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How could carriers be made to be more fun?


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BigJohnsonLogan #21 Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:33 PM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 04 May 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

lower skill ceiling

A single ship should not be able to influence the outcome of a match so heavily.

 

^ Exactly this

 

CV Class is overpowered, Wargaming knows it but doesn't want to talk about it. IJN CV is stupid overpowered right now.

 

CV is the same kind of Sky Cancer the SPG class is in World Of Tanks, which is why I quit that game,

 

Play a REAL ship class.


Edited by BigJohnsonLogan, 18 May 2017 - 01:10 AM.


old_radagast #22 Posted 19 May 2017 - 12:33 PM

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Eh... I've played up to tier 7 regularly, and CV's aren't that common, and when they do show up, they are rarely that relevant. I'm actually impressed when one of them sinks a ship, and sinking 2 is shocking. Now, maybe the game changes radically in the last few tiers, and CV's are suddenly devastating, but I doubt it. And even if that does happen, that means they are glorified paperweights for most of the game. 

 

I've played up to the tier 6 Independence, which I rarely use anymore since it's torture to play. My planes get torn apart by AAA or AS load enemy carriers, and I'm lucky if I do much of anything all match. Sure, I'll shoot down some planes, hit a few ships with bombs and torps, but I feel totally irrelevant most of the time. And that's the problem, IMHO.

 

From the opinion of a mid-skill carrier player in mid-tiers, CV's take far more micro-management skills to play, and then everything hinges on those long seconds when you're on final approach to the target. If anything goes wrong - which often happens - your attack is rendered nearly worthless, you probably lose a bunch of planes, and you sit around twiddling your thumbs waiting for what's left of your squad to fly back, reload, and try again. Meanwhile, with every other class I can stay on station, reload, and quickly try again. No other class has as much down-time as CV's, and yet you're stuck doing so much during the downtime - chasing targets, trying to avoid having your planes torn apart, etc. It's a class of regular disappointments and bad surprises: Your full dove bomber squadron managed to miss a slow BB, your planes on final approach get jumped by fighters that came out of nowhere. You lose lots of planes on an attack run and barely get a single hit in, and so on.

 

Now, I'm not saying they need a straight-up power buff because of the obvious problems with that, but they need to be more fun and engaging in a good way, not in a micro-manage everything because one slip up or bad turn of fate wrecks you sort of way. Finally, I see no evidence CV's are overpowered, and they are easily the most frustrating class to play, where you spend lots of time doing "nothing" but waiting to be disappointed.


Edited by old_radagast, 19 May 2017 - 12:34 PM.


Carrier_Lexington #23 Posted 19 May 2017 - 02:00 PM

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View Postold_radagast, on 19 May 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

Eh... I've played up to tier 7 regularly, and CV's aren't that common, and when they do show up, they are rarely that relevant. I'm actually impressed when one of them sinks a ship, and sinking 2 is shocking. Now, maybe the game changes radically in the last few tiers, and CV's are suddenly devastating, but I doubt it. And even if that does happen, that means they are glorified paperweights for most of the game. 

 

I've played up to the tier 6 Independence, which I rarely use anymore since it's torture to play. My planes get torn apart by AAA or AS load enemy carriers, and I'm lucky if I do much of anything all match. Sure, I'll shoot down some planes, hit a few ships with bombs and torps, but I feel totally irrelevant most of the time. And that's the problem, IMHO.

 

From the opinion of a mid-skill carrier player in mid-tiers, CV's take far more micro-management skills to play, and then everything hinges on those long seconds when you're on final approach to the target. If anything goes wrong - which often happens - your attack is rendered nearly worthless, you probably lose a bunch of planes, and you sit around twiddling your thumbs waiting for what's left of your squad to fly back, reload, and try again. Meanwhile, with every other class I can stay on station, reload, and quickly try again. No other class has as much down-time as CV's, and yet you're stuck doing so much during the downtime - chasing targets, trying to avoid having your planes torn apart, etc. It's a class of regular disappointments and bad surprises: Your full dove bomber squadron managed to miss a slow BB, your planes on final approach get jumped by fighters that came out of nowhere. You lose lots of planes on an attack run and barely get a single hit in, and so on.

 

Now, I'm not saying they need a straight-up power buff because of the obvious problems with that, but they need to be more fun and engaging in a good way, not in a micro-manage everything because one slip up or bad turn of fate wrecks you sort of way. Finally, I see no evidence CV's are overpowered, and they are easily the most frustrating class to play, where you spend lots of time doing "nothing" but waiting to be disappointed.


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H_Guderinyan #24 Posted 21 May 2017 - 02:03 AM

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There are two things that happen with CVs. Someone begrudgingly works with the system and figures out the gamey arcade mechanics and becomes a God. A skilled player with a Hosho or with a Taiho, he's gonna wreck people. Obviously a bad player won't even matter. But there's no 'middle ground'. To make matters worse you decided your role before combat. Enemy has a lot of scout planes? back in NF you could blind the enemy team by taking out scouts. HUGE help. here? Worthless. The scouts stay within the AA bubble of adjacent ships, and you get nothing for it, while making your fighters vulnerable to enemy fighters.

The above post makes an excellent point. You spend several minutes orchestrating an attack, and when, not if, something goes wrong, you just wasted half the round - and half of our aircraft in some cases. If you screw up as a BB? DAMAGE CONTROL, REPAIR. hell, RNG gives you a few Citadels and your enemy disappears. They essentially sling a full flight of DBs at targets every 20 seconds without having to worry about enemy fighters.

You know what they need? Planes to not instantly die. So you can make a run on a cruiser, and he pops his AA ability. Instead of losing 4/4 planes, maybe you lose 1 and 2 are damaged and need to regroup. and only one gets the attack off.
Have a stat that is the pilot's mental state. We somewhat have this in game. They pop their AA or fighters chase them and they jsut plain all die. Instead, gives planes more HP. For arguements sake, 60-80% more. And instead of dying after losing their current HP value, they "Panic" and are unable to attack. Much like how Turrets can be damaged and repaired, planes obviously can't repair in air so we can justify this as the pilot breaking under strain. They break off the attack instead of all dying instantly. You'd gain a new way to balance, give CVs some Quality-of-Life improvements, yet not actually make them much more deadly. The Great CV captains won't get as much use out of this, as much as the casual joe would. Ship borne AA would be better at panicking a pilot, while fighters would be hands down the best way to slaughter them in the traditional manner.

Give CV captains more chances to recover mistakes. DDs and some CLs have smoke. BBs have a variety of repair mechanisms. A good CV strike can tip a match, as it was in history. But there's simply no room for error with the planes. Only have 1-2 flights of fighters? Oh wait the enemy caught yours, now just go lose half of them just to escape. You strafed his bombers and got them all? Well he strafed your fighters getting out of their strafe and now you're out of fighters. The number of planes a CV has is all the flex room it has. yet it is fixed. Can't even have same-nation aircraft go onto an allied CV when one is sunk. They didn't all just bail into the sea when their carrier went down. They tried to make it to a land based airfield or another carrier when they could.

There are so many options if the developers picked up a book and looked at how carriers operated.

 

BigJohnsonLogan #25 Posted 21 May 2017 - 02:17 AM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 19 May 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

 

Seeing them remove the carrier class, that would be worth an upvote.

 

View PostH_Guderinyan, on 21 May 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:



Give CV captains more chances to recover mistakes. DDs and some CLs have smoke. BBs have a variety of repair mechanisms. A good CV strike can tip a match, as it was in history. But there's simply no room for error with the planes. Only have 1-2 flights of fighters? Oh wait the enemy caught yours, now just go lose half of them just to escape. You strafed his bombers and got them all? Well he strafed your fighters getting out of their strafe and now you're out of fighters. The number of planes a CV has is all the flex room it has. yet it is fixed. Can't even have same-nation aircraft go onto an allied CV when one is sunk. They didn't all just bail into the sea when their carrier went down. They tried to make it to a land based airfield or another carrier when they could.

There are so many options if the developers picked up a book and looked at how carriers operated.

 

 

How is it I just got out of a Tier X match in my Shimakaze where the enemy Tier 9 Essex just ambushed me with every single squadron at the start of the match. I got spotted by fighters at cap point A, torpedoed in my smoke by his TB squadron then chased by 3 squadrons of DB who hammered me until I burned to death. I was dead in first 3 minutes of match. That was so "fun and engaging" for me at the expense of some inbred [edited]grinding the US CV line for this inbred [edited]Carrier weekend event.

 

F carriers !!!


Edited by BigJohnsonLogan, 21 May 2017 - 02:30 AM.


Carrier_Lexington #26 Posted 21 May 2017 - 01:33 PM

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View PostBigJohnsonLogan, on 20 May 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

 

Seeing them remove the carrier class, that would be worth an upvote.

 

 

How is it I just got out of a Tier X match in my Shimakaze where the enemy Tier 9 Essex just ambushed me with every single squadron at the start of the match. I got spotted by fighters at cap point A, torpedoed in my smoke by his TB squadron then chased by 3 squadrons of DB who hammered me until I burned to death. I was dead in first 3 minutes of match. That was so "fun and engaging" for me at the expense of some inbred [edited]grinding the US CV line for this inbred [edited]Carrier weekend event.

 

F carriers !!!

 

Ah, to cleanse the world of this stupidity.

 


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Palladia #27 Posted 21 May 2017 - 05:10 PM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 21 May 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

Ah, to cleanse the world of this stupidity.

 

 

Unfortunately we don't have that option.  But we at least have an ignore option so we only have to see it once.

Carrier_Lexington #28 Posted 21 May 2017 - 07:27 PM

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View PostBigJohnsonLogan, on 20 May 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

 

Seeing them remove the carrier class, that would be worth an upvote.

 

 

How is it I just got out of a Tier X match in my Shimakaze where the enemy Tier 9 Essex just ambushed me with every single squadron at the start of the match. I got spotted by fighters at cap point A, torpedoed in my smoke by his TB squadron then chased by 3 squadrons of DB who hammered me until I burned to death. I was dead in first 3 minutes of match. That was so "fun and engaging" for me at the expense of some inbred [edited]grinding the US CV line for this inbred [edited]Carrier weekend event.

 

F carriers !!!

 

I wonder why?

 


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lron_Dog_of_Jutland #29 Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:16 PM

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Make it Battlestations Pacific...?

Taylor3006 #30 Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:22 PM

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The one thing that would make CVs more enjoyable to me would be the ability to combine squadrons of the same plane for one "super squadron". I tend to use my fighters on the Saipan to engage the same target, would be nice not to have to chose #2 and #3 to go to the same spot on the map or engage the same target. Would make it less fiddly. Same thing with IJN ships with multiple squadrons of torp planes or bombers. 

Edited by Taylor3006, 21 May 2017 - 09:22 PM.


crzyhawk #31 Posted 21 May 2017 - 09:35 PM

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Any answer that doesn't start with squadron normalization is wrong.


Minsten #32 Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:45 PM

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For me I wish you had more customisation of what you bring into the battle.  I hate being limited to certain builds that wargaming has decided is mandatory.  So you get that awkward issue, especially with American carriers where you either have a crudload of fighters and when you run out of targets you got nothing to do or you have zero fighters and have to hope the enemy carrier didn't go fighter build or else you're going to have an incredibly boring game as well.  It would make it more tactical and allow for a greater flexibility in tactics.

 

Also the fighter on fighter combat is utterly unengaging and the most RNG heavy thing.  Two fighter groups collide and if one is just 1 tier higher it decimates the opponents fighters or if they are same tier you can get a close fight or randomly a one sided fight with no way of influencing it without it being about sheer numbers/strafes. 



Palladia #33 Posted 23 May 2017 - 12:51 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 21 May 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

Any answer that doesn't start with squadron normalization is wrong.

 

Its weird.  Had the IJN had half sized squadrons of three to the USN's six then that would have been more easily balanced. Even just having them both have 5 planes per squadron and giving each side flavor would have made more sense.  Instead they went with this weird six four that never really works out.  Air superiority really doesn't help the mix either.

Chimera2 #34 Posted 24 May 2017 - 07:45 PM

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View PostBigJohnsonLogan, on 17 May 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

 

^ Exactly this

 

CV Class is overpowered, Wargaming knows it but doesn't want to talk about it. IJN CV is stupid overpowered right now.

 

CV is the same kind of Sky Cancer the SPG class is in World Of Tanks, which is why I quit that game,

 

Play a REAL ship class.

The problem with CVs are people like this. Some people just hate the fact that they are in the game period and would probably still complain even if their torpedoes and bombs did 1 hp point of damage. There are a lot of people who pick ships with poor AA, don't do anything to improve said AA, leave the AA cover of their teammates, and cry when a CV damages them. I can't tell you how many times people in Khabs I've seen being torped by carriers and then asking the server to report the  CV playing a cheap ship without a hint of irony. That's why wargaming doesn't touch carriers because people like this keep complaining if they change them in any way that isn't a nerf. 

 

I don't even play carriers that much anymore but I can certainly see why they are in the game.

 



champflyer #35 Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:13 PM

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What could make carriers more fun? One answer is non CV players like me and others being more understanding and kinder to those who play the most difficult, and frustrating type of ship in this game. I've only played the Hosho a handful of times in Co-Op games, and hated it, because even at that low tier in Co-Op I was called an idiot, and berated for my mistakes.

 

Of course when you play your first CV for the first couple of times, you will be a noob, and make plenty of mistakes early on. This is why I played my first CV in Co-Op, because I thought that's where the low skill greenhorns go to train, and get better. I didn't know I had to be an expert CV captain my first time out in a CV, and in a low tier Co-Op game at that. 

 

I really feel bad for all the CV players on the teams I'm on who are totally blamed for the team losing, when there were plenty of dumb mistakes made by everyone else on my team, including me. For those who don't play CVs, be kind to your CV captain, as that will go a long way in making his or her gaming experience more enjoyable, until WG gets off their rear, and makes a real effort to fix CV play.


Edited by champflyer, 27 May 2017 - 04:14 PM.


Carrier_Lexington #36 Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:20 PM

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View Postchampflyer, on 27 May 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

What could make carriers more fun? One answer is non CV players like me and others being more understanding and kinder to those who play the most difficult, and frustrating type of ship in this game. I've only played the Hosho a handful of times in Co-Op games, and hated it, because even at that low tier in Co-Op I was called an idiot, and berated for my mistakes.

 

Of course when you play your first CV for the first couple of times, you will be a noob, and make plenty of mistakes early on. This is why I played my first CV in Co-Op, because I thought that's where the low skill greenhorns go to train, and get better. I didn't know I had to be an expert CV captain my first time out in a CV, and in a low tier Co-Op game at that. 

 

I really feel bad for all the CV players on the teams I'm on who are totally blamed for the team losing, when there were plenty of dumb mistakes made by everyone else on my team, including me. For those who don't play CVs, be kind to your CV captain, as that will go a long way in making his or her gaming experience more enjoyable, until WG gets off their rear, and makes a real effort to fix CV play.

 

+1

+1

+1

... +>9000


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champflyer #37 Posted 27 May 2017 - 05:03 PM

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View PostBigJohnsonLogan, on 21 May 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

 

Seeing them remove the carrier class, that would be worth an upvote.

 

 

How is it I just got out of a Tier X match in my Shimakaze where the enemy Tier 9 Essex just ambushed me with every single squadron at the start of the match. I got spotted by fighters at cap point A, torpedoed in my smoke by his TB squadron then chased by 3 squadrons of DB who hammered me until I burned to death. I was dead in first 3 minutes of match. That was so "fun and engaging" for me at the expense of some inbred [edited]grinding the US CV line for this inbred [edited]Carrier weekend event.

 

F carriers !!!

 

​Why are you crying? You think CVs are difficult to deal with in a DD which is tiny, quick, and maneuverable. See what it's like dealing with multiple squadrons of dive and torpedo bombers, playing the Yamato. Unlike your Shimakaze, which should have no problem dodging torps, trying to do the same in a Yamato, which is much bigger, maneuvers like a brick, and has less than stellar AA, can be an exercise in futility, especially if the CV captain drops his payloads right beside you.

 

Plus I don't have to get ambushed by the enemy CV to get his attention when I play my Yamato. Thanks to the Yamato sticking out like a sore thumb, and being one of the most popular targets for CV players, if CVs are in a match with you, you can guarantee to be attacked if you're at the helm of the Yamato. Now I'm not complaining about this situation like you are, because every time I've been sent to the bottom playing my Yamato from air attacks, it's been 90% my own stupid fault. Like many BB players, I get the tunnel vision bug, and end up doing the Yolo Solo, putting me in the perfect position, and pose to be violated by the enemy CV player's dive and torpedo bombers. If I was playing the Essex, and I saw a lone Yamato wandering around like an idiot, with no cruiser support, it's pretty obvious what I would do.

 

Based on your comment, it sounds like you suffer from tunnel vision syndrome too, which can be the only reason you can be ambushed by enemy aircraft in a Shimakaze. I also play DDs, and have the Gearing, which is bigger and slower than your Shimakaze, and I have no problem dodging torps and bombs, when I'm paying attention to the mini map, and see the enemy planes coming. like it or not, CVs are an important part of the game, and are needed, even though they can be a pain in the rear for non CV players, especially BB players.

 

Btw, just be glad as a Shimakaze player, BB players, especially Yamato players don't run WG, because if a class of ship were to be removed, it would be destroyers, especially your torp spamming little monster. As annoying as enemy planes are, being chased by a flame throwing Gearing, or torp spamming Shimakaze in a big, slow moving, slow turning battleship is even more frustrating. Does this mean I want destroyers removed from the game? Hell no, because I just got the Gearing, and am loving it, and am grinding the IJN DD line to acquire my own Shimakaze, and be that torp spamming little monster, that drives BB players crazy. 


Edited by champflyer, 27 May 2017 - 05:12 PM.





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