narai and spend your time in game modes you actually get more fun/rewards from until it gets changed to suit you. One of those two thing is entirely within your control. The other is contingent on something you have no control over and you probably shouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to happen. My suggestion? Go and do likewise; it's not that hard. A-I-D-A. --Helms

Absolutely not true, and my screenshot on the last page proves it. Again... this capability is not unique to Weimar. I did it with Lazo. I've done it with Fiji, München, and Atlanta. Weimar is not the problem. The Narai scenario itself, with regard to how predictable and relatively feckless the bot ships are (with the single exception of the Missouri, which is notoriously trollzy and dangerous even if it is also predictable), may possibly be the problem, and perhaps it needs to be re-tuned. I hope it isn't, and remains the way it is now, because having one operation that is easy to dominate and farm free/captain exp in is very useful and lots of fun for those who know how to do so, especially considering how few operations there actually are with Dynamo, Cherry Blossom, Gold of France, and that other tier 7 op where you attacked the air base in the bay (I forget the name) all pulled from the rotation. And, frankly, it's not even as good a time farming Narai as it used to be, because now a lot of people have caught on and there's much more competition than there was a year or so ago. Too many people doing it. You may disagree with the idea that Narai is fun in its present state, with how easily farmable it is for certain CLs, and that is certainly your prerogative, but understand that it is a subjective assessment, and be honest with the argument you're making. Weimar isn't the real issue. If you feel (which I don't) that there is a significant problem, then the problem exists with the nature of Narai itself. And even if you do.... skip ops that week? I skip Naval Station Newport because it's a pain and requires far more from unreliable teammates, and I don't find it fun. But I'm not complaining about how Newport is tuned. I just opt out of it. If you don't like guys in light cruisers eating food that you think you're entitled to in Narai, well... A-I-D-A. Nobody owes you anything, including WG. https://y.yarn.co/df57d533-f56a-4940-8950-573a536fed38.mp4 --Helms

No Weimar. But there was an Atlanta, which, last time I checked, is also regarded as OPAF in Narai and useless everywhere else. But thank you for proving my point for me: it's the player, not the ship. Mind, my point is not mutually exclusive with your assertion that the Narai operation itself is too easy and predictable, though I do think that's part of why so many people look forward to it. It's definitely why I do. And the team I was on wasn't even particularly terrible; in fact, I potatoed once and ran aground, costing myself valuable time, so if anything my numbers were hindered most by my own mistake. While farming Narai in this fashion may be selfish (may be; I'm not sure I agree, but I cannot say you are objectively wrong to believe that), it is also FUN, and anyone can do it if they have a little bit of interest in learning how, by watching others. That's how I learned. Those Weimars and Lantas I saw putting up 2k+ base exp rounds? I watched what they did. And then I did likewise. The fact that I can also do it in Lazo--and by extension, probably Shchors as well, even though I don't have it any more and thus can't say for certain; it's a safe assumption, since it has even more DPM than Lazo and similar capabilities otherwise--and Fiji, without any real extra difficulty, shows that it's not actually Weimar that's the problem. I've put up 250k-300k damage Narai rounds in Helena and Boise as well, but it's not -quite- as easy to do because they don't have torps and therefore have no way to quickly delete the battleships at the end. I've put up 250k-300k damage Narai rounds in Helena and Boise as well, but it's not -quite- as easy to do because they don't have torps and therefore have no way to quickly delete the battleships at the end. Hell, I had a Scharnhorst round last night--in which I was competing with TWO other Scharnhorsts that also had the same idea as me by the way they charged into the atoll at the end Light cruisers in general have kinda fallen off in randoms; heavies can do just about everything lights can, don't need IFHE to do it, and are more survivable to boot. Weimar is actually pretty good in ranked; there, its advantages are accentuated and its disadvantages are minimized. The lack of range matters less, and there are fewer enemies around to catch it in crossfires (which is the only reliable way of killing it efficiently, since it is pretty much invulnerable to being yolo-rushed) while it lays waste to its target of choice. --Helms

I stand by what I said. If you can pull 350k in Weimar, you can do it in any other CL that has torpedoes and enough speed to get where it needs to go to rack up the damage. Nobody thinks Lazo is overpowered, yet in this one I sank more than all the rest of the team combined. It's far more dependent on knowledge of where/when things spawn, the best routes to get there efficiently, and a bit of luck to not have a team full of other folks similarly motivated. --Helms

Tallinn has been around long enough to be a known quantity, too. I have both ships and can look at stats side by side. They don't always tell you everything. --Helms

Weimar is notoriously beastly in Narai, but frankly if you have the knowledge and the skill to make her sing in there, most other light cruisers can put up comparable results. And this round had three (THREE!) Atlantas in it. Lütjens is what really puts Weimar over the top. --Helms

How does this thing rate compared to Tallinn, these days? DPM is considerably higher but apart from that, is there any reason to keep it around? I never play it any more, and I'm thinking about dumping it to free up an 18 point captain that I could put to better use on something else. --Helms

The Florida we have in the game is more or less North Carolina as it was originally planned under the terms of the Second London Naval Treaty, before the escalator clauses were invoked and it was redesigned with 16" guns. It is a paper ship, yes, but it is also a historical ship in that it's what BB-55 and BB-56 would have been if Japan and Italy had signed the treaty. Still, you are correct; the Florida class that was actually built does deserve to be represented in the game, and Utah is pretty much the only viable option; plus, Utah has the additional attraction of having been present at Pearl Harbor (albeit as a floating anti-air training platform), and as such it is the more historically interesting of the two, anyway. Still waiting for my late-war Nevada and Pennsylvania refits, also. More than anything else at this point, though, I'm wondering why we still don't have Arkhangelsk. There's not much room or need for a Revenge-class in the British tech tree or as a premium, but it's a no-brainer for the Soviets as a tier 6 prem. Slower than Izmail and Novorossiysk but it gets 15" overmatch as compensation, which seems like a fair trade to me. The Revenge class fought in both World Wars and deserves to be in the game. --Helms

Honestly, just start with the tier 4 and work your way up the line. The best part of it is the mid-tiers, anyway, so don't waste the free exp. Dante Alighieri, Conte di Cavour, Andrea Doria, and Francesco Caracciolo are all pretty decent, though the latter does suffer from the trollish dispersion and ovepenetration issues that also dog Roma and Vittorio Veneto. --Helms

Gneisenau, like the rest of its line, is not very well-suited to the current meta. However, I do think it's the oddball of the German BB line (with the other notable exception possibly being König at tier 5) where I'd rather be in the battleship as opposed to the battlecruiser, tier for tier. Heinrich's gunnery is awful, with bad accuracy and weak penetration. That's not a good combination, especially when you're fighting tier 8s and 9s. While Gneisenau lacks the hydro (and I think should get it, honestly), it gains a ton of mobility and, more importantly, Bismarck's guns, which are FAR better suited to the matchmaking spread. I do believe it's the better ship in most contemporary situations. The only time I'd rather be in Heinrich is in Narai or if I knew I could count on top-tier/single-tier matchmaking spread, and in the case of single tier, even that's a maybe. Beating up on 5s and 6s? Yeah, I'll take Heinrich over Gneis. --Helms

Definitely this. As passive and campy as the high tier gameplay is at present, Yamato's strengths are accentuated and its weaknesses are largely made irrelevant. It's far better-suited to present realities of the game than, say, Kremlin is. Yammy is for sure in the top three of the tech tree options, at least for randoms. --Helms

Here she be, slowly being cut up and turned into razor blades. Not a very dignified end, if you ask me. - --Helms

KGV and Sinop would be the best two out of the tech tree, easily. The former gets speed, concealment, and very reliable burnination; the latter gets speed, armor, comfortable gun handling, and occasionally-unreliable boomination. Not quite sure why Heinrich gets so much love and has such good numbers, frankly. Its guns are atrociously bad and Gneisenau strikes me as being the better ship of the two German options. Does everybody put that much stock in the second brace of torps per side? I honestly don't get it. --Helms