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Frist Italian Premium: BB Roma idea


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Phoenix_jz #21 Posted 27 September 2016 - 12:56 PM

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The German AP +1000 bonus only applies to their cruisers... Some of their BBs have some AP buffs from what they 'should' have, but I don't have the info on them with me atm.

Bismarck's AP does 11600 damage, according to the forumla's it should be more along the lines of 11300.

However, that's still well behind the other 15in guns, going by the formula.

Richelieu's guns depend on the year. In her original setup, she's close on Littorio's heels, at 12000 damage per AP shell. After the drop in AP shell weight and muzzle velocity after '42/43, it drops to 11600, same as what Bismarck gets in-game.

Littorio is also year dependent. With her 850mps setup, she's getting 12100 for her AP shells. However, with her original 870mps, you're looking at 12200.

Either way, the 381mm/50 guns will be the most powerful 15in guns in the game, with the highest velocity and range as well.

 

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Ghostdog1355 #22 Posted 27 September 2016 - 03:48 PM

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Italian BBs. One forward speed and three reverse?

"The reason we call ships 'she' is that is costs so much to keep one in paint and powder." - Chester W. Nimitz

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SparvieroVV #23 Posted 27 September 2016 - 04:04 PM

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View PostGhostdog1355, on 27 September 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Italian BBs. One forward speed and three reverse?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Naval-War-Mediterranean-1940-1943/dp/1591145619

https://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Middle-Sea-Mediterranean-1940-1945/dp/1591146488

https://www.amazon.com/Passage-Perilous-Convoy-Battles-Twentieth-Century/dp/0253006031

https://www.amazon.com/Seas-Contested-Seven-Navies-Second/dp/1591146429

https://www.amazon.com/Italian-World-Contributions-Military-Studies/dp/031328797X

https://www.amazon.com/Reevaluating-Major-Naval-Combatants-World/dp/0313261490

 

 



BrentD15 #24 Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:12 PM

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View PostPhoenix_jz, on 26 September 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

Roma would be lovely...
But personally, I third the vote for Vittorio Veneto.

She had quite the operational history... And the class will be glorious fun.
Good armor, good speed, beautiful lines, decent AA, and the most powerful 15in battery ever mounted, 3x3 15in guns in turrets that turn fast enough to make some cruisers jealous... And incredible range on this guns. They'll be quite accurate too, since WG doesn't take into account shell qualtiy.

 

Actually, the high-velocity guns of the Littorio-class' 15 inch guns would have relatively poor dispersion.

At least, that's what I heard.



mr3awsome #25 Posted 27 September 2016 - 09:58 PM

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View PostBrentD15, on 27 September 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

Actually, the high-velocity guns of the Littorio-class' 15 inch guns would have relatively poor dispersion.

At least, that's what I heard.

They did historically, but if the precedent of the Kirov and Molotov are anything to go off of, Littorio will be in a good place. 


 


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Phoenix_jz #26 Posted 27 September 2016 - 11:47 PM

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View PostBrentD15, on 27 September 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

 

Actually, the high-velocity guns of the Littorio-class' 15 inch guns would have relatively poor dispersion.

At least, that's what I heard.

 

View Postmr3awsome, on 27 September 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

They did historically, but if the precedent of the Kirov and Molotov are anything to go off of, Littorio will be in a good place. 

 

Well, as I mentioned in that post, most of the dispersion issues related to the guns came from quality of ammunition. When the ammo was good, this gun was quite accurate. Was that the case all the time? Not at all, so the dispersion, especially coming from such a high velocity gun, tended to get quite wacky.

 

This quote that explains it be found on the navweaps page for the gun;

Spoiler

 

The precedent set by numerous ships, such as Kirov, Molotov, Pensacola, Omaha, all suggests that the biggest issue to plague Italy's dispersion on their cruiser and destroyer caliber guns won't actually have any affect in game. This is the feature where the guns are almost right up against the others in the turret, so effect of one gun firing would effect the ballistics of the other. This plagued all of the Italian twin 120mm, 6in, and 8in mounts, excluding the twin mounts on the Abruzzi class.


 

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SparvieroVV #27 Posted 28 September 2016 - 02:06 AM

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Just use a nonlinear cone to show the dispersion past a certain point is RNGesus time or keep a low max range with tight groupings. It was understood that the guns where accurate to a point. Anything over this range there was only the expectation of possible effectiveness. One of the articles Even the US used dye bags to make up for the variance in weight of shells.

 

Block Quote

  For example, the 16 inch (40.64 cm) Mark 8 AP had a nominal 1.5 lbs. (0.68 kg) dye bag, but this was allowed to be as large as 3.0 lbs. (1.36 kg) in order to bring underweight projectiles up to the standard weight of 2,700 lbs. (1,225 kg). 

 http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

 

To poke the bear a wee bit. :hiding:

 

Block Quote

 

Here are a few extracts from the Admiralty document Progress in Naval Gunnery, 1942) with relevant paragraph numbers

 

326. The most satisfactory and profitable gun actions in the Mediterranean whether fought by battleships, light forces or submarines, have been fought as nearly as practicable at point blank range. The only satisfactory day action commenced at long range and fought to a finish was H.M.A.S. Sydney v. Colleoni.

About the Bismarck action it noted: 


377. Although satisfactory at times, spreads in general appear to have been large and in consequence there must have been many false straddles and wasted rounds. The excessive spreads of the capital ships' main armament salvos at the close of the final action (range 3-4,000 yards) was possibly due to fatigue of layers as the flatness of the trajectory could not have been wholly responsible; the need for more stringent pointer-following drills is indicated. Although the sea was rough, the motion on the capital ships was not unduly heavy.

 

This data is from the 1943 Progress in Naval Gunnery for test firings giving mean spread of five gun salvoes corresponding to the observed 50 percent zone. 

 

King George V at 11,700 yards 326 yards. This was in September 1941
Duke of York 18,200 yards--407 yards (June 1942)
Anson 21,400 yards--413 yards (September 1942)


1937 tests from the Queen Elizabeth class reanged from 324 to 274 yards with the longest range being 16,000 yards. 

 

In contrast, test firing of the 381/50 OTO guns made in 1939 at 21,000 meters (nearly 23,000 yards indicated a dispersion of 290 meters and 185 meters at 17,000 meters. The Ansaldo guns didn’t do as well with a dispersion of 416 meters at 22,500 meters. 

 

The Italian data comes from Il tiro navale italiano by Giuliano Colliva published in Storia Militare 199 (April 2010). He also wrote a longer study published by Bollettino d’archivio of the USSMM in 2003 I referred to eariler.

 

The point is that test firings indicated that the dispersion of the Italian guns was less at equal ranges than test firings made of similarly sized British guns. I’m not sure what evidence exists, other than antidotal, that the Italian problem with dispersion at long ranges was greater than anyone else's.

 

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12145&page=2



TheHunter2_EAD #28 Posted 29 September 2016 - 07:50 PM

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View PostMotorheadEddie, on 25 September 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

I don't have to give them ideas, I'm sure its already on a whiteboard somewhere in marketing. :look:

^ I agree.


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Kriegsmarine​: still in process of negotiate for it come to game
​U.S.S.R.: ask Xero_Snake how it going on it
​HMS: still in process
France: Béarn ​need to negotiate​
​Italian:  Aquila need to negotiate
​Except for few other ship class for a small fleet.
 

TheHunter2_EAD #29 Posted 01 October 2016 - 03:36 PM

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View PostBrentD15, on 25 September 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

 

Don't give WarGaming any ideas!

 

Also, the Litorrio-class of battleships would be rather slow in their rate of fire and have relatively poor accuracy (if WarGaming cares about historical accuracy anymore:hiding:).

^ Why not.

Germany, Poland, USSR, UK, & French ships appear before the lines came out (not French line). Mostly BB in tier VI thought VIII (but not USSR & Poland there DD came out). Why not let Roma be the Frist into the Italian ship line.

Or u one of those WG player who hate Italian war machine.  


I run all CV Tiers:
IJN: all
USN: all
Kriegsmarine​: still in process of negotiate for it come to game
​U.S.S.R.: ask Xero_Snake how it going on it
​HMS: still in process
France: Béarn ​need to negotiate​
​Italian:  Aquila need to negotiate
​Except for few other ship class for a small fleet.
 

BrentD15 #30 Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:12 PM

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View PostPhoenix_jz, on 27 September 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

 

 

Well, as I mentioned in that post, most of the dispersion issues related to the guns came from quality of ammunition. When the ammo was good, this gun was quite accurate. Was that the case all the time? Not at all, so the dispersion, especially coming from such a high velocity gun, tended to get quite wacky.

 

This quote that explains it be found on the navweaps page for the gun;

Spoiler

 

The precedent set by numerous ships, such as Kirov, Molotov, Pensacola, Omaha, all suggests that the biggest issue to plague Italy's dispersion on their cruiser and destroyer caliber guns won't actually have any affect in game. This is the feature where the guns are almost right up against the others in the turret, so effect of one gun firing would effect the ballistics of the other. This plagued all of the Italian twin 120mm, 6in, and 8in mounts, excluding the twin mounts on the Abruzzi class.

So, you're saying the guns will have the range of Yamato and relatively low dispersion?

Damn, that's amazing.



SparvieroVV #31 Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:58 PM

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Realistically I would hope for a high sigma value to 19km with the value getting worse past this point. 

Phoenix_jz #32 Posted 02 October 2016 - 05:00 PM

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View PostBrentD15, on 01 October 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

So, you're saying the guns will have the range of Yamato and relatively low dispersion?

Damn, that's amazing.

 

Depends... I've heard two narratives on how dispersion and sigma work.

1. Dispersion number affects horizontal dispersion, while sigma is related to the vertical dispersion

2. Dispersion is just the max dispersion of the guns in general, horizontal or vertical, while sigma is related to how likely/often the rounds actually go where you aim, as oppose to dispersing out somewhere in the dispersions circle.

I am still not quite certain as to which is correct.

 

Gun range in this game is not dependent on the range of the guns themselves, but is supposedly related more to fire control systems. Otherwise, the Italian 381mm/50 gun would just outrange every other gun in the game with relative impunity. The gun's don't elevate over 35º to 36º, and yet can still hit targets out at 42.8 or 46.6km (APC or HE, respectively).

To compare with what are commonly referred to as the most powerful naval guns ever built, the Japanese 18.1in gun(Yamato), and the American 16in/50 Mk.7(Iowa)...

18.1in:

35º Elevation(same as the 381mm/50's max):

With APC: number not given, but at 30º it's 35.8km, and at 40º it's 40.7km 

45º Elevation(Actual max elevation):

APC: 42km

HE: 32.5km(I don't know why it's lower than the APC number, the HE was fired at a higher velocity but the shell was about a 100kg lighter

16in/50 Mk.7:

35º Elevation:

AP(SHS): 36.1km

HE: 35.3km

45º Elevation:

AP(SHS): 38.7km

HE: 38km

 

Now, seeing as no gun shoots out past 26.6km in this game(Yammie's), and the Littorio class very likely to be tier 8, I doubt we'll see her ability to outrange the tier 10s actually realized in game. However, if she didn't at least have the ability to outrange all the tier 8s, I'd be disappointed...

As to the accuracy of the guns, brand new, with good ammo, they were quite accurate. It was only after barrel wear, or bad ammo, that their accuracy dropped off. If you couple that with the fact that Italian shooting and fire control was quite good thought the war(they usually began to straddle their targets quite quickly, however the dispersion issues, either due to bad ammo(battleships), or the guns being to close together(Heavy cruisers, most light cruisers, most destroyers), they had a hard time actually hitting their targets), then these guns should be quite accurate. Their high velocity should make them quite easy to aim, too, at all ranges.

 

It being WG, I'm worried if they might feel obliged to give bad accuracy because that's the common (mis)conception about the individual guns, and WG likes to assign national flavors, even if it means bending the facts, aka, German Cruisers getting +1000 damage on their AP, in exchange for weaker HE. Really, the only 8in guns that should be doing 5k damage or more with AP are the guns on the Zao, and I forget if it was ever built or fired, and the 8in guns on the Zara and Bolzano classes, if you use the original 950-960mps velocity. Any other 8in gun currently in game doing more AP damage than 5,000 has been given some help by WG...

 

All in all, unless WG says otherwise, they should be high-damage(compared to 15in guns), high-velocity, long-ranged, accurate guns...

 


 

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pewpewpew42 #33 Posted 03 October 2016 - 02:15 AM

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View Postmr3awsome, on 25 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

 

Italy can manage its own tree, thank you very much. 

 

What differences does Roma have to make it worth being a premium?

 

View PostKing_Zacarias, on 25 September 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

 

 

I stand corrected.


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xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx #34 Posted 03 October 2016 - 11:27 PM

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View Postmr3awsome, on 25 September 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

 

Italy can manage its own tree, thank you very much. 

 

What differences does Roma have to make it worth being a premium?

 

Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

mofton #35 Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:29 AM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 03 October 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

Eugen did get to accompany Bismarck at Denmark Strait and survived the war operational which is a feat in itself.

 

Littorio as the nameship. Vittorio Veneto as the premium with her more distinguished combat career (like Eugen). Roma misses out on a premium slot like the 3rd Adm. Hipper, Blucher which had a similarly short active career and tragic end.


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TheHunter2_EAD #36 Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:07 PM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 03 October 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

 

Eugen has proven that sadly, anything can be a premium.

So Roma has a chance then?


I run all CV Tiers:
IJN: all
USN: all
Kriegsmarine​: still in process of negotiate for it come to game
​U.S.S.R.: ask Xero_Snake how it going on it
​HMS: still in process
France: Béarn ​need to negotiate​
​Italian:  Aquila need to negotiate
​Except for few other ship class for a small fleet.
 

TheHunter2_EAD #37 Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:52 PM

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View Postmofton, on 04 October 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Eugen did get to accompany Bismarck at Denmark Strait and survived the war operational which is a feat in itself.

 

Littorio as the nameship. Vittorio Veneto as the premium with her more distinguished combat career (like Eugen). Roma misses out on a premium slot like the 3rd Adm. Hipper, Blucher which had a similarly short active career and tragic end.

 

​So ur saying 1 of Roma sister ships has a chance then?  In my option If Roma is going miss out being a premium at least a normal ship on tech tree would be nice. in the mean time I got this project:  https://plus.google....67-0414e365c972
I run all CV Tiers:
IJN: all
USN: all
Kriegsmarine​: still in process of negotiate for it come to game
​U.S.S.R.: ask Xero_Snake how it going on it
​HMS: still in process
France: Béarn ​need to negotiate​
​Italian:  Aquila need to negotiate
​Except for few other ship class for a small fleet.
 

mofton #38 Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:56 PM

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View PostTheHunter2_EAD, on 07 October 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

 

​So ur saying 1 of Roma sister ships has a chance then?  In my option If Roma is going miss out being a premium at least a normal ship on tech tree would be nice. in the mean time I got this project:  https://plus.google....67-0414e365c972

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Litorrio as the tech tree free one. Vittorio Veneto for the more colorful career. No Roma.


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GrandAdmiral_2016 #39 Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:06 PM

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Roma was taken out by a Fritx X smart bomb dropped from outside of AA range by a Heinkel bomber. A lovely ship that had a tragic ending. I vote for Vittorio Veneto as a Premium. Tier 8 would be a good fit. They are really sharp BBs. I have Ermingo Bagnasco's book The Littorio Class: Italy's Last and Largest Battleships as a Kindle ebook. Worth the read. Love these ships. Italians alway build good-looking ships, in style, like the Ferrari racing cars that I have loved all my life! Could never afford one, but I can dream...

TheHunter2_EAD #40 Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:17 PM

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View PostGrandAdmiral_2016, on 07 October 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Roma was taken out by a Fritx X smart bomb dropped from outside of AA range by a Heinkel bomber. A lovely ship that had a tragic ending. I vote for Vittorio Veneto as a Premium. Tier 8 would be a good fit. They are really sharp BBs. I have Ermingo Bagnasco's book The Littorio Class: Italy's Last and Largest Battleships as a Kindle ebook. Worth the read. Love these ships. Italians alway build good-looking ships, in style, like the Ferrari racing cars that I have loved all my life! Could never afford one, but I can dream...

 

​Well I agree on Vittorio Veneto being a Tier 8 Premium ship being the First Italian for WG.   
I run all CV Tiers:
IJN: all
USN: all
Kriegsmarine​: still in process of negotiate for it come to game
​U.S.S.R.: ask Xero_Snake how it going on it
​HMS: still in process
France: Béarn ​need to negotiate​
​Italian:  Aquila need to negotiate
​Except for few other ship class for a small fleet.
 




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