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British Cruisers and French Cruisers Over-penetration, Investigation and Results

ukcl frca overpenetration bugs feedback french british united kingdom cruisers

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Pigeon_of_War #1 Posted 19 April 2017 - 07:41 PM

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Hi everyone,

 

Now, players can often see that the “Over-penetration” ribbon is displayed, when a British cruiser hits a French cruiser (FRCA). That is a surprise for

players, as British AP shells cannot over-penetrate even destroyer armor. You can recall that their fuse arming takes a very little time.

 

Why that happens?

The thing is that FRCAs have specific design characteristics: a part of torpedo protection is rather high above the waterline, the armor belt on the torpedo bulge (from Tier VI) and a long distance from this belt to the citadel (see the attached screenshot).

 

If a British armor piercing shell hits the torpedo protection above the waterline, its fuse arms and explodes between the bulge and the citadel. It cannot reach the main armor and cannot deal any damage to the ship.

 

Displaying the “Over-penetration” ribbon isn’t correct. Correct ribbon should be “Penetration”, but also without dealing damage. We are planning to fix this issue.

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Goose21891 #2 Posted 19 April 2017 - 07:43 PM

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What screenshot?

 


Battleship_Dunkerque #3 Posted 19 April 2017 - 07:50 PM

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View PostPigeon_of_War, on 19 April 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

Displaying the “Over-penetration” ribbon isn’t correct. Correct ribbon should be “Penetration”, but also without dealing damage. We are planning to fix this issue.

Not sure that is the best choice - I foresee lots of salt about "How can I have a pen for 0 damage?"  Maybe use the 'under-pen' ribbon or shatter or whatever it is called.  Call it a 'partial penetration'.  Still not sure that's the best way but I think it'd be better than just a 'pen' for no damage.



Macabe #4 Posted 19 April 2017 - 07:53 PM

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Perhaps a non-critical penetration ribbon is needed? And while we're at it: A MODULE PEN RIBBON(no damage pens are annoying).

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Edgecase #5 Posted 19 April 2017 - 08:28 PM

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View PostMacabe, on 19 April 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Perhaps a non-critical penetration ribbon is needed? And while we're at it: A MODULE PEN RIBBON(no damage pens are annoying).

 

I agree that no damage pens are annoying, but instead question whether they should, in fact, be considered damaging instead (at least for scoring purposes, if not actual HP).

Lert #6 Posted 19 April 2017 - 08:35 PM

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It is my belief that they should be counted as damaging hits.

(Above stats not guaranteed accurate. I'm a supertester and test ships don't always register correctly)

 

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TenguBlade #7 Posted 19 April 2017 - 08:39 PM

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View PostPigeon_of_War, on 19 April 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

Displaying the “Over-penetration” ribbon isn’t correct. Correct ribbon should be “Penetration”, but also without dealing damage. We are planning to fix this issue.

Shouldn't it be non-penetration, if only for consistency's sake?  If I pierce the torpedo bulge of an Iowa or Missouri and the shells are stopped by the main belt, currently it shows as non-pen.

 

IMO the ribbon hit system needs to count everything that does not deal damage, whether it's to modules or to the hull, as a non-pen.  Adding a separate module hit ribbon would be nice, but by hard-coding this condition in, you would bring players to the conclusion that they damaged a module if they get 0 damage but a penetration ribbon.


Edited by TenguBlade, 19 April 2017 - 08:40 PM.

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mofton #8 Posted 19 April 2017 - 08:50 PM

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I've definitely had overpenetrations with Brit CL's before, usually hitting the uppermost and lightest parts of superstructures. 

 

The whole hit ribbon system is pretty flawed, my first 2 hits with a Warspite last night were 'Overpens' for a total of 6,000 damage or so.

 

I appreciate you're trying to improve the system but it could do with some other changes.

 

 

Also, in game when you hover mouse over the hit ribbon it gives you a breakdown of pens/bounce/shatter/overpen - any chance of applying the same to the aircraft shot down emblem so you can see what types you've downed? 


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MajorRenegade #9 Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:14 PM

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I least I learn this before I hop back into Wows to play. Thanks for the head up

          
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mmfullen #10 Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View PostLert, on 19 April 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

It is my belief that they should be counted as damaging hits.

 

Possible reduced damage over pen? Like when a torp hits the torpedo protection, it's just reducing the damage. 

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TL_Warlord_Roff #11 Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

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Are the ribbons needed?  I think only if your into the book keeping.  As long as the game tracks it honestly (and its all done server side NOT client side) its a bit of a non issue.   If you understand whats going on with the game mechanics.  The over pen no damage, pen no damage on the french cruisers is NOT a surprise to me.. I noted the particularities of their armor lay out on the test server  Saw this one coming!  Dev's told ya they'd be a bit different.  It's that sneaky French non armor armor!  Of course it works the same way as torpedo protection that works... by providing a void where the detonation of a round is just not going to particularly damage anything important..assuming the ships been built with that sort of armoring in mind which the French cruisers are!   Also note on the armor that where you really want to put your rounds right under the turrets if you only want to deal with a single armor layer.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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GhostSwordsman #12 Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:41 PM

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View Postmofton, on 19 April 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

I've definitely had overpenetrations with Brit CL's before, usually hitting the uppermost and lightest parts of superstructures. 

 

The whole hit ribbon system is pretty flawed, my first 2 hits with a Warspite last night were 'Overpens' for a total of 6,000 damage or so.

 

I appreciate you're trying to improve the system but it could do with some other changes.

 

 

Also, in game when you hover mouse over the hit ribbon it gives you a breakdown of pens/bounce/shatter/overpen - any chance of applying the same to the aircraft shot down emblem so you can see what types you've downed? 

 

That's actually caused by the shell penetrating twice, on two different pieces of armor.

 

I had something similar happen a while back when I decided to take my Amagi out for a quick spin. Put up the spotter and took a pot shot at an enemy cruiser. Two over-pens for 10k. Consensus was the shells over-penned the outer plating, then penned some kind of internal armor before detonating inside giving a 33%. The damage total added up to 2 over-pens + 2 regular pens.

 

Here's the thread I started asking about it, as it confused me as to why I did that much damage from just over-pens. http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1


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Kombat_W0MBAT #13 Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:17 PM

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I honestly think the torpedo bulge should only be able to "absorb" a certain amount of damage before those overpens/pens start eating into the health of the ship.

 

Just as an example, each bulge could get 10k HP that is not linked to the ship's total health. Once that 10k is depleted, then that citadel is free game.

 

It's a thought...



Pugilistic #14 Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:20 PM

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View PostLert, on 19 April 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

It is my belief that they should be counted as damaging hits.

 

​Assuming that you mean even when they produce zero damage on the scoring, subtlety of though won't make you popular lol.

 

Oh, wait-  it would produce a hit ribbon and count, say, for cap defense, correct?


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StuntMan9630 #15 Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:00 AM

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Glad to hear an official response to this. I figured it was intended, but it's still a very interesting mechanic that can look very suspicious (0 Damage HE vs Emile Bertin with 406mm guns was a shocker).

 

On a separate note though, is this 'spaced-armour' a trait that IRL French Cruisers had? I'm genuinely curious, since this a very different approach to any other design we've seen in-game before (Hence why I tested it out thoroughly).



Scout1 #16 Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:23 AM

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View PostGhostSwordsman, on 19 April 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

 

That's actually caused by the shell penetrating twice, on two different pieces of armor.

 

I had something similar happen a while back when I decided to take my Amagi out for a quick spin. Put up the spotter and took a pot shot at an enemy cruiser. Two over-pens for 10k. Consensus was the shells over-penned the outer plating, then penned some kind of internal armor before detonating inside giving a 33%. The damage total added up to 2 over-pens + 2 regular pens.

 

Here's the thread I started asking about it, as it confused me as to why I did that much damage from just over-pens. http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

 

You overpenned then hit magazines (but without dealing enough damage to cause a detonation). Magazine hits will deal full penetration damage regardless of whatever other modules or sections were registered damage.

 

Consider it a feature, I suppose...



Zampy #17 Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:52 AM

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Why wouldn't these deal damage in that space?  At the very least, it's still exploding inside a contained area that would magnify and focus an explosive blast.  This shouldn't be dealing 0 damage, but possibly act more like an air burst small HE shell with shrapnel and spalling.

GhostSwordsman #18 Posted 20 April 2017 - 02:36 AM

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View PostScout1, on 19 April 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

 

You overpenned then hit magazines (but without dealing enough damage to cause a detonation). Magazine hits will deal full penetration damage regardless of whatever other modules or sections were registered damage.

 

Consider it a feature, I suppose...

 

The shells struck nowhere near the mags though.

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Scout1 #19 Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:24 AM

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View PostGhostSwordsman, on 19 April 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

 

The shells struck nowhere near the mags though.

 

Keep in mind that the visual of shell arcs and impacts are just splines grafted onto what the server is telling your client. You can do all sorts of weird damages in a single shell (133%, 43%, various combos with saturated sections, etc...) as long as you hit magazines.

amade #20 Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:46 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 20 April 2017 - 04:39 AM, said:

Shouldn't it be non-penetration, if only for consistency's sake?  If I pierce the torpedo bulge of an Iowa or Missouri and the shells are stopped by the main belt, currently it shows as non-pen.

 

IMO the ribbon hit system needs to count everything that does not deal damage, whether it's to modules or to the hull, as a non-pen.  Adding a separate module hit ribbon would be nice, but by hard-coding this condition in, you would bring players to the conclusion that they damaged a module if they get 0 damage but a penetration ribbon.

 

^ It should be this. It didn't pen the areas that can be inflicted damage, so it should be considered a non-penetration (despite penetrating the bulges).
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