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HMCS Haida, your thoughts

haida interest guaging historical ships

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MrDeaf #21 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:38 AM

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Want

  • Sentimental value: It was my backyard ship that was like a 5min drive away in Ontario Place (yes, before it was moved)
  • It is the one and only Tribal-class Destroyer still in existence today

 

Worth

  • Definitely Common Wealth tree. Haida features some minor differences to RN Tribal-class, due to the proximity of US manufacturing capabilities.
  • Namely Boffins gun, which is a 40mm Bofors single mounted on a Oerlikon pedestal.

 

Tier = T6 or T7 (It's T6.5, inbetween)

  • It's the size of T8/9, but its armament is more like T6.
  • 1884t standard displacement, 2560t full load (comparison: Benson 1630t/2400t, Fletcher 2050t/2500t)
  • 3x Twin 120mm 12RPM main guns, 1x Twin 102mm 20rpm secondary guns, 1x Quadruple 533mm torp launcher
  • RN 120mm/45 QF Mark XII guns have USN 127mm/38 shell arcs
  • total main gun rpm is T6/7 material ↓
  • 6x 12rpm = 72rpm (comparison: Farragut/Mahan 5x 15rpm = 75rpm, Sims 4x 18rpm = 72rpm)
  • Single quad torpedo launcher is highly unimpressive when you consider your firepower is equal to T6/7 USN DDs featuring more torps

 

General thoughts

  • WW2 Haida was built after changes to the original Tribal design of 8x 120mm guns, so features less firepower.
  • WW2 Haida was even more focused on ASW armament and it's AA armament is still not very good for a WW2 era DD
  • Korean War era Haida has the same kind of AA guns you find on Des Moines. Those 76mm/50 guns that chew through aircraft. The cost is another main gun turret.
  • Much of the ASW armament on Haida is useless in WoWs, despite having really strong ASW gear.

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Khafni #22 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:38 AM

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I am not Canadian but I really think she would be a great premium ship option. Her combat history qualifies her without a doubt. And since the Tribal class is an important DD class, which I expect will be represented in the British DD line, she would make an excellent Commonwealth addition as is Perth. I would think she fits better as a T7 rivalling Blys but I think you guys would already have an idea where Tribals fit in.

 

Make it happen! I would definitely prefer to see her over Kidd

 

As to your name you should stay Pigeon of War. It is very unique. And pigeons "strut" better than dovesanyway.


 

 


Fog_Cruiser_Yuubari #23 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:38 AM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 16 May 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

 

Agreed! HMCS Sackville seems to do doing quite well and since she's such a small ship along with being in the public eye on the Halifax harbour-scape, Haida needs some attention!

 

Throw out a Naval Legends episode too and release her for Canada's 150th Birthday this year!

 

^I almost forgot about our Birthday! Wargaming! Make with the Haida~Present!!!

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RedEagle86 #24 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:41 AM

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  1. I want the ship because:  I’m Canadian, it’s most likely the only Canadian ship that could be put into WoWS, it’s the only surviving Tribal-class Destroyer in the world, it’s Canada’s most-decorated ship, it’s service history (see bit about Scharnhorst), it actually served with the Błyskawica,
  2. Definitely into the Commonwealth Tree, since while a Canadian tree might be fun (lots of paper ships!), we didn’t have original designs in our Navy. 
  3. As others have stated, whatever tier you put the Tribal-class of Destroyers in, but probably the Tier 6-7 range.
  4. Giving us Harry DeWolf as the commander – he was the first commander of the Haida, but he also commanded the 2 CV’s that Canada had post-war.  He also served as the Chief of Naval Staff for the RCN.
  5. Dove of War would’ve been ironic, but I prefer pigeon, for various reasons.

Edited by RedEagle86, 17 May 2017 - 12:42 AM.


GrafZeppelinKai #25 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:41 AM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 16 May 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

Throw out a Naval Legends episode too and release her for Canada's 150th Birthday this year!

 

This is a great idea

 

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xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx #26 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:43 AM

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View PostGrafZeppelinKai, on 16 May 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

 

Mmm Understood, but I presented as an option because It would really make her stand-out from a typical Tribal-class that will one day grace the Brit tech tree. 

 

Think of it as getting the Belfast treatment. 

 

I just have trouble seeing how to properly balance her as a post war ship. Both of her guns are facing forward, so she could not fight any ship behind her. Her AA armament was reinforced but I don't see that helping, as carriers are not in every game. 

xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx #27 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:49 AM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 16 May 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

1884t standard displacement, 2560t full load (comparison: Benson 1630t/2400t, Fletcher 2050t/2500t)

 

The Canadian Tribal's actually had a displacement of 2,745 tons fully loaded, so she's even more chunky. 

 

View PostMrDeaf, on 16 May 2017 - 08:38 PM, said:

AA armament is still not very good for a WW2 era DD

 

Haida was armed with one dual 4 inch gun, one quad 40mm "Pom Pom" and six dual 20mm Oerlikon guns. Her close range AA should be decent however, I don't know if they will count her 4.7 inchers as dual purpose, since they worked but not very well.



How_Terrible #28 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:49 AM

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View PostPigeon_of_War, on 16 May 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hey all!

 

I keep hearing that HMCS Haida should be added to the game. I'm curious how large the general interest in this ship is.

So, if you could please:

  • Tell me why you want this ship
  • Tell me if you think it's worth adding to Commonwealth tree, since I personally don't know if a Canadian line is viable at this time but it's fun to imagine
  • Tier Thoughts?
  • General thoughts?

 

Bonus question

  • Should I have gone with Dove_of_War instead, and gone for the irony?

 

I have only one thing to say. If Haida is added let here be added at tier 7/8 and give her the gun batter she was originally built with. Not the post-war battery she has today.

Guten Tag


Adm_Nate_Ellis937 #29 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:54 AM

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Shes a ship that deserves to be in the game. I agree with the others, make her present for Canada's 150th Birthday. :)

 

Also, were awesome at marching :P

 



MaliceA4Thought #30 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:58 AM

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Lets see..  she is a North American museum ship that is NOT USN  (Her berth was designated a Canadian National Historic site in 1984).  She had an outstanding record in the war.  She was an iconic design, that base design will also be needed (I expect) for the RN DD line or premium as HMS Cossack, so the changes to the ship should be minimal.  The tribal design was designed to potentially face ships of the Fubuki class in reality.

 

She served on Convoys.. in the Channel attacking small ships and destroyers and rescuing survivors of battles and downed pilots returning from over Germany., she sank submarines in the channel, she served with Blysky sinking good tonnage including some escorts and a merchant ship, she took part in numerous missions down to the Bay of Biscay, she then had a refit and served in the Norwegian coast area.  After that they went back to Canada and were refitting for tropical operations when Japan Surrendered.  She then also served with distinction in the Cold War the Korean war during which she became a member of the trainbusters club, by shelling and destroying a railway locomotive travelling along the coastal route.

 

She received the floowing honours for serving with distinction in each of the following conflicts  (these are not the awards for just being in the area)

 

  • Arctic 1943–1945
  • English Channel 1944
  • Normandy 1944
  • Biscay 1944
  • Korea 1952–1953

 

During the war, she had the highest tonnage sunk of any Canadian warship.  The mileage she steamed in servbice was the equivalent of 27 times round the world

 

As to where she fits in the Wows trees..  bearing ion mind the tribal class had 4x2 4.7" guns,  the Canadian tribals had one of the 4.7" turrets removed and replaced with on 4" DP turret but I would see her at 6/7 depending on what the plan is for RN Tribals.

 

M.


Edited by MaliceA4Thought, 17 May 2017 - 01:13 AM.

  

 

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LordBenjamin #31 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:59 AM

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I doubt I'd buy it but I understand the desire to have nationally famous ships in the game and would certainly not mind them working on this instead of other things.

xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx #32 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:01 AM

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Another thing most people are saying, I highly doubt the tribal class will be showing up on the tech tree. They are gun focused oddities in a tech tree otherwise dominated by balanced designs, Cossack will likely be the RN premium Tribal with all four of her 4.7 inch guns and terrible AA.

 

The J/K/N class destroyers fit much better as tech tree ships, the Tribal's famous nature helps them as premiums.



DingBat #33 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:05 AM

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Posted Image

 

'nuff said



MaliceA4Thought #34 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:11 AM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 16 May 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

Another thing most people are saying, I highly doubt the tribal class will be showing up on the tech tree. They are gun focused oddities in a tech tree otherwise dominated by balanced designs, Cossack will likely be the RN premium Tribal with all four of her 4.7 inch guns and terrible AA.

 

The J/K/N class destroyers fit much better as tech tree ships, the Tribal's famous nature helps them as premiums.

 

agreed, but who nows how this games developers will make the RN destroyers an unwanted breed in the game.

 

M


  

 

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Scytheon #35 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:15 AM

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Personally, I didn't even know about the Haida until I started playing this game and reading up on some of the ships. While the prospects for captain training may be lacking as a commonwealth ship I think she should be a high priority for implementation.

 

A) Her service history with the Blys just makes it right that she should be added in the game (Preferably at the same tier).

B) Canada played a very important role in convoy defense and should have some representation in game.

C) British destroyer with single launch would be nifty and different.

D) New (Non-Russian) boats are always welcome.

 

P.S. Yes to Dove-of-War


Edited by Scytheon, 17 May 2017 - 01:16 AM.


MrDeaf #36 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:20 AM

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View PostxX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx, on 16 May 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

 

The Canadian Tribal's actually had a displacement of 2,745 tons fully loaded, so she's even more chunky. 

 

 

Haida was armed with one dual 4 inch gun, one quad 40mm "Pom Pom" and six dual 20mm Oerlikon guns. Her close range AA should be decent however, I don't know if they will count her 4.7 inchers as dual purpose, since they worked but not very well.

 

The AA on Haida is easily estimated, since most of those are already in game.

No, the 120mm guns, while original intended for DP function, turned out to be really bad for AA duty, which is why the RN swapped out a turret for the 102mm DP

 

Gun DPS Range ←Haida Sims→ Range DPS Gun
1x Twin 102mm/45 QF XIX 9.4 5.01km     5.01km 32.1 3x Single 127mm/38 Mk30 mod.0
1x Quad 40 mm Vickers 2-pdr. Mk VII 14 2.49km     5.01km 10.7 1x Single 127mm/38 Mk30 mod.1
6x Twin 20mm Oerlikon Mk V 36.6 2.01km     2.01km 7.2 2x Single 20mm Oerlikon Mk4
          1.2km 15.2 4x Single 12.7mm Browning
               
Total 59.9         65.2 Total
Long Total 9.4         42.8 Long Total

 

and 102mm/45 apparently has a 5km base range as a secondary battery on RNBB and RNCL... should be interesting on a DD.


Edited by MrDeaf, 17 May 2017 - 01:25 AM.

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Special_Kay #37 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:23 AM

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On tiering

She's a 1936 design with six 120mm L/45 guns. At roughly 12 RPM per gun this destroyer has the same density of fire as Tashkent or Udaloi, albeit with smaller shells. She only displaces 2/3 as much, and sports a sole quadruple 533mm torpedo launcher, so despite her fair helping of 20mm and 40mm AAA, she doesn't have the chops to compete at T8. On the other hand, she would be a frightening adversary at T6, where her light cruiser pedigree and superior tonnage would put her design contemporaries at a serious disadvantage in a meta which rewards gunnery and hit points over density of torpedo spread. One could make a case for Haida T6 by way of soft stats fudging, but this is such a famous and desired ship that it would be more appropriate to err on the side of underpoweredness by placing her at T7. I don't like the idea of paying more for this ship, though perhaps if she is deliberately balanced as a T6.5, then we could justify selling this T7 1936 design at a T6 price. Either way I don't want to see Haida's artillery made poor via soft stat fudging in order to bring her to T6. There's always the possibility of using the standard four-turret layout for the eventual Royal Navy Tribal to justify placing them a tier higher than Haida, as well.

 

On the RCN as a separate in-game navy

As much as I'd love to have the RCN in-game, it doesn't make sense. Unless you want to give us a couple lines of tech tree with mostly-copy/paste RN ships, there's no point. Besides, you can always organize a split later on if one of the Commonwealth nations receives enough ships to justify it. Simply duplicate any commanders folks may have and leave one from each pair behind in the Commonwealth "tree" while the other twin moves over to the RCN at that time.

 

Just put the appropriate naval ensign on it and give us an RCN flag we can use, and that would satisfy most of the folks who would care to have a separate Canadian navy anyways.


Edited by Special_Kay, 17 May 2017 - 01:30 AM.

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InvalidKey #38 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:42 AM

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I'm taking my son over to see her this summer (we live about an hour away).  I'm not sure pigeon but if you look through the past threads you'll probably find plenty of people asking for this ship.  Besides, if you do a ship well, regardless of nationality and history and anything else, people will buy it including:

1) collectors who buy anything

2) people who like that particular ship

3) people who like that class, especially if the ship is in the sweet spot of t5-t7 which is presume is where most people spend their time

4) people who buy things for reasons none of us understand but will happily wave around this meme:

 

 

Commonwealth tree seems appropriate, but since Poland has their own ship (sister ship to Haida no less), an opportunity to fly the Red Ensign wouldn't be something many Canadians would say no to.

 

Since we're on the topic, when is WG coming up to Toronto (or Hamilton) for an event?  I hear from reliable sources that TO is a major centre of flotey botes cap'ns.


 

Special_Kay #39 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:44 AM

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View PostInvalidKey, on 16 May 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

Since we're on the topic, when is WG coming up to Toronto (or Hamilton) for an event?  I hear from reliable sources that TO is a major centre of flotey botes cap'ns.

 

Hey! Just because I'm in Toronto doesn't mean it's by choice. I mean, yeah I guess a Toronto event might be neat.

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Adm_Nate_Ellis937 #40 Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:44 AM

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View PostInvalidKey, on 16 May 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

I'm taking my son over to see her this summer (we live about an hour away).

 

And I live in "Friendly Manitoba" and it's like an 18 hour drive for me. :/




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