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Invisibility needs to be removed from the game.


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KaptainKaybe #121 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:30 PM

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View PostSkpstr, on 19 May 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

 

And that's ok..... or at least, it would be, if a DD player could be rewarded equally well for things that DON'T involve explosions.

 

Ideally, different ship types would be played because they offer different ways to get decently rewarded, instead of just offering different ways to sink other players.

 

Well, DDs do get a good chunk of base XP and credits from capping. But I do agree that spotting should be rewarded MUCH more than it is now. A player who understand spotting and concealment mechanics is a tremendous asset to their team. It should be encouraged.

RivertheRoyal #122 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:36 PM

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View PostSakuzhi, on 19 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

 

Which ship do I own that has 10km range Secondaries?

 

Do you even know what the hit rate of a Secondary-specced Ship is against DDs? I'll give you a hint, it's less than 1%.

 

"woo" (now, i'm going to point out, I don't actually have a T8+ German Battleship)

 

I want to see Destroyers past 8km because I'm sick of the never detectable nonsense that some DDs get away with, there's no purpose in having a system set up that way.

 

Stop trying to pin me as something I'm not, it was old months ago and hasn't gotten any newer.

 

Either you get that I hate anything that allows a purely one-sided skill effect that removes the person you are fighting ability to actually fight back against you.

 

Or you don't get why I consider that I bunch of crap. You are personally in the latter section because you refuse to realize that I can -sit- at 6km away from a Battleship for the entire match with a Kagero and endlessly fire off Torpedoes and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

And that's crap, just like Smoke-spam is crap for the same reason the only difference is the smoke-spam crap is just outright Broken, and the iJN DDs are a poor method for trying to balance a line that needs to be over-hauled because their skill floor and ceiling are some of the lowest in the entire game.

 

There is a very effective way of rendering DD's—particularly torpedo based DD's—ineffective. 

Unfortunately, it involves teamwork, which is most often sadly neglected in this game, and dismissed. 

Everyone wants to deal with everything themselves, and this isn't the way to go about it. 

 

That being said, it's rare that I see an IJN DD being able to top the team charts. 

I wonder why, if they're able to endlessly spam damage dealing torpedoes from concealment—why aren't they doing better? 


Edited by RivertheRoyal, 19 May 2017 - 04:37 PM.


1nv4d3rZ1m #123 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:43 PM

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If IJN dds were spotted past 8 km they would accomplish nothing and die fast. I also don't see how they can effectively torp things of their detection range is longer than most of their torpedo ranges. What bb in their right mind is going to keep driving straight when he sees an IJN DD aiming at him?

SgtSullyC3 #124 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:45 PM

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View PostRivertheRoyal, on 19 May 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

 

There is a very effective way of rendering DD's—particularly torpedo based DD's—ineffective. 

Unfortunately, it involves teamwork, which is most often sadly neglected in this game, and dismissed. 

Everyone wants to deal with everything themselves, and this isn't the way to go about it. 

 

That being said, it's rare that I see an IJN DD being able to top the team charts. 

I wonder why, if they're able to endlessly spam damage dealing torpedoes from concealment—why aren't they doing better? 

*clears throat* You haven't seen a Kamikaze in a T4-5 match with only one or two DDs and 5 BBs per team, have you? :trollface:


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KaptainKaybe #125 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:48 PM

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View PostSgtSullyC3, on 19 May 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

*clears throat* You haven't seen a Kamikaze in a T4-5 match with only one or two DDs and 5 BBs per team, have you? :trollface:

 

Kamikaze is a clone of pre-nerf Minekaze. She's now considered overpowered for her tier. It's very unlikely you'll see her in the shop again.

RivertheRoyal #126 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:49 PM

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View PostSakuzhi, on 19 May 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

 

Then you should realize that it's a measure that has no real counter, therefore it needs to be changed.

 

As for Smoke spam, you give suggestions, it doesn't change the fact it's a busted [edited]mechanic, like it or not. That is -exactly- what it is. The system is crap, the counters for the system simply don't exist.

 

Oh and before you cry more about the overly-talked about IJN DDs, did you miss the point where I said buff them to adjust for the loss of Concealment? God forbid that you read the entire post :)

 

You see "Smoke spam needs to be changed" and translate that is "Remove Smoke altogether" when that is -clearly- what I did not say.

 

Try actually not inferring anything beyond what I specifically state, because I say what I mean...unless i'm being snarky  which you well...you'll know when that's a thing.

 

 

 While yes, DDs aren't doing much at that range but, I was refuting that they'll be magically deleted at max range by Battleships or Cruisers, not that they would be effective at 12-15km.

 

 

I'm simply playing within the limits of the game as it is now, and giving information as to why some of what you're complaining about exists. 

I'm also giving examples of what works for me, suggesting that perhaps there are ways of dealing with supposedly uncounterable things? 

 

*Sigh* 

 

Look, I'm a reasonably good player. 

And I honestly don't understand why people complain about things like smoke, or concealment.

Maybe it's a skill thing. I don't know. I just don't.  

I've never had a problem with them, nor have I ever really encountered a situation I couldn't solve in some way.

That includes being hunted by IJN DDs, and hit from smoke, by the way. It just doesn't work against me. 

 

 

So, tell me. 

What do you want from me?

Advice? My opinion? My knowledge?

I can give those to you. I can share them.

I cannot, however, give the reason why you think what you do.    

 

 



RivertheRoyal #127 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:50 PM

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View PostSgtSullyC3, on 19 May 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

*clears throat* You haven't seen a Kamikaze in a T4-5 match with only one or two DDs and 5 BBs per team, have you? :trollface:

 

I said IJN DD, not freak of nature. 

RogueFlameHaze #128 Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:53 PM

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IRPerm #129 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:02 PM

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Personally I think that when torps are fired it should raise your visibility. Just like every other ship when the fire their main weapons. 

MrDeaf #130 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:07 PM

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View PostIRPerm, on 19 May 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Personally I think that when torps are fired it should raise your visibility. Just like every other ship when the fire their main weapons. 

 

Yes, because, you know

 

Torps being launched and hitting the water has the same sound levels as 100mm+ guns going off


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ObviousAlt #131 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:22 PM

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I AGREE!!!

Invisibility must be removed! Everyone gets 100% battlefield vision! No more waiting to spot anything! No more "Fog of war"!

Think of the possibilities. Able to nuke ships before they load! No more hiding or sneaking around! Think how quickly Top tier games would go when you can nuke ships as soon as your guns load?

 

 

[/S]

 

 



Lensar #132 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:28 PM

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View PostThe_African_Queen, on 18 May 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

I just had a battle with a DD and my BB. During this battle I dodged 6 salvos of torpedoes without ever catching sight of my opponent who didn't use smoke at any point. This was no fun, totally unrealistic and frustrating as hell. My secondaries should have blown him away despite the massive nerfing of them by Wargaming. Invisibility is ruining the game. Every feature in the game favours DDs.

 

Oh, really??

 



_GreyBeard_ #133 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:34 PM

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View PostLensar, on 19 May 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

Oh, really??

 

 

How about 10 per side,

 



IRPerm #134 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:45 PM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 19 May 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

 

Yes, because, you know

 

Torps being launched and hitting the water has the same sound levels as 100mm+ guns going off

 

Well if you are going to argue the realism route I would point out that;

Every ship model has radar mast on it. Which would make any ship visible at least a 20k distance.

The Ocean is curved and you could hide behind the horizon. However from the bridge of most ships CC and higher that distance would  be ~20k.

 

I would also point out it is not the sound of the guns that would increase your detectability. It is the smoke and flash from them. Even if you were using flashless powder on that size at that time there would be some flash.

 

From a purely game balance point of view I dont see why a DD should not have the same mechanics that all ships have when firing their main weapon.

 



TheBeefKid #135 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:51 PM

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I need to find that clip of me hitting a Gearing for 4k and killing him from 19km away in my Yamato.  Also, I'm sad that no one saw my extremely eye opening comment earlier, so I am going to say it again:

 

If what OP suggests does happen, it would be only fair to make carrier gameplay more realistic :trollface:.  Come on... WG has nerfed carriers into the ground while everyone knows they were superior in the real world.  Only 1 carrier was ever sunk by a BB, and that was because it wasn't captained that well, while many famous ships (or at least ones that we will recognize) were sunk due to aircraft (Alabama, Arizona, Haruna, Hiei, Musashi, Yamato, Roma, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Bismarck, Kaga, Akagi, Amagi, Hiryu, Lexington, Isokaze, Kagero, Mustuki, Shimakaze, Shinonome,  just to name a few).  So why don't we just have CVs be able to launch massive airstrikes on BBs from 300 km away, untouchable, while the BB's AA hardly does anything unless they have grouped up AA.  It is only fair after all, we should look at the proportion of CVs sunk by BBs vs BBs sunk by CVs, just like we should look at the proportion of DDs sunk by BBs to BBs sunk by DDs.

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Edited by TheBeefKid, 19 May 2017 - 05:59 PM.

dark.png

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Destroyer_Kiyoshimo #136 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:52 PM

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View Post_GreyBeard_, on 19 May 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

 

How about 10 per side,

 

 

Too many destroyers in that match.

 

Better nerf them again.


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Sakuzhi #137 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:54 PM

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View PostRivertheRoyal, on 19 May 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

 

There is a very effective way of rendering DD's—particularly torpedo based DD's—ineffective. 

Unfortunately, it involves teamwork, which is most often sadly neglected in this game, and dismissed. 

Everyone wants to deal with everything themselves, and this isn't the way to go about it. 

 

That being said, it's rare that I see an IJN DD being able to top the team charts. 

I wonder why, if they're able to endlessly spam damage dealing torpedoes from concealment—why aren't they doing better? 

 

I did not say that they were effective at doing amazing amounts of damage. That said, you fail, like many DD types, to understand that the complaint is that you are impossible to actually shoot therefore it's [edited], has nothing to do with anything else.

 

As for the 'everyone dealing with everything themselves', let's revisit this 'you can't get detected' and stop thinking it's just Battlehips :) Cruisers can't even do it effectively.

 

So, that's half of the classes in the game right there, and Destroyers should be hard- countered by cruisers yet in majority of the cases they literally can't detect the Destroyer

 

Hm, looks like it isn't just 'hey I can't deal with this personally', it's more "no one can deal with this outside of another DD therefore it's [edited]"

 

And that's the point, it'd be like having a Battleship that is immune to torpedoes and any Cannon under 11", and claiming that's fair and balanced because other Bbs could handle it.

 

This is why radar was brought in the game in the first place, because without it there is literally nothing anyone that isn't a CV could do about Torpedo-soup-spewing DDs. Which while all of the captains that think it's difficult (it isn't) to use these ships and want them to be comically OP, it doesn't change the fact that everyone else doesn't like having to deal with ships they can't kill.

 

Also, next time you try to pin me as just a BB Captain, realize that I do play Cruisers. And my opinion is based off of all of my experience(s) which includes DDs and CVs, funny enough specifically IJN-torp DDs at that

 

But none of you bother to look at that at all :) 

 

 

They need to be changed, because it's stupid what is going on at T6-7 between impossible-to-spot-DDs (Fubuki), and Smoke-spam-without-counters.

 

As for Smoke-spam specifically. Here's the problem(s) with it, first it isn't difficult to use effectively (it really isn't), second it is difficult to counter. It is not difficult to use it, with a minimal amount of Teamwork it is however difficult to deal with when it used against you. It isn't just IJN-DDs, in fact it isn't even them. It's the fact you can play disappearing Battleship(s) with little to no effort, or Cruisers. It's literally game-breakingly OP

 

And there is 'no' counter to my Battleship vanishing 6-9km away from your Cruisers and Battleships, you can just take it up your rear.

 

Therefore, given that it is not hard to use to cause game-changing actions, and it is either impossible, or very difficult to 'counter' it, it is broken and needs to be changed. 

You can (And i'm not saying do -all- of the following)

1) Prevent anyone from inside of a Smoke cloud see 'out' of the smoke cloud regardless of if someone is spotting for you or not. (The change is you can't look out but someone can 'radio' you locations, in this change there would be none of that)

2) Instead of dropping the ability to detect ships in a smoke cloud to 2.5km or w/e. Have it be a flat 50% (or some other %) of their actual detection range, this doesn't -really- effect Destroyers as much as it does Battleships and Cruisers hiding in the clouds, and is likely the best method going forward.

3) Increase the amount of Cruisers with Radar as well as having it down to T6 (Like you know US Cruisers from T6+ instead of T8+), this will allow for more effective counters being available.

 

As for Destroyers, they could crank up the detection to be 10km or more for all ships (some Cruisers will be effected), and you know.

 

Reduce the over-sized Models in the game so they would be pretty much impossible to hit at medium/long ranges with a Battleship/Cruisers..and yes, your Destroyer models are 'over-sized' and have been since CBT or CAT?

 

As for the BB queue's keep in mind the Bismarck Event and Hood release has massively increased their queue numbers and all of you know it.


Edited by Sakuzhi, 19 May 2017 - 05:55 PM.

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TheBeefKid #138 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:55 PM

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View PostDestroyer_Kiyoshimo, on 19 May 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

 

Too many destroyers in that match.

 

Better nerf them again.

 

I heard someone say destroyer!  They must still exist somehow :hmm:...  Better nerf them again!

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RivertheRoyal #139 Posted 19 May 2017 - 05:55 PM

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View PostIRPerm, on 19 May 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

 

Well if you are going to argue the realism route I would point out that;

Every ship model has radar mast on it. Which would make any ship visible at least a 20k distance.

The Ocean is curved and you could hide behind the horizon. However from the bridge of most ships CC and higher that distance would  be ~20k.

 

I would also point out it is not the sound of the guns that would increase your detectability. It is the smoke and flash from them. Even if you were using flashless powder on that size at that time there would be some flash.

 

From a purely game balance point of view I dont see why a DD should not have the same mechanics that all ships have when firing their main weapon.

 

 

You have to ask yourself at moments like this—what would something like this be intended to change? 

 

Is it to let you know when a DD fires their torpedoes? 

 

Sorry, but this is an idea that simply won't work, due to the length of time a torpedo salvo spends in the water. Letting you know exactly when a DD launches torpedoes gives too much advance warning, and it would become childishly easy to dodge torpedoes in this case. 

It's okay to increase the visibility of the main battery when thats fired, because that's not easy to avoid. The shells only spend so much time in the air, while torpedoes sometimes a solid minute to reach their target. 

 

Things are fine as they are right now. 



Destroyer_Kiyoshimo #140 Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:03 PM

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View PostSakuzhi, on 19 May 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

You can (And i'm not saying do -all- of the following)

1) Prevent anyone from inside of a Smoke cloud see 'out' of the smoke cloud regardless of if someone is spotting for you or not. (The change is you can't look out but someone can 'radio' you locations, in this change there would be none of that)

2) Instead of dropping the ability to detect ships in a smoke cloud to 2.5km or w/e. Have it be a flat 50% (or some other %) of their actual detection range, this doesn't -really- effect Destroyers as much as it does Battleships and Cruisers hiding in the clouds, and is likely the best method going forward.

3) Increase the amount of Cruisers with Radar as well as having it down to T6 (Like you know US Cruisers from T6+ instead of T8+), this will allow for more effective counters being available.

 

1) Sure. If we also prevent you from getting targeting information on anything spotted further than your battleship would be able to spot it.

2) This has been batted around before. It's more of a nerf to battleships in smoke than anything else.

3) Because you want your spotters to play even more passively? I mean, you don't want us to do any damage, and with this change even spotting for you would become stupidly risky (assuming change 1 isn't made in which case spotting becomes pointless too)


 Kiyoshimo's aircraft carrier rework Kiyoshimo's Torpedo Campaign

I am the Hull of my Torpedo. Steel is my body and Oxygen is my blood. I have caused over one thousand hull breaches. Unknown to flames, nor known to penetrate. I have withstood pain to launch many torpedoes. Yet those guns will never shoot anything.
So, as I pray-- Unlimited Torpedo Works





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