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Trophy_Wench

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  1. It is a major concern. I suppose an argument could be made to have the ship be put into a Friesland-esque situation where you can have a tech line version for Europe, and a sidegraded, premium version for regular Germany. I've actually given this a lot of thought since doing my write-ups, and have come to the conclusion that I don't want that. I already don't like the "Schrodinger's destroyer" situation with the Friesland, which exists simply due to WeeGees nearsightedness in terms of content development. Were that the case for Hamburg, I say just make the damn thing German to begin with. But you better have a compelling replacement lined up for Europe!
  2. Hello, and welcome to the 3rd and final installment of my attempts to create a 2nd line of destroyers for Pan Europe. Welcome to: "The Russian Line". Now I have to confess, in all my time and efforts trying to come up with amalgamated European destroyer lines, I had generally disregarded the Russian/ Soviet boats as little more than novelties. Obscure ships for obscure navies that, while interesting couldn't possibly be used as part of the greater techline. Well, I'm here to say that I was mistaken, and instead may have just been the key needed to unlock this alternative line. So without further adieu, lets dive in! Tier III: Vambola We start at tier III once again, coming off the Tatra to this, an Orfey-class destroyer that was, :ahem: acquired by the then brand new Estonian navy. The Orfey-class are broadly similar to the Derzky-class that we have already at tier III, however these are slightly larger, with 3x3 TTs instead of 5x2 and carrying an extra gun. In addition to this ship, Estonia also managed to get their hands on an Izyaslav-class as well, naming it the Lennuk. Both ships served throughout the 20s and then were sold to the Peruvian navy of all places in the 1930s! I will not be using the Lennuk for our tier IV however, and instead will use something a little different: Tier IV: Zheleznyakov This was Bulgaria's first destroyer, given to them in 1947 for what I can only guess was training and familiarization purposes before it was given back to the Soviets just two years later. This ship was a Fidonisy-class which was essentially the ultimate development of the Derzky. In addition to being larger ships overall, they carried a 4th 4" gun and 4x3 TT launchers! Most of the ships were rebuilt thought the interbellum as well as WWII where the received constant upgrades to their AA suite. While Lennuk might have greater... uh right? I guess you could say to be the tier IV, both of these ships are new to the game despite their iterative designs and they scale very well with one another so I give Zheleznyakov the nod here. Tier V: Wicher-class Yup, this again. But to be honest, I'm basing this more on nation and gun caliber size than anything as 130mm will gel nicely with the other upcoming mid-tier selections. Tobefaaaaaair, we could stick a number of different options here from the previous 2 acts and they might all work for this line. Tier VI: Vasilefs Georgios I-class Same as before. That being said, as I introduce the tier VII ship, consider this ship's armament (4 x 1 - 128/42 SK C/34, 4 x 1 - 37/80 SK C/30, 2 x 4 - 12.7/62, 2 x 4 - 533 TT) versus what what comes next. Tier VII: Georgi Dimitrov This was Bulgaria's 2nd, and last destroyer, an Ognevoy-class. Now the eagle-eyed among you might notice that it's TTs are a bit light compared to what we have ingame, and you'd be right, this only has 2x3s, not the 2x5s the tier VIII Soviet Ognevoy gets. However, what you see above is the historical loadout, and only the direct follow on Skoryy-class got the quintuple launchers. I have always felt that the Ognevoy was overtiered in this game, and should be knocked down to tier VII, branching off the Gnevny thereby making room for the bigger Skoryy, but I digress. Anyway, despite the 40% reduction in torpedo tubes, it is otherwise the same ship as it's tier VIII counterpart but this does beg the question; based on torpedo power alone, going to 6 tubes, to 8 tubes and then back to 6. Would this necessitate the VGI taking the tier VII slot and the Dimitrov moving down to VI as some have suggested? Obviously I don't think so but now consider our choices for tier VIII and come to your own conclusions... Tier VIII: Grom-class / Wicher II / Oslo-class It would seem we're a bit spoiled for choice here, but in reality there is only one choice for me. For starters, this now becomes the point in the line where the tier X destroyer flavour lets call it, is going to stat to manifest itself so right away we can disregard the Wicher II as it was just a standard Skoryy-class given to Poland. However, I do think she would make a great premium someday, despite meaning we'd have 2 premium Skoryys in game. So what about Oslo? These ships were C-class vessels (Cr subgroup to be specific) handed over to Norway before even being completed since the war had ended by the time the ships were launched. Main armament consisted of the 4.5" gun in 4 single mounts. These mounts were the Mk.V which gave full power traverse and elevation, power assisted loading and fully automated gun directors for true DP capability. In other words, these are Daring guns at tier VIII. To compensate for all the extra weight of this equipment, they were only fitted with a single quad TT launcher though. This ship then, for me is the correct choice at tier VIII. A ship that trades torpedo power for high RPM/ DPM, small caliber guns. Okay, but where does this leave Grom? Well, her as completed design probably wouldn't make as much sense here for this line as opposed to the others but Błyskawica specifically, or at least the 1942 refit of her might make the cut: By this time, she was completely refitted with 8x2 4" DP guns, a single quad TT launcher, 3" DP gun, same as Orkan, and much improved AA. Sounds good right? Well, not quite. For you see, Błyskawica was upgraded one more time in her service life and I believe, with some tweaks can work as our tier IX ship instead! For what it's worth the wartime conversion version of her always felt like a good sidegrade option to the Błyskawica we already have at tier VII. And who knows? Maybe we will get that ship someday. Tier IX: Błyskawica 50' Here it is, the ultimate evolution of Błyskawica. Refitted with an all new Soviet armament consisting of... either 8 or 4 100mm B-34 guns. This weapon is already in game as secondary armaments to a few Soviet cruisers and aside from a slightly smaller shell (duh) and higher velocity is more or less the same as the 4" guns mentioned above. What isn't clear though is the mounting. One source says that they had 4 guns in singe mounts of standard design of the time. They were improved with full electric drives and loaders and in theory allowed for ROFs that were similar to the aforementioned 4" British mounts (around 20 RPM) again, I'm not 100% clear on the capabilities of these mounts. However, if it did in fact have 8 guns, then it sound like the Poles or Russians or whoever just rebarreled the British MkXIX mounts in which case... 20RPM it is? In addition she was also given much more modern Soviet AA guns, a single quintuple TT launcher, radars and sonars. Seriously, if someone has some images or more definitive information about it's loadout post 1950 I'd be grateful! Nonetheless, I think that this might just be crazy enough to work at tier IX, if given 8 guns. So with that established, what exactly is the tier X? Well as you can see, this line had led me to small caliber guns equipping high tier destroyers, Harugumo style. Unfortunately, the ships that I found that were equipped with such weapons were predominately frigates, which lacked the high speed, torpedo armament and even enough guns and displacement to be effective at tier X, so that was a non-starter. Surely someone had to produce a proper destroyer with 100mm or similar guns in Europe at this time?!?! And as it turned out someone did, from a most unlikely source... West Germany: Tier X: Hamburg-class This ship is downright wacky. I still can't believe it existed. Main guns 4x1 100mm Mle 1953 with a rate of fire of up to 60 rounds per minute! A one second reload. Torpedoes are even wackier. 5 single 21" tubes, 3 in the bow and 2 in the stern wait, wha? Yes, in the bow. Granted they were later sealed up when the ships were converted to DDGs in the 70's but still, this ship is all kinds of insane and I love it. The only problem with this ship, other than whether or not you consider West Germany to be lumped into the main German line or stand as it's own nation is is this too radical? After all we are talking about ships that, while designed and built in the 50's weren't commissioned until the 60's! How advanced is too advanced? Personally, I think it's kind of a moot point at this point because, well, what's the alternative? So there you have it, it only took 3 whole posts but here we are, the final complete alternative DD line for Pan Europe. What a long strange trip it's been. As always, let me know what you think, and thanks for sticking with me!
  3. Welcome everyone, to part 2. This line up is what call the "Continuation Line". Built around the notion of progressing from A-H ships to Yugoslav vessels and fleshing out the gaps with similar types. We'll be exploring some new ships in this one compared to the "120 Line". So lets start off with our old friend at tier III: This was a planned follow on to the Tatra-class and a fairly sensible one at that. Built for longer range ocean going capability, she would be fitted with 3x1 4.7" Skoda guns and 2x2 21" TT. As this line will branch off Tatra, expect it to fight fairly similarly. Tier IV: Beograd-class These ships were French designed and were the standard Yugoslav destroyers backing up the bigger Dubrovnik Destroyer Leader. While they are broadly similar to the extant Bourrasque including the 2x3 550mm TTs, she only caries 4.7" Skoda guns instead of the larger, French 5.1" or 130mm. Speaking of which... Tier V: Wicher-class Nono! No not that one... There we go. This was Poland's first class of modern destroyers, also largely based on the Bourrasque-class, and will all the same armament to boot. What makes these ships stand out, and by extension move up a tier is the fact that they were planned to be modified to use the same guns and torpedoes as on the Grom- class. Unfortunately, the sudden arrival of the Germans put a stop to those plans. If I'm going to be completely honest, both these and the preceding Beograds are similar enough that you could easily have them swap positions without too much fuss, but for now this is the line up I'll have them in. Tier VI: Vasilefs Georgios I -class Similar to my previous line, these unusual Greek ships get the nod at tier VI. Moving on. Tier VII: Split (as completed) This ship begins the transition to predominately American armaments despite the hull being fully Yugoslav. Armed with 4x1 good ol' 5"/38s and 1x5 TT (and a generous helping of ASW equipment) she was a big, impressive destroyer at the time but not even having the full firepower of say, a Sims at this tier. She'd also be slow at 32kts. Tier VIII: Thyella Yup, a Fletcher. But more specifically, one that was fitted out more similar to Kidd, which is why it's down here. All other MDAP Fletchers seemed to have only 4 guns rather than the 5 and in some cases even less torpedoes! So Thyella does stand out as one of the only 5-gun variants handed over; it also doesn't hurt that she's still around as a museum ship today. And unfortunately this is the point where, once again, the line collapses. While Allen M. Sumner and Gearing-class ships were also given to European navies (namely Greece, Turkey and Spain) under MDAP, by the time they received them it was the 1970s and they had all been updated to FRAM II standard, making them wholly inappropriate to incorporate into the game. To illustrate what I mean, here's an image of a surviving FRAM II Gearing, the USS Joseph P Kennedy: In short, yeah no. So at this point you might be wondering if I can even come up with anything for tiers IX and X? Well fear not! For in part 3, I'll be unveiling an honest to goodness, European DD line that can go to tier X, no Swedes needed! Stay tuned!
  4. But yes to answer your question, the US did provide several destroyers to NATO navies under the MDAP program which I'll get into in my 2nd line. Sadly, despite my repeated attempts to uncover any information regarding the British trying to give/sell/ transfer destroyers more advanced than the M-class to European nations it didn't seem to be the case. That's a fair question mofton. In general I usually don't go into "themes" or "gimmicks" for the lines I theorycraft since it's completely at the whim of Lesta and they'll just make the ship fit the gimmick rather than the other way round. That being said, speaking in broad terms I do foresee these 3 lines having some similar characteristics. Mainly this line (whichever one) would be more generalist, or more balanced in terms of armament but leaning more into guns the further up you go given the lower amount of TT. Speaking of torpedoes, since the torpedoes are one of the gimmicks of this tree, I can foresee (especially since we're using ships that have a variety of foreign torpedoes) them having some of the same characteristics such as low detectability, better than average reload but with this line you can opt for greater dame in exchange for lower speed/ range, take your pick. Perhaps they also drop the heal for hydro or even radar a la Smaland or Orkan, so maybe non-smoking is another universal gimmick as well? Stay tuned for Part 2, it will be coming out soon!
  5. Now that the lines have been completed, if you want to skip to the end or just TLDR; click here! After many months of quieted rumors, and 'will they/ won't they' speculation, Spain is finally coming into the game with it's own techtree! Which of course means I have to start all over again in coming up with an alternative Pan-European DD line... again! ... whelp, no time like the present I suppose. So, since my 2nd attempt can now be thrown out the window this makes the search for suitable top tier ships all the more difficult. Not to say that there aren't any at all, and as you'll see there are but coming up with cohesive lines to use them, has proven... difficult. On top of that, even with the leftover nations, there is so much variety that separating the wheat from the chaff so to speak has largely become moot and so instead of getting one line, you'll get three! (sort of.) This is going to be a multi-parter, so strap yourself in because this barrel ain't scrapped out yet! The "120 line" The first line up of ships will be based around the use of 4.7" or 120mm guns throughout the line, aside from low tiers of course. This line up will have some unique ships along with probably the most amount of British among my 3 proposed lines so without further nonsense, lets get going: Tier II: Aetos-class Yup, this again. No need to beat this horse a 3rd time so moving on swiftly we have... Tier III: Sleipner-class Again, no change here. However this whole line could start at tier III with the Austro Hungarian 1000ton design shown here: and yes those would be 120mm guns. This won't be the last you see of this ship as I will also use this in my 2nd line. Tier IV: Ålesund-class Once again, no surprises here. Pretty much the same as my previous line however, in this particular line we can also consider the Yugoslav Beograd-class, essentially a L' Adroit-class but using Skoda 120mm guns: Again, expect to see this ship in the future. Tier V: Douro-class / Regele Ferdinand-class / Kocatepe-class A Portuguese, a Romanian and a Turk... something, something destroyer? Anyhoo, as you can see we're a bit spoiled for choice at this tier, and really it would be just a matter of balancing though the RF does have 5 guns to the others 4, despite all three of these ships have the same 2x3 21" TT loadout. Tier VI: Hydra-class / Demirhisar-class, Gayret- class This time, we have a choice between a Greek ship, built in Italy or a series of Turkish ships built in Britain. The Demirhisar is functionally identical to the I-class ships we have in game already, but the Gayret was a slightly different O-class vessel, sent over since one of Turkey's ships was lost in action while it was pressed into British service. Contrasting to the Greek ship, the Hydras were slightly improved, faster versions of the preceding Kocatepe-class but still kept the same armament. Another potential alternative here could also be Regele Ferdinand with her higher speed and consistently improved AA. Tier VII: Kotor-class Now I know what you're thinking, "Where's the Grom?" Well, truth be told I'm saving that one for the moment, trust me it'll all make sense. In the mean time, these old Yugoslav ex-W-class ships get the nod at VII. Tier VIII: Grom (Huragan) / Alp Arslan-class The improved Grom follow ups should now make a showing here. Those of you who may remember in my previous attempts I had waffled on whether to uptier the Grom or not but I have decided that in this specific case for this potential line, it would work better here, especially since they could be given theoretical refits. On the other hand we have the Alp Arslans, which were ex-M-class ships, more or less the same as the Lightning and Orkan already in the game. Tiers IX and X: Seriously. Outside of a possible Swedish tier X that @Kingpin61 had posted some time ago which you can read about here, there's really nowhere else to go with this and even using the aforementioned Swede, a suitable tier IX is completely lacking. Perhaps someone out there can come up with an option here and by all means do try! But this will otherwise complete the first of our 3 lines. Stay tuned for part 2!
  6. Nice to see someone attempt a full line of A-H BBs. This KuKaboo certainly approves! That said, I have some concerns. For starters, lower caliber is an understatement. Those 35cm guns are exactly the same as on Mackensen/ PEF so I'd say that the midtiers are overtired. As for the low tiers... this, might be another Italy situation where the tier III is just skipped. Having said that, an alternative could be a planned all-big-gun design for the Radetzky-class. Having said all that, and speaking of Italy, any full A-H line would likely have to going the way of the Italians, German BCs and American Super Standards wherein those high tier ships will be heavily "modernized" from the designs posted. In fact, its possible that were Lesta to put in your tier X suggestion, they'd give it the Andrea Doria treatment and eliminate the middle turret to add more superstructure/AA/ whatever.
  7. Trophy_Wench

    Welcome to WoWS, Spain!

    Cruisers or DDs would be most likely, as they have enough material to implement the easiest.
  8. Trophy_Wench

    Anniversary stream announcements, guess the ship

    They have enough material for Cruisers, DDs, SS', up to tier VIII in BBs and, at least according to @Kingpin61, a full line of light CVs as well. In terms of both actual ships built and paper designs are the largest and most significant minor Navy left to implement. Anything else would be just amalgamated trees (i.e. LATAM, Commonwealth, more Pan-Europe)
  9. Trophy_Wench

    Anniversary stream announcements, guess the ship

    Sooper jazzed to see Spain come into the game on its own! Guess I'll have to redo my Pan-EU DD line... again.
  10. Trophy_Wench

    Real Ships Only?

    I already kind of do that now. If I don't find the ships (real or not) personally/historically interesting then I usually don't bother keeping it or grinding to it. There are entire branches that I currently ignore simply because I don't have any personal interest in them, such as Japanese DDs, or don't finish a line because the top tiers don't interest me from a historical perspective, such as Italian CAs.
  11. Trophy_Wench

    Best looking modern warship?

    Independence-class get my vote over the flattops. They're crappy ships, but there's no denying that a trimaran isn't striking.
  12. I tend to agree with you on this @Lert, this looks good to be true. Just the fact that whoever came up with this decided " hey! Let's strap two CAs worth of firepower on either side of this thing!" calls it's viability into question for me. But man... I was ready to believe.
  13. Trophy_Wench

    Pan-American Destroyer Line

    Which makes it all the more disappointing that they started at tier V instead of II, with truly unique ships. But this is not the place for that conversation
  14. Trophy_Wench

    French Torpilleur Line

    Realistically torpedoes would, or rather, should behave very similarly to their Contre-Torpilleurs counterparts. But @lolpip is correct that they would have same or fewer tubes than their like-tiered counterparts. For instance: The above mentioned Le Hardi prelim design seen above appears to have in all likelihood have 2x3 tubes, same as Guepard. Were we to put the Desaix in as I had suggested, she would also be 2x3 along the centerline, versus the Vauquelin having 7 tubes, despite 4 of them being on the wings. The Le Hardis proper OTOH, would have that exact arrangement for a total of 7 tubes for the tier VIII while the tier IX, owing to a revised design returns to the 2x3 arrangement. Finally you have T47 at the top. Interestingly enough, this design was initially planned to have a singe 1x4 launcher amidships but instead they revised the design as their mission was changed to air defense. Instead they get 4x3 launchers a la Clemson style though the forward tubes were supposed to be just for ASuW homing torpedoes but I would venture a guess and say they could easily throw standard AShW torps in them as well. Hopefully this gives you some basic idea of what these boats would be like. Ultimately, the line ends with what is basically a smaller Colbert.
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