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Serious discussion about destroyer balance and economics


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Delta7Xx #1 Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:37 AM

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I'm taking a break from my usual shitposting to talk about a serious matter for once. High tier destroyer gameplay can feel very risky and very unrewarding at times. With the presence of radar cruisers, spotting aircraft, fighters, dive bombers and even other destroyers, there are a LOT of dangers present in higher tiers for destroyers. To be clear, I do NOT think that all destroyers should be heavily buffed, but I do think that wargaming should be careful about adding too much counterplay against ships that weren't particularly overpowered to begin with. I don't even necessarily think that destroyers should have average damage equal to that of cruisers and battleships. I am open to the idea of destroyers being played as support ships, spotting enemies, escorting larger ships and firing torpedoes or laying smoke and blazing away with their guns when the opportunity presents itself rather than being purpose built damage dealers. However, even this can be troublesome at times due to the sheer amount of methods for detecting and destroying destroyers in the game's current state.

 

This leads into my second subject: economics. While acting as a picket ship for my allies by spotting enemies and shooting at enemy destroyers can be fun, it rarely gets me large damage numbers unless an opportunity presents itself to use my torpedoes. Spotting and team play are not sufficiently rewarded. This was addressed to some extent a while ago, but a good game in my lo yang usually only nets me around half the credits and xp as a good game in my scharnhorst. Even a good 70k damage plus game in an excellent gunboat like the blyskawica rarely gets me close to the kind of rewards i'll see in a ship like the mogami or gneisenau.

 

When will providing allies with smoke cover be rewarded? Will spotting damage be increased? Are we given any sort of credit for spotting torpedoes? I find that all too often, myself, an ally or an enemy, usually in a destroyer, plays a pivotal role in winning the game that does not involve directly causing massive damage to any enemy in sight, yet they are given only minimal credit for their contributions.

I am actually not against the direction I see wargaming going with destroyer gameplay. While my initial reaction to them removing stealth fire (and greatly hurting destroyer survivability in the process) was mostly negative, now I see that more cautious gameplay isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as we are still given incentive to assist the team in one way or another. Unfortunately, if battle results of same tier destroyers, cruisers and battleships are compared, that incentive is entirely insufficient.


Edited by Delta7Xx, 16 May 2017 - 03:39 AM.


MrEndeavour #2 Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:46 AM

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They're fine. The only problem I see is people playing them like garbage.


Edited by MrEndeavour, 16 May 2017 - 03:46 AM.

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LastoftheFallen #3 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:00 AM

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View PostDelta7Xx, on 15 May 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

When will providing allies with smoke cover be rewarded?

 

​Here's an idea... Wargaming already awards credits and XP for the amount of potential damage fired at a ship, so whenever an allied ship is hiding in a DDs smoke, then half of that potential damage reward should go to the DD.  It wouldn't necessarily be a lot, as ships in smoke don't usually get shot at as much, but it would be an improvement to the reward system for higher tier DDs.

Delta7Xx #4 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:07 AM

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View PostMrEndeavour, on 16 May 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

They're fine. The only problem I see is people playing them like garbage.

 

Well, the second part of your statement is certainly true at times. But that still doesn't change the fact that sometimes having the knowledge and experience to be able to make tactically sound decisions in a destroyer is not enough to overcome aircraft, sonar, other destroyers, or god forbid, actual decent players who know how to turn their ship to avoid torpedoes. Even a good destroyer player will tell you that there are times when all the skill in the world simply won't allow you to do well in a situation. Sure, there are some situations like that for battleships and cruiser, but they are far fewer in number than those for destroyers due to the sheer quantity of counterplay available against them.

Delta7Xx #5 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:12 AM

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View PostLastoftheFallen, on 16 May 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

 

​Here's an idea... Wargaming already awards credits and XP for the amount of potential damage fired at a ship, so whenever an allied ship is hiding in a DDs smoke, then half of that potential damage reward should go to the DD.  It wouldn't necessarily be a lot, as ships in smoke don't usually get shot at as much, but it would be an improvement to the reward system for higher tier DDs.

 

That's not a bad idea, but due to the way current game mechanics work, and simply due to common sense, it would probably be better to reward players for covering allies with smoke based on how many enemies are in the area. Currently, shells can be fired at a target's location without actually firing them at the target, and this is, I believe, what blind shots into smoke are counted as. Additionally, smoke is more useful for the shells it prevents from being fired at a ship rather than the ones whose accuracy it reduces by blocking line of sight.

 

Ideally, a destroyer player would be given maximum credit for using smoke to cover an ally, then spotting an enemy so that the ally can fire on that enemy without fear of accurate return fire.



juanp74 #6 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:34 AM

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I think one good reward will be the time spent contesting a cap, sometimes dds die moving inside contesting a cap for more than 4 or 5 min in smoke trying to torp or covering allies with smoke and spotting for them, in those situations dds don't deal really damage, there is no reward for that an is suppose dd need to do that for the team.

TenguBlade #7 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:41 AM

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View PostLastoftheFallen, on 15 May 2017 - 11:00 PM, said:

​Here's an idea... Wargaming already awards credits and XP for the amount of potential damage fired at a ship, so whenever an allied ship is hiding in a DDs smoke, then half of that potential damage reward should go to the DD.  It wouldn't necessarily be a lot, as ships in smoke don't usually get shot at as much, but it would be an improvement to the reward system for higher tier DDs.

The problem is that very few people fire at smoke to begin with.  It's such a trivially-low amount that you might as well not even bother putting it in.


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Delta7Xx #8 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:42 AM

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View Postjuanp74, on 16 May 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

I think one good reward will be the time spent contesting a cap, sometimes dds die moving inside contesting a cap for more than 4 or 5 min in smoke trying to torp or covering allies with smoke and spotting for them, in those situations dds don't deal really damage, there is no reward for that an is suppose dd need to do that for the team.

 

I agree, some games I have played have been won or lost based on whether or not there was a player contesting a capture point for a period of time, regardless of who, if anyone, ended up capturing it in the end.

Delta7Xx #9 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:43 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 16 May 2017 - 04:41 AM, said:

The problem is that very few people fire at smoke to begin with.  It's such a trivially-low amount that you might as well not even bother putting it in.

 

Three times today i've been blown up by people doing exactly that <.<

torpedoes launched into smoke have did me in more than once, although I usually try to take precautions against this whenever possible. Sonar is half the reason why I'm so eager to go up the german DD line.



Umikami #10 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:47 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 16 May 2017 - 04:41 AM, said:

The problem is that very few people fire at smoke to begin with.  It's such a trivially-low amount that you might as well not even bother putting it in.

 

you are, of course, correct in your statement that few players fire into smoke ...

with their guns ...

however ...

torpedoes may be a horse of a different color, eh Tengu?

(like Delta7Xx stated in the post where he quoted you just as I did; I rest my case)

 


Edited by Umikami, 16 May 2017 - 04:50 AM.


Pulicat #11 Posted 16 May 2017 - 04:48 AM

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It would be nice if you got more xp for spotting damage, and maybe some for having other ships using your smoke.

 


TenguBlade #12 Posted 16 May 2017 - 06:34 AM

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View PostUmikami, on 15 May 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

torpedoes may be a horse of a different color, eh Tengu?

(like Delta7Xx stated in the post where he quoted you just as I did; I rest my case)

And how would you reward people without creating a loophole?  If some guy smokes, then radar flushes him and his teammates out of it before torps come zooming into the now-empty smoke, he shouldn't get any credit for that.  Not to mention smoke makes torpedoes more dangerous due to dropping their acquisition range down to a flat 0.5km max - you'd be making it harder for allies to avoid fish without having a scout plane or hydro to screen for torpedoes themselves.


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Capt_Mexib #13 Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:54 AM

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View PostDelta7Xx, on 15 May 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

I'm taking a break from my usual shitposting to talk about a serious matter for once. High tier destroyer gameplay can feel very risky and very unrewarding at times. With the presence of radar cruisers, spotting aircraft, fighters, dive bombers and even other destroyers, there are a LOT of dangers present in higher tiers for destroyers. To be clear, I do NOT think that all destroyers should be heavily buffed, but I do think that wargaming should be careful about adding too much counterplay against ships that weren't particularly overpowered to begin with. I don't even necessarily think that destroyers should have average damage equal to that of cruisers and battleships. I am open to the idea of destroyers being played as support ships, spotting enemies, escorting larger ships and firing torpedoes or laying smoke and blazing away with their guns when the opportunity presents itself rather than being purpose built damage dealers. However, even this can be troublesome at times due to the sheer amount of methods for detecting and destroying destroyers in the game's current state.

 

This leads into my second subject: economics. While acting as a picket ship for my allies by spotting enemies and shooting at enemy destroyers can be fun, it rarely gets me large damage numbers unless an opportunity presents itself to use my torpedoes. Spotting and team play are not sufficiently rewarded. This was addressed to some extent a while ago, but a good game in my lo yang usually only nets me around half the credits and xp as a good game in my scharnhorst. Even a good 70k damage plus game in an excellent gunboat like the blyskawica rarely gets me close to the kind of rewards i'll see in a ship like the mogami or gneisenau.

 

When will providing allies with smoke cover be rewarded? Will spotting damage be increased? Are we given any sort of credit for spotting torpedoes? I find that all too often, myself, an ally or an enemy, usually in a destroyer, plays a pivotal role in winning the game that does not involve directly causing massive damage to any enemy in sight, yet they are given only minimal credit for their contributions.

I am actually not against the direction I see wargaming going with destroyer gameplay. While my initial reaction to them removing stealth fire (and greatly hurting destroyer survivability in the process) was mostly negative, now I see that more cautious gameplay isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as we are still given incentive to assist the team in one way or another. Unfortunately, if battle results of same tier destroyers, cruisers and battleships are compared, that incentive is entirely insufficient.

 

It's kind of funny in a way. Two of the recent DD "nerf's" have actually buff'd my Shimakaze. RDF and the removal of stealth firing in open water.

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Umikami #14 Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:39 PM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 16 May 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

And how would you reward people without creating a loophole?  If some guy smokes, then radar flushes him and his teammates out of it before torps come zooming into the now-empty smoke, he shouldn't get any credit for that.  Not to mention smoke makes torpedoes more dangerous due to dropping their acquisition range down to a flat 0.5km max - you'd be making it harder for allies to avoid fish without having a scout plane or hydro to screen for torpedoes themselves.

 

That is a good question.

IMHO (and ONLY my HO!) I think players who smoke for team mates should get credit for the number of enemy ships whose detection is interrupted by the smoke. If I am being targeted by three enemy ships, and you cover me with your smoke, you should get points for every ship whose detection you voided; anything less is unfair.

And, Yes; smoke makes torps dangerous as hell.

The answer may be for the game to recognize the difference between guns and torps, and reward for that, also.


 

You and I both know there are a multitude of activities happening in every match that do not involve firing at the enemy but still contribute significantly to overall team success. Spotting, smoking, and any related support activity needs to be rewarded so players in ships WoW has decided are support ships can enjoy the game and not go find something else to play.


 

Yeah, everybody should be rewarded for contributing to a team victory, in whatever way they contribute.



chewonit #15 Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:55 PM

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View PostCapt_Mexib, on 16 May 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

 

An angel gets its wings every time a Khabarov is deleted. 

Amen to that! 


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Spyde #16 Posted 16 May 2017 - 07:15 PM

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View PostLastoftheFallen, on 15 May 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

 

​Here's an idea... Wargaming already awards credits and XP for the amount of potential damage fired at a ship, so whenever an allied ship is hiding in a DDs smoke, then half of that potential damage reward should go to the DD.  It wouldn't necessarily be a lot, as ships in smoke don't usually get shot at as much, but it would be an improvement to the reward system for higher tier DDs.

 

Pretty sure Potential Damage is dmg aimed at you.

 

dmg off spot is another stat.


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TenguBlade #17 Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:15 PM

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View PostUmikami, on 16 May 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

You and I both know there are a multitude of activities happening in every match that do not involve firing at the enemy but still contribute significantly to overall team success. Spotting, smoking, and any related support activity needs to be rewarded so players in ships WoW has decided are support ships can enjoy the game and not go find something else to play.


 

Yeah, everybody should be rewarded for contributing to a team victory, in whatever way they contribute.

I doubt anyone on here thinks otherwise, and for that matter St. Petersburg probably doesn't either, but implementing a system that does so fairly and properly is a far cry from thinking it should exist.


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attackcamel #18 Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:47 PM

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My 2 cents, spotting damage alone would boost DD numbers quite a bit. Smoking your team would mean you get far more opportunities to accrue that spotting damage (you being their eyes after all!) I know the game tracks tge numbers, you can see it post battle. I would bet wargaming is eventually going to do something with those numbers. They just want a big sample size before making that kind of change.




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