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Cruisers; Steel, Paper, or Fiction?

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Phoenix_jz #1 Posted 18 August 2016 - 12:55 AM

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Cruisers; Steel, Paper, or Fiction?

In the wake of German battleships finally hitting the servers today, the unveiling of the British (Light)Cruiser Line, I thought I'd make this little chart. When talking about ships, particularly high-tier ones, the 'paper ship' slur gets thrown around a lot(especially around the Russians), as if these ships were purely fictional. that isn't quite that case, though some of the ships in WoWs seem to be...

In any event, i decided to create this handy-dandy chart. Basically, what it's for is to keep track of the ships(just cruisers for the moment, more later) we have in WoWs, and just how 'real' they are. I'm only doing line ships, as premiums kinda exist for the 'wow-that's-cool-but-probably-not-gonna-fit-in-a-line' ships(mostly).

 

I have four categories at the moment;

Green = Ships that were built and saw service

Violet = Ships that were partially constructed, but were destroyed/scrapped before completion 

Blue = Paper ships in the purest sense, existing only as blueprints, but never constructed. 

Orange = I dunno. No, really, i don't know. These are the ships I can find nothing on, and as far as I know are pure fiction constructed by WG to fill tree gaps, which, I guess, if it's necessary, it's necessary. I'm not going to blame them for it if they couldn't find anything, so long as the fictional ship doesn't take the place of a real one.

 

 

USN, RN, IJN, VMF, & KM are all the ships were currently that are confirmed and in. The RM & MN lines(Indicated by the reddish color) we don't know, and are just based off of community speculation. The French one has holes in it, because I frankly don't know a lot about French WWI and pre-WWI cruisers, and for the tier X, I dunno what would go there. So for now, you can kinda ignore them if you want.

Important:

This chart is open to edits! If you guys have anything to add or to fix, then do comment, and I'll edit it! For example, I think I've seen someone mention the Orlan as actually being a design, but I can't find anything on it so for now I've put it as fiction, not a blueprint. Additionally, I know there were loads of Soviet ships that got laid down, but were never completed, so if that's any of the classes I have listed as purely blueprints, fire away!

 

My other "Steel, Paper, or Fiction?" Threads:

Aircraft Carriers

Battleships

Cruisers

Destroyers

 

Edit log:

Edit 1: Yorck changed from Orange to Blue. She is a version of the Entwurf I/10 cruiser design, and appears to be slightly modified by WG, although still retaining the same shape/layout. Pointed out by crzyhawk.

Edit 2: French cruisers have been updated, keep in mind, these are just specualtives. Beautemps-Beaupré, a variation of the Bougainville-class aviso, has been added as the tier I. She's purple, as she was laid down but not completed. Jurien de la Gravière is added as the tier II cruiser as well, the last French protect cruiser, free because she was built and operated during WWI. Both brought up by Lord_Magnus. Also, at tier X, I've put in the C5 SA1 design, which is to St. Louis what Des Monies is to Baltimore. Similar ship, but auto-loaders! Well, semi at least. Same 10 rpm at Des Monies, supposedly.

Edit 3: Wargaming announcement! French cruisers have been announced, much of the placement I had previously was correct, although Suffren isn't present, instead Algérie was dropped to tier VII. There are a couple of blueprint vessels, and an unknown, but I'll go into more detail in the update post.


Edited by Phoenix_jz, 07 March 2017 - 08:41 PM.

 

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Unabletony #2 Posted 18 August 2016 - 12:57 AM

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Good job on making this! :medal:

 

Zao could've been a real plan, but ships that have only gone into blueprint stage and nothing else had no names, like the A-150 class battleships.


Edited by Unabletony, 18 August 2016 - 01:07 AM.

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ckupf #3 Posted 18 August 2016 - 01:30 AM

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iirc Zao was based on a real plan but I can't remember the name, it was alphanumeric I believe. Roon and Hindy are entirely creations of WG.

crzyhawk #4 Posted 18 August 2016 - 01:46 AM

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Yorck was a design study for the Deutchland class panzershiffe called Entwurf I/10.  it should be blue.

 

http://forum.worldof...se/page__st__40



Aetreus #5 Posted 18 August 2016 - 03:21 AM

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Zao is based off of something... somewhere. This, possibly, though Zao differs in a number of ways from that design.

Phoenix_jz #6 Posted 18 August 2016 - 03:25 AM

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I've seen some speculations of Zao's origins potentially being a design that was burned when Japan surrendered, but haven't found anything solid on it.
As for Yorck... Thanks for the link, it was very informative. The certainly seem to share an almost exact basic appearance when it comes to hull, superstructure, funnel, primary armament, and torpedo tube placement, but it also seems that WG has taken some liberties with the design, for example the post mentioning it cites 205mm guns, while the Yorck we know has 210mm guns, among other things. I'll certainly take a deeper look when I have the time, but unfortunately can't atm. Also can't edit it atm, but I will certainly bring Yorck out of the orange category.

 

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Phoenix_jz #7 Posted 18 August 2016 - 08:59 PM

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Alright, so I've updated the chart! Haven't looked further into Zao as of now, but I have looked into Yorck. She seems to be kinda a half and half of blue and orange... She definitely started her life as the Entwurf I/10 design, but appears to've had some modifications from WG, mostly in terms of armament and such. However, she is the same ship, and WG has modified plenty of ships for hull refits to keep them competitive. So she's going from orange to blue.

Credit to crzyhawk for pointing it out.


 

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tugdual #8 Posted 19 August 2016 - 02:20 AM

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To french cruiser

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/20113-etude-d-un-arbre-francais/

 



Phoenix_jz #9 Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:49 AM

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View Posttugdual, on 19 August 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

 

Thanks for this! I don't speak a word of french, so it'll take me a while to get through it, but I'll definitely be going through it!

 

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FirestormMk3 #10 Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:48 AM

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As far as the Roon goes, I think it may be based on the P-class cruisers

 

https://en.wikipedia...P-class_cruiser

 

The major difference I see here is that the guns on the Roon are the same as the Hipper, just with a new layout (the one on the P-class).  The layout is like the P-class, including the 4 15cm cannons as the secondary battery.  I don't know if that's sufficient for it to be blue, but I think it at least merits a mention.



FirestormMk3 #11 Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:58 AM

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Can see something similar here with the Zao.

 

https://en.wikipedia...gn_B-65_cruiser

 

Secondaries are the same Type98 100mm cannons and we see a remarkable similarity in the shape of the ship and her superstructure, but again the main batteries are not upgraded to the battlecruiser size armaments in the plan.  WG has been leaning in WoWS away from using design names like in WoT, so the fact that they didn't use names like B-65 is no more out of the ordinary than the tier IX German BB not being called H39 in this game.  That said, unlike with H39 and H41 some liberties were taken, but they are also occasionally taken with hull variants on steel ships.

 

In any case, food for thought.



Aduial #12 Posted 28 August 2016 - 08:47 AM

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View PostFirestormMk3, on 28 August 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

Can see something similar here with the Zao.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...gn_B-65_cruiser

That thing has 3x3 356 mm guns. Definitely not Zao. 


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Phoenix_jz #13 Posted 28 August 2016 - 02:34 PM

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I'll have to take another look at the Roon and P-class, but the Zao is most certainly not the B-65... That thing has battleship caliber guns battlecruiser like armor

 

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FirestormMk3 #14 Posted 30 August 2016 - 06:20 PM

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View PostAduial, on 28 August 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

That thing has 3x3 356 mm guns. Definitely not Zao. 

 

You'll note I said, like with the P-class, that the main caliber weapons were downsized to standard cruiser levels, probably for balance.  It is obviously not the Zao itself, but I think it may be the paper that WG was inspired by.

Phoenix_jz #15 Posted 01 September 2016 - 10:23 PM

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View PostFirestormMk3, on 30 August 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

 

You'll note I said, like with the P-class, that the main caliber weapons were downsized to standard cruiser levels, probably for balance.  It is obviously not the Zao itself, but I think it may be the paper that WG was inspired by.

 

She might've inspired WG, but that still does''t make Zao a real design anymore than the Großer Kurfürst is. They may have been designed by WG to reflect the next stage in design for either countries warships, heavy cruiser or battleship... but they're still fictitious ships designed by WG.

I understand your logic, but I don't think it's enough to say that those ships are real ships, in the blueprint sense.


 

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Carl #16 Posted 04 September 2016 - 09:31 AM

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The Zao is probably a combination of multiple paper plans. The Armour layout whilst thicker, (duh), is pure mogami. As noted the secondery arrangment appears to bear similarities to other ships. No idea where the 4 triple turrets came from though. That is odd.



SkyRail #17 Posted 04 September 2016 - 11:12 AM

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View PostAetreus, on 18 August 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

Zao is based off of something... somewhere. This, possibly, though Zao differs in a number of ways from that design.

 

This does look very similar to the in game Zao.

She seems to be belongs to IJN maru 6 keikaku (Circle Six Program) super cruiser project, and was design to counter Baltimore and Des Moines

Some refer this class of cruiser as the Unzen class heavy cruiser


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Phoenix_jz #18 Posted 12 September 2016 - 11:14 PM

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From what I can find, the Zao we know is based off of that picture, but that picture is also a fake. It's from a Japanese magazine, and is apparently what the artist thought one of the Circle 6 program ships would look like based on the rough specifications. It's in no way a real design, however. Unfortunately, I can't read Japanese, so i have no idea what the text says itself. This is just what I've found as explanations for the Magazine illustration.

 

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Lord_Magus #19 Posted 27 September 2016 - 08:25 PM

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I would suggest that Beautemps-Beaupré is the obvious Tier 1 "cruiser" for France. My first thought was just a basic Bougainville-class aviso, with the thought of "who cares, it's just Tier 1" regarding their being weaker than other nations' sloops, but then I saw that Beautemps-Beaupré (scuttled before completion) was a modified design with either 4 or 6 100mm/45 Modèle 1933 guns and thus a closer match to the other T1 gunboats/sloops.

 

For Tier 2, Jurien de la Gravière seems like a decent fit. She was the last French protected cruiser and just about the only one that didn't have a mixed-caliber main armament.

 

For Tier 3, there'd be two possibilities I can see. But the one I find more interesting is unlikely because it would break gun caliber progression. Edgar Quinet is an armored cruiser (a type we haven't seen in the game) but doesn't have a mixed-caliber main armament so she's be one of the few armored cruisers that wouldn't fall into the Mikasa trap of near-useless main armament and reliance on close-range only secondaries. The other possibility is the training cruiser Jeanne d'Arc, which has the advantage of flowing directly to Duguay-Trouin at Tier 4 (they have basically identical guns and armor but Duguay-Trouin is much faster and has 12 torpedo tubes). Plus she apparently had a decent war record with the Free French Navy.


Edited by Lord_Magus, 27 September 2016 - 08:26 PM.


Phoenix_jz #20 Posted 28 September 2016 - 02:11 AM

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View PostLord_Magus, on 27 September 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

I would suggest that Beautemps-Beaupré is the obvious Tier 1 "cruiser" for France. My first thought was just a basic Bougainville-class aviso, with the thought of "who cares, it's just Tier 1" regarding their being weaker than other nations' sloops, but then I saw that Beautemps-Beaupré (scuttled before completion) was a modified design with either 4 or 6 100mm/45 Modèle 1933 guns and thus a closer match to the other T1 gunboats/sloops.

 

For Tier 2, Jurien de la Gravière seems like a decent fit. She was the last French protected cruiser and just about the only one that didn't have a mixed-caliber main armament.

 

For Tier 3, there'd be two possibilities I can see. But the one I find more interesting is unlikely because it would break gun caliber progression. Edgar Quinet is an armored cruiser (a type we haven't seen in the game) but doesn't have a mixed-caliber main armament so she's be one of the few armored cruisers that wouldn't fall into the Mikasa trap of near-useless main armament and reliance on close-range only secondaries. The other possibility is the training cruiser Jeanne d'Arc, which has the advantage of flowing directly to Duguay-Trouin at Tier 4 (they have basically identical guns and armor but Duguay-Trouin is much faster and has 12 torpedo tubes). Plus she apparently had a decent war record with the Free French Navy.

 

Interesting... with that increase in firepower, I think they could be made to work. From what I can see of the upgrade, it would be a 3x2 setup, and though these rounds wouldn't do to much damage (13.5kg round), and have a low velocity of 780mps, Navweaps gives a theoretical RoF of 16, and a realistic one of 10, and there are 6 guns, so I'm sure a balance could be struck. 

My big concern is speed, as at best, using the absolute maximum any one of these ships ever reached, is 17.5kts... which is quite slow. However, she'd still be big for her tier, so I suppose one could balance that out with hitpoints.

 

For the tier II, She'd be the slowest, but heaviest ship... armor, ok, firepower... those 164mm guns, 6.5in, are powerful... but they've got a RoF of only 3 rpm. That's the same RoF as Scharnhorst's guns. And there's only 8 of them, and what, it's 5 to a broadside? I've also read her turning radius was something awful like 2000m... but with the right buffs, I think she could work reasonably well. The RoF needs to be at least 4, imo. The Chikuma has a similar armament layout, but with 6in guns, with a RoF of 5 rpm, so they are quite comparable... But Chikuma also goes 26kts, even if her armor is paper lol.

 

For tier III, Edgar Quinet would be incredible... but no, she won't make it, definitely not at tier 3. 14x 194mm guns... and those guns are quite good, except for RoF. Plus, that establishes a precedent for heavy armor and firepower at the cost of speed, almost the opposite of what French cruisers will be like. You're looking at a ship that is both faster and better armored than the St. Louis, and is waaaayyyyyy better armed. That thing could probably out-duel some of the tier 3 battleships XD

 

Jeanne d'Arc is just a no at tier III. I hate to be a party pooper, but even with her moderate speed of 25-27kts, and near total lack of effective armor, she'd still vaporize everything else at tier III. A modern layout of 8x 155mm guns, really good guns, in a 4x2 setup. Enough AA to render most CVs she could meet, literally only the starter ones, ineffective.

Keep in mind, she's fighting ships like the St. LouisChikumaKolberg, and Bogatyr. You think those can stand up to something like the d'Arc? I think not.

 

Overall, I like the ideas for the tiers I & II, both could fit well, or with only minor buffs/nerfs. The D'Arc or Quinet tier III, on the other hand, would just unceremoniously stomp everything else at the tier into the ground. I think France's best bet for a tier III cruiser is to just use one of the German cruisers they got post-WWI as reparations. As long as Germany isn't seeing them in their tree, it shouldn't cause too many problems, no?

 

I think i'll stick in the options for tier I & II, but tier III stay open for now...


 

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