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"T4 CVs Are Ruined Without Alt-attack"


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TenguBlade #1 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:09 PM

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Mind you, the reason I'm pink is because the auto-drop torpedo distance caused me to miss a few torps (one of which detonated an inattentive ally), so I'm not in favor of them being removed, nor was I ever.

 

But the fundamental strategy of racking up damage in a CV stays the same whether your attack methods differ.  DoT stacking.  Attacking lone/weak-AA ships.  Taking the route that exposes your planes to AA for the least amount of time.  Dropping from angles that result in a maximum number of hits.  And this doesn't even get into fighter microing - which admittedly I'm bad at, I was just lucky the enemy CV had stock fighters as well in both matches.

 

If a mediocre CV player with a 1-point captain can do this with stock planes, it's obviously not the end of the world for you clubbers sticking 19-pointers in Langleys and Hoshos.

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Dumb replay to add to this:

https://wowreplays.c...de-Langley-Ring


Edited by TenguBlade, 08 May 2017 - 09:02 PM.

Don't know if you have a dark sense of humor?  If you laugh at this, you do.

IJN: Yamato, Amagi, Ibuki, Mogami, Shokaku, Hiryu, Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Kamikaze R, Katori, MikasaKongō, Myōkō, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro, TakaoSouthern Dragon

USN: Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, New Orleans, Pensacola, Cleveland, Langley/Bogue, Farragut

European Navies: Gnevny, Shchors, Nürnberg/Yorck, Bayern, Fiji, Blyskawica (Gift from Compassghost), Scharnhorst (First and only bought), Admiral Graf Spee


Kombat_W0MBAT #2 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:14 PM

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I'm not sure fighting bots is a reliable litmus test... but I also don't play CVs, 

Flashtirade #3 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:28 PM

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I know you left PvP for personal reasons, but showing good matches vs bots is not very indicative of the CV experience vs players. Usually.



TenguBlade #4 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:38 PM

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View PostFlashtirade, on 08 May 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

I know you left PvP for personal reasons, but showing good matches vs bots is not very indicative of the CV experience vs players. Usually.

As I acknowledged, fighters would be more effective in PvP because the enemy CV driver wouldn't be idiotic.  But without alt-attacks, all a CV driver can do is left-click, and bots do that already - the difference would come from positioning.  Versus bots in T4 and T5 CVs is a much more valid case study for looking at CV versus CV now, since bots never alt-attack.

 

If that one idiot Wyoming I detonated with a stray torpedo is any indication, human players at those tiers aren't any more likely to take evasive action against a carrier airstrike than a bot.  I've seen bots attempt standard evasive maneuvers against TBs before (i.e. not using throttle - very few average players will for whatever reason), but again without manual drops, the requirement of dodging in advance (which many players don't do anyways judging by the complaints here) disappears because of the absurd auto-drop spacing.


Edited by TenguBlade, 08 May 2017 - 08:43 PM.

Don't know if you have a dark sense of humor?  If you laugh at this, you do.

IJN: Yamato, Amagi, Ibuki, Mogami, Shokaku, Hiryu, Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Kamikaze R, Katori, MikasaKongō, Myōkō, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro, TakaoSouthern Dragon

USN: Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, New Orleans, Pensacola, Cleveland, Langley/Bogue, Farragut

European Navies: Gnevny, Shchors, Nürnberg/Yorck, Bayern, Fiji, Blyskawica (Gift from Compassghost), Scharnhorst (First and only bought), Admiral Graf Spee


LadyJess #5 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:39 PM

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WG needs to bring back the ALT for the tier 4 & 5 CVs. Removing this has forced me to use the Saipan to practice the manual attacks. This has caused some issues with some players ( i really don't care, WG forced this issue ) . I run in both live and bot mode to practice manual attacks.

ALT function needs to be restored.



Apewar #6 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:57 PM

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i wish they would allow alt attack for fighters only at least. it would help a little against the damn AS bogue

snowshrederr #7 Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:59 PM

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T4 CV's were ridiculous with ALT-attacks, so I am and will always be in favor of them not getting the manual drops back. I don't know why T5 CV's lost their manual drops as they were never really a problem.

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DerKrampus #8 Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:02 PM

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I wouldn't mind T4 and 5 CVs getting alt-drops back.

IF T4 and 5 cruisers gain the use of defensive fire to counter them.  Barring the Texas, nothing in those tiers can even come close to combating a CV.

 


SluggerJackson #9 Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:05 PM

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I found tier V CVs very difficult to play without the Alt-Attack option.  I free XPd to the tier VI as quickly as I could. 

TenguBlade #10 Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:16 PM

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View Postsnowshrederr, on 08 May 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

T4 CV's were ridiculous with ALT-attacks, so I am and will always be in favor of them not getting the manual drops back. I don't know why T5 CV's lost their manual drops as they were never really a problem.

Even at T4 it was a nation-specific problem.  Against the USN, the alt-attacks were only really a problem for people who didn't know that turning into torpedoes screws manual drops up by causing them to strike before arming.  Langley's DBs are pathetic in damage and spread, and the manual-drop bubble didn't help much.  Hosho's torpedo bombers are the real issue.


Edited by TenguBlade, 08 May 2017 - 09:16 PM.

Don't know if you have a dark sense of humor?  If you laugh at this, you do.

IJN: Yamato, Amagi, Ibuki, Mogami, Shokaku, Hiryu, Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Kamikaze R, Katori, MikasaKongō, Myōkō, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro, TakaoSouthern Dragon

USN: Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, New Orleans, Pensacola, Cleveland, Langley/Bogue, Farragut

European Navies: Gnevny, Shchors, Nürnberg/Yorck, Bayern, Fiji, Blyskawica (Gift from Compassghost), Scharnhorst (First and only bought), Admiral Graf Spee


CorradoG60 #11 Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:35 PM

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I can see the tier 4's losing the manual drop and strafe but the tier 5's should have it back.

 

Playing my Zuiho without it is painful. But then again I only play CV's for the missions.



Estimated_Prophet #12 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:12 PM

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Haven't really had any issues without manual attack; and have adapted well enough to normal attack.

 

Thing I like about the T4-5 CV changes? No more strafe; don't care if it was needed to stop bomber mobs or not; it was tripe before, now it's tripe in two fewer tiers.

 

Thing I hate about the T4-5 CV changes? Now it's nearly impossible to stomp a roach stop a destroyer from getting close and sinking a Langley or Bogue because it's extremely difficult to drop torps close enough to beat the rudder shift, (unless the driver is an idiot.) Hosho and Zuiho can at least still try with a good cross-drop.


Edited by Estimated_Prophet, 08 May 2017 - 10:13 PM.

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HellaCopterRescue #13 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:21 PM

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Been playing the T4 IJN Hosho and I gotta say it really hasn't bothered me that much. I go for the slower ships first and do cross drops from the TB so I am guaranteed at least one or two torp hits, do that again on another drop and bam. Mind you I play PvP and only get half of what you listed.

Zim_Xero #14 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:28 PM

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I suggest that instead of ALT-attack, they develop an automatic  'close drop'  option.  This would release at just a little more than minimum distance, but the aircraft would take double damage to AA while inside the drop bubble.

Edited by Zim_Xero, 08 May 2017 - 10:29 PM.

Tier V -   Konig   Kongo   Furutaka   Zuiho   Texas   Marbelhead   Okhotnik   Kamikaze   

Tier VI -  Budyonny   Aoba   Leander   Arizona   Anshan   Dunkerque   Graf Spee   Warspite

Tier VII - Algerie   Shiratsuyu   Fiji   Saipan   Leningrad   Scharnhorst   Atlanta   Hood   Belfast   Blyskawica

Tier VIII+  Z-46   Grozovoi   Khabarovsk   Shokaku   Bismarck   Missouri   Atago   Alabama   Tirpitz   Lo Yang   Mikhail Kutuzov


WanderingGhost #15 Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:54 PM

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Problem is, ALT attacks have screwed the balance up as it is. The reason AA was buffed to insane levels - manual drops, why BB's got a bit of a maneuvering buff way back - manual drops and torps in general, it causes more problems than does anything good, and you don't need it at any level to deal, 80, 90, 100k damage against the enemy, and that's live enemies that can move in random not bots.And anyone with the most basic understanding of manual drops could drop so turning in still hits, same as with auto drops, the difference is auto drop they have a better chance of minimizing damage, which they should get. I'm a CV player that can use manual drops and one of the loudest they are OP as hell, why I try to not use them.

 

I'd argue anyone that says CV's are ruined, beyond the fact Wargaming needs to re-balance fighters to actually be balanced so it comes down to picking your fights, not USN or bust, is the group without skill that they can't hit with a standard cross drop with IJN or USN TB's at all. Some tweaks are needed to DB's, make the USN ones at least a bit more accurate, but getting rid of it at all tiers is a far better option in regards to the attack planes. 9x easier to balance without it, and changes the skill gap and removes the one thing that can make CV's stupidly OP.

 

Fighters is a slightly different issue. Strafe as it is needs to go, I don't care how you try justifying it with "oh you can dodge it" blah, blah because there's 90 different things to screw you out of that, an auto delete mechanic that the player is at least 80% in control of is [edited], and that's the low estimate. Really closer to 90+. Especially that it can auto delete 30+ planes with 4-7 planes. Even detonations are some major RNG with what, 3 or 4 methods of reducing that chance? definitely at least 2 between the ship upgrade and the flag. Aside from dodge, angle, etc. Strafe as it is is no different than the old nuke kill streak in CoD back in the day that was despised or the glitch that was on I believe overgrowth in the original Modern Warfare that took some skill to get into but once you did were basically untouchable. It's really the same category of should not exist in a game. It's the kind of thing that when I was in "Intro to game and simulation design" they told us to not put in.

 

This needs to be reworked to a debuff to make bombers scatter as they launch an attack, panicking them all, and maybe taking a couple out, and I mean a couple, not half a dozen or more, with maintaining the ability we have now to strafe out of fighter lock to better try and fight where we may have the advantage, or something similar. Make it more a tactical use, not default, especially with how overbuffed USN fighters in particular are in the ammo department that they can use it 4,5,6 times before rearming.

 

I will agree that HOW they implemented was terrible - despite higher tier fighters USN fighters walk all over IJN's, tier 5 is severely handicapped if it has to face tier 6 carriers regardless that they have one on their team to fight it, new players can't learn to abuse broken mechanics that will be overly exploited above tier 4 and 5. But as a concept, while it still is not perfect - need a way to attack ships in smoke, obviously fighter balance, AA changes, and even then may need a slight nerf in torpedo damage, this is the track Wargaming needs to go. ALT attacks of both types only favour experienced CV players, to the detriment of newer players and players of other ship classes, and really the game as a whole. Hopefully the rework addresses the issues on both sides of CV's. But like I said as everyone went all chicken little over the removal in regards to damage dealing, it's not that big a deal unless your aim sucks, or RNG screws you on DB's. 



Umikami #16 Posted 08 May 2017 - 11:18 PM

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View PostKombat_W0MBAT, on 08 May 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

I'm not sure fighting bots is a reliable litmus test... but I also don't play CVs,

 

Actually, I have read complaints in the Forum which state the exact opposite; that the AI can control the CV UI much better than any human can, making games against a bot CV very exciting. I do NOT know this from personal experience; the only CV I ever played regularly was a Bogue I used to do shoot down X number of aircraft missions with. But I have read that bot CV's are not pushovers.

 

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View PostEstimated_Prophet, on 08 May 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Thing I hate about the T4-5 CV changes? Now it's nearly impossible to stomp a roach stop a destroyer from getting close and sinking a Langley or Bogue because it's extremely difficult to drop torps close enough to beat the rudder shift, (unless the driver is an idiot.) Hosho and Zuiho can at least still try with a good cross-drop.

 

Carriers, as a class of ships, need their secondaries buffed a bit. for ships with some of the best AA in the game they have remarkably weak secondary fire.

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View PostDerKrampus, on 08 May 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind T4 and 5 CVs getting alt-drops back.


IF T4 and 5 cruisers gain the use of defensive fire to counter them.  Barring the Texas, nothing in those tiers can even come close to combating a CV.
 

 

My Yubari and I would disagree with that statement, Sir.


 

 

 



DerKrampus #17 Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:28 AM

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View PostUmikami, on 08 May 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

My Yubari and I would disagree with that statement, Sir.

No one plays the Yubari.  It doesn't count.


 


TenguBlade #18 Posted 09 May 2017 - 03:51 AM

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View PostUmikami, on 08 May 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Actually, I have read complaints in the Forum which state the exact opposite; that the AI can control the CV UI much better than any human can, making games against a bot CV very exciting. I do NOT know this from personal experience; the only CV I ever played regularly was a Bogue I used to do shoot down X number of aircraft missions with. But I have read that bot CV's are not pushovers.

 

Carriers, as a class of ships, need their secondaries buffed a bit. for ships with some of the best AA in the game they have remarkably weak secondary fire.

If you don't out-position bot CVs, they are absolutely hard to deal with.  However, while they manage aircraft squadrons well, and almost inhumanly well, they don't use alt-attacks, group their planes up, or do any number of other strategies even a mediocre CV driver like myself has managed to learn if not pick up (not to mention they have the typical [edited] target prioritization of bots).  The end result is that their effectiveness is heavily neutered if the player CV driver has any idea of what he's doing.  I did have a few matches where a fully-upgraded bot Langley stomped all over my entire hangar of stock planes with one squad of T4 fighters without rearming once, but those are a result of the stock grind, not bot effectiveness.  Bot CVs are better than the people you see being complained about, by far, but any decent CV driver is more than a match for them.

 

The problem with CVs receiving additional self-defense capability is that they're supposed to be punished heavily for being spotted, since they're never supposed to be seen unless either the driver screwed up, you're losing, or someone slipped through the gaps (in which case, you deserve to die for not spotting him since the CV is the team's best scout).  I'm more in favor of just buffing their concealment a bit, especially the USN ones.


Don't know if you have a dark sense of humor?  If you laugh at this, you do.

IJN: Yamato, Amagi, Ibuki, Mogami, Shokaku, Hiryu, Akatsuki, Shiratsuyu, Kamikaze R, Katori, MikasaKongō, Myōkō, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro, TakaoSouthern Dragon

USN: Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, New Orleans, Pensacola, Cleveland, Langley/Bogue, Farragut

European Navies: Gnevny, Shchors, Nürnberg/Yorck, Bayern, Fiji, Blyskawica (Gift from Compassghost), Scharnhorst (First and only bought), Admiral Graf Spee


Estimated_Prophet #19 Posted 09 May 2017 - 02:19 PM

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View PostWanderingGhost, on 08 May 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

ALT attacks of both types only favour experienced CV players, to the detriment of newer players and players of other ship classes, and really the game as a whole. Hopefully the rework addresses the issues on both sides of CV's. But like I said as everyone went all chicken little over the removal in regards to damage dealing, it's not that big a deal unless your aim sucks, or RNG screws you on DB's. 

 

Mybe a new Level 4 skill that competes with Air Supremacy? Call it 'Ace Pilots' or 'Close Attack' or some such. Gives you a dogfight bonus, or lets you get in closer with dive bomb and torpedo attacks without manual drop. Which do you want then? Extra aircraft or the ability to have a closer, tighter autodrop attack?

 

If you really want to restrict such a skill; make it a CV exclusive Level 5 skill, which means if you wanted close attack you'll have to give up a lot of lower level skills to afford it.


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Azarath_Deathwing #20 Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:40 PM

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View PostEstimated_Prophet, on 09 May 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

 

Mybe a new Level 4 skill that competes with Air Supremacy? Call it 'Ace Pilots' or 'Close Attack' or some such. Gives you a dogfight bonus, or lets you get in closer with dive bomb and torpedo attacks without manual drop. Which do you want then? Extra aircraft or the ability to have a closer, tighter autodrop attack?

 

If you really want to restrict such a skill; make it a CV exclusive Level 5 skill, which means if you wanted close attack you'll have to give up a lot of lower level skills to afford it.

 

Yeah, i don't see WG adding in 5-pt captain skills unique for every class. The sheer mayhem that would be caused by something along those lines would almost require there to be more captain points, which Wg has said will not happen.

I haven't really gone back to t4 CV in, well... ages. T5? I run an AS Bogue just to annoy the crap out of any other CV on the enemy team... and he has a 15pt captain just for kicks. My biggest issue with CVs is the sheer intensity of AA power at t8 and above. I can lose an entire strike group (all strike craft) on my Shokaku or Essex if I am not careful. Strafe is a bit OP, yes. But strafe is nothing compared to lapsing a moment in concentration and losing all of your aircraft due to a DM having 7.2km range and popping DF while you are using your fighters to strafe enemy planes elsewhere. Happens occasionally... and it insane. But I take it as part of the game. 

 






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