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A tiny experiment. Want to play tier 8? Get matched against tier Xs in 11/11 games


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Darthvader_9 #21 Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:37 AM

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View Postgurudennis, on 18 May 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

 

Scharnhorst is by nature of her armament rather dependent on fighting lightly armored cruisers and German battleships, i.e. the kind of targets she can reliably put the hurt on. Pit her against an Atago, an NC or even a Colorado (don't even get me started about the invincible "battlecruiser" Amagi) and it's a whole different story when it comes to trading shots. It's not that Scharnhorst doesn't necessarily uptier well but rather that she has a very specific and unique preference of the kind of ships she wants to fight.

 

Ultimately I think no ship at no tier should have to fight predominantly uphill. The occasional uptiering is OK, but it's when it becomes habitual that we have an issue.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I try and give them hell :izmena:

Destroyer_Kiyoshimo #22 Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:42 AM

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I've been recording my matches since last week.

 

out of 32 matches in tiers 5-8, I have been bottom tier 29 times. Tier doesn't matter, chances are I'll be bottom.

 

Tier 5? Fought tier 7s 8/8 times.

Tier 6? Fight tier 8s 8/9 times.

Tier 7? Fight tier 9s 9/10 times.

Tier 8? Fight tier 10s 4/5 times.

 

Bonus round: my 3 tier 9 games were all in tier 10 matches as well.

 

It makes me not want to play anymore. I'm not good enough at this game to find this kind of deck-stacking fun.


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publord #23 Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:44 AM

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View Postgurudennis, on 18 May 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

 

Scharnhorst is by nature of her armament rather dependent on fighting lightly armored cruisers and German battleships, i.e. the kind of targets she can reliably put the hurt on. Pit her against an Atago, an NC or even a Colorado (don't even get me started about the invincible "battlecruiser" Amagi) and it's a whole different story when it comes to trading shots. It's not that Scharnhorst doesn't necessarily uptier well but rather that she has a very specific and unique preference of the kind of ships she wants to fight.

 

Ultimately I think no ship at no tier should have to fight predominantly uphill. The occasional uptiering is OK, but it's when it becomes habitual that we have an issue.

 

 

Flat shell arcs are not a positive trait on a battleship.

 

 



Hellgrunt #24 Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:56 AM

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View PostDestroyer_Kiyoshimo, on 17 May 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

I've been recording my matches since last week.

 

out of 32 matches in tiers 5-8, I have been bottom tier 29 times. Tier doesn't matter, chances are I'll be bottom.

 

Tier 5? Fought tier 7s 8/8 times.

Tier 6? Fight tier 8s 8/9 times.

Tier 7? Fight tier 9s 9/10 times.

Tier 8? Fight tier 10s 4/5 times.

 

Bonus round: my 3 tier 9 games were all in tier 10 matches as well.

 

It makes me not want to play anymore. I'm not good enough at this game to find this kind of deck-stacking fun.

 

If your tiers VI and VII are fighting Tier VIII 97% of the time? That just go's against this whole thread. Sounds more like plain Bad Luck. Personally it's quite satisfying destroying a tier X with a tier VIII.

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Taichunger #25 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:01 AM

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I think the OP was simply unlucky. Here is the data from my last 70 games in T8 ships, with highest tier ship noted. Of these 70 games, 27 were uptiered to T10, which is pretty much what you'd expect if 1/3 of games are uptiered. I might have a slight tendency to be uptiered more because I play at off-peak hours often.

 

One thing I have observed but purely anecdotal: almost every game with a T10 has several T10 ships, but the T9 games often only have 1 T9. But I don't have data to support that. Just a feeling.

 

I avoid certain ships because I don't uptier well in them. Kutuzov is ideal because it makes $$ and burns T10 ships just as well as T6, and I play it solidly. Tirpitz and Bismark do fine uptiered. 
 

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Taylor3006 #26 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:07 AM

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I don't mind playing tier 8 with the +2/-2 with my destroyers only. They are fast, nimble, and easy to hide so things are not terrible for them. I get most frustrated with my only tier 8 cruiser which is a premium Atago that I have been using to grind up my IJN captains and only use it for that. Get a first win bonus and let it be, normally takes a few games. Because of the matchmaking I have ceased almost all upward momentum on every single line of ships. It is frustrating to get hammered by the same class of ships at ranges you can not respond to. You can not move close in to support your destroyers in a cruiser because you will get deleted by the tier 9 and 10's. You can not stay back and hang with the battleships because there is nothing for you to shoot at. All you can manage to do is hide behind a rock somewhere and hope you can get an ambush. Heck even the higher tiered DDs are not scared of you due to the massive rate of fire and maneuverability advantage they have against your lower tiered cruiser. Get really tired of the people saying they can do just fine being uptiered, you know what, if tiers do not matter, remove all of them. Let the tier 6's slaughter the tier 4's, am sure there are plenty if players that can "do well" in their Kumas (or whatnot) against Clevelands and the like. IMHO having to have a +2/-2 matchmaking shows how weak the game really is. You are unable to attract and keep players because the game is becoming a miserable experience. Because the game punishes tier 10 players economically, they decided to sacrifice the "up and comers" as targets for them to pad their stats. It is pitiful and embarrassing to hear someone brag about how good their are because of "stats" when the real statistics should be recorded about how good they do against COMPARABLE ships (tier wise).



Destroyer_Radford #27 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:34 AM

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View PostTaylor3006, on 18 May 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

I don't mind playing tier 8 with the +2/-2 with my destroyers only. They are fast, nimble, and easy to hide so things are not terrible for them. I get most frustrated with my only tier 8 cruiser which is a premium Atago that I have been using to grind up my IJN captains and only use it for that. Get a first win bonus and let it be, normally takes a few games. Because of the matchmaking I have ceased almost all upward momentum on every single line of ships. It is frustrating to get hammered by the same class of ships at ranges you can not respond to. You can not move close in to support your destroyers in a cruiser because you will get deleted by the tier 9 and 10's. You can not stay back and hang with the battleships because there is nothing for you to shoot at. All you can manage to do is hide behind a rock somewhere and hope you can get an ambush. Heck even the higher tiered DDs are not scared of you due to the massive rate of fire and maneuverability advantage they have against your lower tiered cruiser. Get really tired of the people saying they can do just fine being uptiered, you know what, if tiers do not matter, remove all of them. Let the tier 6's slaughter the tier 4's, am sure there are plenty if players that can "do well" in their Kumas (or whatnot) against Clevelands and the like. IMHO having to have a +2/-2 matchmaking shows how weak the game really is. You are unable to attract and keep players because the game is becoming a miserable experience. Because the game punishes tier 10 players economically, they decided to sacrifice the "up and comers" as targets for them to pad their stats. It is pitiful and embarrassing to hear someone brag about how good their are because of "stats" when the real statistics should be recorded about how good they do against COMPARABLE ships (tier wise).

 

I find Atago uptiers very well, on account of having her heal, and having the second highest HP in the IJN cruiser line.

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KaptainKaybe #28 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:42 AM

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Being bottom tier in battleships and destroyers is not so bad as they are still reasonably competitive.

Being bottom tier in a cruiser without Repair Party or Smoke means you are completely f*cking hosed. ALL tier 8 cruisers should have access to Repair Party now, or just continuously get sh*t on in tier 10 matches.

Taylor3006 #29 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:52 AM

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View PostDestroyer_Radford, on 17 May 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

 

I find Atago uptiers very well, on account of having her heal, and having the second highest HP in the IJN cruiser line.

 

Well it helps, the biggest problem is the ranges and rates of fire of the upper tiered cruisers. When I do get in range, they fire SEEMINGLY twice as fast as I do. Watching a Neptune or Minotaur spew out a continuous line of AP shells from smoke is annoying. I usually get off two salvos before being deleted if I try and fight or lose half my health trying to escape. Either way it makes for a miserable gaming experience. What I have taken to is staying hidden and using my torps until I have no choice but to use my guns. I play her like a DD and that seems to help some but the minute I am spotted, I do not have the speed or agility to get out of Dodge before getting annihilated.

Cuesta_Rey #30 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:59 AM

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When I used to play WoWP, they decided to limit the MM to a 1 tier spread. It completely hosed up the queue times and players were waiting 5 minutes and more for a match. They are probably nervous about making changes in fear it will cause the same problem here, although there is a much larger player population here. In any case, we must be careful about what we wish for. Just when you think it can't get worse, it does. :sceptic:

gurudennis #31 Posted 18 May 2017 - 05:59 AM

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One ship or ship type happens to uptier well, therefore uptiering is OK?

 

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Taylor3006 #32 Posted 18 May 2017 - 06:29 AM

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View PostCuesta_Rey, on 17 May 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

When I used to play WoWP, they decided to limit the MM to a 1 tier spread. It completely hosed up the queue times and players were waiting 5 minutes and more for a match. They are probably nervous about making changes in fear it will cause the same problem here, although there is a much larger player population here. In any case, we must be careful about what we wish for. Just when you think it can't get worse, it does. :sceptic:

 

+1/-1 was the meta here in WoWS when I started. Every once in a while someone would complain, but mostly it was a non issue. The problem was at upper tiers where there are fewer players, the economy was (and IMHO still is) broken and they had long queue times. Wargaming "fixed" this by increasing the spread to 2 at everyone beyond tier 4 which gave the high tiers more targets to shoot at with shorter queue times. This annihilated the really fun tiers of 5 thru 8, again my opinion. I can tell you this, since the change, there has been more people complaining in the forums about it than there was before. The upper tier players (9 & 10) have no complaints because their queue times are short and they are facing decidedly inferior opponents. This allows a decent player at those tiers to gain better stats so they like it. The problem is with average players grinding up from 5 like myself, to get disgusted with the game and pretty much quit caring about the matches. I went from "fighting to win" to "fighting to get what I need for campaigns/missions and everything else be damned". On the upside the higher tiered players who supported the change will end up with me on their team eventually.  

Battlecruiser_Tiger #33 Posted 18 May 2017 - 06:39 AM

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I hate tier 8 now. I played 6 consecutive games in a row tonight uptiered to tier 10, and lost 5 of them. It's just ridiculous - I'm so tired of matchmaking in this game. 

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gurudennis #34 Posted 18 May 2017 - 06:44 AM

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View PostBattlecruiser_Tiger, on 17 May 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

I hate tier 8 now. I played 6 consecutive games in a row tonight uptiered to tier 10, and lost 5 of them. It's just ridiculous - I'm so tired of matchmaking in this game. 

 

A lot of the veterans are, too. WG has been ignoring the signs so far but this current state of affairs is slowly eating away at the core audience of dedicated whales who like to play their T5-8 premiums, as well as those more casual players who used to farm silver T5-6 ships for credits to progress in the tech tree. I believe WG is biting the hand that feeds the company without really recognizing what's going on.


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Battlecruiser_Tiger #35 Posted 18 May 2017 - 06:48 AM

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View Postgurudennis, on 18 May 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

 

A lot of the veterans are, too. WG has been ignoring the signs so far but this current state of affairs is slowly eating away at the core audience of dedicated whales who like to play their T5-8 premiums, as well as those more casual players who used to farm silver T5-6 ships for credits to progress in the tech tree. I believe WG is biting the hand that feeds the company without really recognizing what's going on.

 

Yup. I was tempted to shell out $100 for the epic Hood, but I've decided to just wait until the 9th and get the bare-bones one - I always liked the Repulse camo, anyway, and I just can't see dropping a hundred bucks in a game I might not even be playing in 6 months. Nothing ever changes here. WG promises a carrier revamp, and they seem to have totally backed off on it, every new map introduced seems to be worse than the last, and we haven't gotten a new game mode in nearly a year. Why should I keep dumping money into a product that doesn't appear to do anything with my cash other than release new lines? I can only grind so many trees before I'm left with a pile of firewood and a blunt axe to grind.

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Taichunger #36 Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:13 AM

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View Postgurudennis, on 18 May 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

 

A lot of the veterans are, too. WG has been ignoring the signs so far but this current state of affairs is slowly eating away at the core audience of dedicated whales who like to play their T5-8 premiums, as well as those more casual players who used to farm silver T5-6 ships for credits to progress in the tech tree. I believe WG is biting the hand that feeds the company without really recognizing what's going on.

 

Yep. I can totally agree with this. I think it would help a lot if WG said "Look, we know we screwed T5-6, but here's the data that shows it is good for the overall state of the game. This change has made it grow and ensured the long term survival of WOWs." Many of us would be more comfortable.

But of course, we don't see any obvious positives, and I don't see any great jump in the server population. I dont buy premiums from those tiers any more, skipped Alabama, and will likely skip the Hood and the T7 Amagi reskin as well. 

Sad. Miss the days of pew pew pew in my Murmansk. 

Edited by Taichunger, 18 May 2017 - 07:32 AM.

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Still needed: (1) a NO CV button for the MM (2) Remove Shatter (3) a button for demounting all flags (4) the icon in the status bar to signal someone wants to div/chat with you


mmfullen #37 Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:52 AM

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Think of all the extra damage you can farm in tier X matches...

 


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Skpstr #38 Posted 18 May 2017 - 11:37 AM

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View PostKalishniKat, on 18 May 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

But WG says +2 MM is balanced and everyone loves it. It's killing tiers 5 and 6 and sucks all the way up to tier 9 where you can only face +1. But the high tier guys say having tier 4 protected is the problem. I think not.

 

To be fair, the "high tier guys" are right in regards to some of the people. Many people had no issues with MM when their Tier 5 and 6 ships weren't down 2 tiers more than half the time.


 


Slimeball91 #39 Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:14 PM

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View PostCuesta_Rey, on 18 May 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

When I used to play WoWP, they decided to limit the MM to a 1 tier spread. It completely hosed up the queue times and players were waiting 5 minutes and more for a match. They are probably nervous about making changes in fear it will cause the same problem here, although there is a much larger player population here. In any case, we must be careful about what we wish for. Just when you think it can't get worse, it does. :sceptic:

 

Why can't we have +1/-1 MM and go to +2/-2 if queue times are getting too long at lower population hours?


Edited by Slimeball91, 18 May 2017 - 12:14 PM.


Skpstr #40 Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:31 PM

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View PostTaylor3006, on 18 May 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

 

Well it helps, the biggest problem is the ranges and rates of fire of the upper tiered cruisers. When I do get in range, they fire SEEMINGLY twice as fast as I do. Watching a Neptune or Minotaur spew out a continuous line of AP shells from smoke is annoying. I usually get off two salvos before being deleted if I try and fight or lose half my health trying to escape. 

 

That's not a high-tier thing really, so much as a CL thing.


 





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