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Norsehound

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About Norsehound

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  1. Norsehound

    Will Subs Move to Randoms?

    The only time I've felt like I've been in a no-win situation is when I'm a RTS CV without any planes left. There is literally nothing left to do, except... try to capture? Hope to lure an enemy ship into range with your pathetic secondaries? I've challenged overconfident DDs with a BB and come out on top. Against a submarine any ship has relevant counter play... starting with simply outrunning them. If your team has more caps then they do and a Submarine underwater is trying to chase you... simply run away. They're incredibly slow while they're submerged immune to bullets, so if they want to catch you they need to surface, becoming vulnerable to your HE guns. I tried chasing a CV like this in a submarine, staying underwater to avoid the wrath of their squadrons, and couldn't keep up. Lost the match. The other way to counter them is that, in order to actually score in the game, they must surface and become vulnerable. So capturing a base or a capture point means the submarine must expose itself to surface gunfire. In a hotly contested cap it will be a challenge between the capturing surface vessel and a sub that cannot surface, for it will instantly die. Porpoising is but one tool in the Submariner's box... but it's their only close-range tactic and it's easy to mess up if the chasing vessel is sitting on the steering wheel. Don't forget that subs have to content with the thicket of other vessels- or the BB has to be willing to charge forward with no protection to get into submarine range. Additionally, sub torps are not as point-and-click on citadel delivery as you would think. You can make the case here that the pressure is not as tough on DDs as you would think with friendly subs helping them kill enemy subs. I know when I drive subs, my priority goes to hunting enemy subs first before turning my attention to slow-moving target boats. It's the same if I was in a DD- hunting other DDs to eliminate the harder, more flexible target ships to make it easier on my friendly surface vessels. I'm dubious the bobbing trick works on subs for anything other than engaging lone targets. Doing this against multiple enemies means the sub will be spotted, and the sub may take out one ship before the teammates crush it (remember, CLs have DCs too, in addition to DDs). Bottom line is I don't feel the situation is impossible for ships against subs as they are now. Could live play reveal some glaring flaws? Possibly, but not to the point where it's impossible for tweaks to be introduced for fixes. Immediately I can think of a fix for the bobbing exploit: torpedoes have a cool down of longer than a moment when you surface and submerge. If you want surface-running torps that are guaranteed to hit you need to be above the water long enough for guns to hit you before you can fire torps. Otherwise, you need to learn how to use the ping. But, this would come about if it's a repeated exploit problem used by all submariners. My guess is that the bobbing is not as effective as you'd think it would be, and too often the trick turns back on the submarine attempting it.
  2. Norsehound

    Will Subs Move to Randoms?

    It is possible to say one thing to the community and have a different story behind closed doors. WG is not obligated to share their true intentions with the game to the players. Like I said, it's a guess.
  3. Norsehound

    Will Subs Move to Randoms?

    Nah, we'll see the Seaview long before SeaQuest ;) Not as silly, but a part of me is really really hoping to see the Penguin's submarine from the 1966 Batman movie as an optional skin for one of the American subs. It's about as ridiculous as some of the other skins already in the game.
  4. Norsehound

    Will Subs Move to Randoms?

    I'll dare to guess that submarines have always been a part of the game concept, but implementing them was a feature kicked down the road in favor of getting the other four classes up and running with some content. Since WG didn't want to make assurances that such a thing would be possible, they floated the idea that they wouldn't be doing them until they set out to try making them work. The Halloween, and current version, submarines are workable as game units. It's tweaking and finesse to make them more satisfactory to play that is the challenge. Honestly? I feel Subs are ready to ship. I was in favor of tweaking the sonar mechanic myself but I think I'm getting the hang of it... and it's part of the ship's skill floor for using properly. An analogy to past WoWs is knowing when and how to expend your planes in the RTS version of carriers. I could never figure it out, I'd always be de-planed by the end of the match so I'd never use CVs. Subs, if sonar is too frustrating for players, they won't use. The notion of every ship being able to counter every other ship in some way is a laudable idea, but I point out that surface ships can't counter carriers until they are in gun range of the CV, while CVs can hit everyone without risk to the CV itself. Sure, AA keeps CV planes away, but determined CVs can sink lone ships just as easily as Submarines can- if not easier because they have area-effect weapons vs the 2 torpedoes a Submarine has to rely on for about 30 seconds. For all of the hulabaloo and fury Submarines are causing in this community I don't see random matches changing dramatically with their inclusion. It means fewer DDs and more submarines dropping torpedoes out of stealth. By the time Submarines really make their presence felt (like say, a Sub Vs BB contesting a cap) the match is already mostly over. I wonder if there's too much fixation on the hypothetical, and prematurely declaring submarines dead for reasons other than their performance.
  5. I dunno... if torps are still the way they were in the public tests, those homing torpedoes kinda suck. More than once I've overshot a battleship and didn't realize it until much later. Getting the homing torps to work is as much an act of faith as anything else, because you have no aim assistance in trying to make the homing component work. The best strikes, IMO, are against inattentive opponents. The closest analogy I can think of to other mechanics in the game is dodging large torp spreads from IJN Destroyers at a long distance (Which are similarly invisible). Difference is instead of a fanned pattern you need to snake through, it's a close pair that you need to try to dodge. Homing torps, at least in the public test, do not turn well and of the three sub types you're at most dealing with 2 pairs of 4. If Subs went live, the next adjustment I see to bring down their power are spotter planes for BBs- to spot DD and Sub torpedoes from a distance to let BBs dodge, or ASW options for carriers so they can be the ASW for ships that don't have ASW capabilities. After all, they serve that stopgap roll for the other classes when something is missing (like being scouts, or countering destroyers with rocket planes). Both options take the pressure off of Destroyers and CLs as counters as well. If I were to guess I'd think that's the next move for WG if subs are perceived to be a problem (after implementing easier stat tweaks, of course). In some ways I really don't see subs changing things dramatically from the way the game is played now, actually, if you mentally swap a submarine for some kind of IJN Destroyer that spends most of the time hidden. Invulnerable at depth as they are, Subs trade away: team-benefiting smoke, fire-support guns, and area-denial torpedo spreads. Sure, you can't hit them with your battleship guns... but they have far less capability than a Destroyer does. You pick up a Sub over a Destroyer if you're a fan of the class, not because they are inherently better. I pick a sub over a DD because I'm willing to trade away guns and speed and smoke for tense stealth play that is more high-risk-high-reward. Plenty of times I've tried to take cap only for the brawl to go badly and get dumped on in the first five minutes. While Subs are stealthy, they also can't escape very fast.
  6. I've noticed this too. Fear of sub strikes without opposition means players need to protect thier counters to remove the subs. Then you need ships to destroy the counters, sometging that CAs and BBs do against Destroyers and Cruisers well. CVs scout and clean up any wounded stragglers, and Subs provide opportunity striking. Once subs are an accepted part of the ecosystem they won't be as bad. But, people will congregate to these forums to whine, whatever is done.
  7. I'm back for subs, going as far as seeking out closed tests to get at them as early as I could. Not just because I like submarines as a vehicle, but boats for me was getting stale. All the gun ships are in a way indistinguishable, and CVs in some games are horribly out-tiered so attacking anything is an exercise in futility. I enjoy DD play for stealth attacks at range already, so subs fulfill a need I was trying to force Destroyers into. Diving feels more realistic than smoke for self defense.
  8. Norsehound

    BB vs Sub counter play

    We'll see. That's part of what the special play mode in the live server is supposed to test.
  9. Norsehound

    BB vs Sub counter play

    Hunting BBs in a sub is harder than you're all thinking. Even with homing torpedoes, I've had enemy BBs dodge my torps without even realizing it.... and often without me realizing my torps already overshot the BB and I was pinging uselessly. SKurj has been consistently pointing out that the game is balanced Team v Team, and ultimately I think that's how normal ships are going to prevail over subs. I agree with him in that we already have a lot of 1v1 matchups that are difficult to overcome. What I think subs will do is force players to be more combined arms, meaning BBs should gun down CLs and DDs in order to keep their own protective forces alive to destroy subs. God forbid a new mechanic that encourages team play! Also, I feel I need to point out that Submarines have zero counter-play against Destroyers, other than desperate dolphin-leap attacks or torping at close range (at the mercy of ramming and surface guns). Persistent DDs will always kill submarines. I feel it's about as "unfair" as you all think Subs will be against BBs, so it strikes me as being a satisfactory compromise.
  10. Norsehound

    submarine deck guns

    I think the only subs that have any business with usable deck guns are ones that were designed deliberately to use them. In other words, Cruiser Submarines. In Halloween we had something derived from the HMS X1, which was armed with four guns in twin turrets. They were designed to fight Frigates and destroyers. Halloween treated these as secondaries, and I can't say they were dramatically successful. The only things I think they did well were firing when the deck was awash, plinking at those shore catapults, and revealing your position. The Surcouf and M-class Submarines are notable for their massive guns. but the M class took about three minutes to reload when on the surface and could only be fired at periscope depth. Based on my experiences in Subs so far, if you did have a surface gun that was actually good enough to cause damage and hit things, the only time you could use it is when you were sure the target's guns were pointed in the other direction. You could get one snipe off, before every cruiser lights you up with shells. Submarines on the surface within firing range don't... don't last long. These guns' long reload times, combined with their historic slow dive times and WG's disinclination to make subs overpowered... I doubt we'll see Cruiser subs as anything but exotic premiums. And no on Deck guns. Your Torps are far more of a threat than that little peashooter. Maybe, I guess, if seaplane tenders and support ships appear in the game. Then deck guns can threaten those.
  11. Norsehound

    Public Test of Update 0.9.4: Round 2

    I also don't see Submarine stuff, or the tokens for submarines as Irish is describing up thread. I do see the selection area talks about Submarines (though nobody has any yet). I'm supposing they will be unlocked 4/17?
  12. Norsehound

    CV counterplay was already in WoWs. They removed it.

    I consider it punishing when you're placed in higher-teir games and the opponent team has untouchable AA- especially if they bunch up. That and American ships make flying planes as a CV tricky propositions when you risk losing your entire squad attempting a drop. That's been my experience at any rate at T8. I don't consider those things you list to be too bad. What I do consider too bad is a complete loss of player agency due to bad luck or insufficient skill. Becoming an unarmed floating target is not something I would wish on anyone, but that's what happened to CV players when they got de-planed. And they were rarely fast enough, or sneaky enough, to effectively ram or cap-steal. I've never managed it anyway. De-planing CVs is not the answer, not if you want the class to be fun.
  13. Norsehound

    CV counterplay was already in WoWs. They removed it.

    Permanent plane loss is why I never played CVs much in the RTS mode- I just saw it as a waste of time. The FS model is punishing, but not to the point where the class becomes pointless to play. Thing is, allowing carrier planes to attack other carrier planes means the CV with the most air supremacy is going to win. They won't be able to touch enemy ships much, but it shuts down the enemy carrier and provides uninhibited scouting for the CV's team. The game gets boring at that point, but that's the natural conclusion I see out of the RTS mode of CV play. That, or when you lost all your planes you have absolutely nothing to do, and it also becomes a waste of time.
  14. Norsehound

    Looking for good predreadnought info

    Hmm... found a review of Fletcher Pratt's that says a referee is needed for play?
  15. Norsehound

    Looking for good predreadnought info

    On the gaming side, I opened up a thread on boardgamegeek with this request and I got some other suggestions. The few that I've looked into (like Seekrieg) seem a bit more complex than I'd like. I was checking out the Quickfire rules as well. Originally I was going to try out a free rules set online called Coal, and the Kaiser (and another for Russio-Japan, Togo)- but they're not as wide (or complete...) as I'd like.
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