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Kochira

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About Kochira

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  1. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    All that matters is Iowa is much more influential compared to the rest of the ships in the pool. the skill gap is a different issue entirely and is something that should be addressed on a ship by ship basis. Making one ship type harder to play than another is undesirable when combined with RPS balancing. RPS isn't balanced when rock is harder to use. the appropriate place to put ships that appeal to the more skilled players is the national lines. Referring back to my example, does the Iowa become less influential than the Sampson when it is mirrored? Ignore player skill, with a large enough sample size it balances out. I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. What numbers did you start with and what math did you apply to them. You are trying to find the win rate of a ship type as a whole.what you did before was find the average of the average win rate of each individual ship. You should not be excluding ships in this, because every ship is part of the sample even if it isn't representative of the whole. You add up the wins and losses of each ship so the performance of the less played ships does not skew your results. You want that. If US DDs are played more the average DD is more likely to be a US DD. You are trying to prove that DDs as a whole were over powered. You don't get there by over representing the better DDs. How are you getting the bold numbers and why did you switch to this data set rather than your last one? Its not just two, its the entire IJN DD line from tier 6 to 9. Some of the Russian DDs are missing as well. You averaged across tiers didn't you.... Can we stick to comparing apples to apples? The game play is clearly differs depending on the tier, should Shimakaze suffer through radar if Minekaze is over performing? Posting them to a public google Doc would be the best solution.
  2. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    Its simple so it's easy to follow. If I used a more realistic scenario, with all 4 ship types and the 3 tier spread, that's 12 sections of win rates that don't compare to each other. I'm not even sure where to begin devising a scenario that is both understandable and gets my point across using that many parts. When explaining things its best to start simple and work your way up. I don't entirely disagree with this, I just don't want to get into a huge debate about the possible reasons DDs may or may not be more or less influential. One thing to consider though is if the win rate range of a ship is too wide it is possible to nerf the aspects of the ship that the better players rely on while buffing the aspects that the worse player rely on. If you got my point you wouldn't say it can be used to prove CVs aren't OP. My point is win rates are not comparable across class and tier. Win rate will not answer the question "which has a larger influence CVs or DDs?" one way or the other. Your methodology is a bit flawed. By dividing the sum of the win rates by the number of different ships you assume that every ship is played the same number of times, which is untrue. What you need to do is sum the wins and losses then divide the wins by the total, to get the win rate of all ships in a type. your method results in over valuing ships with a high win rate and a low number of games. Also even back then ships were typically matched against the same tier which runs into the same problems that comparing win rates of different types of ships do today. Limit your comparison to ships of the same tier. I feel like that is a lot of work so if you want to limit it to tier 10 that's fine. Though seeing how the balance changes as the tier goes up would be interesting. Looking at the data you linked and your picture, I see some problems. First, manually counting the DDs in the range gives me 16 different ships. You might want to check that your functions are working correctly. Second do you know why the only IJN DDs in your tier range on that table are Shimakaze, Minekaze and Kamikaze R? Because then you have fewer ships to balance a new ship against. In my haste I forgot to mention that those numbers are for the tier 10 ships. You can find them on the individual ship pages like this, scroll down to "Statistics of same tier and type warships" and click the 5% button to the right. you get the average performance of the top 5% of players for each ship of the same type and tier as the ship you are looking at. Poke around and see if you can find what you want (5% isn't the only option there). the sad reality is all the stat sites suck from a user's perspective.
  3. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    Are you trying to argue that the Iowa isn't the most influential ship in that lineup? Why something is more influential than another is irrelevant in determining if win rate is a good measure of a ships influence. Then pull up the old stats that show DDs over performing. From wows-numbers, these are the ranges of the average win rate of the top 5% by type: BB 67.90 %-72.88 % DD 67.18 %-76.40 % CA/CL 69.43 %-77.41 % (Stalingrad excluded) CV 76.86 %-80.12 % so the order is CV -> CA/CL -> DD -> BB then or are you going by the low end of the range? perhaps you didn't actually look at the numbers? Of course its kind of irrelevant to my point. those players take their wins form the the less influential ship/player combinations of the same type. You see that some top DD players have a pretty high win rate, but they also have the lowest win rate on there. How do you explain that?
  4. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    Lets do a little thought experiment. lest start by building matches with Iowa, Erie and Sampson. With a completely random matchmaker Iowa will clearly have the highest win rate because the only threat she can face is another Iowa. Erie and Sampson will have very low win rates because every time they are forced to fight against an Iowa they lose. Sampson is better able to support other ships than Erie so she will have a slightly less atrocious win rate. Win rate correlates strongly with the ability to influence a match here. But in the actual game there are restriction on the kinds of matches that are made, so lets add one to ours. Iowa is clearly OP in this so we will treat it like CVs in the actual game. Every Iowa is matched against an Iowa on the opposing team. Compared to the random matchmaker Iowa's win rate drops to 50%. For every Iowa that wins, another loses after all. But another thing happens, the win rates of Erie and Sampson go up. Now that the massive influence of Iowa is balanced on both teams it is no longer affecting the win rate of the smaller ships. Sampson is better than Erie and the total win/lose ratio of the two of them combined will be 50%, the extra influence of Sampson will raise her win rate above 50%. Sampson takes extra wins from the Eries she is matched against. Win rate no longer correlates with influence. You could take it a step further and mirror Sampson and Erie as well as Iowa. In that case all ships would have a 50% win rate. Would that indicate that Erie is has the same influence on a match as an Iowa? For the good players with high win rates angle, lets look at our mirrored Iowa. The ratio of wins and losses must remain 50% so when a skilled Iowa player wins more, other Iowas win less. If the better players have a higher win rate it is because they are out playing the less skilled Iowas. If the top players' win rate is lower, then the less skilled players are doing better than if the top players have a higher win rate. Moving back to the actual game statistics you have other things you have to compensate for, a ships average win rate is one. A 53% win rate in Yueyang isn't as good as a 53% win rate in Shimakaze. The Shima is a worse ship so she has a harder time dealing with other ships. Win rate is great for comparing the performance of ships as long as they are the same type because that segment of the matchmaker is random. Once you try comparing across types it is useless and misleading.
  5. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    _Darkflame isn't a very good example, the vast majority of their games are in the Clemson, which IIRC is one of the DDs favored for seal clubbing. On a less nitpicky note, win rate does not measure a ship's ability to influence a match as a whole. A ship with a lower overall influence can have a higher win rate than a ship with more. Khab vs whichever CV is lower is my go to example for this, as every time I have checked Khab has had a higher win rate than at least one Tier 10 CV. The reason for this is due to the restrictions placed on the match maker. DDs having higher average win rates is solid evidence for DDs not being balanced against each other, not that DDs are more influential.
  6. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    That deterrent is so powerful it forces most DDs to abandon the caps until the rest of the team fights off the contesting fleet. If you have to fight off the fleet to get the cap, how is that different than a death match? Killing off early capping strategies isn't a big change now? Radar has nothing to do with preventing torpedo soup, that was taken care of by the proliferation of hydro and the IJN DD nerf.
  7. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    That's a lame excuse. A ship balanced for all levels of play will reward getting better with better results. When a ship isn't balanced for all levels of play, you have periods where the player is getting better but isn't rewarded for it. Playing the game isn't the same as designing the game though, balance issues are a design problem. You can't fix a design problem by telling players to play better. No, you don't. You balance around all players. A bad game experience for newer and less skilled players results in a dead or niche game. This isn't true. DDs in the lower tiers don't hide behind islands for a couple of reasons: torpedoes are much more effective at the lower tiers than the higher ones so most DDs lose a ton of damage behind an island. Open water is actually safer most of the time because you can see threats coming. You don't think that having fewer viable ways to play DDs is a problem? What is the point of different DD lines when they all play the same?
  8. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    By that logic game designers are unqualified to make games. How many hours of game design experience can you prove you have? That's only true if you can see all of the movements of the opposing team. Not even the best player can be sure where every ship is all the time. There are also situations where a DD has to accept a bad match up for a chance to win. Maybe the people who don't like radar are not a monolithic group? The problem with only balancing around the top players, is there is the possibility of ships being unbalanced for the less skilled while simultaneously being balanced at the top levels of play. The objective it to make the game fun and rewarding at all levels of play, not just the top. If its only fun at the top, people will leave before getting there. Where does the game go when that happens?
  9. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    DDs trade a significant amount of firepower for their ability to dictate the terms of the engagement. Thats why they get a consumable they can choose to use to escape. Most DDs are ineffective at longer ranges. At the high tiers it's more that you have to worry about the ships in the next cap over turning their guns on you. It's unusual for everyone to go for one cap, so you get flanked by default. How does nearly every predator that is slower than its prey catch it? I'm not sure how fast a salmon can swim but it certainly is faster than a bear can run through water. How do bears manage to catch salmon then? or snakes and mice? or crocodiles and wildebeests? Have you really never ambushed another ship before? This is an indication that DDs are not balanced vs other DDs. Win rate provides no evidence of balance between the ship types.
  10. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    would you describe that type of play as "passive"? Hey, let's get radared so we know that a radar is on cool down so we can avoid radar. What a brilliant plan. Here you go, proof of the part of the air that we actually breathe.
  11. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    charging in with no plan has the same result with or with out radar. Radar just changes the plan to "never charge in" If the low tiers are so passive why does everything sink more?
  12. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    Getting the caps early isn't bad play, especially in the high tiers as more games end by points there. Getting yourself killed doing it is bad play, and radar makes that the more likely outcome. That changes the risk/reward balance such that capping isn't worth it. It doesn't make better players, it makes more passive ones. I'm confused as to why you are describing cap brawling as "Lazy play". It's one of the hardest and most aggressive things you can do in any ship, not really how I would describe "lazy". If the range of influence is wider for DDs than it is for BBs, that is the bottom 5% of DDs is more useless compared to the top 5% than the bottom 5% BBs are compared to their top 5%, then we would see higher win rates for the top DDs vs the top BBs. Due to the mirrored matchmaking, if the top 5% of DDs are getting more wins then some other DDs are getting fewer wins. None of this suggests that one ship type or another is more influential than another. Damage is much more limited in what it says about balance compared to win rate due to the massive HP difference between the ship types. We can say that DDs don't typically hunt and sink BBs because they don't average enough damage to do so. But we can't say that Conqueror is over powered based on her high damage, her win rate clearly contradicts that. I do think that some of the DD lines should have higher damage. DDs are supposed to counter BBs and the most obvious way to do that is to sink them, but none of the DD lines take that route. With a couple of exceptions that play like cruisers, all high tier DDs play a stealthy support role. And most of that role is unrewarded. There are no torpedo boats in the high tiers and radar kills the cap brawling specialists, what do you do to get some diversity is DD play styles?
  13. Kochira

    Possible Solution to Radar

    When you get enough DDs on either side it can actually be a lot of fun. With the limited amount of firepower each team has access to being spotted in a DD isn't as punishing, so you can be much more aggressive. The result is DD wolf packs gunning each other down, in an extremely fierce battle for the caps. While I don't think every game should be like that, it's fun to change things up some times.
  14. Kochira

    Quality of Life and Balancing Ideas

    But nobody is trying to make every ship the same, just more fair. Most ships don't play drastically differently going up a ship line. Is there really a huge difference between an IJN DD +1 vs an IJN DD +2? Cutting out a ship that plays the same but is better doesn't really change the diversity very much.
  15. Kochira

    Quality of Life and Balancing Ideas

    Ship performance is highly variable, even when the matchmaker is limited. You would still get the difficult fights and easy victories you want.
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