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Bayern needs a slight AP buff


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Marine_Diesel #1 Posted 30 April 2017 - 09:45 AM

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**Updated**
I(and other players) have noticed that Bayern's AP shells is somewhat lacking (at range) in the penetration department.
The 38cm SK L45 AP(APC L/3.5) shells had a CRH of 5. Warspite's 381mm AP shells had a CRH of 6.

However to put this into perspective:
APC Mark IIIa (4crh - Greenboy) and APC Mark Va (4crh - post World War I) were both 4crh. Bayern used 5crh shells.
The ingame penetration is slightly below what the technical pen data states. (Actually the ingame chart is very inline to Navyweaps pen data states. Just slightly off. Very noticeable further down the chart)

Also the 38cm SK L45 had an WW2 updated HE shell available:
Coastal HE L/5.4 (about 10crh) (Ingame, the Bayern only has the L/4.1 HE shell)

Notes
Hey, Bayern already has subpar dispersion but it's missing the 890 mps velocity.
"The original muzzle velocity was 2,920 fps (890 mps) but dispersion was unacceptable at this velocity." But I don't think that'd be necessary.

We have the L/4.1 HE shell ingame however:

Coastal HE L/5,4 was 10crh. The HE L/5,4 Projectile used a long, streamlined nose for maximum range. Burster for this projectile was split into two charges: Upper charge was 64.3 lbs. (29.15 kg) TNT and lower charge was 73.2 lbs. (33.21 kg) TNT. One of the HE L/5,4 projectiles is on display at the museum at Verdun, France. Muzzle Velocity: Coastal HE L/5,4: 2,625 fps (800 mps)

"The advantages of all-steel versus wire-wound guns have been the subject of discussion for a great many years, and opinions still differ as to which is better than the other from point of view of strength and ballistics ; more recently, however, it has been considered probable that the smaller droop and greater rigidity of the all-steel type may be a very important factor in effect on accuracy. The German gun is noticeably stiff in the region of the centre of gravity, making for small droop and whip ; this is undoubtedly a good point."

Source/Pen data from: http://www.navweaps....15-45_skc13.php

http://www.navweaps....R_15-42_mk1.php

Ingame Pen chart

 



Ingame 'Projectile Krupp' values:

 

Projectile krupp    2 657 - Fuso (tier 5 Kongo has same value)
Projectile krupp    2 604 - New York (tier 5)
Projectile krupp    2 545 - New Mexico
Projectile krupp    2 454 - Bayern
Projectile krupp    2 428 - Dunkerque

 

"But OP, you can at least citadel cruisers with ease"
Provided they don't overpen. Bayern 'Projectile detonator' time is .033 sec, which means when you 'get in close' you'll very likely overpen. And when you're too far away you won't pen at all.

Kongo's AP also has .033 detonator time. But Kongo's shells have less velocity.

 

"Extremely good shell ballistics" as described, yeah... right...


Based on the info above. The Bayern isn't being presented as an accurate ship as it technically was. Also, the ingame ballistics are evidently poor.

My solution is simple: Change the 'Drag constant' from .4092 to .3945 Basically just improve that value slightly. Also improve the 'projectile krupp' value to 2510. The shells won't lose quite as much velocity and they'll have better AP abilities. Change AP 'Projectile detonator' time to .03, so they'll more likely detonate on time.


Edited by Marine_Diesel, 03 May 2017 - 12:23 PM.


lron_Dog_of_Jutland #2 Posted 30 April 2017 - 09:53 AM

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A slight pen buff would be greatfully received!

Alternatively I would like to see a buff to the ROF. British post war testing revealed that her reload time was 23 seconds compared to about 36 on contemporary British ships.

So a reload of 20-26 sec would likely suffice even with the current poor pen.

Treediagram #3 Posted 30 April 2017 - 10:03 AM

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I would rather see Warspite getting buff than Bayern, since Bayern is already superior over Warspite in almost everything.

p.s. Treediagram: I named this after the mathematical one, not from To Aru series!

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Marine_Diesel #4 Posted 30 April 2017 - 10:07 AM

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View Postlron_Dog_of_Jutland, on 30 April 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

A slight pen buff would be greatfully received!

Alternatively I would like to see a buff to the ROF. British post war testing revealed that her reload time was 23 seconds compared to about 36 on contemporary British ships.

So a reload of 20-26 sec would likely suffice even with the current poor pen.


I can agree to that. Bayern would then be better at hunting cruisers.
But it has large guns and great armor for a tier 6 and hence should be able to compete with battleships. And so it still needs that slight bit better pen that the gun had.
I think the Warspite can keep the 30 sec reload time for gameplay purposes. Though I wouldn't care if Bayern got the same 26 sec reload that Gneisenau and Bismarck get respectively.
 



Marine_Diesel #5 Posted 30 April 2017 - 10:29 AM

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View PostTreediagram, on 30 April 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

I would rather see Warspite getting buff than Bayern, since Bayern is already superior over Warspite in almost everything.

 

I agree that Warspite is lacking in a couple areas. (Mostly the slow turret traverse) However,
Warspite has ~348mm of pen at 16km. Bayern has ~298mm of pen at 16km. (Interestingly, Kongo/Fuso has 352mm of pen at this distance)
At 14km, Warspite has 380mm of Pen, Bayern has 325mm of Pen.
So Bayern's AP shell needs that small 'drag constant' buff change. From .4092 to .4001 is still nothing compared to Warspite's .3415 value

Warspite just has slow turrets, slow shells, and is a slow(ish) ship.
Technically, Warspite had a 180 Degree Turn Time of 90 secs compared to the 72 secs we have ingame.

Warspite's ingame pen chart:

 


Edited by Marine_Diesel, 30 April 2017 - 10:51 AM.


lron_Dog_of_Jutland #6 Posted 30 April 2017 - 11:04 AM

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Bayern's guns are reported to be able to penetrate 336mm at 20km with her WW1 AP Shell according to some sources,

Navweaps lists 350mm at 12.5km and 265mm at 20km at a ROF of 2.5. On top there is a note supporting above claim: "there is evidence that the gun achieved 336mm of penetration at 20km against WW1 armour".

The low penetration and slow ROF are clearly artificial nerfs in the game.

I don't get it - WG created an ugly fantasy ship to slap on purely fictional long range AA but nerfs the actual strength of the ship into the ground. Disappointing.

 

EDIT: Your Pen curve with the reduced drag looks pretty spot on !! Nice :-)


Edited by lron_Dog_of_Jutland, 30 April 2017 - 11:47 AM.


Umikami #7 Posted 30 April 2017 - 12:22 PM

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this ship does not need any buffs

period



Bigsandwich #8 Posted 30 April 2017 - 04:06 PM

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How you doing against a North Carolina.This sucks....

Marine_Diesel #9 Posted 30 April 2017 - 11:06 PM

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View Postlron_Dog_of_Jutland, on 30 April 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

Bayern's guns are reported to be able to penetrate 336mm at 20km with her WW1 AP Shell according to some sources,

Navweaps lists 350mm at 12.5km and 265mm at 20km at a ROF of 2.5. On top there is a note supporting above claim: "there is evidence that the gun achieved 336mm of penetration at 20km against WW1 armour".

The low penetration and slow ROF are clearly artificial nerfs in the game.

I don't get it - WG created an ugly fantasy ship to slap on purely fictional long range AA but nerfs the actual strength of the ship into the ground. Disappointing.

 

EDIT: Your Pen curve with the reduced drag looks pretty spot on !! Nice :-)

 


Agreed. I'd rather have decent main guns than fictional 'buffed AA'.
Bayern getting a 26 sec reload(same as Gneisenau/Bismarck) and a small AP(Drag coefficient) buff isn't unreasonable. And it would benefit gameplay for the ship.
The charts I posted are the current ingame charts. I think you were looking at Warspite's chart.

"This ship does not need any buffs
period"
Here's one that understand ballistics. "Bayern has under-performing guns at range"
*The aerodynamic drag difference between Warspite's 38.1cm & Bayerns 38cm shell isn't as great as it is ingame*

Ingame: At 14km, Warspite has 380mm of Pen, Bayern has 325mm of Pen. Bayern needs to (at least) pen 350mm at 14km.
Period.

Captain_Benevolent_Fair #10 Posted 01 May 2017 - 01:17 AM

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I really don't think buffing the Bayern is a priority in any way. The ship is already amazing, and my favorite tier 6 battleship by far. Buffing the reload is just silly from a balance perspective. It's just fair that the biggest guns have the longest reloads. Plus, improving the penetration would give even more advantages that the Bayern has over the Warspite. Warspite selling point is big guns with good dispersion and penetration values, making her ideal for long range engagements, while the Bayern not only needs to, but also benefits from getting close and personal. Having less long range penetration values than it "should" is just a kind way of saying "Stop hugging the map border".

I loved this ship to death and never felt like it needed any buffs. It is good the way it is: a true brawler like all german battleships.

And just for the sake of the joke: Period.


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Warden_Wolf #11 Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:31 PM

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I'm fine with the guns' damage on the Bayern. I don't feel it needs a pen power increase. My issue is with its horrible accuracy and range. What it needs, in my opinion, is a slight sigma buff and a spotting plane with the B hull. The reason it doesn't have a spotting plane is because, historically, it was scuttled shortly after World War I. But every other battleship at tier 6 is a World War I ship, and they were all refitted to have one. Had it survived, there's no question it would have received one. The ship's inability to hit anything outside 10km is its greatest weakness, particularly considering the British considered its fire control and accuracy to be superior to their own when they evaluated it.

Edited by Warden_Wolf, 02 May 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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db4100 #12 Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:47 PM

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Bayern does not need any buffs.  You guys need to stop asking for the ships to all be the same with performance.  Take the strengths with the designed weaknesses.

lron_Dog_of_Jutland #13 Posted 02 May 2017 - 04:37 PM

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View PostWarden_Wolf, on 02 May 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm fine with the guns' damage on the Bayern. I don't feel it needs a pen power increase. My issue is with its horrible accuracy and range. What it needs, in my opinion, is a slight sigma buff and a spotting plane with the B hull. The reason it doesn't have a spotting plane is because, historically, it was scuttled shortly after World War I. But every other battleship at tier 6 is a World War I ship, and they were all refitted to have one. Had it survived, there's no question it would have received one. The ship's inability to hit anything outside 10km is its greatest weakness, particularly considering the British considered its fire control and accuracy to be superior to their own when they evaluated it.

 

The B Hull of the ship you see in the game has literally NOTHING to do with the actual Bayern. It is a 100% fictional boat how WG "thinks" how the ship would have been modernized.

 

That said, the reason why Bayern in game doesn't have a plane is that she's too small and doesn't offer the deck space needed. 

 

And please don't take this the wrong way but if you are missing the spotter plane you are using her the wrong way. She likes to get close and personal. What she could need though would be a slight pen buff or a more historical ROF than the artificial slow 30src reload.



Marine_Diesel #14 Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:51 AM

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View Postdb4100, on 02 May 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Bayern does not need any buffs.  You guys need to stop asking for the ships to all be the same with performance.  Take the strengths with the designed weaknesses.

 


(You're presenting a straw man argument) Ugh, I'm not calling for ships to be the same performance.
At 14km, Warspite has 380mm of Pen, Bayern has 325mm of Pen. Bayern getting a minor pen buff of 340-350mm at 14km. Is still weaker pen than Warspite.

Anyways, a plane is unnecessary. But then again, Bayern has good AA with those 105s. A plane isn't needed, wasn't in any technical plans, and the ship is too small for a plane.

As for the accuracy issue, I agree the Bayern is inaccurate. (Esp since there's only 8 guns!). But I mitigated it by skipping/not researching the last GFCS and mounting ASM1. If I have to stay at less than 15.1km, fine. But give it the pen to give it a fighting chance.
Giving the Bayern a minor pen buff would improve gameplay by making the ship sort of a nice 'universal' ship. Excellent at close range, okay at medium range. (Accuracy too bad to use at long range)

As per Navyweaps:
On top there is a note supporting above claim: "there is evidence that the gun achieved 336mm of penetration at 20km against WW1 armour".
For all we know the Germans probably created a "warmed over" 38cm L/3.7 shell for testing (Exactly like they did with the 28 cm/52 (11") SK C/28).

Edited by Marine_Diesel, 03 May 2017 - 05:18 AM.


Marine_Diesel #15 Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:05 AM

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View PostCaptain_Benevolent_Fair, on 01 May 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

Warspite selling point is big guns with good dispersion and penetration values, making her ideal for long range engagements, while the Bayern not only needs to, but also benefits from getting close and personal. Having less long range penetration values than it "should" is just a kind way of saying "Stop hugging the map border".

I loved this ship to death and never felt like it needed any buffs. It is good the way it is: a true brawler like all german battleships.

And just for the sake of the joke: Period.


So let it have garbage dispersion AND garbage pen because all battleship players hug the border. Stereotyping BB players isn't going to improve gameplay.
Battleships can't hang with destroyers..and most can't get much closer than cruisers. There's obvious reasons why.

The description says:
"She was distinguished for her powerful 380 mm main guns with extremely good shell ballistics and a rate of fire that was quite high among similar gun systems."
We'll ignore the last point and focus on the former. Bayern *evidently* DOES NOT have excellent ballistics ingame. Bayern doesn't need the best ballistics but it's certainly not 'excellent'.

Also a playstyle on ships can change. Example: Kongo plays differently than Fuso. The tier 5 Konig with 10 quick loading 30.5cm guns is an excellent cruiser killer. And can dish out the damage at battleships if need be. Why should the tier 6 Bayern with only 8 guns w/ 30 sec reload, play the same?
It sounds like you want all the ships on line of a certain nation to play the same...


Also Original Post updated!


Edited by Marine_Diesel, 03 May 2017 - 12:52 PM.





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