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Trophy_Wench

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About Trophy_Wench

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  1. That's a fair question. The answer is probably yeah why not, according to the devs! I agree if you were to use small caliber guns at high tier then yeah some "Sekret Dokuments" for shells with... 1/4 HE pen (?) would probably have to come in just to make it viable. You can also go the SAP route as well, but that'd be an awkward transition from guns that likely wouldn't fire such rounds.
  2. I haven't been sooper motivated to write lately, especially as I have promised to follow up with my Spanish Cruiser dissertation with a CA branch but alas, that'll have to wait. Because as of today, I got a BIG motivator: Now I'm not going to regail you with the details as many of you have already seen it (after all, if you actually read the forums you probably read the devblog too) but if not, go read it and weep. So having said that, what do I, the idiot who keeps making these theorycraft posts about such a 2nd DD line think of this? In truth: I'm conflicted. On the one hand the tiers V-VIII are... actually not bad. Still copypasta mind you (and I'll explain that in greater detail in a moment) but overall these are real steel ships that were really built and really served, though in Split's case, it wasn't completed to it's original design. But tiers IX and X OTOH, are... sus. Granted these tiers were always going to be a yuuuge challenge even for WeeGee to find suitable, well, anything but not impossible but instead they reverted to using what can only be described as a British Capitani Romani- class style ship that maybe, kinda, could've been built and then possibly sold to Greece guys I totally explain it all in my fanfic novel! Guys?... And then at tier X we have... a Polish Mogador? Because reasons? It should come as no surprise for longtime readers that I was/ am very disappointed in the recent announcement of the PanAm cruiser line as well for the same reason; that these were minimal effort, copypasta lines designed to maximize use of existing assets and minimize lead-in time for development. This Pan European DD line by extension appears to pretty much be the same thing. "But Trophy!" you say, "We've never had an S-class DD or Split for that matter in game or this British flotilla leader.. thing they can't show yet so clearly they put more thought into this than the Pan American line!!!" No, no they didn't. Pretty much everything presented here except for the tier IX is made up of reused assets, which is likely the reason they can show us this content at such an early stage in the first place! I actually have a personal theory about why they're doing this: you see, with the loss of Lesta (and the inevitable brain-drain that had caused as the employees there either didn't leave/ couldn't escape Russia) means that much smaller, more dispersed teams in satellite offices now have to pick up the slack for new content development (we're talking the offices in places like Austin and Prague) and because WeeGee is likely also trying to recoup losses of that capital they need content to entice the playerbase with, and they need it quickly, even while they're trying to get their house in order. The end result is stuff like this: So what then, about European destroyers? What would I do differently? Well lets theorycraft that shall we? The first thing I'm going to do is to simply try and improve the line as is. It is important to remember that the official line is VERY WIP, so my suggestions might not make any sense in the near future, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Also, in order to maintain continuity with the line as is, we'll skip the low tier stuff and start from tier V. Seriously if you want to see my thoughts on low tier ships, go read my Three Part Series and check them out. So we start off at tier V and are presented with Muavenet, a Turkish I-class DD and a very sensible start in all honesty. Keeping in mind that this sub branch is going to be more gun focused, a downtiered I-class with one less TT launcher is a perfectly cromulent place to start. Can we do better though? Possibly, as this line is essentially trying to be the DL line for Europe, something based on Ambuscade or Scott could work, despite doubling the torpedo armament. The Portuguese Douro- class would arguably be the best representative: Next up at tier VI is Norway's time to shine with Stord, and S-Class DD. Nice to finally get some of the WEP destroyers into the game, but I have no doubt this was in fact a reused asset. (Commonwealth/ Dutch DDs anyone?) Regardless, this is again, a perfectly acceptable option to have at tier VI but I think we can find something a bit more interesting. Since this line is looking to have some larger caliber guns than the main "Swedish" line, fitting of their role as DLs we could offer up Yugoslavia's first DL, the Dubrovnik: Armed with 4x1 140mm guns and 2x3 TT of the 21" variety this could be a really good step up, but progression from here to tier VII would be awkard due to the lack of any other ships armed with such guns. Instead we'll try and maintain some of the British flavor and go with one of my favorites, the Vasilefs Georgios I -class: These fascinating ships combined the hull of an H-class DD with German 12.8cm SK C/34 guns, same as on the Z1 and still keeping the same torpedo armament as above with Stord. At tier VII, the sensible, safe bet: Grom. Lead ship of her class and Błyskawicas sister, if you're going for gun power it's the most straightforward option you can have at this tier and honestly not a bad pick overall. But safe is boring, so lets spice things up a bit and throw in the Alp Arslan-class from Turkey: Essentially just a Lightening but with half of it's TTs taken away, it should be a good fit to drop down to tier VII. Alternatively, we could go with something really left field: This is Bulgarian DD Georgi Dimitrov, an Ognevoi-class DD that Bulgaria acquired after WWII and was it's second, and last destroyer ever. Making up in caliber what we lack in barrels, we have the same 2x2 130mm guns that the Soviet tier VIII gets and still the same torpedo count as Grom, 2x3. With this ship, we're still able to maintain that heavier gun progression from tier VI as we make our way up to VIII with: This is Split as she was originally meant to be completed, with 5x1 140mm guns and still 2x3 TTs, it would have been an impressive ship. But after getting passed around during WWII Yugoslavia eventually did complete it but was rebuilt with American guns and equipment turning it into... I guess you could say a worse Velos? By choosing this ship however, WG sort of painted themselves into a corner. There were no ships planned by anyone (believe me when I say I looked, oh boy have I looked) with guns larger than 5", especially after WWII. This means the only option is the alt-reality nonsense ships that they have subsequently come up with. So, is there something better than this? Why, yes yes there is. But to do so we'd have to abandon our large caliber ships. First off we could just have Split in her 1958 form with the 4x1 5"/38s: Unfortunately, this too is going to paint us into a corner later on so instead lets see if we can continue from Grom, and that could potentially present us with two options: The first option is that we simply bump Grom up to tier VIII or it's follow on Huragan series ships which weren't built but were, again just follow on ships with heavier AA and other minor improvements. The other option would be another Norwegian, this time the Cr-class ship Trondheim: At first glance this doesn't look much different than the earlier S-class ships but the key is that in choosing this, we are abandoning large caliber gunboats for small caliber ones. This ship, while only have 1x4 TT launcher does get 4x1 4.5" guns of Daring fame and can now fire at up to 24 rounds per minute! This now changes up to perspective of our high tier ships from big alpha, to dakka dakka. Tiers IX and X would either have to once again be made up, kept as they are currently or abandoned in favor of our dakka botes. However, at least at tier IX we could introduce yet another Fletcher from Turkey or West Germany, making them sidegrades to Velos, with all other stats being the same. So to present a more realistic dakka alternative, here's me just cribbing my own words from a year ago: Tier IX: Błyskawica 50' Here it is, the ultimate evolution of Błyskawica. Refitted with an all new Soviet armament consisting of... either 8 or 4 100mm B-34 guns. This weapon is already in game as secondary armaments to a few Soviet cruisers and aside from a slightly smaller shell (duh) and higher velocity is more or less the same as the 4" guns mentioned above. What isn't clear though is the mounting. One source says that they had 4 guns in singe mounts of standard design of the time. They were improved with full electric drives and loaders and in theory allowed for ROFs that were similar to the aforementioned 4" British mounts (around 20 RPM) again, I'm not 100% clear on the capabilities of these mounts. However, if it did in fact have 8 guns, then it sound like the Poles or Russians or whoever just rebarreled the British MkXIX mounts in which case... 20RPM it is? In addition she was also given much more modern Soviet AA guns, a single quintuple TT launcher, radars and sonars. Seriously, if someone has some images or more definitive information about it's loadout post 1950 I'd be grateful! Nonetheless, I think that this might just be crazy enough to work at tier IX, if given 8 guns. So with that established, what exactly is the tier X? Well as you can see, this line had led me to small caliber guns equipping high tier destroyers, Harugumo style. Unfortunately, the ships that I found that were equipped with such weapons were predominately frigates, which lacked the high speed, torpedo armament and even enough guns and displacement to be effective at tier X, so that was a non-starter. Surely someone had to produce a proper destroyer with 100mm or similar guns in Europe at this time?!?! And as it turned out someone did, from a most unlikely source... West Germany: Tier X: Hamburg-class This ship is downright wacky. I still can't believe it existed. Main guns 4x1 100mm Mle 1953 with a rate of fire of up to 60 rounds per minute! A one second reload. Torpedoes are even wackier. 5 single 21" tubes, 3 in the bow and 2 in the stern wait, wha? Yes, in the bow. Granted they were later sealed up when the ships were converted to DDGs in the 70's but still, this ship is all kinds of insane and I love it. The only problem with this ship, other than whether or not you consider West Germany to be lumped into the main German line or stand as it's own nation is is this too radical? After all we are talking about ships that, while designed and built in the 50's weren't commissioned until the 60's! How advanced is too advanced? Personally, I think it's kind of a moot point at this point because, well, what's the alternative? Sadly, as much as I'd like to believe our words mean something to this company, I know all too well that the best we can do is keep hope alive that we get to see some of our favorite ships show up in one form or another, all the while wondering what fight have been...
  3. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 391 - European Destroyers - Closed Testing

    They really don't though. It's the same hand-wavy, if-then fanfic justification as the LATAM ships for the IX and X designs. I had postulated plenty of designs that, actually seem to fit in quite well with what they are going for ( minus the increase in caliber) but instead they seem fit to just try and imagineer their way into coming up with a DL line that looks outwardly similar to the French and Italians,.just gimmicked up differently. I'll admit this line is as egregiously lazy as the LATAM line, but it's still not good.
  4. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 388 - Pan-American Cruisers - Closed testing

    Hear hear @Fr05ty!
  5. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 388 - Pan-American Cruisers - Closed testing

    Gods I hope so
  6. Trophy_Wench

    Dev Blog : Pan-American Cruisers

    This whole line just makes me sad
  7. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 388 - Pan-American Cruisers - Closed testing

    What in the cinnamon toast f@$& is this? All the work that people like @Fr05ty @talleyrand, @COLDOWN and so many others to carefully craft plausible CL lines for this tree and it got pooped on by lazy kitbashing and likely only held together by some singular gimmick a la the Pan Asian line. Son, I am disappoint.
  8. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 373 - New Ships — Closed Testing 0.11.10

    Poop, you're right! I totally forgot about both of those ships already. Very well, I am a man of my word.
  9. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 373 - New Ships — Closed Testing 0.11.10

    Care to make a friendly wager on that? I say Xmas, you say LNY?
  10. Trophy_Wench

    DevBlog 373 - New Ships — Closed Testing 0.11.10

    Calling it right now, Ning Hai and the Sun Yat Sen will be dockyard ships.
  11. Not to get too off topic here, but Portugal would have very limited influence on any amalgamated "Iberian", let alone the Pan-EU line beyond the Alfonso de Alburquerque-class sloops (which are tier I) and the Douro-class destroyers at roughly tier V. There were also some interesting subs as well, which would be the only ships that have any potential for higher tiering. Unfortunately @black_hull4, the Rainha Dona Amélia/República is not really suitable for this game as she was slow, tiny and carried mixed main armament. Having said that, I do know that there was a naval expansion program initiated by Portugal during the interbellum that was to include new submarines, ocean going destroyers and escorts as well as a light cruiser of some sort. However, I haven't done much research into it in a long time and don't know if any drawings of such CLs existed or what they were based on (likely either British or Italian designs though).
  12. So, a funny thing happened on the way to finishing up my last dissertation on Pan-European destroyers when this knowledge bomb dropped: ... Yeaaaaah. In truth I'm just going to wait until they actually unveil the line to comment on them as there is A LOT to unpack there. So until then, lets theorycraft the Spanish Cruiser line! Spain is a very unique nation to bring to WoWs and one that I have been excited for for a very long time. As the last of the so called "Major Minor" nations of Europe left, its entirely fitting and appropriate that they be given their own tech tree rather than be lumped into Pan-Europe since, as it turns out, there is a pretty substantial amount of paper ships to sift through that can help to flesh out their tree. Way more than the Dutch or, honestly the rest of the minor European navies for that matter. When it comes to cruisers specifically, what can we expect? Whelp, IMO these ships will play like a mix between British and Italian cruisers, unsurprisingly to some. Low to mid tier ships will straight up use British hulls and guns (albeit modified) while higher tier ships will have a mix of Italian and indigenously developed hulls. German and Italian AA weapons will be predominant throughout and somewhat extensive to boot. Almost in similar vein to Dutch cruisers. Also like the Dutch and Italians, spotter planes will be available at the mid-tiers to extend the range of the guns, but also like the Italians, these ships won't have much in the way of vision control. I don't foresee Hydro or Radar being offered on them but would (much like Canarias) have a speed boost. Coupled with either an Italian or British (or both!) smoke and a "why the hell not" DFAA, Spanish cruisers will be less about utility and more about simply doing damage. On top of all this, there are two other gameplay factors to consider when crafting this line. First, the line would in true British form stick to improved AP only. Given that Canarias is already offering this style of gameplay somewhat, I think an entire line of this would offer some interesting options. This leads us to factor two: burst fire mode. Many of you may recall that Canarias was initially tested with this concept only to have it removed (though in fairness, her "alt-firing mode" also significantly changed the performance of her shells which was dumb.) but did end up reappearing in the brand new DD-cum-tiny CL Alvaro de Bazan. It's clear that WeeGee wants to make burst fire a "thing" for Spain at least to try and differentiate it a little more than simply being a copypasta line. So keeping all that in mind, lets take a look at what Spain could offer. Tier I: Pizarro-class Essentially a sloop broadly similar to the Black Swan-class in Britain, these ships actually went on to have fairly long and successful careers in the Armada both as escorts and then later refitted as light ASW frigates. In game, expect her to either pack 3x1 4" Vickers guns, or 3x1 4.1" German guns and be otherwise completely forgettable. Moving on... Tier II: Reina Regente protected cruiser This ship was actually laid down prior to the Spanish American war (!) but due to the war, the ensuing financial crisis and design changes didn't get launched until 1906 (!!) and wasn't commissioned until 1910!!! Essentially making her obsolete as soon as she entered service. Capable of not quite 20kts, she is armed with 15cm guns in both broadside casemate mounts and in twin turrets fore and aft. A total of 10 guns with a healthy 7 gun broadside. While impressive for her tier, her middling speed, slow rate of fire and lack of torpedoes would allow her to balance out any raw damage output she may posses. Tier III: Navarra light cruiser This ship is the ex Reina Victoria Eugenia, essentially a modified version of the Birmingham-class CLs (akin to the Weymouth in game for those keeping score at home.) And I know what you're thinking, "why not put this ship at tier II if it's just a Weymouth or at least her original version?" Truth be told, I have waffled with this decision quite a lot but decided on this arrangement for two reasons. One, the RVE didn't really see any major upgrades... like, at all until she was reconstructed into Navarra in 1937. this inherently limits her potential. Reason number two: torpedoes. Creating a cohesive line of ships for Spain by simply putting ships into the same tier as their parent designs (which is easy since said ships are all already in game with the British) ends up creating weird gaps and other problems further up the line. And given how many of Spain's cruisers were heavily modified/rebuilt I want to celebrate that uniqueness so as to rely less on the copypasta. So what does that have to do with torps then? Well, this line up allows TTs to show up later in the line but remain a consistent feature of higher tier ships while down here at tiers II and III we are all gun. I have also seen some theorycrafters try and shoehorn this ship up at tier IV but would have to imply that her AA is way better than it actually is and would have to be very heavily massaged to have capabilities to match at that MM spread. Remember, still a tier II hull after all. As for Navarra herself, she carries 6x1 6" guns, same as on the old RVE but now all on the centerline. Being rebuilt as something of an AA cruiser, she has a secondary battery of 4x1 88mm DP guns (the same ones as on older German BBs) and some Italian HMGs for close in defense, later upgraded to 2cm Flak. Her top speed is still a rather mediocre 25kts and again, she lost the TTs in the conversion. Nonetheless, I think that this ship does an outstanding job of forming the basis of the rest of the CL's "flavour" if you will. Tier IV: Blas de Lezo (or is it Méndez Núñes?) These ships were... well they were just C-class cruisers. With an extra gun, but the guns are not all on the centerline so... yeah. Why is this tier IV? Well two reasons. One, torpedoes! 4x3 launchers baby, so any shortcomings she has in gun firepower she gets to (potentially) make up here! Reason number two is this: This is one of the modernization proposals for the surviving sister ship before it was decided to turn that into an AA cruiser. The ship would now have 3x2 6" guns on the centerline, a floatplane maybe and improved AAA but lose 1/2 of it's torpedoes it appears. I think WeeGee could be enticed to mess around with this one a bit since the Blas can essentially become a blank slate. As for her sister, Méndez Núñes in her final form would likely make for a great tier V premium: (Main armament here is 8x1 4.7" DP guns) Tier V: Príncipe Alfonso- class These ships are essentially just modified E-class ships, but with 8 guns to the Emerald's 7. The guns are arranged weirdly though, with 3 twin turrets in the A-Q-X positions and single mounts superfiring in the B-Y positions. Torpedo armament is still awesome with 4x3 launchers though these were gradually removed as the years and refits went on. (More on that later) Overall, a pretty cromulent tier V ship. As we come up on tier VI, we can start to consider a split between heavy and light cruisers. While it obviously would have made more sense to have Canarias show up at this point to kick such a line off, there are still plenty of paper design options that can fit at tier VI regardless (Canarias' sister ship Belares notwithstanding, as she didn't survive the war). However I plan to cover these ships in a separate thread. As my line is going to end with CAs anyway, having an entirely separate line would naturally be redundant even if you were to do heavy --> heavy-er cruisers, at which point you could have a French or Soviet style cruiser split at tier VIII. For now though, back to the ships. Tier VI: Miguel de Cervantes The ultimate development of the previous Alfonso-class ships. This ship was rebuilt in the 1940s to move her guns around to a more usable A-B-X-Y configuration as seen above, much heavier AAA, again the floatplane and again taking away half of her TTs. This ship would essentially become analogous to a Leander in most respects and should provide a good step up from her tier V sister. This also represents the last real steel ship in the line, everything from here on out is paper. Tier VII: SECN Project 124 This ship was designed just before the Civil War and is for all intents and purposes a Spanish Eintracht. 10 6" guns as shown above along with 3x2 90mm guns for long range AA defense (yes, those 90mm guns) plus associated German and Italian small caliber stuff and 2x3 TTs. All in all a pretty well stacked tier VII CL and one that also begins to transition to more Italian design influences. Speaking of which... Tier VIII: Ansaldo Designs VIII- 203 / XII- 152 So here at tier VIII we get a bit of a choice; a light (ish) cruiser, a heavy cruiser, or both! As you can see these ships were essentially just variations of the same base hull design (a third version IX- 203 is also lumped in with them but more on that one later). Obviously one had 6" guns in 4x3 turrets and the other 8" guns in 4x2s. Everything else, from the TT armament (2x4s) to the general AAA compliment is mostly the same. So lets get crazy... and Mogami-ify them together! With the upgraded gun option being the 8-inchers! "But Trophy!!!" I hear you cry, "that's such a downgrade over 12 6" guns especially if they're only shooting AP!" And yes, I would agree why would you want to combine these ships just to get less, marginally larger guns? Well, this is where the alt-firing mode comes back into play! (You thought I forgot about that didn't you?) Imagine an AP only Mainz and an AP only Hipper that can burst fire combined into one ship, and that is we could potentially have here. Tier IX: Ansaldo design IX- 203 This ship for all intents and purposes is the tier VIII Amalfi in the Italian tech line. And as you can see it's still the same general hull from tier VIII just with 3x3 guns now. So why move it up? Because burst-fire. Oh and just for good measure, give it a heal too. Tier X: SECN Project 138-A (Note the name Numancia was given by the artist.) Arguably the most sensible of Spain's vaunted "Super Washington" heavy cruiser designs, this 17 and a half thousand tonne design features 4x3 8" guns, 2x4 TTs and a fairly substantial AA capability to include 6x2 90mm guns, 75mm guns (for some reason) plus numerous smaller 37mm and 2cm mounts. Oh and it can somehow go 37kts. With the aforementioned burst-fire capability as well, this should make for a pretty capable ship in it's own right, even if 12 8" guns at tier X isn't exactly Earth shattering anymore. Before I wrap this up, there is one other important trait almost all of these ships have that I should mention; every ship from tier III on up gets depth charges. So there you have it, my take on what the Spanish cruiser branch could look like! As I mentioned previously, I will likely follow up with a supplemental Heavy Cruiser sub-branch at some point, so stay tuned!
  13. Trophy_Wench

    Farewell my friends (PVE Thread)

    Take it easy @AdmiralThunder.
  14. When? When they finally decide to differentiate between 'heavy' and 'light' cruisers and provide us with the associated captain skill trees or each class
  15. Whelp, it didn't take long for the DL portion of my line to get blown up. Tromp is coming into the game. Surprised that she'll be a tier X. Not surprised they gave her airstrikes.
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